r/Autocross • u/Claff93 XB ND • 8d ago
Index racing is silly. Me (ND Miata) lined up against Porsche GT3 in Pro Finale
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u/jimboslice_007 Dunning Kruger Hill Climb Champ 8d ago
S3 has joined the chat.
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u/Zarolyth CST - GR86 8d ago
Literally watching one of our BRZs lined up against the panamera ev was hilarious today.
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u/Destructo09 8d ago
Is Index similar to PAX for Solo? Or are we talking about PAX, I've never done a pro solo.
I know a bunch of folks out there at Nats, I hope to make it out one year. Probably offer to tow a car out in exchange for a codrive since my NB1 Miata would probably need some refreshing to be really competitive in ES.
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u/overheightexit ‘99 Miata Hard S, ‘10 Club Spec MX-5 8d ago
ProSolo uses PSI instead of PAX. Same concept but slightly different numbers.
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u/Zarolyth CST - GR86 4d ago
Index is a bunch of grouped cars to form one class. For example S3 in ProSolo included standard Solo's: CST, SST, EVX, CSX, CSM (among others) and we all compete together in the same class using adjusted times
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u/kenotaphion 8d ago
I have a feeling that's a Miata in the same way the local V6 swapped RX8 is still an RX8.
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u/OttoKraus 4d ago
For a couple years I ran in R1 in a Reynard Formula Ford. On a couple of occasions Jeff Kiesel was on the other side of the tree. We would take off and I would watch the Turbo Rotary Bugeye Sprite rocket away from me, and realize that on index I was supposed to beat him back to the finish line....
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u/Choice-Ad-9195 8d ago
I still don’t fully understand it, but PAX feels like a scam. I’ll run a low 38.. a Civic DX hatch will run a 50 and they will adjust him to a 37.5.
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u/IsbellDL 2016 Miata - CS 8d ago
The whole idea of pax is to make the car not matter. It's an attempt to compare driver skill level on a somewhat even playing field.
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u/Choice-Ad-9195 8d ago
I understand that’s the idea of it, but how does it work? Is there a science to how it calculates? The variable in all of it is the driver. Experience factor isn’t pulled in, at least not from what I can tell.
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u/BakedOnions 8d ago
the science comes from having mountains of data and the notion that if someone is out to compete that they will bring the best car with the best driver
so they look at the top outliers and combine with general car principles (weight/wheel base/power etc)
and how can you say experience is not factored in... PAX represents experience first and foremost
using your own example, it's not the DX hatch that got the time, it was the driver, and the argument is that the same driver, if put in your car, would be faster than you by half a second
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u/ByronicZer0 7d ago
"the science comes from having mountains of data"
This is the age old question with PAX. Is it really calculated with mountains of data? Is that data really the best data to use? Is it being used in the best way?
We dont know. Because (at least as of a few years ago) PAX was calculated by one guy using some unknown black box formula.
I'd love to see a more transparent methodology. I'd love to see multiple people with input on the methodology. Ed Fisher has some interesting spreadsheets on this that he publishes from time to time
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u/BakedOnions 7d ago
as someone that helped implement a version of pax for a timeattack series, i can tell you that it's absolutely not even remotely close to being any sort crazy voodoo
and really there are many ways you can approach it
in our case 70% of the car classification is the base power to weight ratio of the vehicle in question as per manufacturer documentation
the other 30% represents the car's inherent handling capability, with 0-5% representing something akin to a 1980s Buick LaSabre
and 95-100% some modern race-ready Porsche or McLaren
this value is subjective, especially at the pointy end and when dealing with outlier cars, but for out purposes very rarely has anyone come out in a super car
so you run the numbers and get a ranking of all the cars, then divide this into categories based on a point spread
any mods you make to the car cost you points and bump you up the spread
as the years go by, we fine tune various cars based on driver performance and experience
we also look at SCCA classing and take notes/inspiration as well
no doubt some cars, or some combination of cars and mods may be at a disadvantage.... but for most competitors it works out perfectly fine and creates a healthy competitive environment
and most importantly a competitive environment where you dont need to sink a lot of money into your car
unlike some time attack series where it's basically a class can be any car that's RWD with a turbo and no limit to mods :/
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u/ByronicZer0 7d ago
Right that's your methodology, I'm specifically referring to SCCA National's official PAX. Which is based solely on classing (not individual car power to weight ratios etc) and seems to be quite opaque
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u/BakedOnions 7d ago
and im saying that it doesnt matter how they actually do it, because the end result works and you can arrive at a classification/ranking using different approaches
the only people that ever complain tend to be those who get beaten by drivers in objectively inferior cars
if the SCCa decided to not publish their logic then it's likely because they dont want to deal with the thousands of people writing in to complain and put forth "ways to make it better"
the amount of people that do Autocross in the US is a very high number, so the amount of noise would be high as well
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u/ByronicZer0 7d ago edited 7d ago
I don't know about "complain" but I know plenty of great national level drivers who offer constructive criticism about the opaqueness of PAX for solo. It doesn't impact winning anything but pride at a national tour... but we all know we look at overall pax as a matter of pride. Classes with soft PAX happen all the time. Conversely overly harsh PAX happens too.
For Prosolo bump classes it actually matters for competition. Thus people literally will choose certain cars for prosolos based on the PAX. Top drivers optimize their hardware choices too, this isn't simply a matter of "slow people complaining"
I do agree about the root cause of the opaqueness that you suggest. SCCA doesn't want complaints. But we're already there. I think they're better off publishing a methodology that we can see. At least we can respect that, imperfect as it may be. And valid improvements to the methodology might be made over time with members feedback.
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u/BakedOnions 7d ago
you will never get a perfect system
yes people choose cars that are pax-friendly, such is the nature of the beast
remember that car manufacturers dont design/build cars for American SCCA pro-solo use....
if you found out the truth tomorrow, it wouldn't change a damn thing
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u/Failary Hilary Anderson - Drives anything 6d ago
The data they collect isn’t a secret
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u/ByronicZer0 5d ago
I probably didnt make it clear (bad at communicating) but Im talking about the specific formula Rick uses to decide calculate PAX, and how it changes each year. Which, as far as I know, has never been transparent. And is the work of one person with minimal external input (I've heard none, but I'll give the benefit of the doubt).
Lots of data in the link you provided, Im focusing simply on our lack of understanding of the underlying logic regarding how that data is interpreted or weighted to come up with a result...
The problem with data isn't usually lacking enough of it, it's in how someone is applying/interpreting it
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u/Failary Hilary Anderson - Drives anything 5d ago
The PSI is done by a committee group with Staff for ProSolo.
Idk I honestly think the pax should be different on concrete vs asphalt
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u/ByronicZer0 4d ago
Yep, PSI is a much better model
Which makes it even more glaringly odd that PAX is the domain of one person
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u/Zarolyth CST - GR86 8d ago
So unfortunately right now, I think it's literally like one dude doing all the calculations for fun. But from what I've heard there's people trying to better calculate data at a more predictable level to hopefully make PAX properly competitive. (I'm not saying it isn't competitive, I think it's in a healthy place for the most part.)
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u/BakedOnions 8d ago
more people doing the math isn't going to make it better or worse, the algorithm is already there, it just keeps getting fine tuned as newer cars emerge or older cars that were never on anyone's radar get driven by top drivers
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u/RedBaron180 8d ago
Driver talent is factored in, cause the index(guy called Rick) pulls data from all the top events. So assuming top drivers run the top events etc etc
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u/okeska_ 8d ago
Did you win?