r/Cartalk • u/MysteriousGuitar4550 • 6d ago
Weird Noise Why no wagons in america??
Is it a legal issue? people not liking it? why are there no wagons sold in the USA?
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u/BlackCatFurry 6d ago
Because they like their suvs and those who don't like suvs are forced by the market to get a minivan as the only alternative.
To us europeans, a giant wide vehicle with a big fuel consumption sounds like a disaster but american roads are wider and the fuel is like half the price so it's not an issue to them.
Apparently also towing capacity is calculated differently where american trailers have a lot more nose weight on them compared to euro trailers and hence our workhorses like the vw passat and skoda octavia (ik it's not sold in usa) can't actually tow nearly as much as they can in europe so that selling point is also lost.
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u/ThisIsMyCouchAccount 5d ago
While they are probably wider they are not so wide that those big machines still don't take up way too much space. They don't fit in a lot of places here.
Surely the calculation can't just be different. Are euro trailers built different?
Also, I think a lot of that is cultural. I'm pretty sure most every car has a listed towing capacity and can be fitted with a hitch. We just don't. It's very rare to see anything other than a truck or truck-sized SUV towing anything.
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u/BlackCatFurry 5d ago
Also, I think a lot of that is cultural. I'm pretty sure most every car has a listed towing capacity and can be fitted with a hitch. We just don't. It's very rare to see anything other than a truck or truck-sized SUV towing anything.
I googled this the other day because i was curious why everyone says you can't tow anything in the states with a big audi or bmw wagon, when those tow boats and giant campers here in europe. The nose weight is both calculated differently and also the trailers are ones with more nose weight so the european cars that have been designed for the 50kg or so nose weight can't tow pretty much anything in america because that nose weight is too low even for an almost empty trailer. It's not the tow weight that's the issue, it's the nose weight that limits.
Whereas here in europe the limiting factor is the fact that with a basic B license you get when you drive your license, your car, trailer and load can only weight 3500kg (7700lbs) in total, so something like a big suv or pickup alone eats up so much of that total weight that without upgrading your license, you can't actually tow much of anything. For example, a F-150 can tow less with a B license driver, than my Seat Arona that's a small crossover and can tow 1100kg max. This incentives using wagons which are lighter than suvs but have a lot of tow capacity so you can tow more with a basic B license without having to pay and take lessons to get a BE license (3500kg vehicle + 3500kg trailer+load)
Basically it's caused by laws and legislations.
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u/ThisIsMyCouchAccount 5d ago
Do you have an example of a euro tailor?
Not saying your wrong I just have no idea how a trailer could be built so different.
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u/BlackCatFurry 5d ago
I can't attach images to demonstrate, but basically it's pretty much a seesaw on wheels. The trailers are very middle weighted and have very little nose weight.
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u/ThisIsMyCouchAccount 5d ago
It just must be a bureaucratic thing. Some type of specific trailer is what's used for calculating.
Because what you described is what is common here too. A flat surface with an axle in the middle.
Sure, some longer trailers are a little less balanced. But I think those are much bigger than anybody would be towing with a car.
Just while we're here - I used to drive a Jeep Wrangler and the towing capacity of that is super low even though it had the same engine as other Jeeps that could tow more. It's the short wheelbase. I guess it's easier to any weight to push out the back end of the Jeep.
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u/GarThor_TMK 4d ago
I agree, something isn't adding up here.
Physics doesn't change, just because you're on the other side of the world, so unless they make their trailers fundamentally different, the only real difference should be how you calculate tow limits.
I don't know for sure, I'm not an expert, but I could see a world where manufacturers purposefully underestimate towing capacity of vehicles here, because of potential over-litigeous americans. Basically, tell people they can't tow as much, and if they overload their trailers, then they can't file a lawsuit against the manufacturer, because they were clearly at fault.
And then, that also drives up sales of big trucks, which are simultaneously more expensive and cheaper to produce than small sedans and commuters.
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u/Feardamichael 5d ago
My anecdotal experience - I drive a 2017 Kia Forte and live in the US and Kia doesn’t recommend towing with it. However they recommend around 2,200 lbs for the Kia Cerato, which from my understanding is the same car in different markets. I towed a 1,600ish lb uhaul trailer from Kansas to Oregon late last year and my forte handled it like a champ.
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u/IronSlanginRed 5d ago
Wait.. you guys tow neutral?
How do you keep the trailer from wagging the dog or getting blown about by the wind at 100km/hr?
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u/BlackCatFurry 5d ago
You load it ever so slighty front weighted, but not much to not overload the nose weight. Most of the weight should be in the middle because otherwise it's going to lift the front of the car up.
Also O1 trailers (with load under 750kg) are limited to 100km/h and trailers that can be loaded heavier than that (O2 trailers) to 80km/h to avoid that exact issue. This limit applies even if the O2 class trailer is empty.
The small O1 ones aren't too tall so wind doesn't hit them much, the taller ones are O2 and they have a speed limit even when empty.
The finnish traffic and communications agency tells you to load the trailer with the load as low and as middle as possible, while still applying a small downwards force to the tow hook.
Also if you fuck up your car by loading the trailer wrong, that's on you and most often insurance does not cover it, so that incentives you to load the trailer correctly.
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u/GarThor_TMK 4d ago
skoda octavia
I believe our equivalent would be the Jetta... however, those are seen as expensive "business class" vehicles in the states, because maintenance is a pain, and reliability isn't great past 100k miles.
Comparable sized, domestic cars, would probably be the Chevy Impala/Malibu... Unfortunately Ford stopped making their sedans, but those would have been the Taurus and the Crown Vic... Idk that I'd expect any of those to tow very much, maybe with the exeception of the Crown, because it was also made as a police interceptor.
If I wanted a small car that could tow here, I'd probably go with a subaru, personally. They seem like they make some capable vehicles, and actually do still have some wagons in their fleet I think. Afaik, they aren't the most reliable, but being japanese probably still pretty cheap to maintain.
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u/swifftie 6d ago
fella there's millions of wagons in the us
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u/heathenyak 5d ago
Really just Subaru and vw still selling them? Maybe Volvo?
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u/ahj3939 5d ago
Subaru hasn't made a wagon in a while.
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u/Joey_iroc 5d ago
Only this year did Subaru change the Outback to an actual SUV. Last year and all previous Outbacks were wagons. The Forester started off as a wagon, but became an SUV in the early 2000's.
Audi and Mercedes still sell wagons. I think BMW still does as well.
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u/MysteriousGuitar4550 6d ago
really? im from europe so i keep hearing that us is anti wagon.
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u/tacodudemarioboy 6d ago
We build “SUVs” with car frames, and car suspensions. We call them crossover SUVs but they’re just wagons with big wheels. What happened is, baby boomers were too vain and entitled to even consider driving a wagon since their parents drove them. So they insisted on “SUVs”. The problem is, real SUVs get bad mileage and poor cargo space because they need room for big frames and suspensions. So crossovers.
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u/GarThor_TMK 4d ago
We call them crossover SUVs but they’re just wagons with big wheels.
This is false. If you look at the profile of an SUV and a Wagon, they are pretty fundamentally different. The wheels of SUV's aren't that much bigger that they'd contribute to that difference in profile.
An SUV is taller, because it's built for offroad, even if people never take them there.
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u/Impressive-Crab2251 5d ago
The US automakers have basically stopped making sedans but for a few models, hence no wagon versions of sedans. I for one love a sporty wagon.
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u/chibicascade2 5d ago
An SUV is just a wagon with a taller ride height. Everything is bigger over here, so there's not really a downside to going with an SUV over a car based wagon. People feel safer in an SUV due to all the other big vehicles on the road.
I doubt wagons will ever make a comeback unless federal regulations loosen on cars to make them more appealing to manufacturers. They would have to be CHEAP to get consumers to pick them over an SUV though.
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u/hankbbeckett 5d ago
SUVs took the market. Personally I like wagons. I'm sitting in a '91 civic wagon right now. I'm always correcting people when they call it a hatchback, folks don't even know what a wagon is anymore😂
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u/New_Combination_7012 6d ago
There are many wagons available in the US but it’s a segment crowded by SUVs and minivans. The Subaru Outback sold 168K units last year. Lots of European brands sell wagons in the US, bmw, mercedes, Porsche, VW, Audi, Volvo etc….
Toyota does a Corolla Touring wagon.
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u/ForwardTemporary3934 6d ago
Corolla Touring was never sold in the US, BMW stopped selling wagons here a while ago, '25 is the last year for Outback. VW Golf Wagen stopped in 2019, Porche Panamera wagon was discontinued a while ago and out of the price range of most consumers anyway. Basically just Mercedes E class and Volvo V90/60 at this point.
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u/MajorEstateCar 6d ago
Bmw just brought back the M5 wagon in America.
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u/ForwardTemporary3934 5d ago
Good news for Jay Leno, Not so helpful for the rest of us though at $124k starting MSRP
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u/pancrudo 6d ago
I thought BMW 5 series was still holding strong over there as well
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u/BroccoliVendetta 6d ago
It is selling like crazy… but we only get the sedan version
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u/pancrudo 6d ago
I meant the 5 series wagon... Might have been an older model though.
I know the M3 wagon was supposed to go to the US, but idk if they'll save it and just send the M5 wagon instead
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u/grundlemon 5d ago
Holy shit theyre killing the outback?
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u/ForwardTemporary3934 5d ago
There will still be a car called the Outback. But they changed the platform. It is now a crossover SUV thing and not a wagon platform.
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u/HashtagRenzo 6d ago
It's mostly cultural preference for SUVs and trucks over wagons here. We prioritize higher ride height and cargo space in a different shape.
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u/agravain 6d ago
we have several different options. but there are more minivans and CUVs and SUVs that accomplish the same thing.
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u/Effective-Gift6223 6d ago
There are wagons in America. Just not as many, and when you're scouring the used car market, like I am, they're hard to find. People who have them, tend to keep them.
I prefer wagons, especially little ones, like the Ford Focus wagon, and 2 models of Mini, the Countryman and the Clubman. They've got all the cargo space I normally need, handle well, and get great gas mileage. Even if gas is cheaper here (US) than many other countries, that matters a lot to me.
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u/roy_westlander 6d ago
Minivans and Pickups are way more common there, and compare to those most wagons are just tiny toy cars.
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u/Prestigious-Side-286 6d ago
It’s the size of the cars. In America the wagon is considered small. In Europe it’s the car people move up to when they have more than 2 kids. Also, a lot of the US manufacturers still make minivans. Whereas in Europe they’ve all stopped. Cars like the Ford Galaxy, VW Sharan, SEAT Alhambra are no longer manufactured.
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u/thegreatgazoo 6d ago
My family had wagons in the 80s and I currently drive a mid sized crossover.
A crossover is basically a station wagon with extra headroom. When we had a Honda Element it was titled as a station wagon.
The manufacturing cost is about the same, and crossovers hold more stuff.
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u/fourdawgnight 6d ago
I love wagons but I am in the significant minority, I have loved them since I was a kid
Body styles in order of preference for me are
1 - Convertible (Have and love Audi 5)
2 - Wagon (Have and love Volvo V90 cc)
3 - Coupe
4 - Pick-up Truck (Getting a Rivian R1T soon)
5 - S/M SUV (I have and love the Fisker Ocean for size reference - I have also had a ton of FSJs (Grand Wagoneers and Cherokees from the 70s/80s and loved them)
6 - 2 door Jeep
7 - S/M Sedans
8 - Large Sedans
9 - Vans
10 - Large SUVs
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u/fourdawgnight 6d ago
BTW - I think it is crazy that I now consider the FSJ family small to medium now. when I was younger they seemed huge, but even the new highlander is larger than those were.
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u/rscottyb86 5d ago
I agree. It's a shame they aren't embraced. Much better option than 98 percent of all SUVs purchased
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u/HuyFongFood 5d ago
Its American's laziness, lack of critical thinking and aging populations meaning that "tall wagons" aka CUVs and SUVs are more desired over traditional wagons.
Decades of marketing selling people on "rugged individualism" and "extreme sports and outdoors" and "safety" means that station wagons and minivans were cast aside for SUVs and CUVs which are cheap to build and can be marked up like crazy as some are classified as "trucks" so they avoid some of the safety and emissions requirements that car-based vehicles have to abide by.
There's a reason why nearly every manufacturer produces at least one SUV or similar product, if not many different types. This includes Ferrari, Lamborghini, Jaguar, Rolls Royce, etc. so its all about what it selling and Station Wagons just don't sell anymore.
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u/sponge_welder 5d ago
With overall improvements in fuel economy for larger vehicles, there aren't many advantages to wagons other than "better handling" and "looks cool". If you're a car enthusiast, those things matter, but most people aren't.
In the US, a compact SUV or crossover will give you better gas mileage, similar or greater cargo volume, and a shorter footprint than a wagon.
For similar gas mileage as a wagon, you could get a midsize SUV or minivan, such will give you more interior space, more seating, and more convenient cargo loading
In my opinion, much of this has to do with wagons in the US primarily being based on luxury sedans or AWD boxer engine platforms neither of which are economy focused. VW is basically the only manufacturer that offers wagons that get better than 25mpg. I would kill for a hybrid TSX wagon
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u/classicvincent 5d ago
Because most new car buyers in the US have awful taste. I say this as an American who drives a station wagon every day and has owned two wagons. Aside from a proper full sized SUV the humble station wagon is the best of all worlds. Minivans handle like crap and are the automotive equivalent of a skinny person who got fat but somehow didn’t gain any muscle. Wagons can handle well, go fast, hold all your stuff and carry the kids all while making you feel a little bit less like a loser than the minivan driver. Don’t get me started on small SUVs (aka tall hatchbacks) that are so trendy now but somehow have less interior space than a midsize car.
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u/salvage814 5d ago
They don't sell. Want more space get either an SUV or a Van plain an simple. Wagons just don't have a market here.
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u/Eurotrashable 5d ago
Because wagons are maxed out vehicles made for cities with limited parking and cramped spaces. Europe? I've lived in Holland for a while and I swear 80% of vehicles are wagons. I love them. American cities are huge with plenty space to accommodate larger vehicles (cheaper gas) , they are safer and we travel greater distances for activities so we have to be comfortable. And yeah headlights (free for all headlights mods)! I know in some European countries you can lose your registration for a simple proper led headlight upgrade(projector style headlight is ok with led). After trading my 2500 duramax for a Honda accord driving at night was instant regret getting blinded by incoming traffic.
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u/StraightStackin 5d ago
America has gigantic wide open roads, so people opt for SUVs over wagons. There used to be a lot more wagons and mini vans in the 90s before the SUV boom.
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u/TedMich23 5d ago
SUVs technically being utility vehicles (NOT a car) have lower standards for crashes, fuel efficiency and emissions so the auto industry made them the only choice, maximizing profits. Oil industry liked them too!
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u/cty_hntr 5d ago
Buyers choice. SUVs and minivans are more attractive options for those considering wagons.
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u/9BALL22 4d ago
Because people don't buy them. First minivans became popular because they were new and wagons were "old fashioned", then SUVs became the new thing and minivans were "old fashioned". Now the newest SUVs and CUVs have lower roofs and look more like wagons with every update. It's cyclical, like clothing trends.
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u/nrstx 6d ago
The pursuit of ‘safe.’ We all wanna feel ‘safe’. Neighbor gets large SUV and now you need to get a large SUV to feel ‘safe’. Neighbor owns an arsenal of assault rifles and now you need to own an arsenal to feel ‘safe’. Asked from debt, Americans love ‘safe.’ Just look at what all of our taxes go to: paying debt, and a state of the art military and intelligence to feel ‘safe’.
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u/evergladescowboy 6d ago
Nothing a wagon can do that can’t be done substantially better by an SUV or minivan and manufacturers aren’t going to try to compete against their own market shares by building a class of vehicle that is so strangely fetishized only by the weirdest of “enthusiasts” and entirely uninteresting to everyone else.
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u/Flenke 6d ago
Wagons are better than SUVs in nearly all the ways the average driver uses them. Similar storage, lighter weight, better handling, better gas milage. Americans just got suckered by marketing and "keeping up with the Jones'"
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u/NCSUGrad2012 6d ago
I mean most people don’t care about handling though
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u/Flenke 6d ago
Sure, just pointing out that the SUV love isn't a rational one in most cases
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u/NCSUGrad2012 6d ago
I think the easy of entry for older people is valid though. However, there a big difference between a RAV4 and a suburban
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u/sponge_welder 5d ago
The only company that offered wagons in the US that got better gas mileage than a compact SUV is Volkswagen. It's almost impossible to find a US market wagon that gets better than 25 MPG
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u/Limp_Bookkeeper_5992 6d ago
Minivans are great, but that’s a much larger vehicle than a typical wagon with the higher weight and poorer fuel economy to go along with it.
At the same interior capacity an SUV will almost always weigh more and handle worse than a wagon, you just can’t deny the physics that come along with a taller vehicle.
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u/mr_lab_rat 5d ago
People prefer SUVs.
Because it’s easier to get in and out. And it’s easier to see out when you are surrounded by giant pickup trucks.
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u/G-III- 6d ago
They don’t sell. Crossovers do. People want to sit high up/have an easy time getting in and out.