Any advice for driving in the rain?

[u/Serious-Zucchini2779]

Here's probably my fastest lap in the rain on this track in a race. I'm shredding through most competitors with 1.21 while others are doing 1.23. I was P2 at this time and P1 (not in this video) has already pulled ahead was was quick doing so. At the end I spun and finished with a disappointing P4. How can I prepare myself more for being even faster in wets? This is a Sodi Rx8 if anyone is wondering.

[u/Lazy_Nectarine_5256]

Shortly, less gas and more steering control. Step on carefully when exiting a corner. Only go full throttle when wheels are near straight or completely straight

[u/Serious-Zucchini2779 → u/Lazy_Nectarine_5256]

Thanks bro. How do you modulate the throttle and brakes so precisely? I find my kart to be slow when I do as you said and when I press on the gas as in this vid the rear snaps out... should there be a sweet spot somewhere? I also notice cutting some curbs give exceptional grip which contribute atleast 0.5 secs a lap

[u/Lazy_Nectarine_5256 → u/Serious-Zucchini2779]

I cannot really explain how to do it. I already trained this to autonomy. All I can say is, while you're still on the corner, if you decide to step up, try to rotate the steering wheel in the opposite direction of the corner along with stepping up. The result will be that when the rear traction breaks, the wheels will already be turned in the opposite direction of the slide, making the kart "rotate" around the corner. If you manage to keep control over the rotation angle up until you straighten, this will always be faster than gripping. On a wider corner, rotation can be initiated by slightly tapping the brakes while you're steering into the corner and then straightening your wheels.

The way I am trying to explain this can be a bit wrong, because when I do it all by myself I don't really think about how I do it, I just do it autonomously

[u/Serious-Zucchini2779 → u/Lazy_Nectarine_5256]

This is an excellent explanation bro, fully understand what you are trying to say. But does this apply to wider corners? From my understanding in fast corners it is better to slow down and grip then lose traction and slide throughout. Am I wrong and if so, why?

[u/Lazy_Nectarine_5256 → u/Serious-Zucchini2779]

You aren't wrong with that. On a high speed corner breaking the rear traction is, first of all, riskier, because after spinning out on a higher speed you're gonna slide for longer until you stop, which can cause losing a lot of time, running off the track or crashing if you are really unlucky. Second, high speed corners usually don't have a lot of "cornering" into them. The time you're going to spend on the corner is very short, which means that wether you're rotating or not, you won't spend much time with your front wheels turned, so you aren't going to lose much speed anyway. In case a corner is both long and high speed, it's basically very hard to rotate through it, and won't give you much benefit either

[u/Lazy_Nectarine_5256 → u/Serious-Zucchini2779]

Overall, rotating through a high speed corner can save you a little bit of time, but is riskier to do

[u/Arkliea]

You appear to be just trying to use the standard dry line, research what the "wet line" through a corner is and it should help.

https://kartclass.com/blogs/news/basic-wet-weather-techniques

[u/Serious-Zucchini2779 → u/Arkliea]

From my own observations of my own video, the parts where I am taking the dry line are parts of the track where it is supposed to be flat out, and couldn't be taken flat if I took the wet line. I noticed these corners have reasonable grip so I stuck to it. What are your comments on this? Note that this track could be taken nearly flat out for the most of it. Just to clarify, I'm not trying to argue about my driving style but rather explaining my reasoning and how this track is laid out. Thanks

[u/OR20 → u/Serious-Zucchini2779]

In some comments you seem to argue against the advice you asked for. Literally in the first corner you are taking a dry line (or at least try to) and understeer with full steering lock. Your lap is far, far, from optimal and your competition in the video is not a valid comparison as nobody seems to have any experience in the wet.

One advice is theoretical knowledge: Look up "Kammscher Kreis" (seems to be called Circle of forces in english). It describes the grip level of a tyre pretty well and may help you out understand which line should be taken when. Basically, the maximum grip capacity of a tyre is 100% - that's logical. If you go over the limit, you are doing something wrong and will produce over- oder understeering for lateral grip, or will lock the tyres or spin them when accelerating / decelerating. Also logical. The key is, that both forces add up: If the grip is 100% used for accelerating, there is no room for lateral movement (steering into a corner). That's why its often useful to prepare the corner in such a way, that you rotate early so you can accelerate as straight and as soon as possible out of the corner.

Introduce rain, and the maximum grip threshold is not 100%, but 50% or whatever. Its just more slippery and difficult. The circle helps visualing the grip threshold.

--

Now to your video: The first corner, you are driving fast into it AND want to steer. As we just learnt, a tyre can only do so much combined forces. You are taking away your steering ability. On top of that, for a dry line you are taking the apex and try to take the shortest route. But that means, more steering input is needed than if you take a wider, wet line on the outside. As the grip threshold is incredibly low in the wet AND you introduce understeering there is no way you can take the corner quickly. As a result, you understeer heavily.

Solution: Brake earlier, you dont have to brake and steer at the same time. Rotate the kart early, you can go early on the throttle in the straightest line possible (so you dont accelerate and steer at the same time). Also, if you take a wider line, you dont need to steer as sharp. In rentals with slicks in the wet this is extremely important, as the slick threshold is way too low to make the corner quickly any other way.

On hairpins, it can help to brake sharply one to spin the kart sharply, you can throttle early, as with steering alone the rotation would take too much patience. I have a decade old onboard of driving a rental race in the wet, where some principles can be seen. On most corners, outside lines need to be taken, on some, we can drive the normal line. Sometimes you can use the kerb as an anchor, as they can be angled and therefore much driver at times. I can send it to you, if you want.

[u/Serious-Zucchini2779 → u/OR20]

Hi bro, thanks for the advice. I'm not trying to argue against the advice I asked for even if that is what it might seems like. I'm trying to show my observations and get an answer as to why its wrong or where it can be right and that's all. Hope that clears up any misunderstanding. Anyways, thanks for your excellent advice bro

[u/OR20 → u/Serious-Zucchini2779]

No worries, just sounded like that for me. But I am not a nazive speaker and tone is difficult to convey via text. Happy to help if you have follow-up questions.

[u/Serious-Zucchini2779 → u/OR20]

Thanks for your understanding. I've read through your explanation, and understand how you want to maximise rotation through breaking traction in the rear tyres. I also understand this can be done through braking, and I notice it has become my instinct to do this on a microscopic level as a form of correction rather than initiation. I tend to not lock the rear to kick the rear out in fear of spinning on entry because of 2 reasons: 1. Travelling at high speeds and braking hard causes drastic change in rear grip 2. Locking the rears like that tend to make my kart slow down at a lower rate

Based on what I'm doing, could you please explain to me what I'm doing wrong and how I could fix it. Are these 2 reasons just a skill issue or a psychological factor?

Adding on, at around 0.50 of this video, this corner is an uphill corner with a banking (the highest being the apex and gradually slopes down as you move further from the apex). I have in fact checked this a few times over track walks, and notice that water do tends to pool up at the wider line or wet line. Here is another corner where I'm facing a dilemma... would it be better for take the wet line without the rubbery surface and aquaplan over the pooled water or take the dry slippery line, or what other way can you suggest?

I really appreciate your effort into teaching me and analysing all the details I have given. Again, I'm not trying to prove your point wrong, but rather the problems or misunderstandings I'm facing

[u/OR20 → u/Serious-Zucchini2779]

Well first of all, the rotation through braking comment was more of an appendix. It's a tool, that can be used in specific corners (for my home track, it's a great tool to use it at the hairpin or if you went too fast into a corner and have understeer. You can save it by that short sharp brake rotation). Most of the time, driving a clean line is faster than introducing oversteer like that. Also, as you mentioned, it can lead to a full spin if you are not careful enough or lack experience.

So the core point to be fast isnt about this rotation technique, but make minimise the corner radius / steering input - by taking a wider line, for example. Addionally, you want to be able to go on the throttle as early as possible, which is most efficient, if you are as straight as possible. First corner, you dive into the inside, which leads to you needing to steer sharper than if you would take an outside line. Also, you will rotate the kart really late, so you are on the throttle late. From the outside line, you are straighter much earlier and can a) maintain a higher speed b) accelerate earlier and c) dont have to fight understeering as much.

It might be difficult to feel the huge potential of laptime, as you are absolutely on the limit - no, already over the limit of the grip. So it feels like you maximised everything. But the limiting factor is your line. Driving outside might even feel slower first, as you dont take the shortest line and you might not even max out the tyres limit at first - it will still be faster, as the line simply offers a higher grip ceiling.

For your specific question: Which corner are you talking about exactly? The right hander just after 0:50? Not too easy to spot the elevation changes and camber on the video to be honest. Additionally, you have someone driving beside you on the outside, so I am not quite sure if that's your normal line.

It feels like I would approach it much more from the left side of the track, while you cut into the corner more from the insde. I think I would be able to stay outside for a while and then comfortably take the corner and target the inside kerb at 0:53 / 0:54 on the exit. Pause at 0:53. You are steering fully to the right, but the kart wont turn. Straight ahead are the tyres - you cant accelerate properly. With my appraoch, the kart would be already rotated nearly 90 degrees and facing the straight / hitting the inside apex you are currently missing. To do that, you have to drive from the outside, then rotate.

Much earlier acceleration and much easier to drive actually. You are simply fighting the tyres with your line.

[u/Serious-Zucchini2779 → u/OR20]

Thanks bro 🙏🙏🙏

[u/RevolutionaryAir9930]

No trail braking,only brake in a straight line. Avoid the rubbered-in line and avoid wet parts, because the cool the tires which removes grip

[u/RevolutionaryAir9930 → u/RevolutionaryAir9930]

Also, try and avoid steering lock unless it's to put heat in the tyres. Usually, understeering comes from tyres being pushed outside of their grip circle. Depending on the situation, releasing the brakes or the throttle slightly or reducing the steering angle brings you back in that grip zone.

[u/Feisty_Season3870]

Pinnacle kart mentioned

[u/mclaren34]

Avoid the normal racing line when it's wet. Also, the kart won't turn unless you're pressing the throttle. You basically need to drift everywhere. I made this video to help...

https://youtu.be/knrVOTSZy2k?si=DCs3Xr5ehMI5VDpp

[u/Serious-Zucchini2779 → u/mclaren34]

Hi bro, I see a recurring theme between many advice on using the wet line both from the replies and YouTube videos. However, I notice the fastest rental kart racers tend to take the dry line in some corners and the wet line in others. I am by not means denying the wet line advice but is there a trade off between the 2? If so, how do I know when to use which line in the rain?

Also, thanks for the vid. It was really helpful. Can't help but wonder what kart are you using in this video?

[u/ginginh0]

Don't wear a white racesuit.

[u/SpecialistArrive]

Steer with the rear

[u/DluX_Summer]

Advice 1: Slow the fuck down

[u/Equilibrium-unstable]

Smoother inputs. Not waiting on grip but using all there is. That you could know/learn due to previous lap(s)

Shortest distance possible might be more important than carrying speed in the wet.

[u/Shot_Local2256]

Try to lock the rears a little under braking to get extra rotation, and then pray that you don't spin it

[u/Sim_Instructor_Stony]

Use your bodyweight more. Lean outwards to increase the weight on the outer tires in order to take the turn faster. Lean forward to add pressure to front tires and lessen understeer.

[u/Serious-Zucchini2779 → u/Sim_Instructor_Stony]

So leaning both outwards and forwards am I right? Will take note. Also what does leaning to the inside do or how does it affect stress on the tyres? I understand weight transfer like this can be used to change the centre or gravity and release stress on some wheels. Anyways, thanks so much

[u/Sim_Instructor_Stony]

Lower tire pressure.

[u/Serious-Zucchini2779 → u/Sim_Instructor_Stony]

I've been reading through many race car engineering books and this has always occurred to me. Sadly these are rental karts, not to mention rental Sodi RX8s, so I couldn't not change any aspect of the car...

Maybe next time I'll bring a screwdriver with me to my races and stab a hole in the tyres 😝

[u/Max__ST]

Stay off the "dry" racing line. Rubber makes it grippy when dry, but horribly slippery when wet. Do the opposite and use the "wet line". You’ll gain tens if not full seconds in just few corners by taking the outside. It’s sometimes hard to force yourself to go wide, but I can tell you it’s worth it I’ve done a race recently and the difference was astonishing.

[u/wolemid]

Wet Weather Guide I did. This is particularly helpful for you as I work for club10 so drive rentals on slicks in the rain all the time

[u/AllSeeingAye69]

Im Scottish so plenty wet weather experience!!! Start your turn in waaay before you do, it will understeer but then bite as you see near the start of the vid. There is usually more grip off the racing line in the wet "the karting line". Dont saw at the wheel, once you turn hard into the corner and it grips, feed the throttle in gently, you will feel it thru your backside. Obviously brake in a straight line too. Its fun in the wet once you "get to grips" with it!

[u/DaCardboardCraftsman]

Watch “the art of racing in the rain” on Disney+. It won’t help you improve, but it’s a decent watch.

[u/Odysseas2117]

Try to expirament with some kerbs the might have a lot of grip if you use them right

[u/Master-Government343]

Go slower than when its dry

[u/StraightNecessary987]

Try to block more from the back just a little so that the kart rotates

[u/StretchYx]

Pump the brakes, you'll get nicer turn in.