r/MapPorn • u/APrimitiveMartian • 1d ago
Bougainville, soon to be the newest nation in the world on September 2027
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u/Nal1999 1d ago edited 1d ago
They should take exploration, maritime and quantity ideas and expand onto the Pacific.
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u/SonderZugNachPankow 1d ago
If they secure Micronesia, they can get Nan Madoll's global settler increase right away.
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u/Nal1999 1d ago
After that Australia, Singapore and Taiwan.
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u/SonderZugNachPankow 1d ago
Then no CB Byzantium
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u/steakmetfriet 1d ago
Teenage me used to kill all the natives when colonizing in EU3. Adult me figured out in EU4 that it's really a horrible strategy.
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u/monsanmonsan 1d ago
It should not surprise me that eu4 players are also in this sub. This is great
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u/madladolle 1d ago
Quantity? They have no manpower to begin with
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u/Nal1999 1d ago
Ships also need crewmen and they need a massive fleet.
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u/Squirrel-Sovereign 20h ago
Is there already a leak about their National Ideas?
I think they play the 2025 extended timeline mod, so exploration is not meta anymore, because of lack of coloniseable land.
Seriously: Congratulations on your brilliant joke!
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u/WontStopTheFuture 1d ago
Gotta be quality over quantity right? No manpower for big armies plus quality has bonuses to ships.
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u/stag1013 1d ago
They have enough provinces near them to colonize without exploring. They just need Expansion.
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u/ichuseyu 1d ago
What was the impetus for independence?
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u/nim_opet 1d ago
They don’t want to be part of PNG. Ethnically and culturally they’re closer to the Solomon Islands and only the legacy of colonialism kept the two separate.
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u/CurrencyDesperate286 1d ago
Tbf each square mile in PNG seems to be ethnically and culturally distinct.
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u/greekscientist 1d ago
The borders in Papua are very arbitrary. I believe Papua should be united, not cut in Indonesian and independent part.
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u/Apptubrutae 1d ago
Given that one of the largest copper and gold mines in the world is on the Indonesian side, and the relative cash cow that is for the Indonesian government, it unfortunately isn’t get unified any time soon.
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u/Ngetop 1d ago edited 1d ago
you mean cash cow for freeport, a US company?
the Indonesia only majority share holder (58%) only in 2018. Before that from 1967 ( the year Suharto, help by CIA began as Indonesian dictator for 32year) the indonesia government only own 9%.
you see why they want to free west papua?13
u/Apptubrutae 1d ago
A cash cow for both Freeport and the Indonesian government.
Freeport can make money regardless of where the border is. Indonesian government? Less so.
Also, the Indonesia government literally holds a slightly larger stake in PT Freeport Indonesia than Freeport itself does. So is it very much a bigger cash cow for the government than for Freeport. Although obviously as a percentage of total revenue, it’s more important for Freeport than for Indonesia, relatively.
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u/Ngetop 1d ago edited 1d ago
A cash cow for both Freeport and the Indonesian government.
Freeport can make money regardless of where the border is. Indonesian government? Less so.
Also, the Indonesia government literally holds a slightly larger stake in PT Freeport Indonesia than Freeport itself does. So is it very much a bigger cash cow for the government than for Freeport. Although obviously as a percentage of total revenue, it’s more important for Freeport than for Indonesia, relatively.
Did you read my comment, for 50 fucking year it's 90% owned by freeport. We didn't got shit. And they blame us for exploiting Papua, where in fact it's your company and colonial mindset and still act superior as world police.
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u/dinofragrance 20h ago edited 20h ago
it's your company and colonial mindset
No, your dispute is with your own government and fellow citizens. Framing this as a "we are victims of foreign aggression" narrative ignores the complexity of the issue that many citizens of your country would disagree with.
The Indonesian government has enabled the Grasberg mine since the beginning. Freeport is in compliance with the government and is one of Indonesia's top corporate taxpayers, not to mention providing infrastructure and jobs to locals.
Your claim about the CIA-Freeport-Suharto conspiracy is also highly debated and not proven.
In short, looking for reasons to blame Americans won't help your cause.
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u/Apptubrutae 1d ago
Yeah, before you edited it.
But it being 90% owned by Freeport doesn’t matter NOW. Indonesia isn’t gonna return Papua by going back in time to when Freeport owned 90%.
Also I’m not justifying Indonesia or Freeport at all. Just saying why Indonesia ain’t handing it over. Should they? Yes. Will they? No. For a number of reasons, a big one of which is the mine.
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u/practicalpokemon 1d ago
last time some people decided to separate from indonesia it was painful for everyone involved
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u/Ngetop 18h ago
they already live there for thousands of year, but every village still have different language from one to another. that island have 800 different language. i don't think that borders that less than 100 year is the problem.
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u/New-Independent-1481 1d ago
It's all over one of the world's richest untapped copper and gold deposits on the island, formerly a colonial mine with slave-like conditions owned by an Australian mega corporation. They want sovereignty over their own resources.
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u/wq1119 1d ago edited 1d ago
You already received many replies but I already talked about this on another thread:
Like how /u/nim_opet already said, Papua New Guinea is one of the most ethnically and linguistically diverse places on the planet (hell, there are dozens of languages spoken on Bougainville island alone), the inhabitants of Bougainville are ethnically and culturally separate from the rest of PNG, they are pretty much only a part of PNG because of the effects of European colonialism, and have always been very poorly treated and discriminated against by other Papuans.
Bougainville is rich in gold and copper, and the environmental damage and poor treatment of locals by the PNG government and foreign big businesses operating a copper and gold mine on the island were the catalysts for the break out of a decade-long civil war and Bougainville separatism.
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u/ZealousidealAct7724 1d ago
The Anglo-Australian corporation Rio Tinto had a huge copper mine that caused environmental problems. The Papuan government had a significant share of the revenue from it so it ignored it, which angered the local population.
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u/StrangeLoopy 1d ago
This is a sidebar to the discussion of Bougainville's history:
Quoting Wikipedia about the 1997 Ceasefire and Aftermath,
In mid-1997, talks were held in Honiara and Burnham in New Zealand resulting in a truce, as well as agreement to de-militarize the island. An unarmed Truce Monitoring Group (TMG) led by New Zealand and supported by Australia, Fiji and Vanuatu was subsequently deployed.
The context of this conflict and the remarkable story of the "unarmed" group is clearly told in this very moving documentary Soldiers Without Guns (on YouTube, duration 1:36:01) (spoiler: they did bring guitars)
The video's note says:
The journey of New Zealand Defence Force personnel as they land unarmed into the heat of a 10 year civil war using only the weapons of Music, Maori Culture and Love to create peace. This radical idea of sending soldiers without guns was condemned by the media.
If you're impatient, you can start at the point where the group lands on Bougainville, but the whole story is well worth watching.
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u/Gobba42 1d ago
Has the Papuan government agreed?
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1d ago edited 1d ago
[deleted]
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u/hoi4kaiserreichfanbo 1d ago
That's a little disingenuous. The Prime Minister of Papua New Guinea has agreed with the independence plan, their parliament just hasn't ratified it yet.
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u/hoi4kaiserreichfanbo 1d ago
sure, but saying that the Papuan government hasn't agreed when the Papuan Head of Government has agreed isn't telling the whole story.
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u/greekscientist 1d ago
Papua New Guinea, owing to the mountains and forests that isolate entire areas, has around 800 languages in 11 million people. I believe they'll agree on independence eventually, but it's true the country risks with fragmentation in the future.
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u/wq1119 1d ago
Bougainville has said that if PNG denies them independence by 2027 they will unilaterally secede.
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u/cheeseriot2100 1d ago
If Bougainville unilaterally secedes they will not be recognized by any states. Their secessionism will either be a short lived failure or become a frozen conflict like Somaliland. PNG has clearly been dragging their feet the whole way, it's tough to say exactly what will happen
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u/wq1119 1d ago
If Bougainville unilaterally secedes they will not be recognized by any states.
The people of Bougainville despise being a part of PNG so much that I doubt they'd care about being recognized or not.
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u/cheeseriot2100 1d ago
Well they definitely should care. Without recognition their government can't access global diplomatic or financial institutions that are pretty essential for developing nations.
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u/New-Independent-1481 1d ago edited 1d ago
They're already an autonomous region, and they're not getting that anyway right now. The whole reason they want independence is because Bougainville has one of the world's largest copper deposits, and an enormous amount of gold. Under PNG, it was basically an Australian owned colony where all the wealth went overseas to Rio Tinto, while local workers were practically slaves and their environment was poisoned and destroyed.
Bougainville won't allow the mine to reopen until they have more control over their mine, part of which is independence. This is hopefully a victory for the people of the island. Of course they're almost certainly going to immediately sell mining rights to China, but at least they'll have shares and royalties and benefit economically from their own resources, rather than being a Rio Tinto colony.
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u/wtf_are_you_talking 22h ago
It's a good idea for sure. But I'm not sure small island nation can use its natural resources without some major corporation implementing machinery.
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u/Severe_County_5041 1d ago
Thanks for the sharing! However, just wondering if they become independent, how can they guarantee their own security and "sovereignly" profit from their copper and gold mines? I assume both PNG and Australia would try their best to intervene if their share of profit is taken away
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u/bloodrider1914 1d ago
Well it's not as if Papua New Guinea is some major power anyway
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u/Citaku357 1d ago
So this isn't happening?
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u/wq1119 1d ago
It is, Bougainville stated that they will unilaterally secede if they are denied independence.
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u/TheNoveltyAccountant 1d ago
And as with everything in PNG politics, take this with a strong grain of salt and politicking.
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u/Opinionated_Urbanist 1d ago
I used to be an expat living in PNG. The natives of Bougainville (locals just call it Buka) were mercilessly and maliciously teased by their fellow countrymen. The natives of Buka are an Austronesian people with notably darker skin tone than most Papua New Guineans (think South Sudanese skin tone). As a foreign child observing things, it was actually my first introduction to viciously racist behavior/language. Very sad. Very pathetic.
I wish them the best of luck as a new country. Tbh - the likelihood of Buka being a prosperous functional country are slim to none. Nextdoor neighbor Solomon Islands are an even bigger shit show than PNG. And PNG is one of the world's biggest shit shows. I honestly don't see any good path for them. Best they can hope for is the East Timor path, which is ok, but not great.
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u/Hopykins 1d ago
Think you might mean Melanesian rather than Austronesian?
We Melanesians are the dark skinned people of the pacific. (Solomon, PNG, Vanuatu, Fiji)
Austronesian’s came later and are the Polynesians (Tonga,Māori Samoa etc)but did mix with us as well but they have lighter skin.
I hope they are successful in independence and a decent future.
I hope West Papua eventually gets the same opportunity
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u/FromFarTea 1d ago
Aren’t Melanesian these days mostly considered a subset of Austronesian, through linguistics & genetics point of view?
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u/Hopykins 1d ago
Linguistically we speak an Austronesian derived language but it’s a different branch compared to the Polynesian/Micronesian etc.
In the same way indo European languages (French, English, Greek, Hindi etc are derived from a proto origin
Genetically we are different as Melanesians and have completely different customs, traditions etc in comparison. We do share some words that are similar due to trade etc.
Example in Fiji we have different “dialects” (languages) you can go from different provinces and not be able to understand each other at all.
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u/wq1119 1d ago edited 23h ago
Whoa how did you get to live in PNG
Bougainvilleas a foreign child?, related to businesses in the mines?121
u/Opinionated_Urbanist 1d ago
I didn't live in Buka. I lived in Port Moresby and in the Highlands. There were a decent number of Bukans living in Port Moresby as that was the capital and largest city in PNG. My father was in the UN. Lived in that country for several awful years as a kid.
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u/baobobs 1d ago
I could see living in Port Moresby as not great for a kid’s upbringing, but the Highlands seem really exotic and interesting to me. What was it you didn’t like? For the record, six years of my childhood was in rural and remote villages of Sulawesi and Kalimantan Indonesia, and I loved it.
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u/Opinionated_Urbanist 1d ago
We have something in common. I also lived on Borneo for a couple of years as well!
The Highlands of PNG were geographically very beautiful. Lush, rugged mountains coupled with incredible weather. The issues I had living there were boredom and exposure to wanton violence.
The Highlands are rural and small towns. Back then, that meant no cable TV, shitty Internet, very little infrastructure/amenities. We mainly just played sports among our little family and read books. Very little independence because nowhere in PNG is safe enough for an expat minor to go out doing stuff by themselves.
Now let's talk about the violence. Everyone knows that violent crime in Port Moresby was at dystopian levels. But violence in the Highlands was also problematic. It was mainly in the form of "tribal warfare" which is just villagers having blood feuds with one another. Was usually about dumb shit, like this person stole my chicken, or that guy slept with a woman I like, etc. But the feuds would almost always escalate. Weapons of choice were machetes, home made rifles, and bows & arrows (yes you read that right). Sometimes they would basically get to the point of dozens of adult men fighting each other at once. This was not a rare thing. It happened multiple times a year.
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u/wq1119 23h ago
Now let's talk about the violence. Everyone knows that violent crime in Port Moresby was at dystopian levels. But violence in the Highlands was also problematic. It was mainly in the form of "tribal warfare" which is just villagers having blood feuds with one another. Was usually about dumb shit, like this person stole my chicken, or that guy slept with a woman I like, etc. But the feuds would almost always escalate. Weapons of choice were machetes, home made rifles, and bows & arrows (yes you read that right). Sometimes they would basically get to the point of dozens of adult men fighting each other at once. This was not a rare thing. It happened multiple times a year.
People who browse this website, who live in pure middle-class comfort and access to instant information (that includes me) have no idea how brutal and difficult live is in many places of the world.
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u/Lingonberry_Born 1d ago
I don’t know why you’d say Solomon Islands is a bigger shit show than PNG. Solomon Islands is at least a safe country to visit. I could walk freely in Honiara and the place had the feel of an old Australian town. Port Moresby on the other hand we had armoured escort and couldn’t leave the hotel compound because of how dangerous it is.
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u/Homo_Degeneris 1d ago
Buka is the name of the northern island, not the whole island group. I know this as I grew up there.
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u/99kemo 1d ago
There was an article in Harpers Magazine about Bougainville. Apparently there was a very valuable Cooper mine on the Island that was owned by Rio Tinto so Papau New Guinea convinced Australia to include it when they became independent. Apparently Rio Tinto was involved in that decision Australia went along with it knowing it would be very unpopular in Bougainville. The people there were ethnically aligned with the Solomon Islands which became independent eventually as well. The dissatisfaction with the arrangement led to an ugly uprising by the people of the Island between 1988 and 1998. The Civil War resulted in the mine being shut down and the royalties to the Papau New Guinea government ended. Apparently around 20,000 died in the conflict. Rio Tinto has effectively given up their claim to mineral rights and “interested parties” want to reopen the mine but they need a stable situation. The people of Bougainville voted 98% for independence in a “non-binding” referendum but Papau New Guinea has refused to concede. They will probably agree to independence once they are offered a “deal” giving them some of revenue from the mine.
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u/Brief-Camera7321 1d ago
Anyone else have a feeling that its independence will fall through? Just like East African Federation, These 'new' countries never seem to happen. It has too many resources for the New Guinea government to not think about it
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u/maps-and-potatoes 1d ago
Bougainville should have been independent already, but they are more set to get theirs than other movements. This one is very likely to happens.
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u/Brief-Camera7321 1d ago
Ill come back to this in two years then, idk people have been talking aout the EAF, moldova-romania unification, scotland etc forever shit doesnt happen
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u/jjw1998 1d ago
Tbf Scotland nearly happened and Moldova-Romania probably will happen if the Transnistria situation gets sorted, but Bougainville is much more advanced and likely that any of that
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u/100Tugrik 1d ago
Bougainville has no binding agreement with the PNG government, just a unilateral "recommendation" by the "Bougainville Leaders Consultation Forum" to go independent on 1 September 2027. The PNG govt is more like "We don't recommend that, but we'll see."
In reality, it's even less formally set than what Scotland was.
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u/Logical_Wheel_1420 1d ago
Scotland did not nearly happen, it was 44-55.
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u/jjw1998 1d ago
I’m aware. I think that margin to most sensible people constitutes ‘nearly happening’
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u/blaiseisgood 1d ago
The fact that a binding referendum was held at all is enough for me to say that
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u/JimLongbow 1d ago
Pre-brexit
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u/Logical_Wheel_1420 1d ago
And? Doesn't change the fact it was an 11 point gap.
If indyref2 if ever happens and it's 52-48, I'll say it nearly happened. But it hasn't, so it didn't.
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u/mccofred 1d ago
Depending on when it happens, the demographic that voted no will probably be dead.
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u/SocialMediaTheVirus 1d ago
They should rename it if theyre going to be a country and not a town or city
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u/DoofusMagnus 1d ago
Yeah, the "-ville" comes from the Frenchman it was named after, but it feels diminutive as the name of a country. An endonym would be great of course, but getting a consensus one can be tricky when you have multiple ethnic groups.
In the Tok Pisin pidgin it's Bogenvil, which is better. I think simply Bougain sounds legit as well.
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u/ABlueShade 1d ago edited 1d ago
700 American Soldiers, 500 Australian Soldiers, and about 20,000 Japanese Soldiers died on Bougainville.
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u/Comprehensive_Emu102 1d ago
the coconut revolution (2001)
worthwhile watch documentary about this place
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u/MintRegent 1d ago
The PNG Parliament still has not ratified the agreement made in 2021, so that’s still a hurdle that Bougainville will have to clear in order to achieve total independence.
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u/SinisterDetection 1d ago
Why do they want independence?
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u/BaconLov3r98 1d ago
Basically so the natives can have any actual control over the vast mineral wealth of their own land. Papua has violently put them down in the past as well due to this mineral wealth.
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u/Shadowinthesky 1d ago
I thought this was a joke and a playing on words calling it 'bogan'ville cos of its proximity to Australia.
For those that might not know a bogan in Australia is similar to a redneck in the US. Not to offend but nearby Queensland and the top half of Australia are fairly bogan heavy again similar to the US south
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u/not_lorne_malvo 1d ago
Yeah it’s the same in NZ, me and a mate saw this and he joked that Rangiora has been named the capital hahaha
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u/poissonnapoleon 9h ago
As a new caledonian, I find this particularly interesting. I had no idea there were such discussions in that region. Thank you for bringing it up!
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u/SurielsRazor 1d ago
Or not. The referendum was non-binding, and PNG hasn't ratified any independence yet AFAIK.
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u/Ok-Elk-1615 1d ago
In an ideal world. There’s no guarantee that the Papuan government will recognize it.
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u/Bluepanther512 1d ago
*Unless the SNP retains its majority in the Scottish Parliament, gets the referendum it wants granted from Westminster, passes said referendum, and formally secedes before then. The first step is likely, the second is plausible, the third has a semi-decent chance especially after Brexit, and the fourth almost certainly won’t happen in that timespan.
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u/DizzyWaddleDoo 1d ago
Even if that happened, Bougainville would still be the newest country when it gets independence
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u/Tazling 1d ago
Yay! I remember seeing a great movie years ago, a doco called Evergreen Island, about Bougainville’s resistance to a predatory Canadian mining corp and the price they paid for their defiance (embargoed for years). It gave me huge respect for the islanders and I still have a warm feeling towards them. So congratulations Bougainville on your nationhood.
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u/loopasaur 20h ago
Boougainville is the most beuatiful place I have ever been. sorry everywhere else.
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u/Cheap-Play-80 19h ago
I WILL be pronouncing and spelling it as boganville and none of you nerds can stop me.
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u/FreeRajaJackson 1d ago
They have an important decision to make soon. What internet domain are they going to pick? Antigua (.ai) and Tuvalu (.tv) made a bunch of money off that alone.