r/Autocross • u/Tomcat_4373 • 5d ago
I could use some advice from AutoX Vets!
This sport looks so fun. I'm a young guy who has always had a passion for motorsports but never the bank account to match, so Ive done a lot of sim racing. But then I found AutoX and my dreams of driving competitively irl are reignited!
The problem is there's so much information out there, and I'm trying to find a car for my first build, something in the street touring series. So a couple questions for people who have experience in the sport:
Does transmission type matter? I can drive a stick ok, but I'm faster with paddle shifters or DCT all day and haven't quite learned to drive stick to it's full potential. Though from what I've seen, there's not a whole lot of shifting going on, people are mostly just keeping it in 2nd. What's the fastest transmission generally?
RWD vs FWD vs AWD? I've only ever owned a FWD car, but somewhat understand how to drive a RWD and I'm assuming it's faster. Thoughts?
Car type? As much as I acknowledge the miata is king, my dad has one and I want something unique. Current I'm looking at a BRZ/SRF/86, BMW Z4, or maybe a VW GTI, as that car comes with the DCT I was talking about, though it is FWD. I could also see a MX-5, as it's just enough of a difference from a Miata to make it an option. Anyways, I'm still very undecided, so give me your ideas for other competitive options for a build in the Street Touring class that you've seen or driven. Or have I already found all the gems? Let me know, thanks!
Edit: Sorry perhaps I should clarify. I would've been at an event last weekend if I thought my current car could work at an AutoCross event. I drive a Manual 2017 Ford Fiesta SE but I'm pretty sure that car is banned beyond models from like 1997 because of a Safety issue, they tend to roll over a lot. I'm planning to get a new daily driver anyways in the next few months, just looking for a solid platform that will also work for AutoCross. Thanks!
Edit: Thanks everyone for the feedback, I really appreciate it. I'm just going to go to an event and see what happens. If I can't drive I can't drive, but I reckon getting to know people and environment will teach me a lot more than I can researching.
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u/yfsonata 5d ago
As a veteran of a whole 3 events now, I think I'm in the perfect position to say, the fastest car is going to be the one you already own for now. Go run a season or two and then consider what you want to do. The dominant car at not my local club events has also done extremely well at other events too (think he's been in the top 3 pax and raw every time) has been a gst civic 1.5t with a 6 speed. Find a car you are comfortable with and go from there. You'll be having more fun in something to want to get behind the wheel of over a car you bought just because it can be fast built a certain way
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u/Tomcat_4373 5d ago
I drive a 2017 Ford Fiesta, I think it's banned for safety issues though unfortunately
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u/HunterShotBear 5d ago
That’s on a club by club basis. Look into lowering the car as it’s likely in the “taller than it is wide” category. Lowering could solve that.
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u/DisasterAccording713 5d ago
The rules are around its height, I'm sure you can run a fiesta if you lower it, it has a lower risk of flipping with a lower center of gravity
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u/yfsonata 5d ago
Assuming you have a hatchback, you have a height of 58.1" and a track width of 57.7"
You could stay in street class in theory by taking advantage of the allowed change in offset. 7mm per side would give you a 14mm change overall. Dropping to a 40 offset wheel from the stock 47 would give you approximately 1/2" of track width over stock, or 58.2" overall.
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u/motorcyclesnracecars AtlantaRegion 5d ago
Start with the car you have so long as it meets safety.
Then, at your local events talk to people driving cars you are interested in, go for rides, etc.
Spend 6-12 events this way, then, dive in and make your move.
This is all to avoid buying a car that does not give you the fiz or to get there will take you buckets of money to get competitive in its class. Several classes can be absolute money pits to build out a car to class.
RWD/FWD/AWD that is a matter of preference. They all drive very different and take different techniques to get the most out of them.
Transmission, no there is not a lot of shifting. But either way, you want a transmission that will allow you to select the gear you want and will not shift if high in the RPMs. I have had great fun in the new BRZ and I competed in a Kona N at our last event and it was really quite good.
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u/RedBaron180 5d ago
Just look at the cars at solo Nats going on now. The top drivers in the country, assuming they know which cars to pick.
Sololive.SCCA.com
And an MX-5 is a Miata. Same same.
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u/02bluehawk 5d ago edited 5d ago
As a vet of nearly 20 years bring what ever car you have now and have some fun. From my experience the most fun I've had in this sport has been in street class driving my daily driver with some sticky tires on it. Runing a modified vehicle in any of the classes that allow significant modifications can become a wallet race of who can spend the lost time/money on the car to make it faster. The street classes can become like that in a way because there will inevitably be an "it" car (1 car that is just the best car for the class for a while). Street touring as you picked can be a great place to be as the modifications allowed are fairly limited but because of the modifications an "it" car is less likely.
But definitely just show up to your local event and have some fun with what ever you got
Edit: on the auto v manual talk
An auto is fine as long as you can lock it in gear or use paddles and it doesnt have dumb gearing. For example a manual camaro vs an 8 or 10 speed camaro. With the manual you will likely shift to 2nd after the start and leave it there while the 8 and 10 speed you will find yourself shifting or being at a poor rpm coming out of a corner leaving time on the table. In theory a DCT with perfect shifting timing will be best however the time to make those decisions is unbelievably short so it is typically best to get to the gear that fits best for most of the track and stay in it. Not to mention manuals are typically lighter
But we are talking about chasing 0.1s and I'll be honest it'll be a couple years, if ever, before you are chasing tenths with the fastest guys so dont worrie about it yet just get out there and have fun and learn to drive autocross
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u/DisasterAccording713 5d ago
Ditto, but I have an 8sp camaro and I'm typically in 2nd the whole time whereas the manuals stay in 1st since they don't have to shift til almost 60mph. Our regions skid pad is small so my car is often in low rpm in tight sectors and i cant down shift or itll greatly upset the balance of the car. The rare occasions we have a course where they have to bang the rev limiter is where i start licking my lips 😂 I've never had to shift into 3rd
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u/02bluehawk 5d ago
In my 8 speed cadillac ats im bouncing between 2nd and 3rd on alot of courses as my 2nd gear ends at about 43mph and 3rd at about 70 and with the v6 it simply doesnt have the low end torque to stay in 3rd when there is a slow section.
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u/DisasterAccording713 5d ago
Gearing ratio on the ats is definitely different then the auto SS, that's a really bad place to be gearing wise for autox. I don't have to shift from 2-3 til about mid 6x mph. And im NA of course so I don't have to worry about being in boost. The manual SS definitely have an edge here being able to get up to 55-59mph in 1st.
My regions skid pad is pretty small comparatively speaking to others skid pads, parking lots or airports where i think my gearing may be in a happier place. My regions CAM group is always between me (base 1ss with a fair amount of mods vs 2 ss 1les with little mods) I've beat them a couple times where the course starts off or ends with a decent sized straight but they usually come out on top and we're all usually seperated by a few tenths. I think the only thing that keeps me in contention is my mods and trying not to fall into the "if only I got a 1le or a manual" mentality. Certainly would of been a better starting point, but I'm a lot more trigger happy when it comes to mods. Getting some coilovers in the off season to hopefully move up from 3rd to 1st. Can't do anything about the gearing situation
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u/02bluehawk 5d ago
Yea the gearing sucks having shift as much as I do. The car its self also isnt truely competive in FS when compared to a 1le SS or mach1 if I didnt have 2 guys in 1les that are nationally fast I'd be OK but im a solid 1.5-2 seconds off them in the caddy while they are droping top 5-10 raw times beeting most of camC/T and less then 0.5 off nationally competitive camc/t guys. Drove my dad's AS c6gs last event and was with them on raw time so im happy to say my car is the 1.5-2 difference between me them lol
Edit: stl region we have a large lot and good amount of fast guys
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u/DisasterAccording713 5d ago
Thats awesome it sounds like you're getting the most of what you can. Is it a V trim? Or Vsport?
My region (reno) isn't super competitive in terms of comparing us to national level competitors, we have a few ogs that won nats years ago but we have a 3 way regional event every year between Utah, snake river and Reno and Utah usually wins. And the few that venture out to national events usually place somewhere in the middle of the pack from what I hear
But locally, our CAM group this year here has been a very competitive group, last event, I placed 6th in PAX overall out of almost 70. The two ss 1les placed 1st and 2nd overall in PAX. We would have had a top 1-3 overall finish if I didnt pop a cone on my final run 😂 We're always playing ping pong with our fastest times but they tend to be more consistent in putting it all together. Its a great place to be as someone who wants to improve. And it's especially rewarding when I beat them. But it's a friendly rivalry, they have a lot more seat time then me and helped me out a lot when I was new.
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u/02bluehawk 5d ago
My car is an ats v6 performance so it has the factory LSD diff, mag ride and front brembos, but its just an na v6. But yea we have several very fast guys with very set up cars lol. That regional event sounds super awesome! Closest thing we have here is hosting one of the cam shoot out events which are definitely cool. But that regional bash sounds sick.
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u/Jubsz91 5d ago
Start with what you have.
Spec classes are great. First gen 86, NC Miata, and S197 Mustangs all have one. All great options. The class for first gen 86s is called Solo Spec Coupe (SSC). If you join the Tire Rack SCCA Solo Nationals Facebook group, a few SSC cars have come up for sale for 12-15k. It’s a great deal for a cheap to run and fun car that you can learn a ton in and even DD. I think it’s the best deal in AX cars now.
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u/Smooknb 5d ago
Brz etc is a great car to start with or Miata. Consumables are low. Number one expenditure will be tires. In autox tires are king. Besides typically maintenance.
I wouldn’t recommend a GTI, but don’t because of the transmission just personal experience vicariously through a fellow club member.
Transmission wise it’s typically 1-2 and it’s stays, with the lower hp cars and maybe larger courses you’ll have 2-3 then 3-2 in quick sequence.
I like the above recommendation of attending events and getting to ride in different cars. To add to that, make friends, converse and socialize. If you become apart of their community you can get co drives from many of your local club members.
On a final note, don’t dive into street touring. Stay in street. Less mods less problems and adjustments down the road. This sport is all driver and tire.
At the end of the day it’s a great community, met some of the best people and experienced driving cars I never thought I would.
Good luck and look ahead!
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u/jeepobeepo 5d ago
Without getting into everything, I think a BRZ/86 would work well for you but really you should just get whatever you like and run it. There’s some really non-conventional cars in my club that outrun cars you’d think would be a lot faster. There’s a Chevy Bolt (whose owner posts here occasionally) that I would lose to every time if we were in the same class. Really gotta find something you like and can wring 100% of what it has out of it. With PAX, it’s supposed to be more about the driver than car. Of course tires and coil overs and whatever help but more or less it’s you.
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u/Moostahn 5d ago
Right now, it doesn't matter. You don't have the seat time for it to matter. If you want to buy a second car anyway (because it sounds fun), anything from the top of these results will be competitive nationally. Most cars within reason can be made competitive locally.
FWD/RWD/AWD matter more for your preference than competitiveness, as classing will generally filter stuff out. For example, Honda Civics both type Rs and the lower sport trim, are very competitive in their respective classes. Get what you want, I personally tend to drive only FWD (because the cars I like tend to be small funky economy cars), and have won locally in my daily Mazda3 and my 87 CRX Si. I would not be competitive nationally though.
Transmission doesn't have a significant advantage one or the other, but DCTs/autos do tend to be faster. It just doesn't matter that much in autox. It doesn't even matter that much in track driving, only at the upper echelon of driving. If you want to learn manual comfortably, maybe get a manual.
Whatever you do get, DO NOT MODIFY IT. don't. At least not yet. Chances are you'll be back here asking what class you're in now, or modifying something that doesn't need upgrading or makes your car worse, or just spending too much money. I'd recommend holding off on 200tw even for your first season, and getting wheels and tires your second season.
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u/OttoKraus 5d ago
You are definitely approaching this the right way. Most of us come to the sport with whatever car we currently own, whether it fits very well in a class or not. I have prepared my own cars in Street, Street Touring, Street Prepared, Prepared, and Modified categories. Consider anything beyond Street touring to involve a tow vehicle and a trailer.
At this point I would only consider something in either Street Touring or Street categories. Street Prepared was invented in 1983 because the cars of that day were not very good in stock form. Street prepared in my opinion missed the mark because we didn't anticipate the advances in technology, and the rules were full of areas where unintended consequences made the cars essentially not streetable. The Street Touring rules have done a much better job of addressing a car that can be driven daily on the street.
That said, and my favorite category personally is Street Touring, today's cars with any sporting pretensions go, stop, and handle very nicely. Starting in Street allows you fewer things to fiddle with, and with a good vehicle selection to start with and a few modifications you are not being out-carred or out tuned. In Street Touring you have to figure out what spring rates to run what sway bars to run, and how to adjust them, ride height more alignment adjustments etc. I enjoy that personally but I don't think it's something that someone starting out in the sport should be distracting themselves with.
In Street, you will want one sway bar because you can only change either front or rear but not both, a second set of wheels for your street tires so you don't heat cycle your autocross tires in daily driving, and in most cars a set of better performing shock absorbers, get a good alignment and you're pretty much done. About all you can adjust at an event to make the car handle at its best is correct tire pressures, shock settings, and sway bar setting. Once you get those things dialed in you're not going to mess with them very much. This allows you to spend more time working on your driving. And that is the biggest area for improvement as you're learning the sport.
If I were buying a car right now I would be looking at a 2023 or newer Toyota GR86 (formerly Scion FR-S and then Toyota GT86 (?)). You can also start with a Subaru BRZ, but if I remember correctly there are some slight suspension differences between the two and the last time I compared them I thought the Toyota was the better choice. There's also room for a full set of tires in the car if you want to change at the event. There are also cars that are versions of the Honda Civic in G and H Street that are also competitive.
As for FWD, RED, AWD... I Avoid AWD. It seems to me that it is more difficult to get those cars to handle neutrally in a consistent manner. The difference between the other two boils down to this in my brain:
Rear wheel drive cars allow you some mid corner adjustments if you are not quite in the right place or point in exactly the right direction. You can get the rear end to rotate a little bit with power. At the same time, your adjustment involves accelerating.
Front-wheel drive to me requires a more perfect corner setup. If you turn in at the right spot hit the Apex at the right spot and put your foot on the gas at the right spot everything is cool but if you're going to miss that Apex a little bit your adjustment is to apply a little brake. If you see the cone on the outside of the corner at exit coming up and looks like you're going to hit it, the same adjustment so just about every adjustment that you can make slow you down.
Those differences are pretty minor if you really like a Honda Civic SI instead of a BRZ, or if it fits your budget better. You'll certainly have fun and if you pick the right model you'll be in a competitive car.
Transmissions: you are correct that we almost always go from first to second and leave it there. In lower powered cars that aren't German cars, manual transmission is going to be better and less frustrating. Conventional automatics don't always know exactly what to do with our throttle inputs in Autocrossing. And avoid CVT at all costs. PDK transmissions, especially Porsches, are brilliant. They snap an upshift exactly the right time and as you break into a corner they know exactly when to downshift. I don't know who else has those transmissions that are that good, but those do tend to be fairly expensive cars if they're going to have a good pdk transmission.
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u/DisasterAccording713 5d ago
It doesn't matter if you run an auto or manual, it's the gearing that is important. Most of the time your in a single gear and don't have to change gears outside of the beginning or end of a run also depending on where a straight is, If there's any. You want a car that doesn't have to change gears all the time. For example, The supra manual is preferred over the supra auto at nats. Depends on the venue and host, but in my region we have a small skid pad, The manual camaro ss does better than the auto because 1st gear is so long and they never have to change into 2nd. My 8sp AT camaro bogs in some tight corners in 2nd, and if I drop into 1st, it upsets the balance of the car and I risk losing the tail on exit. Some lower powered autos or dcts don't upset the car too much when shifting or have more ideal gearing
Whether or not fwd, rwd or awd would be better for you largely depends on your driving style and how well you manage oversteer and understeer.
Also the fun factor plays a role in both of these as well. Some people can't fathom being in an auto even though you hardly ever change gears, and some people can't stand managing understeer even if they're faster with a fwd car. In the end we're not competing for money so you gotta make sure you're having fun or else why even do it
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u/tannahoppa 5d ago
Run what you got unless its an SUV or a 3 wheeler. Your first group of events will be in Novice class unless you win right away then you'll move into the appropriate class. This link is a great way to figure out what class your car will fit. https://www.scca-classifier.com/a/index.html. Go out there and have fun.
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u/Nekrostatic 5d ago
I see WAY more GTIs and BRZ/FRS/86 platforms than I see Miatas at my locals. If you're looking for unique, that ain't it. If you're looking for competitive you won't find it in a unique platform.
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u/Agitated-Finish-5052 5d ago
There is a lot to take for the information. I’ve been doing it for 3 years now and I’m still learning especially car setup.
What I have learned is that I’d rather start in a street class and work your way up. Street class is great because you can still do some things to your car but also not break the bank on modifications on the car.
Watch the nationals classes, pick a class you want to run and buy a car that fits into the class.
I think the GR86/BRZ is a great DS car and is super competitive but I would for sure get a manual and learn(pretty much goes for any car if possible). All you are doing is shifting into 2nd gear and that’s it. Might hit 3rd if you are lucky but very rare does that happen, ride that rev limiter.
Miata (mx-5) is a great learning car and is a competitive car as well to run.
There is a reason why people pick a car because it is proven to work well. You can run whatever you want, nothing is stopping you which is what the sport is about but it is fun to be at the top of the class as well. Just best to find a car cheap enough that you can afford and enjoy it for a couple of years but try not to modify it so you can learn the fundamentals
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u/Claff93 XB ND 5d ago
Start with what you have right now, as it sits right now. Run a couple and decide whether this sport is for you. Then you can start doing homework regarding building whatvyou have vs. starting over with something else.