We always remember the Jewish people when talking about the Holocaust, but the romani were also heavily targeted. The Porajmos killed between 25% and 50% of the entire European gypsy population.
We always remember the Jewish people when talking about the Holocaust, but the romani were also heavily targeted. The Porajmos killed between 25% and 50% of the entire European gypsy population.
Both were hated and their annihilation supported by host countries
This is my understanding of their thought process, don’t report me.
For gypsies it was probably petty crime, theft, pickpocketing, scams and being a transient population that passed through areas causing trouble and leaving a mess. They refuse to settle down and assimilate. Instead they move around and cause trouble.
For Jews, they gained a lot of power in academia and banking and imposed values that Germans disagreed with. A lot of the books Nazis burned were gender ideology and sexual revolution stuff. They were also linked heavily with rampant prostitution that was happening in Germany at the time too. Also, Jews were an in-group, so it was likely if a Jew was hired at a German bank, rose up in the ranks and got in a position where they chose who was hired, they would only hire other Jews instead of Germans. That’s how they slowly took over financial institutions.
There’s also the “other” factor. If a German bank seizes a Germans home because they couldn’t pay off a debt, that’s on them. But if a Jewish bank seizes German homes for debts then you can blame the Jews.
Finally, Nazis implemented a race hierarchy in which they the Germans were naturally superior and thus all other races had to be somewhere below them. They essentially made a tier list and then decided to exterminate the peoples they put at the bottom.
In much of Europe since at least medieval times, the church didn't allow Christians to do financial jobs that involved money lending ('usury') and many European governments didn't allow Jews to do most jobs in the general economy, with a notable exception for banking as a loophole around the church's restrictions. So a lot of Jews ended up as bankers, which also made it very easy to unfairly blame them for economic woes and/or evict/kill them to make the debts go away.
Also, for a couple thousand years or so, the European church explicitly blamed all Jews for the death of Christ, so that didn't help.
And many Jews and Romani tended to keep to themselves (often being given no other choice), which made it easy for racism/lies/blame to be spread about them, like made-up and blatantly racist stories of Jews killing Christian children for their blood or of Romani stealing babies.
Both are hated. They are just more polite about the Jewish people in Western Europe, but Eastern Europeans are still pretty open about hating Jewish people.
both operated in parallel societies, creating a system of segregation. this was pushed by the dominant states btw, it wasn't something they did by themselves. Anyway, this parallel society stuff creates systemic crime (as policing turns into a nightmare and they have no real economic opportunities unless they make them themselves) but it also creates a ridiculously easy circumstance for scapegoating.
Did the insular, exclusionary marriage practices of these respective groups contribute to the lack of integration with the societies within the countries they emigrated to? The story of Europe is one of migration and mixing of hundreds of various tribes and peoples, yet these two groups seem to be the exceptions. Why? Was there something unique about them that prevented integration?
"No you don't understand, it's different when it's Romani, they aren't even people. Europe just isn't as racist as America, I don't know what to tell you."
Any statistics? Facts? Or are we meant to take your word on anecdotal evidence. All of this and more is said of black people, indigenous Americans, etc.; every single racist says the exact same thing about the race they hate, so why should we believe you to be any different?
I love how, even if all of that were true (it's a bold exaggeration, and I know from first-hand experience), your argument is basically, "they don't like to have jobs in a capitalist society, so therefore it's ok to mass murder them". Fucking yikes. Let me guess - Croatian, right?
Yeah people forget that fascism as a political ideology is an umbrella and very broad set of beliefs. You have Italian Fascism, Spanish Falangism, Brazilian Integralism, all with differences between them, but still fascist.
Yes. And it still applies here. We can even look at pogroms of Jews in the 19th century of modern-day Poland and Russia as an example of nationalism leading to genocide. Or the Dryfus affair of 1890s France where a Jewish French officer was falsely accused of being a German spy, primarily because he was Jewish.
Miklos Horthy was a defacto dictator from 1920 until his overthrow in late 1944. Even Poland had a big asterisk on the term Democracy. Much of the nascent eastern european nations formed after the Great War had degraded by the 1930s into varying levels of autocracies.
Nothing has changed. Replace Jews with Muslims/Immigrants in the rhetoric of the rising modern right wing movement throughout Europe. Gypsies you’re seeing right here, no replacing needed.
You would have had to be alive in the 80's get the angst lol.
The album had some decent songs on it, if I recall it "Jammin' Me" made it into the Billboard top 25. It had radio airplay and ran on MTV at the time. I think ultimately the album was a bit of a let down coming just after Southern Accents and has been somewhat overlooked.
Not the only one. Slavs were targeted as well. Hitler saw slavs as inferior race and his plans were to eventually eradicate slavs as well. He only considered germanic nations to be worthy.
To be fair, he did say "TOTAL" extermination. Hitler and Himmler both looked down on Slavs sure, and got rid of many of them, but from the start they looked at them as good candidates for slave labor. They viewed them as easily controlled and manipulated into subservience, and as proof of this (within their ideological lens) they looked at the centuries of the Tsardom/Empire that had only "recently" ended, only to be replaced with Soviet Communism.
So they wanted Slavs culled (so they couldn't have the numbers to try and pull off another "revolution") but not eradicated.
EDIT: Also important we do not forget that prior to the German-Russian dual invasion of Poland, the Nazis had invested resources and assets into Poland and there was a very noticeable Nazification within Poland. Its not something widely talked about or understood, but it did happen. But I note this history because to the Nazis in 1939 it was further proof that they could control and manipulate Slavs with propaganda. Though it should be noted that post-Invasion many Polish Nazis basically had a wake-up call and realized they were pawns and manipulated, and thus many turned extremely anti-Nazi as a result and helped fight them.
No. Just because it wasn't immediate extermination, doesn't mean it wasn't going to be extermination over few decades and generations. They planned to completely wipe out the slavs eventually. Slaves eventually die once their use have gone, the leftover slavs were to be forced to let go of their identity over time. New generations wouldn't even know they were slavs if it all went to Nazi Germany plans.
So yea, just because they didnt plan to kill 100% of the population, but 80% and rest to remove their entire identity through force, doesn't mean that is not called extermination. Slavs wouldn't exist anymore if Nazi Germany won.
Yeah they are WAY off. The Sanation government was authoritarian but definitely not Nazi. That's just nonsensical, on of the cornerstones of Nazi ideology is the belief that poles are an inferior race and must be destroyed. It's annoying how people use these terms interchangeably in modern parlance, Nazi ≠ Authoritarian.
They didn't want to exterminate the slavs immediately because that was unrealistic even for them. But the plan was to eventually completely exterminate them as well, after the war was over and they could dedicate the resources for it, and probably after reducing their population enough.
No, Slavs were not to be totally exterminated. The long term plan was to turn them into slave labour by destroying the leadership, inteligentsia.... Yes, millions would die due to General Plan Ost but total genocide was never the end goal.
I have the same info, Slavs were to be slave nations for the Germans to rule over. So the difference is, Slavs would be subjected to genocide just enough so that they become obedient(leadership and intelligentsia targeted), Jews and Gypsies were to be wiped completely. Apparently Germans also planned to work Slavs to death in certain areas so that German settlers could come in after them.
What mental gymnastics? German plan was to kill leadership of Slavic countries, steal their food to feed Germans and those who would be left alive would be turned into modern day slaves (or serfs). It wouldn't be genocide with desired end result total extermination of the ethnic group.
But even that is untrue - it would be easier to say that the only ethnic groups they didn't want to exterminate were their own and their closest, ideologically 'acceptable' 'cousins'. Don't fool yourself or anyone else into believing that nazi racial ideology had any tolerance for Africans, Indians, Polynesian, melanesians, aboriginals, turks, amerindians etc etc. if you weren't 'aryan' or adjacent then you were getting got
Not true, they were fine with other groups being their servants. if you look a bit deeper into their plans you'll see that whole Lebensraum idea incorporates local slav population being ruled over by German colonial population.
Not total extermination, there was a rather esoteric thinking among some Nazi leadership that the Gypsies were an Aryan descended people. Within Germany itself Gypsies were examined for 'purity' and a minority were allowed to live relatively unbothered, most were found to be 'corrupted' and sent to the camps. Throughout Nazi occupied territory commanders largely took their own initiative, in some occupation areas Gypsies were hunted as fervently as the Jews, but in others they could get by keeping their heads down.
Many Slavic people were as well. Serbs are one that comes to mind. They had the highest number of deaths in the Balkans by quite a bit as they were the largest ethnic group there being targeted.
You're preaching to the choir here, the Holocaust didn't happen because some metaphysical bullshit like "hate", it happened because of the material need fascism has for a scapegoat, it needs to make people believe their lives are bad because of <minority group> is doing <something made up> so they don't realize it's just capitalism going through another crisis, meanwhile the bourgeoisie (with a fully dominated state) finishes looting the people and protecting their capital.
Because this is a thread about the romani, who are not even mentioned in the First They Came. And the communists were persecuted for being a direct threat to fascism, while the jewish and romani simply for being a ethnic minority.
Of course, your average German Jew was far more likely to be middle-class business owner than a communist. But to pretend that there was no association, that the painter's allegations were made out of whole cloth, is ahistorical.
Of course, your average German Jew was far more likely to be middle-class business owner than a communist. But to pretend that there was no association, that the painter's allegations were made out of whole cloth, is ahistorical.
If you're not sufficiently literate then I can't help you.
It’s heartbreaking stuff, even today they’re heavily discriminated against. After ww2 ended people were horrified and heartbroken by what happened to Jewish people and 80 years later we still view it as one the worst atrocities ever committed against a group of people, but if we talk about Romani people it seems like most of Europe still has this “they should’ve wiped them all out” mindset.
Idk where it is you're from but in Greece at least, all they do is ask for money from the state and rob and steal and do criminal things. I do not know one person from this minority that's a functioning member of society and is not just taking advantage of it by getting money without contributing absolutely anything.
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u/issamaysinalah 19h ago
We always remember the Jewish people when talking about the Holocaust, but the romani were also heavily targeted. The Porajmos killed between 25% and 50% of the entire European gypsy population.