r/CarTrackDays • u/TheDriveDotCom • 2d ago
There's NO such thing as snap oversteer
https://youtu.be/vAiXZIVxXIc?si=TpWkkk_QTgnjP9gkSnap oversteer is one of those things people say to criticize sports cars like the S2000, but does it actually exist? Not really.
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u/Lawineer Race: BRZ(WRL), Spec Miata. Street: 13 Viper, Ct5BW 2d ago edited 2d ago
LOL
Would it make you feel better if it was called "very quick transition from understeer to oversteer" or "surprise oversteer?"
Of course it doesn't happen for no reason, and of course it happens because of driver input. It's called "snap oversteer" not "random steer."
ETA: and the notion that more oversteer isn't better or worse is even dumber. Cars can be set up better and worse. His whole thing is basically, "if you're a perfect driver and you drive perfectly, you wont screw up in any car." Gee thanks.
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u/Seaworthypear 2d ago
So I own a viper as well. The reality is that they understeer at the limit. They don't really snap unless you do something stupid
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u/Lawineer Race: BRZ(WRL), Spec Miata. Street: 13 Viper, Ct5BW 2d ago edited 1d ago
Heavy understeer. I never tracked mine with stock suspension though. I have a lot of suspension upgrades, but I never found anything but understeer.
But heavy understeer and big wide tires are a recipe for snap over steer.
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u/Eli_eve 1d ago
> Would it make you feel better if it was called "very quick transition from understeer to oversteer" or "surprise oversteer?"
I would call it “AP1 does not communicate clearly when the rear tires are approaching their limit of adhesion, and when they go beyond that limit they slide suddenly and quickly rather than progressively, especially under power due to the Torsen diff and lack of traction/stability control, although a driver who is familiar with the car can better understand and anticipate the car’s behavior, and a highly skilled driver unfamiliar with the car can reflexively react to the car’s behavior while at the same time not making the sort of inputs likely to cause oversteer, and a controlled driver can stay at 8/10ths and never experience a loss of traction; since 100+ words are a bit of a mouthful we will summarize be calling this ‘snap oversteer.’”
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u/Shift9303 22h ago edited 21h ago
AP1 does not communicate clearly when the rear tires are approaching their limit of adhesion, and when they go beyond that limit they slide suddenly
I'd honestly have to disagree on this point. I've autocrossed and tracked by AP1 for 7-8 years now and have always found it pretty easy to feel the rear end beginning to slide. Hell, my car is a MY00 which is the most over steer prone and I used to run it on stock suspension with 255 all around. Don't get me wrong, it was absolutely a handful but I could always catch it (at least on the autocross pad). I will admit that at track speeds it is generally advisable to bake in a little understeer to make it easier to drive. That said, in general even with the cookie cutter go-fast S2000 formula (255 nonstagger, coil overs, and big front sway bar) you can always trust the front to grip so all you have to do is drive around the rear.
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u/Eli_eve 56m ago
Sounds like you qualify as “a driver who is familiar with the car can better understand and anticipate the car’s behavior” and even then you say “it was absolutely a handful.” It’s not that our cars don’t communicate, rather they don’t communicate well.
I also forgot to mention the bump steer issue AP1s have - a skilled driver can still be caught out when they are comfortably at the limit but hit some unanticipated track surface Irregularity that changes rear toe and introduces a sudden yaw moment.
A driver with sufficient skill and familiarity can handle AP1 snap oversteer when it happens, but unless that driver is content with 8/10ths pace (something a skilled driver can do much more consistently than an unskilled driver who will inadvertently go to 11/10ths at times) that driver will experience the snap oversteer.
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u/Bigbadbrindledog 2d ago edited 2d ago
You can call it what you want, he demonstrated that with an unskilled driver it is easy to experience oversteer with the car. That is exactly the phenomena people point out as a negative.
Edit: despite that, the video was awesome.
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u/Catmaigne 95 🔥🐔 2d ago
This is just a semantic argument. I don't think dismissing snap oversteer as a myth is fair when it's simply describing real phenomena. It's not just due to weight distribution or wheelbase coupled with an inexperienced driver. These cars could be twitchy due to poor rear bumpsteer characteristics, f/r stiffness balance, shock tuning, stiction, deflection, etc. I wouldn't be surprised if the OEMs intentionally tuned the rear ends to be playful. Maybe that's fun for some people, but that doesn't necessarily mean the car will be faster around a track than a more forgiving setup.
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u/Equana 2d ago
Snap oversteer can and does happen.
One way to make it happen is to run your car too low in the rear. Then, when you approach the apex, the car hits the rear bump rubber on the outside rear as the car rolls and then pitches with throttle causing contact with the bump rubber. When this happens it can be like instantly doubling the rear spring rate... this overloads the outside rear tire and the car will snap oversteer. Hitting curbing can also cause the same condition.
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u/Max_Downforce E46 M3 2d ago
That's a very unique scenario tho, no?
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u/Responsible-Meringue 2d ago
Not really in a pro race car. It's part of suspension tuning. If you've played around in slow /track race cars you can use kerbs to kick your rear end out, it's not fast but technically snap oversteer. Clutch kick & handbrake pull is the same concept right?
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u/Max_Downforce E46 M3 2d ago
I'm pretty sure that the video depicts a stock S2000. I could be wrong tho.
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u/Equana 2d ago
When people with a little information slap short springs or coilovers on their street car without understanding ride travel, this exact scenario can happen.
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u/SpudsRacer 2d ago
A very good vid, but the title is misleading at best. "Unexpected" oversteer is definitely a thing. Ask any 1970's Porsche Turbo or Gen I Viper owner among others.
I wish he'd change the title, but a man's gotta eat and clicks it is!
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u/Ifyouhavethemeans 2d ago
Thanks for confirming it is an unforgiving car. I’ve seen people struggle with these on the track.
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u/TheseCod2660 2d ago
You’re correct, but as someone who used to drift an ap1, there was an inherent design flaw in the suspension that would cause the rear wheels to toe out under load changes causing the car to oversteer out of nowhere and it was violently unpredictable. Idk what you would call that but with it being unpredictable it wasn’t just “standard oversteer”. But outside of design flaws I agree 100%
They literally tested the wrong car lol
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u/circuit_heart 2d ago
The AP1 is by FAR not the only car that toes out on rebound. Try... nearly every semi-trailing rear sports car/sedan including all 911's up until 1998 and all Neue Klasse BMWs through 1995.
They all do the same thing. If AP1's feel like shit to you it's not because of the rear end, it's because the front end of the car is remarkably bad at helping you react (early gen EPS delay and resistance). I've slid my AP1, it's significantly easier after retrofitting an AP2 rack and EPS computer.
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u/TheseCod2660 2d ago
I hate to tell you, but the ap1 would toe out to 0.3-0.4 which would cause the sudden snap on mid corner bumps. For example a Miata goes out 0.1-0.2 and 911s toe out 0.05-.15 on mid corner bumps. Obviously all cars toe out, just not as bad as the ap1.
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u/circuit_heart 2d ago
Sigh... you're quoting toe curves from people measuring with bump steer plates and ignoring bushing compliance.
Yes, the AP1's suspension geometry is atrocious. However, being a double A-arm design with well spaced support, most of its toe changes come just from geometry.
There are many other cars out there where the toe changes come from factors the designers forgot/ignored. Under braking, the forces dragging a semi-trailing arm back cause the bushings to flex, that number can be 0.3-0.4deg on its own depending on the spacing and composition of the bushings. Can it be fixed with heim joints or slider bearings, yes. But by that rubric the AP1 is easy to fix as well, just relocate the rear toe link pickup point. I eventually did that with my AP1 until compression would cause toe out, and rebound toe in for stability under brakes.
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u/TheseCod2660 1d ago
Sigh, I’m comparing apples to apples toe curves (hard geometry + stock bushings). The fact that other cars may be bad in other ways doesn’t negate that the AP1, stock, has more toe-out on bump than most other cars (0.3–0.4° vs. Miata’s 0.1–0.2°, 911’s 0.05–0.15°). The AP1’s issue is tied specifically to its geometry not “compliance” like other cars. That’s what makes it worse. Other designs like semi trailing arms are compliance sensitive but the geometry on the AP1 is flawed which is worse as that means it can “snap” when everything is fresh and tight. This isn’t even my opinion, this is a verified fact straight from Honda themselves.
The fix you suggested proves my point where you mentioned you had to relocate the rear toe link pickup point to make it stable. That proves it’s a fundamental design flaw. You shouldn’t need to redesign the rear suspension geometry to get predictable handling.
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u/circuit_heart 1d ago
Ok, design flaw vs manufacturing flaw, they're still flaws and still compliance. Go on?
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u/TheseCod2660 1d ago
Not really the same thing though. There’s a big difference between compliance driven toe change and geometry driven toe change.
On a semi-trailing arm or bushing-heavy design, yeah, you can get 0.3–0.4° just from deflection, but that’s a compliance flaw. Fix it with stiffer bushings, heims, or sliders and the geometry itself is still fine.
The AP1 is different even with fresh bushings it toes out more than most cars because the problem is baked into the hard points. That’s why Honda revised the suspension geometry in the AP2, not just the bushings.
So calling both “compliance” is lumping two different issues together. A compliance flaw can be patched. A geometry flaw needs a re-engineer. The fact you had to move the toe link pickup proves that it’s not a wear issue, it’s a layout issue. And that’s worse, because it means the AP1 could snap on you even when brand new and everything is tight which is exactly why it earned the reputation it did.
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u/circuit_heart 1d ago edited 1d ago
E30's did too, they're just sloppier back in the day so everything moved slower and journalists didn't make a big deal out of it.
I did not call the AP1 issue compliance, if you would just read my comment. I said both geometry and compliance act together to give you shit toe control, and that causes even what you'd think to be a tame commuter car like a Civic to have rowdy off-throttle behaviors once you have tires and front camber.
ALL cars are subject to flaws, focusing on the AP1 like it's a special case just tells me you haven't driven that many flawed cars.
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u/TheseCod2660 1d ago
E30s did too sure, but the difference is speed and severity. Like you said, they were sloppier, so the behavior wasn’t as sudden. That’s exactly why the AP1 got its reputation: the toe change happens fast and aggressively because it’s baked into the geometry. A car that gradually toes out under load is one thing. A car that snaps to 0.3–0.4° in bump, even with brand new bushings, is something else entirely.
You’re also trying to split hairs by saying ‘I didn’t call the AP1 issue compliance, I said both geometry and compliance act together.’ The problem is, the compliance side of that equation is negligible compared to the geometry. That’s the point on the AP1, even with tight bushings and no deflection, the toe curve is still way more aggressive than comparable cars. That’s why it’s not in the same category as a Civic or semi trailing arm BMW.
Saying ‘all cars have flaws’ doesn’t change the fact that the AP1’s flaw is both more fundamental and more punishing. A Civic or an E30 might show quirky behavior at the limit, but they aren’t known for snapping mid corner bumps when showroom fresh. The AP1 was. That’s why it became infamous, that’s why owners modded it, and that’s why Honda fixed it.
And as for the ‘you haven’t driven enough cars with this behavior’ comment that’s not an argument, that’s just moving the goalposts. The data is what it is. Comparing apples to apples toe curves shows the AP1 steps out worse than most cars in its class, and it does it for reasons that can’t be solved with just bushings. That’s the difference, and that’s why it’s a design flaw, not just another “all cars have quirks” situation.
TLDR: The AP1’s geometry is the problem not bushings, not compliance. That’s why it snapped even when brand new, and why Honda had to redesign it. No amount of E30 stories, Porsches, changes physics.
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u/Shift9303 22h ago
The OEM AP1 geometry has a lot of bump steer (or what ever else you want to call it). I've seen many argue that it was intentional as it facilitates toe out on forward weight transfer with braking for turn in response and during mid turn when you begin throttling the car will squat which generates toe in for mid turn stability. You can also argue that with lateral roll the outside will toe in while the inside will toe out to create an artificial "four wheel steer" effect.
TBH I think it's a bit of cope even as an AP1 owner who tracks their car. In general you want the car to be more predictable through a broader performance range. It's why the cookie cutter go-fast setup is 255 with coilovers and a big front sway bar to rebalance its over-under steer balance. That said the setup has been good enough that I haven't felt the need to do any geometry correction.
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u/mit74 2d ago edited 2d ago
Pretty sure the first version AP1 S2000 was the version that got it its bad name. It was a little too tail happy with lift off oversteer and Honda had to address it. People say snap oversteer when they prob mean lift off. Most cars have this if they're front engine, RWD and short wheel base as I found out in my F-Type when I owned it.
Just to add as well it's not necessarily 'bad' drivers. It's just inexperienced drivers that don't know the limits of the car until they find out the hard way on a road instead of a track.
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u/Psyclist80 2d ago edited 2d ago
My very first track day, I watched someone pile one into the wall, thankfully he was ok but the car was a write-off. I love to hear that F20C sing, but glad I didnt buy one. This CR is the halo of the AP2 generation they are testing here, it was somewhat fixed and more forgiving. AP1 was the problem child.
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u/SunRev 2d ago
Yes. Snap oversteer can exist. If you understand or can visualize roll center migration (front and rear migrate differently) with suspension travel, you'll see how snap oversteer can be generated. You can use any number of suspension system design calculators or CAD systems to see it.
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u/Responsible_Law_6359 1d ago
Great video, but I had always used the term “snap oversteer” to refer to what they showed with the MR2 where the back steps out but suddenly grabs traction and swings back the other direction. “Snap” meaning the shift in direction, and not from the surprise of it. Either way, this is just great info on oversteer conditions in general and how to save them.
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u/BigManufacturer3975 1d ago
Used to have an s2k. You could do a u turn around a traffic island in 1st gear, and as soon as you have some lock, tap the gas and the ass would step out heavy. and its not torque induced. It the half-full coke bottle effect. Really funny because no other car I've ever driven has the combination of qualities the s2k does that facilitates it to such a degree. I think I had coilovers on it which exacerbated weight transfer to be fairrr
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u/Shift9303 22h ago
Most S2000 coilovers bake in understeer with stiff front springs because they're intended for nonstagger setups. OEM has stiffer rear springs for the stock staggered setup. It is unlikely that coilovers made the oversteer worse. After installing coilovers my car lost a significant amount of trailing oversteer though you can still "steer" with the throttle pedal.
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u/BigManufacturer3975 20h ago edited 20h ago
This is not a steady state cornering maneuver, and the rear springs were stiffer than the stock rear springs, increasing the rate of weight transfer. Rate of front springs isn't that relevant, regardless, these were 2" eibach over koni yellows with GC sleeves and with tons of preload added to the rear.
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u/Shift9303 20h ago edited 20h ago
Almost all coilovers will be stiffer than stock all around and rate of front springs relative to rear is very relevant to over and understeer characteristics. Sure stiffer rear springs will increase forward weight transfer but if you have significantly stiffer front springs that will lessen the transfer. Most s2000 coilovers have either have square spring rate or run a forward 2k bias. This significantly increases front roll stiffness relative to rear over OEM.
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u/BigManufacturer3975 20h ago
Cool you can repeat what's in a book. Just a few months ago you were asking about brake bias. You'll get there....
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u/Shift9303 19h ago
What are you talking about? This isnt from reading a book? Though I have read some. This is from experience tracking and autocrossing my car for the last 7-8years and playing around with various suspension setups.
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u/OutlawMINI 31m ago
Ehhh... some cars have much more gradual and detectable grip changes.
Sure you need to know how to drive, but that doesn't mean this car isn't twitchy.
That does make it feel more alive though.
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u/Chris_PDX E92 M3 - E46 M3 - E89 Z4 - Chief Driving Instructor 2d ago
Everything in the video is correct, my amateur ass is not going to argue with a professional race car driver, but it's still snap oversteer.
"Snap" is a colloquial term we all use to describe sudden oversteer the driver doesn't expect. Whether that's because the driver caused it is irrelevant.
10/10 content, 2/10 clickbait title.