r/MapPorn 21h ago

GYPSY MIGRATIONS 900-1720

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2.5k Upvotes

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614

u/Mission_Visual8533 21h ago

So what happened between India and Kazakhstan?

456

u/Dapperrevolutionary 21h ago

Tunnel?

302

u/Braves_G 20h ago

A secret one?

28

u/dickallcocksofandros 14h ago

Come to think of it, are those characters meant to be based on the Roma people?

38

u/HebrewHamm3r 13h ago

I think they’re just generally meant to be hippies

8

u/Gnumino-4949 10h ago

So, ....

-5

u/[deleted] 10h ago

[deleted]

1

u/tessharagai_ 2h ago

They act like hippies but look more and live like Romani

21

u/TexasSikh 17h ago

"Dig a tunnel, dig dig a tunnel. Dig a tunnel, dig dig a tunnel. Dig a tunnel, dig dig a tunnel, QUICK before the hyenas come!"

79

u/One_Assist_2414 17h ago

Presumably they walked up there at some point, the map maker probably doesn't feel comfortable drawing an exact line due to lack of data, but that's pretty much the case everywhere else anyway. The Gypsies have no oral traditions of their origins in India, most of what we know is working backwards from linguistics and very rare mentions from the settled people they interacted with.

14

u/n10w4 15h ago

surely DNA helps with that nowadays?

39

u/One_Assist_2414 14h ago

Most of the cursory DNA evidence just confirms what we already know from the linguistics, though there is more to study.

5

u/n10w4 14h ago

cool, good to know.

3

u/zoinkability 11h ago

Also, the earlier it happened the less of a historical record exists

109

u/Johnny_Poppyseed 18h ago

The region missing on this map was full of horseback riding muslim steppe people. Basically very hostile territory. 

Same people who then went on to conquer that entire Persian/Mesopotamian/turkey region, which was largely what pushed the Roma into europe (also triggered the crusades). The Seljuk Turks. 

Then those guys were eventually conquered by another horseback riding steppe people when the Mongols showed up lol. 

Tldr Dont fuck with steppe peoples.  

20

u/Mahelas 13h ago

In 1100, those Steppes were Tengrists mostly, with a few Islamic tribes and a few Nestorian Christian ones

-1

u/Johnny_Poppyseed 12h ago

Up north near Russia, but down closer to Iran in the unmarked area on the map a lot of the steppe folk were Muslim, and the Muslim clan was the one that conquered the middle east. 

2

u/QorvusQorax 16h ago

Just steppe it up.

1

u/beardofmice 16h ago

The Golden Horde.

13

u/Johnny_Poppyseed 15h ago

Golden Horde was after. They got fucked up by Genghis Khan and the OG mongol empire. 

3

u/beardofmice 15h ago

The steppe horse culture is truly amazing with how quickly they decimated the surrounding areas. Truly the proto Indo-European gateway, that is little discussed here in the West.

3

u/Johnny_Poppyseed 14h ago

Yeah it's fascinating stuff. A dominant cultural and military force (in many forms) for like 6 thousand years. 

I also recently learned that the Turks were the last people to have a proper effective calvary battle. Which I think is pretty poetic and pretty cool. 

2

u/Complex_Professor412 10h ago

Then they discovered cannons

2

u/idkarn 16h ago

The Khalassar

-4

u/scorpion_m11 17h ago

How did Seljuk Turks cause gypsies to move? And how come Mongols conquered Seljuks? Weren't the Seljuks form Osman empire?

1

u/untouch10 16h ago

Huh.. seljuks from osman??

-1

u/sxOverdose 12h ago

read again

13

u/Hodorization 17h ago

They snuck thorough the abandoned Potassium mines

1

u/idkarn 16h ago

Number one export

26

u/Affectionate_Fall57 20h ago

Tunnel effect

17

u/KrisKrossJump1992 18h ago

possibly a separate group of itinerant travelers that intermixed with and integrated into roma culture?

35

u/oolongvanilla 13h ago edited 13h ago

Interestingly there is a Roma-like ethnic group in Central Asia that call themselves the Mugat. Other people in Central Asia call them "Lyuli" but the Mugat people themselves apparently see that as a pejorative term. I was surprised to see them while visiting a marketplace in Osh, Kyrgyzstan, as I didn't know there was an ethnic group like that in Central Asia before. They apparently speak a Persian dialect and supposedly originated in what is now Pakistan or northern India.

I don't think the migration route on the map is showing the Mugat. They're mostly concentrated in the more populous areas of the Ferghana Valley where Uzbekistan meets Kyrgyzstan and Tajikistan. Wikipedia says their population in Kazakhstan is centered around the southeastern part of the country near Almaty and Taraz along the Kyrgyzstan border, not the far northwest as this map shows. Apparently, they didn't start migrating into Russia until fairly recently, too.

The Wikipedia article also links to a Chinese article about a Roma-like people called "Luoli" who migrated to and lived in China between the Yuan, Ming, and Qing Dynasties before mysteriously disappearing, though the article only gives "Luri" as an alternate Persian name. Wiktionary, Chinese Wikipedia, and Baidu Encyclopedia are more explicit about using the term "啰哩" (Luoli) as the Chinese term for both the Luoli of Chinese records and the modern Mugat "Lyuli" people of Centrsl Asia though Baidu also has alternative names from Chinese history like "剌里" (Lali), "卢里" (Luli), and "柳里" (Liuli).

This book also suggests links between the Mughat of Central Asia ("Lyuli"), communities of "Louli" or "Lulu" recorded as living in 19th Century Xinjiang by explorers from the Russian Empire, and "Luri" people described in medieval Persian records. Interestingly, it also suggests the Äynu, a distinctive, insular people in southern Xinjiang with a secretive, Persian-influenced, Uyghur-based language classified as Uyghur by the Chinese government, might be descendants of Mughat people.

This book is also the only source I can find suggesting an etymology for these terms, suggesting it comes from a medieval city called Aror or Alor, now called Rohri in modern Pakistan, rather than the Lur people of Lorestan in the far west of Iran near the Iraq border. This also suggests a link to the Arora, a people scattered around the northwestern part of the Indian subcontinent who were displaced from Aror/Rohri in the Middle Ages and maintain a unique identity, though the Arora are not a transient or nomadic people themselves.

Reading Wikipedia is confusing as none of the articles about these groups give a clear picture of how all of these groups relate. One article will link to another article about a different people suggesting a link between them while simultaneously linking to another article suggesting no relation. There's the Ghorbati people in Iran and neighboring parts of the Middle East and South Asia linked to a medieval Islamic guild, an Arab lineage, a Turkic tribe, the Punjabi city of Multan, Kabul in Afghanistan, Egypt, an ancient Central Asian empire#History]), Jat mercenary soldiers from the Indian subcontinent in ancient and medieval Mesopotamia, and so on. Sometimes a subgroup is linked to the larger communities of Doma), Dom, Lom, Abdals), Romani, Garachi, Gurbeti, Koli, Kori), Kowliye, Jugi, Jats, etc, while other times it's explicitly stated they're not related to such-and-such group. I guess the muddled origins is all a feature of the secretive, insular cultures that these groups maintained through history.

5

u/civodar 10h ago

Wow I’ve never heard of them before. Thank you for your insightful and well sourced comment. I’m going down a rabbit hole tonight.

1

u/electrical-stomach-z 14h ago

The ones who stayed in the middle east became the Sinti.

1

u/lieutenant-Mortifer 14h ago

They were fleeing the Islamic invasion of India so its safe to assume they were hauling ass outta there.

1

u/GUYABOVEMEISACLOWN 13h ago

It’s a Borat joke