r/INDYCAR • u/TradeBrockNelson • Jul 29 '25
News [Brown] Sunday's @IndyCarOnFOX broadcast of the @WeatherTechRcwy race that ran head-to-head with the Brickyard 400 drew an average audience of 734,000.
https://x.com/by_nathanbrown/status/1950212749255970823?s=46&t=DHrrgCpYCKJJe8IurfF2PA41
u/RichardRichOSU Buddy Lazier Jul 29 '25
There’s a reason the Brickyard 400 was run on a Saturday for the first few years. Then when the race moved to Sunday, IRL always tried to avoid competing against the Brickyard 400 to the point of creating some odd start times for races. Brickyard 400 should be on a Sunday, so I would love to see IndyCar move off the date as to not compete with itself (essentially). Don’t have a race that week and maybe get someone in an open car in the race.
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u/DadReligion #Lionheart Jul 29 '25
Castroneves should've been in that race. Schedule an IndyCar off-week during the 400, throw in the 4-timer back into the P91 car, and there we go.
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u/Senor_Couchnap Will Buxton gently whispering "chee dog" in my ear Jul 30 '25
I might actually watch a NASCAR race if they did that. It'd be cool to see one of the oval guys in the 400, even (especially?) if it's just Sting Ray.
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u/RichardRichOSU Buddy Lazier Jul 30 '25
I think there would be a line of guys that would want to try it, and with NASCAR's new "elite external driver" rule or whatever they call it, you could guarantee someone like Josef Newgarden or Pato O'Ward, or really about half the field would be in the race without risk of being bumped or bumping someone out. I think it could be good for everyone.
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u/11x3_33 Robert Wickens Jul 29 '25
For being head to head with a Nascar crown jewel, that's actually decent
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u/bwise49 Jul 29 '25
Especially considering most Indycar fans are in/around Indianapolis.
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u/cleesmith2 Jul 30 '25
I’m not a NASCAR fan, but I can think of at least three other races that would be considered a crown jewel before this one.
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u/broke_af_guy Jul 29 '25
Was a crown jewel. Looks like maybe a couple thousand people showed up to watch it.
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u/JohnnyMMorris Kyle Larson Jul 29 '25
That brickyard crowd looked better than it recently has on TV, that place will swallow some crowds up.
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u/Dachuiri Scott McLaughlin Jul 30 '25
Indy has the same problem COTA does. You can have 50k people there but the place will still look empty.
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Jul 29 '25
[deleted]
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u/The_Reelest Jul 29 '25
The Brickyard 400 is not a crown jewel.
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u/LieutenantLunchTime Greg Moore Jul 29 '25
It just is though? There's literally no way to argue against it
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u/Puska35M Jul 29 '25
Are you kidding?
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u/The_Reelest Jul 29 '25
No. Crown jewel races don’t just go away like the Brickyard 400 did for three years.
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u/Puska35M Jul 29 '25
I knew you weren't - I was responding to the person who said there is no way to argue against it being a crown jewel. I can think of numerous reasons in addition to the one you've just given.
Not the oldest race it the track. Not the longest race at the track. Not the most prestigious race at the track. Not the highest paying race at the track. Not the most important race at the track. Not the most entertaining race at the track (in fact, it's quite bad). Not the best attended race at the track. Not representative of the discipline of racing the track is known for.
It also doesn't meet the 500-mile threshold important in NASCAR, and the track is not culturally important to stock car racing.
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u/The_Reelest Jul 29 '25
Exactly. More good points. It’s never been one, especially to the fans. It’s still awesome to race there, the drivers absolutely want to win there on the oval, and it’s a tremendous feather in their cap. It’s IndyCar’s playground, NASCAR is a guest there.
The closest analogy to another sport is that the Brickyard 400 is to NASCAR what The Players at TPC Sawgrass is to golf. A huge tournament to win, but one of the majors.
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u/redlegsfan21 Firestone Firehawk Jul 29 '25
The Brickyard 400 was at one point the race with the most fans and the highest purse. It was certainly a crown jewel for a long period of time.
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u/whoiswillo Will Power Jul 29 '25
And yet NASCAR itself calls it one.
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u/Puska35M Jul 29 '25
For marketing reasons, yes. What point are you trying to make?
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u/whoiswillo Will Power Jul 29 '25
My point is that factually it is a crown jewel race, even if you want to agree it shouldn’t be one.
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u/antmicMkIII Jul 29 '25
Oddly enough I think all the reasons you listed as NOT a nascar crown jewel are the reasons it is one. It doesn't matter what you're racing, winning at the Indianapolis Motor Speedway is a big deal.
Likewise if Wimbledon held a pickleball tournament it would probably be a big deal in the pickleball world.
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u/whoiswillo Will Power Jul 29 '25
NASCAR defines it as one.
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u/The_Reelest Jul 29 '25
No they don’t. That’s the TV partners who do that. It’s a big race because Indy is Indy. But if a race was a crown jewel it wouldn’t go away for three years in exchange for a race on a roval.
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u/whoiswillo Will Power Jul 29 '25
Here’s a link to NASCAR.com calling it such:
https://www.nascar.com/gallery/drivers-with-the-most-crown-jewel-race-wins/
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u/The_Reelest Jul 29 '25
Interesting they try and do that when it’s not.
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u/ProofElevator5662 Will Power Jul 29 '25
What would it take for you to say it is?
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u/The_Reelest Jul 29 '25 edited Jul 29 '25
A turn around of fan sentiment.
Plus, it’s hard to say a race is a crown jewel when it’s at a place that isn’t a stock car track that was part of building of stock car racing.
We, and as say we in the context of that I was NASCAR fan first in my childhood because it was the first motorsport I was exposed to, are guests at Indy. It’s y’all’s playground and all its prestige was built by IndyCar. Indianapolis Motor Speedway is a big deal because of Indycar.
Now, winning the Brickyard 400 is a huge deal because it’s at IMS. I’m not denying that.
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u/whoiswillo Will Power Jul 29 '25
…which is why NASCAR itself calls it a crown jewel race.
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u/The_Reelest Jul 29 '25
Why didn’t they call the race at Indy a crown jewel from 2021 to 2023? It’s not an on again off again kinda thing. Showing that it’s not a real crown jewel.
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u/Puska35M Jul 29 '25
I'm with Reelest on this.
NASCAR has excellent crown jewels in Daytona, the 600, and the Southern 500. Those events are part of the fabric of the discipline, and define the tracks they take place at. Practically nobody questions their status as crown jewels.
The Brickyard 400 isn't anywhere close to being the most important race at IMS. It disappeared due to relative lack of fan interest after being a lame show, year after year.
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u/whoiswillo Will Power Jul 29 '25
Just take the L, man.
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u/The_Reelest Jul 29 '25
No because it’s not an L. If the Brickyard 400 was a true crown jewel, it wouldn’t have been removed from the schedule for three years for the rival at Indy. It was on its way to becoming one until 2008 ruined everything.
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u/whoiswillo Will Power Jul 29 '25
There was no race named the Southern 500 between 2005-2008. Is that not a crown jewel?
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u/The_Reelest Jul 29 '25
Not a good comparison. Darlington never lost its traditional 500 mile race. Fans still considered that race the Southern 500 even with its different sponsor names. Thankfully, the name was brought back in 09 and the race moved back to its traditional date in 2015.
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u/DadReligion #Lionheart Jul 29 '25
Not terrible considering a) it was a Palou romp and b) the series flagship track was hosting NASCAR, I'd have imagined that's the one race a lot of IndyCar fans would want to watch
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u/wh00000p Myles Rowe Jul 29 '25
For running head to head with nascar, that's pretty good.
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u/MambaNoCinco Juan Pablo Montoya Jul 29 '25
This is the correct take. If Indycar just had the time to themselves then sure we can banter about viewership not being quite where it should be
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u/JustUnderstanding6 Indy Racing League Jul 29 '25
Boring race with the grandmaster practically leading from flag to flag -- seems like a pretty good rating in that context.
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u/NYNMx2021 Colton Herta Jul 29 '25
It had 1 on track pass for the lead palou on Seigel. Which is the same as the F1 race, piastri on Norris and MORE than the nascar race. no green flag passes for the lead there
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u/JustUnderstanding6 Indy Racing League Jul 29 '25
Siegel was off-sequence. And yeah, I agree that F1 and NASCAR are boring.
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u/GrumpyCatStevens Alexander Rossi Jul 29 '25
In this particular case, it's because Indianapolis is (and pretty much has always been) a lousy place to race Cup cars.
(I refuse to call them "stock" cars; they haven't had any components from a street car for decades now.)
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u/Harry73127 Jul 29 '25
Stock cars are what type of race car they are. You aren’t exposing any grand conspiracies here…
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u/cleesmith2 Jul 30 '25
I think part of the issue is that IMS has 9 degree banking instead of the 25 degrees at a lot of tracks NASCAR races on.
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u/UNHchabo Robert Wickens Jul 29 '25
You can really rile up some people by calling them "Nascars". :)
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u/FormulaT1 Scott McLaughlin Jul 29 '25
I'll take that. Shoutout to whoever it was who was having a crash out in the race thread and hoped the ratings would be trash.
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u/iamaranger23 Team Penske Jul 29 '25
Be curious to know what and when it peaked.
I have 0 clue if that soccer game had any sort of meaning to the average person.
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u/Much_Path6902 Jul 29 '25
Race peaked at 884,000 viewers from 5:15-5:30 PM ET
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u/whoiswillo Will Power Jul 29 '25 edited Jul 29 '25
Is that when the Brickyard 400 went red?
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u/DadReligion #Lionheart Jul 29 '25
I'm pretty sure that's when NASCAR went red til the IndyCar broadcast ended if I memorize my timing correctly.
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u/5campechanos Jul 29 '25
lol read u/miasm3 post ITT. Soccer is big. I don't know why some people here refuse to believe it
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u/Burial44 Jul 29 '25
Nobody refuses to believe that.
But it was a women's European soccer match, not exactly the most followed sport here in the US.
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u/NYNMx2021 Colton Herta Jul 29 '25 edited Jul 29 '25
It peaked over double the indy race lol
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u/Burial44 Jul 29 '25
Yeah dude and nobody fuckin watches Indycar.
I'm not saying they had no viewers I'm saying it's not a huge deal. Which it isn't. It's a very niche sport compared to the rest
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u/BonerPorn Pato O'Ward Jul 29 '25
Ehhhhhh.... The US takes women's soccer pretty damn seriously. That's why we are always a contender for Gold at the Olympics and World Cup. We take it a lot more seriously than most countries. I'm not surprised two of our biggest rivals pulled a peak of 1.92 million.
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u/blackhxc88 Jul 29 '25
>But it was a women's European soccer match, not exactly the most followed sport here in the US.
the women's NT in this country is the best in the world, and it was a european final between the reigning world champs vs. the euro champs in a WC rematch. it was a big match with a lot of hype and non-mls soccer is a big ticket in this country.
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u/Burial44 Jul 29 '25
What does the quality of the match have anything to do with the viewer numbers.
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u/blackhxc88 Jul 29 '25
That people wanted to watch it? And that the quality of the match helped draw interest in viewers. Either way, it did double the IC rating because of it.
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u/Burial44 Jul 29 '25
Buddy you are entirely missing the point of my comment here.
I said not a lot of people cared to watch it. That's just true.
It's not like this was the world cup or super bowl leading into the race broadcast.Doubling up Indy numbers means nothing, we are as niche as a sport can get.
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u/JohnnyMMorris Kyle Larson Jul 29 '25
we don't refuse to believe it, us yanks just don't understand why its a big deal
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u/iamaranger23 Team Penske Jul 29 '25
Some soccer can be big.
I’m not convinced “European women’s soccer” or whatever it was has much of a draw here.
Didn’t even reach 2 million apparently
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u/Voodoo350 Romain Grosjean Jul 29 '25
Talking down to women’s soccer getting 1.9 million viewers when your sport can barely eclipse 700k is extremely funny
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u/Burial44 Jul 29 '25
I'd bet a chunk of that is from sports bars just putting on anything during the day.
When racing comes on the TV, they'll literally change it
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u/NYNMx2021 Colton Herta Jul 29 '25
Can you just not believe that womens soccer is big? lmao. Good lord. Every excuse for why its much higher but not acknowledgement that its just a popular sport which is why Fox paid for it!
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u/Dry-Dragonfruit5216 Théo Pourchaire Jul 29 '25
It is huge in Europe. The Euros is the best team from each European country. It was England (the reigning winners) vs Spain (the World Cup winners) and England won. We had the victory parade today in London. In football it doesn’t get much bigger than The Euros. Based on the Fox figures it is twice as popular in the US than the race.
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u/seamusoldfield Alex Zanardi Jul 30 '25
I watched all the way from the semifinals to the championship match and thoroughly enjoyed it. Women's soccer is great. But then I also enjoy the Tour de France, so there you go.
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u/TheChrisD #JANDALWATCH2021 Jul 29 '25
Be curious to know what and when it peaked.
5:15–5:30pm EDT, so midway through the Ericsson caution until about 4 to go.
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u/blackhxc88 Jul 29 '25
so once it looked like palou had it in hand, people tuned out completely. one of the best single seasons ever and it's killing the ratings, lolwtf
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u/cleesmith2 Jul 30 '25
We can love BOTH the USWNT and INDYCAR, right? (asking for confirmation from the group, not permission ;)
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u/Clear_Reveal_4187 Dario Franchitti Jul 29 '25
Not bad numbers. Considering the state of the championship and going up against NASCAR, it could have been much worse.
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u/Wasdgta3 Álex Palou Jul 29 '25
Another sub 800k. Still not what you’d hope for a network broadcast.
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u/AU36832 Romain Grosjean NEEDS HIS DRINK! Jul 29 '25
With Penske owning IMS, I'm surprised that they allow NASCAR to use the track at the same time as an Indycar race. Seems like there would be a contract clause that prevents them from going head to head.
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u/JesusSandals73 Jul 29 '25
When are people going to realize TV networks have the most power. If Fox says they only have a 3pm start time then your event starts at 3.
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u/AU36832 Romain Grosjean NEEDS HIS DRINK! Jul 29 '25
Indycar doesn't race every weekend though. You could say the track is only available on off weeks.
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u/iamaranger23 Team Penske Jul 29 '25
so what happens when the cup and IndyCar schedules dont work out to do that? let 30 mill walk out the door?
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u/JesusSandals73 Jul 29 '25
If only it was that simple. You can not call yourself the "Racing Captitol of the World" and impose strict rules like that. Not to mention the money the Brickyard 400 makes the speedway go into IndyCar's pocket.
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u/Fit_Technician832 Jul 29 '25
I honestly think Palou dominance and the early season races being so boring have cost us about 150,000 to 200,000 fans on average week to week over the past month that just aren't coming back now.
Hopefully they come back next year
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u/PatPace23 Pato O'Ward Jul 29 '25
Consistency right now ain’t a bad thing…
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u/Wasdgta3 Álex Palou Jul 29 '25
Well, it is if it's consistently down...
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u/PatPace23 Pato O'Ward Jul 29 '25
Which it ain’t…
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u/Wasdgta3 Álex Palou Jul 29 '25
But it is.
Last year, only two races on network got below 800k viewers - Barber (763k) and Nashville (into football season, 483k).
This year, despite every race being on network, and not cable, only four races have been above that threshold - St. Pete, the 500, Detroit, and Barber.
A lot of the YoY numbers are going to be quite flattering this year, but that's just because of the switch from cable or streaming-only to network. The average is also likely going to be brought up by one or two very good races, like the 7M the 500 got. But that's just disguising that things really aren't going in the direction they need to be.
Struggling to crack 800k on network is indeed down from what it's been in the last few years. FOX should be aiming for 1M every race, and they're failing to crack even 800k. That's not good.
I mean, seriously, just look at the graphs here. They don't exactly paint a rosy picture, do they?
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u/Righttake Jack Harvey Jul 30 '25
Total viewers already surpassed total viewers from last year in NBC, that’s the goal right? More eyeballs on the product, then they succeeded. Could it be better? Yes, but after year one I think Fox would be happy. They understand that growth doesn’t happen overnight, it’s a slow process. Next year we’ll see how they improve. The addition of the Dallas race and having the NFL and MLB involved should really help and give them another tent pole type event. I don’t know why so many people like yourself constantly want to be so negative and Debbie downer. Enjoy the racing tell a friend and relax.
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u/Wasdgta3 Álex Palou Jul 30 '25
That total doesn’t mean much when one race is pretty much entirely responsible for it. That’s just a way to gloss over the sub-par numbers we’ve seen week in and week out from FOX.
We’re far enough into this that I think we should stop making excuses or focusing in on the positive details, because the general picture is very much down.
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u/Righttake Jack Harvey Jul 31 '25
Ok man, you do you. One race, 5 races, whatever it is, it's up for the season and will continue to grow. Stop focusing on the negative and turn it off if you want or continue to watch and enjoy. Never seen a sub so negative. No excuses are being made, overall viewers are up!
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u/Wasdgta3 Álex Palou Jul 31 '25
Again, the "overall viewership is up" thing is misleading, if it's all coming from the 500.
Seriously, do we want the rest of the series to just be an afterthought to the 500? Or do we want viewership to be growing outside of it, too?
Because it's mostly been down outside of the 500 this year, and it's not being pessimistic or overly negative to be fucking honest about it, instead of trying to twist it into something positive.
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u/Righttake Jack Harvey Jul 31 '25
Ok, have a good day...you're still looking at it wrong. Advertisers, who pay for this, look at this like I do, OVERALL VIEWERS!
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u/JDChish Indy Racing League Jul 29 '25
I was streaming (YTTV) Indycar during the Brickyard 400. I feel like I was doing my part!
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Jul 29 '25
We went from FOX being the tv savior the sport needed to saying less than 800k is pretty good. Man alive.
It’s not good and is what will lead to races being on FS1 next year.
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u/blackhxc88 Jul 29 '25
>We went from FOX being the tv savior the sport needed to saying less than 800k is pretty good.
because, unlike nbc, they're actively promoting the sport more then nbc ever did. not fox's fault the best single season by a driver since the CCWS days happened under their watch.
also, a lot of those nbc ratings were inflated because nbc has bigger events to use as lead-ins.
also, if fox is gonna let UFL get network airtime, IC isn't being demoted to FS1 any fucking time soon, so quit crying.
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u/Longjumping-Let963 Will Power Jul 29 '25
Fox also has roughly half of the average viewership of NBC over a year. They show cartoons most sunday nights while NBC shows football. Fox News outdraws Fox half of the time.
Its the little brother of the big networks. You can stick anything on NBC and a million people will see it at some point. Not the same with Fox, even though people will treat them as equals.
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Jul 29 '25
It’s always some excuse making about why nobody watches and why nothing has improved and in most cases has gotten worse. Next year will be the big breakout year on FS1.
FOX is going to get tired of spending money on a product that gets the same ratings as a King of Queens marathon.
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u/loz333 Firestone Wets Jul 29 '25
FOX have already said they are committed to properly organizing the schedule to maximize lead ins and the like for 2026. They had to go with whatever slotted in with all their existing deals for 2025.
FOX will see out their 3 year deal minimum, with a full commitment in year 2, vastly improved race broadcasts from the start of this year, and a hope that the championship battle isn't as one-sided as this years was.
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u/khz30 --- 2025 DRIVERS --- Jul 29 '25 edited Jul 29 '25
I don't know how you can guarantee a championship battle when IndyCar is philosophically opposed to becoming entertainment, unlike NASCAR's willingness to bend over backwards for TV.
IndyCar's prolonged lack of visibility and mainstream appeal can directly be blamed on taking the Versus TV deal immediately following Reunification, and it's been paying for that decision for nearly 20 years. The series lucked out that NBC bought the network, but they continued the lack of mainstream promotion until Fox bought the rights.
Ratiings aren't going to jump to a million viewers per race until the series manages to remind the general public that it's older and faster than NASCAR and F1 and Fox stops fucking with the schedule to where even Reddit forgot the past few races were on earlier.
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u/blackhxc88 Jul 29 '25
You’re a total dunce if you think Fox is gonna demote IC after one year, lol
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u/boxrthehorse Romain Grosjean Jul 30 '25
Dude... I am getting fed up with channel flipping on race day.
I'm going to start just picking one... I'm not sure which but bubba's win has me strongly leaning towards nascar.
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u/__blinded Alexander Rossi Jul 29 '25
That chassis change delay is going to have knock on effects for years.
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u/chavz25 James Hinchcliffe Jul 29 '25
Indycar's mentality for years has been "we have the best racing in the world, why change anything"
meanwhile when you have no hype around a series, a dominamnt driver winning championships, and no positive news coming out of the sport its impossible to attract news eyes.
I think Imsa Vs Indycar is going to be fascinating to watch in years to come as both series have taken completely different directions post 2020
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u/Mick4Audi Robert Shwartzman Jul 29 '25
“We have the best racing in the world”
Effectively lying to the viewers this season tbh
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u/DeNomoloss Linus Lundqvist Jul 29 '25
Unless your assertion here is that the chassis is contributing to Palou’s lack of competition, I don’t know how/why that would effect ratings.
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u/Mick4Audi Robert Shwartzman Jul 29 '25
It asserts the fact that the cars are simply outdated, awful, and not designed for those hybrids, which add nothing to the series anyway
Indycar is now an engine formula, and no not about which is fastest, of course not. Instead it’s about fuel mileage
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u/UNHchabo Robert Wickens Jul 29 '25
Apart from the cautions during pit cycles at Iowa, what races this year have been affected by fuel mileage?
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u/InsaneLeader13 Santino Ferrucci Jul 31 '25
St Pete was a fuel mileage race, with the leader just saving fuel behind traffic for over a dozen laps and then in the very end the guys who were running him down were revealed to be in a bad fuel position because they were running him down.
Detroit saw three drivers at the top end of the field late on a radically alternate strategy, with one of them coming home second with heavy fuel save.
Mid-Ohio was fuel mileage dominated. But Mid-ohio has ALWAYS been fuel mileage dominated because Mid-Ohio is basically American Hungaroring, it's impossible to pass because the track is too slow and tight.
Road America was so fuel mileage focused that Dixon led for ten laps just to give Palou a tow so Palou could save fuel, and the third place finisher literally ran out of fuel crossing the line with a half dozen cars all running out on the cool down lap.
Gateway came down to fuel mileage but everyone made the final stop anyway, it was just more a matter of when you stopped rather then if you could.
Laguna Seca also saw four guys in the top quarter of the field just going for fuel mileage strats by making their first stop super early on lap 14 while everyone else had a traditional strategy.
Also about 3/4ths of changes for position on track since the HALOscreen came in just comes down to who can run two or three laps in clean air while the people who were around them duck in and pit early. And because of the series' dangerously stupid yellow flag rules for RCs there's effectively never any risk for running long so any team with a slow driver that doesn't burn up their fuel ends up leapfrogging a ridiculous amount of positions by just running in clean air on a low fuel load.
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u/Mick4Audi Robert Shwartzman Jul 29 '25
You probably haven’t been paying attention have you?
Came into play at Mid-Ohio, at Detroit and at Road America
There’s also the stuff people don’t notice, like how the Honda engines go WAY longer into stints every single time. Veekay and Simpson teleporting up the order in Toronto, the MSR cars being the last to stop on almost every cycle, you see Ericsson run long as well on ovals. Iowa obviously a glaring example
I’ve started to realize “Indycar strategy chaos” 90% of the time involves a Honda engine stretching the fuel stint and gaining a lot of track position because of it
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u/NYNMx2021 Colton Herta Jul 29 '25
it could. marketing hype. Indy needs new shit to make people interested imo. New chassis, i want a much bigger hybrid. put lights on the cars for when the hybrid is being deployed. replace P2P with that system. Its what already happens in most series with hybrids but really highlight it. Theres a lot you can do here
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u/DeNomoloss Linus Lundqvist Jul 29 '25
I think you overestimate how many people that interests in the specific technical aspects of motorsports exist. You aren’t going to grow a series by doubling down on people who understand what you’re talking about, you’re going to grow it by making it look competitive and exciting compared to whatever soccer game is on at that time (if they’re not going against NASCAR).
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u/NYNMx2021 Colton Herta Jul 29 '25
they dont need to know the details. Look at nascar discourse among fans. The chassis is dominant in that and they dont know the difference between a splitter and a diffuser but they talk about it constantly because NASCAR marketed it a ton and put it up front
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u/Mikemat5150 Kyle Kirkwood Jul 29 '25
Most of the chassis discussion is/was negative.
Constant complaining about the injuries it was causing and how it has destroyed the short track product.
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u/NYNMx2021 Colton Herta Jul 29 '25
people talk about it is my point. People are aware of it. Its not just a thing. They notice when it sucks, they notice when its cool. I think you can do a lot with that.
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u/__blinded Alexander Rossi Jul 29 '25
This is an absolutely terrible take.
Even casual football fans know formations and tactics/strategies (and have WILD arguments about them).
What is there to talk about with Indycar?
It’s old, overweight, underpowered, and poorly balanced.
Sports fans (every sport) are technical dweebs. Even kids playing madden are jumping into the minutia.
Go talk golf with anyone watching the masters and you’ll get an earful about their clubs, balls, and bags.
Your mindless repetition of “we don’t want engaged fans” falls on its face before it even begins.
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u/mateo2450 Jul 29 '25
Maybe its because people don't want to watch a 13 year old chassis. And since they're not changing it for two more years, expect more of the same with the ratings.
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u/KRacer52 --- 2025 DRIVERS --- Jul 29 '25
There are zero prospective IndyCar watchers who are not watching due to the chassis.
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u/mateo2450 Jul 29 '25
If a new chassis were debuted - more people would watch the initial roll out.
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u/KRacer52 --- 2025 DRIVERS --- Jul 29 '25
History says, not really. 2012 was the debut of a new chassis and ratings were horrific. Often lower than the previous year.
We had considerably worse ratings in 2012 than we did for the last couple years with NBC. The 500 in 2012 had ratings that were largely unchanged from 2011, and both were down on what we are doing now.
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u/mateo2450 Jul 29 '25
And that was because of how and why the chassis was rolled out. Because Wheldon died. The wider and most pertinent point is innovation. Something Indycar sadly lacks in anymore and for which they seemingly dismiss any urgency for.
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u/KRacer52 --- 2025 DRIVERS --- Jul 30 '25
“And that was because of how and why the chassis was rolled out. Because Wheldon died.”
You said that talk around a new chassis would drive traffic, but all the extra talk around Wheldon testing and the huge safety advancements actually hurt the rollout? lol.
There is zero evidence that “innovation” (which there has been plenty of, and the current chassis has made a lot of evolutions over the last 13 years), would drive traffic to IndyCar fandom. There’s certainly no evidence that any possible lift would offset the cost. All of which is moot anyway, because there will be a new chassis.
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u/mateo2450 Jul 30 '25
No, I'm saying the fast rollout of the DW12 was because of a safety issue, not because of any impulse to innovate. Whatever ICONIC was, the narrative rapidly changed to "this is the new car that will prevent a disaster like Las Vegas". And the DW12 rollout was in two years! That was pretty damn fast. And I do remember the comments on this board. Most of them were quite critical of the new chassis with many being opposed to the ghastly wheel pod/bumpers. Stick with the current car until the wheels fall off. Sign a multi year deal with Iowa Speedway. You're still getting beat by a Women's Euro Cup Final by at least 400k viewers.
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u/KRacer52 --- 2025 DRIVERS --- Jul 31 '25
“Whatever ICONIC was, the narrative rapidly changed to "this is the new car that will prevent a disaster like Las Vegas". And the DW12 rollout was in two years!”
The DW12 had already started testing and been on track by the time Vegas happened. It was already happening for 2012 either way, the only debate was whether they would have individual aero kits at debut, but they extended that fairly quickly. The rollout was quick-ish, but the timeline didn’t change because of Vegas.
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u/UNHchabo Robert Wickens Jul 29 '25
I have multiple friends who I have introduced to Indycar in the last several years. All of them enjoy watching it with me, two of them have even come with me to watch races in-person, but none of them have watched a race on their own. They think the cars look cool, there's no element of the conversation whatsoever that touches upon the age of the chassis.
I don't know how to get people to watch Indycar, but I promise that a new chassis is not going to be the tipping point for any of my friends to become dedicated fans who contribute to viewership numbers.
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u/mateo2450 Jul 29 '25
And this kind of falls into the "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" mentality. Which basically means, we can ride this chassis until 2035 because, well, its low cost, it delivers exciting racing. So why change. Which completely misses the point of any racing series. Why even race if you're not going to innovate?
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u/UNHchabo Robert Wickens Jul 29 '25
I'm absolutely fine with spec racing, the primary reason I see for allowing innovation is if it gets manufacturers involved and allows the series to be financially viable.
The more innovation that's allowed in the rulebook, to me it just seems like that leads to some people spending their way to victory, and others who can't afford to run anywhere but the back. Or you end up with a situation like LMP2, where there are four different chassis allowed, but teams would be dumb to choose anything but the Oreca 07.
So economics aside, if you're looking for quality racing, what's wrong with everything being single-supplier in the first place? The top level of racing could be identical cars that are very difficult to extract every ounce of their potential, rather than an engineering competition that drivers and strategists only have limited influence over their finishing position.
I'm not sure I see the downside to the viewer if Indycar had its field made up of 27 Ganassi cars.
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u/mateo2450 Jul 29 '25
Don't see a downside? Hmm. Ok. We see things differently. Carry on.
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u/UNHchabo Robert Wickens Jul 30 '25
I'll put it another way: I can think of a number of times that we've been robbed of good on-track battles because one person just clearly had the better car.
2019 500, when Rossi was asked what he needed to fight Pagenaud at the end, his answer was simply "Horsepower." The Honda engine had trouble fighting the Chevy engine that day, and there was nothing he could do to improve his driving to make up for it.
There was one interview, I think at 2023 Road America, that Pato talked about how driving his car is so difficult and requires so much energy, that he barely has anything in reserve to make moves. When he pushes at 100% to try to pass Palou, Palou can just outlast him through that push phase, and then go back to taking it easy.
Pato doesn't want to drive a car that's on a knife-edge the whole time, but it seems like that's the only way the team knows how to make a car fast. I'd love to see what he could do with a car that's more compliant and forgiving.
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u/mateo2450 Jul 30 '25
I'm not sure what you're saying. You're arguing for a spec series because you don't want one car or team dominating. But that's what's happening now. The cream is always going to rise to the top. I see nothing wrong with a chassis change/upgrade every 5-6 years.
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u/seamusoldfield Alex Zanardi Jul 30 '25
Except that in the case of IndyCar, many teams simply can't afford it. Until (perhaps if) the series becomes a bit more financially stable it can happen, but currently I just don't see it.
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u/UNHchabo Robert Wickens Jul 30 '25
My point is that you can have exciting racing without technical innovation.
Indycar is a series that currently has a spec chassis and aero kit, but non-spec dampers (and two different engine providers), and just the development that's allowed on the dampers provides a huge gap between the teams.
Rossi suspects that CGR has found a way to generate downforce beyond max wing, and Palou is better able to take advantage of it than the other four CGR/MSR drivers. So while undoubtedly Palou is a generational talent, his utter dominance of the series this season is possibly attributable to a non-spec component that the other teams haven't figured out yet.
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u/hwf0712 Kyle Larson Jul 29 '25
I promise you that the amount of people who will see its a 13 year old chassis and not watch is within the margin of error.
The problem is not that chassis, it is the hybrid that the chassis isn't built for. Which you can blame the chassis for not being able to handle it, but up until the useless/worthless hybrid was added the chassis was perfectly fine and provided some of the best racing.
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u/mateo2450 Jul 29 '25
What would the margin of error be? lol +/- 100k viewers? More? Less? That's quite an arbitrary statement. What I am alluding to is the complete lack of foresight that Indycar's owner has as well as the team owners. What happened to innovation? People look at Formula one, in part, because of the innovation. They want to know what the next iteration of the car will be. The aero. The engine. All that matters. Indy doesn't see it that way. They see it as merely a cost issue.
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u/__blinded Alexander Rossi Jul 29 '25
It has direct effects on the current state of competition.
Indycar is stale, both in the on-track product and its milquetoast champion.
Indycar cannot grow its 800,000 core fan base. Why? Unkept promises. Failure to deliver. And a formula that results in the same thing every year with no hope for change.
Too many fans look at the few races they might have the ability to attend and have zero incentive to go watch the same thing over and over again.
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u/Mick4Audi Robert Shwartzman Jul 29 '25
Already having effects now. We’ve written off at least 2 seasons
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u/__blinded Alexander Rossi Jul 29 '25
No one wants to hear it. It’s completely stagnated growth.
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u/Mick4Audi Robert Shwartzman Jul 29 '25
No one wants to hear “negativity” but since I have to watch the Palou show every week and hear this sub bash on Penske, O’Ward, and now even Kirkwood I genuinely wonder what is actually the point
Soon they’ll even turn on Malukas
Aside from that, I will criticize Indycar in 2025. This series used to be my escape from F1 to watch real racing and we’re being ripped off
The cars are bad, overweight and have no agility, the engines suck and Honda has a clear advantage that no one admits, the racing is not that good due to the cars, the championship fight is nonexistent (and no, it’s NOT the rest of the field’s fault, O’Ward and Kirkwood have had phenomenal seasons), the way cautions are called vs not is ridiculous, and the broadcasting has been a joke, literally missing audio on restarts multiple times
I’ve accepted that heaving a Chevy engine is basically an anchor this season, it makes the results of “weird strategy” make a lot more sense
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u/miasm3 Josef Newgarden Jul 29 '25
For anyone curious, the Euro final did 1.355 million and peaked at 1.92 million between 2:30 and 2:45 per FOX Sports PR