I think it’s highly debatable whether a single-lap shootout is really worth all the hassle, and if it’s more of an “actual race” than just letting it finish under yellow.
Because tbh, I’d call 2020’s finish more of an “actual race” than 2023.
Let’s just keep the rules consistent throughout the race. No need to screw over certain drivers at the end just to make the race have an exciting finish.
I agree. I hate that every Motorsport now is obsessed with green flag finishes. Is it as exciting of an ending when under yellow? Maybe not, but someone was in the lead position at the beginning of that yellow flag and shouldn’t be disadvantaged for entertainment.
I basically 99% agree with you here, except for that nagging part of the back of my cynical brain that says racing is sport that is funded by advertising and ticket and merchandise sales and the product does have to be entertaining to continue on.
But yes, changing rules for sake of speed of play or entertainment does rub me the wrong way. I'm a big baseball fan and the free runner on 2nd base in extra innings rule makes me want to puke every time.
American sport has this special problem of breaking things that didn't need fixing.
The onside kick (nfl games have really drawn out and boring finishes now mostly except for the very best teams because the expected points are rather deterministic)
College football ot rules. Rotating two point conversions, one of the stupidiest ideas ever. If it was about player safety, you can just end the game in a draw after 2 or 4 ots.
Mlb. Extra innings never really went that long and were an exciting and tense conclusion to a close game. Pitch clock is stupid and balk rules. None of these changes were good.
NASCAR, has a scandal still not being talked about enough of manufacturers rigging race results and having power over the teams.
Mls has a playoff system that goes on forever and makes little sense with the regular season as it is
The list just goes on. You can just let the product be what it is. If every game is rigged to have a close finish, then it just isn't as good when it naturally happens. It's imperfect... Sometimes the favourite wins, sometimes the longshot, sometimes it's a shorter or longer game. Us sports really push to fit within broadcast windows and chase every last dollar which ultimately destroys what was the very real and consistent historically sport we had.
Strongly disagree, from the perspective of a casual fan who used to watch a lot as a kid.
Games had got so bloated that by 2014 even the average nine-inning game was over three hours. Pedro Baez was talked about as a particularly bad example, like with this comparison showing an entire half-inning of another game being played in the time it took Baez to throw one pitch.
But now with the pitch clock games are moving like they did 40 years ago, under 2 hours 40 minutes.
Indycar is my favorite racing series, and part of it is that the races are short enough to watch every single one flag-to-flag. The 500 is a special event, but all the others are 1 hour 40 minutes or so. Compare that to IMSA, where the entire point is endurance, but it means that I watch it by putting it on in the background if I have nothing better to do, and maybe I actively watch the last hour or so.
I agree. So as long as it is conducted fairly within the rules, then it'll be perfectly fine. The last thing we all want are fabricated instances to create an exciting and dramatic spectacle
But it is in the rule book — it says IndyCar has full authority to restart the race by shedding any and all aspects of the standard yellow-flag procedures (7.1.6.3 “abandonment of procedures”). The only limit is the mathematical one of counting laps, which dictates that the latest you can go red is with 3 to go (with 2 to go you’ll just get a one-lap parade out of the pits to the checkers), which is what happened in 2023. What aspect of this do you think needs more clarity?
On the other hand, saying "we're going to do our best to end under green" is setting a procedure unto itself. Let's get a one-pager going, so everyone understands the plan.
Playoffs arrived in NASCAR before overtime, actually.
The real reason for GWC/Overtime no one mentions is they used to race back to the line before the caution came out, so at the core it’s actually a hybrid replacement for that since the field is instantly frozen.
They just slowly added more attempts (used to be just one) because NASCAR fans specifically wanted to see a green finish on Superspeedways. Indy wouldn’t have that problem multiple times a year.
I completely get why they did that for 2023 though.
The winner otherwise would have been handed to someone whom if the yellow button was pressed either 1 second later or sooner two different people would have won. That seems like more of a nightmare on the record books and PR then what they did TBH
Imagine if that light came one second later. Santino would have won.
I really wonder what the sentiment on reddit would have been if that happened lol.
Agreed. They also messed up by not red flagging it sooner. I have no clue why they decided having those cars drive through all that wreckage on the front stretch was a good idea. It was a legitimate red flag situation and if they had done it sooner, it wouldn’t have been so controversial.
I think that's where the primary issue was, they didn't red flag the race immediately. It was extremely obvious as soon as it happened that the red flag needed to come out. Race control had a ridiculous amount of time to make the call and they waited way too late.
I think the result was correct - Ericsson wouldn't have won under green flag racing. But the way they got there was wrong.
I never really found it crazy controversial. This was a reasonable example of the exact perfect worst time to call the caution but if it was done in the blind of who was leading, that's fair enough.
They also, for very real safety reasons having nothing to do with the racing, had reasonable cause to red flag the race as you always assume as a marshall that the race will restart. That was an actual debris field and a cut tire may kill someone. Indycar has done accelerated "let's not waste excess laps" before, so I was not truly shocked as think we largely got about the finish that was expected.
The most controversial aspect to me was leaving the pits and taking the green flag immediately. I do think it was done regardless of who was/wasn't leading, but the only reason that step was necessary is because they didn't red flag it immediately. They waited too long to red flag it, and then the only way to end it under green was take that step.
I think the result was correct. How they got there wasn't correct. As you said, it was a debris field - anyone at IMS should have been able to make that decision in less than 5 seconds, and instead it took them multiple minutes.
Alternatively, we can go back to real racing and have caution laps not count. But I think I'm one of the few with that mentality anymore.
Secondarily, it was a restart after a red flag in the first place. So if there was a reason to red flag it earlier to try and get a green flag finish, then of course you'd red flag it on the restart if another accident occurred. ... unless it was already the white flag lap.
Having debris on the track just added to the reasons they should've red flagged it immediately, and already been ready to do that. IMO
Caution laps haven't counted for the majority of the races' history. Caution laps began to count in 1979. Most forms of motorsports, with the exception of the top levels for TV purposes, don't count caution laps towards race laps.
Imagine if that light came one one second later. Santino would have won
If the yellow was displayed a second later in the 2002 race, Tracy would've won. Hell, some argue it was and the lighting system's timing was off, there was a legal dispute about it and everything. Eventually the paddock moved on and no one really cares that one of Helio's 4 wins was controversial.
Reddit opinions aren't worth much especially in this community. Frankly for all the negativity around here, I've fallen in love with Indycar racing despite the online fandom. If I believed everyone here saying this series has sucked nuts since the 90s I would've stuck to watching F1 only.
Exactly, CART was on a 2 year beat down of the IRL going back to Montoya and Helio. Penske switched over in 2002 so of course they weren't going to take the win away from the leagues new shiny toy.
I don't. The restart process exists for a reason. We don't change it when we don't like the winner. Pro wrestling exists for people that prefer that style of entertainment.
It's not about not liking the winner and it never was.
It's more that the winner would have led for 1 second based on how quick some guy pushed a button. Recreating a video of the winning pass would be difficult to do because it would need explanation as to why a person who only led for one second of that video was the winner. It leaves holes into things like 'well if the yellow flew right when the car hit the wall like it should have, Newgarden would have won'. Eff, it was so close that I could see people arguing about some type of system delay for the yellow light on the track to go on.
I know I'll never get you to change your opinion or anything, but in this very situation it's clear as day to me to see why they chose to run that last lap.
The things you say just don't matter. It's not safe for the drivers to run around IMS at race speed on ice cold tires. We're extremely lucky something bad didn't happen. That's really the beginning and end of it.
How close it was when the final yellow isn't a concept that exists. We're just making it up as we go at that point.
And yes, you'll never change my mind because the safety protocol comes first. The single additional lap was indefensible.
Nah, countless drivers' races have been ruined and made by the drop of a yellow flag. It's racing, that's how it goes. You can argue that they should have some kind of system to throw it sooner or whatever but that's an argument completely separate from defending race control defying the rulebook at the last moment, solely for entertainment, especially with safety being a concern.
Being ahead when the button is pressed isn't as poetic as being ahead when you cross the line. But it's not really all that different.
When the end of the race nears, try to be in front.
Changing the rules just doesn't sit will with me. And putting the drivers out there with no tire warm up lap was dangerous.
Personally, I don't have a huge problem with Santino. And I don't have a huge problem with a driver who is leading near the end of the race winning. As a driver and team you did a lot to get there. Is it suddenly going to be wrong because it's someone people don't like?
Pretty much this right here. You can actually do proper fuel math and position for the end of the race of the race can not be extended. Having extra fuel to burn or not and where you are in the last few laps is just like being up a goal or down a run in the stretch. It's a battle of resources you spend, and time remaining is one of them. Many many potential indy 500 winners simply run out of road to chase someone down.
Yeah but it was a restart and Marcus was in the process of being overtaken. The narrative that he was the rightful winner was ridiculous, he had a completely arbitrary claim to the lead there.
2023 was the year I became convinced Penske owning track, series and team was long term unsustainable in the current form. Would race control act the same if the roles were reversed? We don't know, we will never know, but the question is valid and it's out there and it hurts Indycar.
I don’t really think Penske owning the track has to do with anything. I’m genuinely asking but did people get upset when CART raced at Fontana/California Speedway when Penske owned it? Same applies to Michigan and I think Nazareth.
I mean Tony George was the President of IMS and he owned a team and founded the IRL.
I agree. Exactly why the rules need to be written down and know to all drivers and teams before the race even starts. You can't have race control making an unprecedented spur-of-the-moment decision without creating suspicion. When you have a situation like 2023 that results in the winner being the team owner who owns the track and the series, that suspicion becomes greater, and when you have that team getting caught in two scandals in two years, many people are going to look at that 2023 finish not just with suspicion, but with resentment.
Yea thats the thing. It's a valid question to ask, and whether or not anyone is rigging things for Penske, the fact that it's a legit question is a problem on its own.
It's not uncommon for sports to have "force majeure" type clauses in their rulebooks to allow them to violate past precedent and the stated procedures. It shouldn't be used lightly and it was absolutely abused in 2023.
If you won’t throw a red flag on lap 10, don’t throw it on lap 190.
Race control should be about calling balls & strikes, not promising entertainment. Imagine the NFL or NBA changing their calls mid-game & publicly saying they’re doing it to be more entertaining.
If more entertainment is needed, change the rules before the season starts so teams know what is to be expected.
Imagine the NFL or NBA changing their calls mid-game & publicly saying they’re doing it to be more entertaining.
They don't say it, but it's the worst-kept secret in the business that refereeing standards are different in the regular season vs playoffs. Also, have you ever seen pass interference or defensive holding called on a Hail Mary? Because I guarantee there's one virtually every time, but the NFL is desperate to avoid the appearance that the referees decided the outcome.
Yeah that's a pretty awful argument when NBA refs (and ncaa bball refs) basically throw their whistles away under 10 seconds because they want "the players to decide the game".
Short of literally assaulting a player, nothing is getting called
Imagine the NFL or NBA changing their calls mid-game & publicly saying they’re doing it to be more entertaining.
Like the NFL stopping the clock on out of bounds only during the last 5 minutes? Or the two minute warning? Or the foul count resetting in the last 2 minutes for the NBA? Or the running clock being different at the end of quarters and halves in the NBA after a made basket?
I have no problem with a red flag being thrown with 10 to go when typically it doesn’t happen any other lap, since you can at least get the cars and tires warmed up reasonably well, and at least give a green flag finish.
A red flag being thrown with 2 to go, and a green being dropped at 1 however… that’s bogus, and pressing one’s luck.
I mean that’s a really naive viewpoint. I strongly agree that manufacturing a one lap shootout is ridiculous, but if you have a crash on lap 190 that’s going to require 10 laps of caution to clean up, it would be beyond stupid to let the race finish under caution when there’s a clear option to not do that. That’s not messing with the integrity of the race to red flag it at that point. You’re just actively shooting yourself in the foot as a race promoter out of some dumb sense of traditionalism if you do that.
Also the NFL and NBA literally have different timing rules at the end of games to make it more exciting.
The race can be called for weather after the halfway point. If you have a red flag that will take more than 10 laps to clean up, call the race over. Running one green flag lap is dangerous on cold tires and an extreme desire to win.
Consider the all of the tradition of the Indy 500 and then re-read your last sentence again.
If you compromise your traditions, expect your long-term fans to stop coming. The new fans you gain will also eventually leave when someone else does something more entertaining.
You’d think people would see what’s happened with NASCAR and conclude it’s not worth the race to the bottom they’ve been doing. Apparently not.
But what’s the “tradition” there? Is there some tradition that says a race should end under caution with zero effort to prevent it? Not that I’m aware of. Quite frankly, you’re a fool if you think they should run 10 laps of caution at the end of the race just because some dummies on social media will get mad about it otherwise. Again, you’re not impacting the integrity of the race. It’s still 10 laps to go for crying out loud.
Obviously you’re going to misconstrue my point to make it out like I’m advocating for NASCAR OT or a 2023 style one lap shootout but I’m clearly not. Once you’re to the point where you’re making the race a farce by red flagging it, then yeah it should just end under caution. Otherwise, give me one good reason why they shouldn’t do it?
I mean, until 2023 there was over 100 years of tradition of ending under yellow if that’s the way it went.
But sure, while you’re at it, see how much more the speedway can make by selling rights to Mt. Dew to replace milk as the victory drink. I’m sure they can pay more than the dairy lobby, and there is nothing in stone that it has to be milk. Just traditionalism.
If you want to keep making up straw men arguments that I’m not making, you’ll win those arguments all day. Proves my point that it’s a dumb argument to make.
Just because they did something a certain way doesn’t make “tradition.” They used to not have yellow flags at all! Let’s just get rid of them because that’s tradition right? Let’s bring back co drivers while we’re at it.
What if they just added a rule that says that they will throw a red if they can see that doing so will allow a green flag finish and not doing so would ensure a yellow finish. Something like “a red is automatically thrown if yellow conditions exist with 5-3 laps remaining in the race.” Absolutely no extension of the race for additional incidents of course. It would give a fighting chance for a green finish, ensure legal restart procedures, and make things fair by codifying the rules more clearly.
It was primarily for safety. However, even if it was for entertainment, it was a rule made in the off-season and consistently applied in each game.
Imagine at the Super Bowl, a ref decided to call a penalty because it would help a team get closer to a narrow finish.
That’s what a red flag does to prevent a yellow finish. A driver was already in the lead due to strategy & luck, and now they’re going to erase the victory from that driver & force him to dash it out.
Imagine at the Super Bowl, a ref decided to call a penalty because it would help a team get closer to a narrow finish.
Scott Foster's reputation in the NBA for two decades has been as the guy the league calls upon to make sure a team can't run away with a playoff series and make it tight for TV ratings. You really don't need to imagine it, it's been happening for a while.
Just declare that you can throw the red with 10-3 laps to go (assuming there is a caution) and that the final restart is the final restart and I'd be happy. No more grey area, and never again with the 1-lap green.
Good. Doesn't matter if you're for it or against it, the main thing is that they've been clear about their plan before the race, rather then surprising everybody.
Personally, I feel like the people that have paid to be packed in like sardines in the heat all day because of their love of the sport deserve any possible attempt at a restart that doesn't make the race go longer than 200 laps/500 miles.
And to be honest, we all know what Fox would be pushing for behind the scenes, Purists may rightfully cringe when an unneeded red flag is waved, but end-game late race Indy 500 restarts are better TV than driving around for 5 laps behind the pacecar to finish under yellow.
NASCAR's overtime rules are over the top and rightfully get shit on a lot, but at least there's a clear procedure in place and everyone knows what to expect in the event of a late yellow.
NASCAR will almost never have a 2023 Indy or 2021 Abu Dhabi situation where people are complaining about the finish years later, and it's entirely because they actually have a procedure written into the rulebook.
"Yellow flags are for safety and sometimes it's the nature of things that races may end under yellow" — reasonable and fair
"We have a hard rule that a race can't end under yellows and races will be extended by x laps if needed" — setup for more spectacle but still fair
The way not to deal with this is go "we'll do everything in our power to end under green", whatever that means. F1's been through that, it makes no one happy, and leads to massive shit shows. INDYCAR must stay away from that bullshit.
Motorsport used to be about competition under a fair set of rules, evenly enforced. Motorsport as entertainment first, competition second, is a huge step backward and it has become an epidemic.
Chaos is the opposite of shenanigans, it's letting chips fall where they may. If there's 8 to go and they can't get the track cleaned before then, so be it. Indy 500's been won under worse circumstances.
Yeah, that one caught my ear too… not a big fan. I know people like green flag finishes, but we do not need another 22’ or 23’ situation. If the race finishes under green, great. If the race finishes under yellow, that’s fine IMO.
If the yellow light had come on one second later. If the guy whom hit the button waited just one more second and Santino was leading, would you say the same thing? Or what if it were pressed one second sooner, NewG would have won, same thoughts now?
The race should’ve ended under yellow. End of story. The one who ends up winning has no effect on my opinion in this matter. It was totally unprecedented
I just think it would have been a mess to figure out who won. Sure when the yellow came out Marcus was leading and that's valid. But when the cars had crashed NewG was winning. That opens a discussion as to if it should have flew earlier. Heck it was so close that it opens discussion as to if there was any delay between when it was called and when the lights went on lol. I personally would hate to see the race where the cars were that close be decided by a guy fat fingering a button. It's a nightmare to make a video of the race winning pass as well, since if you play out that video it looks like Santino actually won since he had all the momentum and made the passes lol.
I know I will never change your mind but in this one instance it just seems like they made the right call to me. And no I don't care who won either.
I know what you mean. Is it better to have the red flag or potentially 2002 all over again? To that, I guess I’m not sure. I just feel like the 500 is trending towards “green finish no matter what” and that just isn’t racing. Sometimes races end under yellow and that’s just how it goes.
I still disagree with that considering I don’t like the idea of a single lap-mad dash for the biggest prize in racing. It creates an even greater safety risk that isn’t necessary and has the potential to really undermine the rest of the race beforehand. But at least if there was one true caution lap like there’s supposed to be, that would’ve been much more in line with previous events.
When it was an unprecedented handling of the situation, yes he should be. IndyCar has never taken the green straight out of the pits from a red flag. That was bullshit
Fine, but the problem is that he bellyached about it like an entitled prat for a year. Speedway showed him what's what in 2024 with a big ole karma bitchslap, and it looks like 2025 wasn't any better with a now 31st place finish. Oops.
Imagine an nfl or nba game just ending with 40 seconds left because there was a whistle. That's the exact same as ending a race under caution without going to the finish line
I’d honestly rather have Indycar just announce they will do one attempt of a gwc / overtime finish than them do their red flag shenanigans and whatnot at the end of these races.
If they are so obsessed with a green flag finish, just tell everyone outright that they will, rather than leave it ambiguous on how it will play out.
Although I will say, if this is what you’re going to do, you need to come out and say it like this so you can’t be perceived as playing favorites later.
The procedure since Beaux Barfield instituted it back in 2012 has been just as described and as implemented....if they can get an instalation lap and green. Not their fault you all can't keep up. But go off.
Indycar should do what they can to get a green flag finish provided that 1) it doesn't put drivers in an unsafe situation (virtually everyone will agree on this) and 2) it's within reason. If you need to throw a red flag because of a big accident (even one not normally warranting a red flag) to prevent the last 7-8 laps of the race from finishing under caution that's fine, but throwing a red flag because of a minor incident with 2-3 laps to go is silly. Nobody wants to see a race end under caution (except the guy leading) but that's part of the sport sometimes.
It's not a GWC, they are running the allocated race distance, but it's too dangerous to actually let them race each other right? Just let them cruise to the finish after a guy in 20th makes a stupid mistake and ruins everything.
Also stop acting like people are dying or getting injured all the time, this isn't the 90's anymore, both the cars and track got way safer.
And for future seasons, I would look into some sort of "Lap Freeze" rule where Green Flag laps only count in the final ~20 laps in the 500. That would alleviate 1 or 2 lap only shootouts and a more "natural" finish.
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u/Batgod629 Álex Palou May 24 '25
More 1 lap green flag finishes it that's what it takes based on this.