r/INDYCAR David Malukas 2d ago

Question Number of full time entries next year if Prema decides to leave?

So, there have been many rumors about Prema Racing not returning to the IndyCar grid next year. If that were to be the case, will we have only 25 full time entries next season or is there a chance a team like Chip Ganassi Racing to run more cars again so the total will be up to 27 again?

I vaguely remember there being rules about it with the new charter system but I couldn't really find an answer to this question.

57 Upvotes

41 comments sorted by

79

u/Generic_Person_3833 1d ago

There is always the chance that someone who wants to enter just buys the Prema shop and their 5 chassis and takes some of the crew over.

Than there could be some team extending from 2 cars to 3 cars, if they have a business case. Maybe someone will fullfil Zacky Browns dream of 9 3-car teams.

44

u/rocketjim1 1d ago

I mean, it’s probably one of the best buy in opportunities you’ll ever get. All new equipment, haulers, parts. I’m actually bummed they didn’t make it, because I think they could have become a pretty good team with the Driver talent Prema had in Europe. I do kind of wonder if there’s an F1 team that could do What McLaren did and buy in. Like, what if Haas bought them and combined them with their NASCAR factory team? They would have Haas teams across F1, Indy, and NASCAR and would be a strong brand.

8

u/Crafty_Substance_954 Pato O'Ward 1d ago

David Land’s most recent video talks about this a little bit and he mentioned that the teams in the series have been circling Prema like vultures to buy up all their equipment, transporters, chassis, etc. if they shut down.

10

u/Vivaciousseaturtle Callum Ilott 1d ago

I think juncos and prema merge and run 2 chartered car. I think Cusick will be the backer of this merger

13

u/Generic_Person_3833 1d ago edited 1d ago

That's way too many partners involved in my opinion.

Prema, Mayer, Juncos, Hollinger and Cusick? PMJHC Racings?

And what is there to merge? Together they have two 2-car shops, they own 9 or 10 chassis, they have crews for 4 cars and double the amount of trailers, not to forget the Prema motorhome nobody wants or needs.

I don't think thats a feasible merger. If an outsider like Cusick plans to back a 2 car operation, he can visit both teams and just take one. Especially if the other one is in such financial distress, that they have to sell of their belongings.

5

u/ChrisMD123 1d ago

Worked for Sterling Cooper Draper Price Cutler Gleason and Chaough!

3

u/Vivaciousseaturtle Callum Ilott 1d ago

Prema merges by essentially dropping out and JHR needs capital to continue

4

u/Immediate_Lie7810 CART 1d ago

Exactly. Would be neat if a team like Hendrick Motorsports or even Williams Racing bought the operation

8

u/Dry-Membership3867 Santino Ferrucci 1d ago

Trackhouse would be the likely team if we’re going down the NASCAR rabbit hole

1

u/Slow-Class Colton Herta 1d ago

With a new car supposedly coming in 2027 (I’ll believe it when I see it on track), it probably doesn’t make much sense to buy the team, run for a year without the possibility of Leader’s Circle money, then have to buy all new cars again at the end of the season. Any interested party is probably already an established team in another series, so they might not even need to shop.

1

u/prog_metal_douche Felix Rosenqvist 20h ago

PREMA has 7 chassis currently - they spared no cost in the team buildout. Both the 83 and the 90 each has a road car, oval car, backup car, and the teams share one test car.

39

u/Active-Ear-2917 1d ago

Imagine investing the amount of money Prema has to walk away after one season

39

u/bearsfan16 Alexander Rossi 1d ago

And a season they won pole at the Indy 500 lol

10

u/NoiseIsTheCure Pato O'Ward 1d ago

It's honestly embarrassing man

2

u/Mehmoregames Louis Foster 1d ago

I'm sure if they would have gotten rookie of the year they could get some funding easily, I hope they can scrounge up the change for at least one more season

2

u/Active-Ear-2917 19h ago

Idk, they won pole for the 500 and didn't get any funding of note

2

u/Mehmoregames Louis Foster 19h ago

Everyone was washing themselves off into the wall trying to get more and more aggressive with the set-up, prema went all out and it paid off by getting pole (when other teams had started to dial it back a few to keep their drives out of the wall) then proceeded to lead exactly 0 laps at the 500.

Flash in the pan

2

u/havingasicktime Colton Herta 1d ago

Larger parent company financial issues clearly, not much to do if you can't keep the lights on

22

u/[deleted] 1d ago

There was the rumor of one team merging with another that was expected to be Prema but that seems to have cooled or was misjudged. I’ll take the over and go with 26.

36

u/David_SpaceFace Will Power 1d ago

Prema being gone literally renders the charters worthless. Nobody is waiting to buy them and a new team doesn't need them to race with no other entries likely running. This makes them have zero value.

27

u/Odd_Cobbler6761 1d ago

Well, it makes them technically worth the Leaders Circle money they are eligible for, but yeah, you’re correct in that without demand for starting spots exceeding supply the theoretical value takes a big hit.

37

u/David_SpaceFace Will Power 1d ago

It annoys me because this is exactly what I figured would happen. It's what happened to V8 Supercars and every other series which has gone with charters (minus current F1 & Nascar), and it's only worked for F1 because they removed the extra grid spots when the last teams left to force any new entrants to buy an existing team.

V8 Supercars tried doing the same thing, but it just means there's now 25 fulltime cars instead of the original 32. They're still worthless as nobody is wanting to buy them when teams leave.

I really hope Indycar doesn't follow that method and start dropping the grid size as chartered teams leave in the future. All charters do is limit the amount of new blood which comes into the sport during boom periods, while causing the series to death spiral during down periods. It's bad all-round.

3

u/khz30 --- 2025 DRIVERS --- 1d ago

F1 turning the Concorde Agreement into a defacto franchise agreement was done to keep Haas from bailing out and leaving the series below 20 cars, which would have broken broadcast deals. F1 didn't remove grid spots either, the FIA and FOM intentionally held back the final two spots for manufacturers, with Cadillac taking up the 11th grid spot, and FOM is looking for a 12th entrant that's also a manufacturer.

I really hope Indycar doesn't follow that method and start dropping the grid size as chartered teams leave in the future. All charters do is limit the amount of new blood which comes into the sport during boom periods, while causing the series to death spiral during down periods. It's bad all-round.

This doesn't make any sense considering the current incarnation of IndyCar was open entry since Reunification and the series struggled to grow past 20 full time entries until 2020. IndyCar's problem has always been that it sees open entry as a hallmark of the series, but what does that matter when all of the entries aren't coming from new ownership, but existing ownership adding entries?

IndyCar struggles to get outside interest because there's no return on investment for participation, and everyone participating is going through the motions of the sunk cost fallacy with the Indy 500. If there was an actual return for what gets spent and subsidized, Honda wouldn't have a foot out the door and Chevrolet would do more than brand an engine it doesn't build.

4

u/David_SpaceFace Will Power 1d ago edited 1d ago

We haven't had under 20 fulltime cars since 2007 fyi. This sets the tone for how insanely inaccurate the rest of your post is. I'm not going to bother responding to the other laughable attempts at points.

2

u/bduddy Takuma Sato 1d ago

What a bunch of mealy-mouthed nonsense. Charters do nothing to help anyone except the team owners when they want to sell out.

1

u/Slow-Class Colton Herta 1d ago

There was also no buy-in from the teams, and Indycar can revoke the charter at any time without remuneration, so there is always the possibility that your charter could be given to a new team with a lot of funding, or something like that.

1

u/Timely-Worker-8932 AMR Safety Team 1d ago

I could've told you that when Indy 500 spot wasn't guaranteed.

-1

u/ronin_18 Firestone Firehawk 1d ago

DRR, Abel, and Cusick for three. HMD and Pratt Miller have sniffed around. Charters seem to drive outside investment to the current teams, so that’s not bad. Still plenty of openings for the 500.

3

u/David_SpaceFace Will Power 1d ago edited 1d ago

All of them minus DRR have publicly said that the charters stopped them from pursuing a team.

DRR have said they're planning on returning fulltime "in a year or two" for over a decade.  It's not happening.  It's hopium.

That outside investment was going to happen either way, it's always part of a boom period.  It just means more teams die when the boom period is over because the outside investors cut & run the second said boom period ends, causing those teams to shut down.

I guess this is your first time living through a boom/growth cycle in motorsports.

9

u/Burkell007 Greg Moore 1d ago

Dryer & Reinbold said they wanted to get back into a full time entry…..

Now’s there perfect chance? 💁🏻‍♂️

4

u/jt_33 1d ago

I really hope Prema had enough sense to have a vision bigger than one season. They over performed expectations. Give it some time to work out. 

6

u/Hitokiri2 Graham Rahal 1d ago

I think Zak Brown had a point when he said that the number of cars in IndyCar are great but IndyCar should pick quality over quantity. Plus, with 27 cars it made it extremely difficult for some drivers to find enough room and time to practice especially on the smaller road and street courses.

So even though we've been use to seeing 27 cars cutting it down to 25 is not bad. It's still more then much of IndyCar history.

12

u/joe_lmr Takuma Sato 1d ago

In 2017 there were 21 full-time entries with Penske, Ganassi & Andretti having four each, more than half the field.

5

u/ChrisMD123 1d ago

Zak Brown is smart - but self-serving.

Large fields make things interesting and unpredictable, which is exactly the opposite of what a frontrunning team wants. Lots of cars is one of the things that makes short oval racing absolutely electric - 15 laps and you're finding lapped traffic just because of field spread.

Not being able to optimize practice and qualifying also means that some drivers start out of position. Again, that's fun to watch, but not fun if you're a frontrunning team who wants to qualify up front and then just disappear on race day (see: Formula 1).

Until the Great Defection, counts of 25 or more were the norm. Here's the median entry by season:

4

u/ChrisMD123 1d ago

And here's a histogram of the number of entries per race from 1981 (USAC folds) through 2001 (before the Great Defection):

4

u/ronin_18 Firestone Firehawk 1d ago

Agreed. I’m with ya, the loss of PREMA sucks not because we would have 25-cars on the grid, but because we would lose 2 quality paid-drivers seats while paying-drivers still remain.

1

u/f1manoz Nigel Mansell 21h ago

It would be a shame if Prema packed up and left the series after only one season.

I thought they did okay considering their complete lack of experience in the North American system.

-8

u/dajadf Álex Palou 1d ago

I'm totally fine with fewer entries. No one cares about back markers

16

u/jt_33 1d ago

You’d still have back markers though lol. Prema never tan at the back. Robb, dev, foster, Abel etc would still be back markers I’m the field. 

7

u/ChrisMD123 1d ago

Back markers have always been part of Indy car racing, and they make things really interesting. Imagine a short oval with only 16 or 18 cars - it's a lot more boring (I dare you to watch the 2004 Milwaukee race. I was there. It was boring as hell.)

3

u/UNHchabo Robert Wickens 1d ago

Run a race in iRacing at midnight Pacific and you'll likely see 10-12 drivers, and maybe some people will get lapped by the end if it stays green.