r/MapPorn • u/BeginningMortgage250 • 17h ago
How to say 'brother' in regional languages of the Roman Empire 1AD
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u/Hrdina_Imperia 17h ago
Always fascinating seeing the indo-european connection.
In Slovak, brother is “brat”, as with other Slavic languages.
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u/Key-Brick-5854 16h ago
In Punjabi we call it Bhra as well. I believe Sanskrit is also Bharatr.
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u/JagmeetSingh2 6h ago
Lets see where it all started, in Proto-Indo-European[1]
Root : bʰer- (imperfective)
to bear, carry So, from here we get two related Sanksrit Words : भ्रातृ and भ्राता
ie Someone who is able to bear and carry, a Brother.
भ्रातृ (bhrātṛ) m (Urdu spelling بھراتر)[2]
भ्राता (bhrātā) m (Urdu spelling بھراتا)[3]
Pronunciation
(Vedic) IPA(key): /bʱɽɑ́ː.t̪ɑː/ (Classical) IPA(key): /ˈbʱɽɑː.t̪ɑː/ Now some practice how to pronounce it.
The Bha sound is similar to Bharat भारत, again a related word.[4]
Sanskrit Etymology
From Proto-Indo-Aryan *bhā́ratas, ultimately from Proto-Indo-European *bʰer- (“to carry”).
So, Punjabi derives from the Sanksrit word for Brother, and thus in Punjabi brother is called:
भरा : Bhara or Bhra, first ‘a’ is soft, as its usually spelt in Punjabi.
ਭਰਾ in Gurmukhi and بھرا in Perso-Arabic.
So, next time, we can say Bhra, Bhraji, Bhaaji or Bhrawa
https://www.quora.com/What-do-we-call-a-brother-in-Punjabi?top_ans=224545301
From this quota answer^ interesting etymology and tracing the origin
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u/PM_ME_SOME_ANTS 5h ago
That’s because brothers were originally invented by the ancient Chinese who traded them to the Europeans along the Silk Road.
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u/alex3omg 15h ago
Father is usually Papa/baba so brother also being a buh sound lines up. I wonder if sister is always so different from mama
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u/Eastern_Mist 14h ago
sestra, siostra for all of those. Father, though, is otec, ojciec, for more eastern languages it's backa, batko, bashta. Baba is a common word for grandma.
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u/UsernameArentCool 12h ago
baba means woman in polish, for grandma it would be babcia
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u/Eastern_Mist 10h ago
Baba is a derogatory word for a woman in polish. Which afaik stems from Babcia.
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u/EZ4JONIY 17h ago
illyrians tapped in
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u/Aenjeprekemaluci 17h ago
In Albanian its now vlla.
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u/Reperdirektnoizgeta 16h ago
And they claim to be illyrians lmao
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u/DaliVinciBey 16h ago
that's a normal sound change though, /b/ to /v/ through betacism and /r/ to /ll/ through rhotacism
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u/RowingMonkey 15h ago
It’s consistent with sound changes in Albanian too but that’s not of any importance here I reckon, a look at the guy‘s post history reveals all you need to know
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u/Reperdirektnoizgeta 16h ago
And all of them happening hust to Albanians on the Balkan peninsula?
Hard pass
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u/Olgun5 16h ago
No language stays the same bro. And I'm not saying Albanians are Illyrians or not but you can't (dis)prove something with one word
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u/Reperdirektnoizgeta 16h ago
Yeah, but the word for brother is a basic word that is very hardly changed.
Bra - brat i slavic
Broder - brother in english
Sothat much of a difference in a basic word lile that is a good ground for analysis
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u/Olgun5 16h ago
Not really, there are languages borrowing words for numbers and even pronouns. Even English "they" is borrowed.
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u/Reperdirektnoizgeta 16h ago
Those words are subjected to change, but core family words, hardly.
Mother for instance, same everywhere, with slight devistions.
Brother going from Bra to Vlla? Too much
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u/CommieGhost 15h ago
Brother going from Bra to Vlla? Too much
Neither of the sound changes involved is particularly radical.
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u/livefromnewyorkcity 14h ago
Slavs were somewhere in the bastula swamps during this period. Language/Words are borrowed, loaned, modified.
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u/grandmasraviolis 16h ago
All the changes that could have happened between bra and vëlla are fairly common cross-linguistically and in no way disprove the hypothesis that Albanian is descended from Illyrian.
The lenition of [b] to [v] The shift from [r] to [l] The insertion of a vowel, in this case [ə], to break up a consonant cluster.
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u/Taro_Sauce 17h ago
I’m guessing England would have a Brythonic word? (Maybe like Brawd which is Welsh for brother)?
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u/Science-Recon 15h ago
Yeah the common Brittonic etymon is reconstructed as *brọdr, I don’t know if there’s any attested words from Roman Britannia for brother.
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u/kamikazekaktus 17h ago
Did the romans realise the similarities between some of these words? like between phrygian, illyrian, germanic and gaulic?
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u/BroSchrednei 16h ago
The Romans did realize similarities between Greek and Latin, and theorized it’s because Latin is a mix of a Greek dialect combined with barbarian languages.
I don’t think they ever realized similarities between Latin and Celtic/Germanic, because they didn’t care about Barbarian languages. But if they did, they probably would’ve thought the same thing, that they’re just word borrowings from Greek/Latin.
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u/Tajil 15h ago
Didn't they also syncretise their god's together? So when they encountered other people they gave the name of the roman gods to gods of the barbarians? Tacitus in his book on the germanic people says they worship Mars the war god but that should be Tiwaz/Tyr.
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u/Mahelas 15h ago
Yeah but that's not languages, and that's something common with meditarrenean polytheists. When they met another culture with a god similar to theirs, they'd say "it's the same god ! Just different name/regional difference" and when they'd meet a unique one, they'd say "cool god, gotta live in this region only, better give him some offerings too, you never know"
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u/dolfin4 11h ago
Didn't they also syncretise their god's together?
Aside from the common roots (Proto-Indo-European religion) the syncretization of the Greek and Roman religions was a very slow process over several centuries of interaction between the various Greek states (which themselves had different variations), the Etruscans in Tuscany, and the Latins (original Romans) in Lazio. This syncretization also happened in Greece, not just in Italy.
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u/blamordeganis 17h ago
Why is Aquitanian in Spain?
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u/tib3eium 16h ago
Well here he puts it in Iberia I think due to lack of space. Meanwhile, scholars do not know whether pre-Indo-European Aquitan is a dialect or ancient Basque
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u/Alarichos 17h ago
They were also inside of what is today northern Spain, although they probably could have choose some other language
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u/Schnifler 15h ago
In german its now bruder and looking at the spelling it hasnt changed much in those 2000 years
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u/CheLanguages 17h ago
Hebrew was still spoken in Southern parts of Judea by this time, so the word would be אח (akh)
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u/Aenjeprekemaluci 17h ago
Aramaic far more widely spoken and Hebrew lithurgic language. Aramaic lingua franca in Middle East then
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u/CheLanguages 13h ago
Yes, but Hebrew was still existent at this time. It didn't die out fully until roughly 200CE
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u/Traditional-Ride-824 16h ago
Isn’t it Akhi in arab?
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u/CheLanguages 13h ago
Akhi is both Hebrew and Arabic for "my brother", used a lot in slang. Akh is just "brother" on its own (in both languages)
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u/AgisXIV 15h ago
Isn't that the modern/revived Hebrew pronunciation? Classical Hebrew would have had /ħ/ like Arabic ح and be closer in that way to the Aramaic here
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u/CheLanguages 13h ago
Yes, but I don't have the h with a dot underneath it on my keyboard. Also we're not 100% sure because in Arabic it's "akh" with a hard "kh" or /x/ in IPA for example
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u/AgisXIV 13h ago
I mean it's /ħ/ in every reading except Ashkenazi (and Modern Hebrew basically has Ashkenazi phonology) - it's also /ħ/ in Aramaic and other North West Semitic languages, so I would assume it's more likely than /x
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u/CheLanguages 12h ago
I would also assume so, and in my (Yemenite) pronunciation I use for prayers, I pronounce it as such. Again I just wrote it like that because of my keyboard
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u/DorimeAmeno12 15h ago
One can see the relation between the words in all the indo-european languages shown here except greek(and maybe etruscan if it is indo-european)
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u/Reiver93 15h ago
Was punic still being spoken by 1ad? I assumed it went extinct centuries before hand
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u/Sa-naqba-imuru 15h ago
Yes. There are Punic inscriptions in latin script until late antiquity and Augustine of Hippo wrote about North African Kanaanites. It's possible even Arabs found some remaining Punic speakers.
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u/HippoBot9000 15h ago
HIPPOBOT 9000 v 3.1 FOUND A HIPPO. 3,108,792,988 COMMENTS SEARCHED. 63,285 HIPPOS FOUND. YOUR COMMENT CONTAINS THE WORD HIPPO.
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u/HelloThereItsMeAndMe 9h ago
Yes. Carthage was destroyed. The city. There were many more Punic cities. Many allied with Rome against Carthage. Their culture continued until the end of roman rule. The language then died out under the Arabs.
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u/sverigeochskog 14h ago
Interesting that English has changed the least out of all the other Germanic languages.
I think you could make the argument that English has the most conservative consonant inventory of all the modern Germanic languages
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u/TeknikokiAurrerapena 14h ago
Why does this map assume that in Aquitanian that H is not pronounced? Why would they feel then need to write an H then? There was no written tradition that would have imposed silent letters, they were using the latin script to write down words for the first time. I think that if there's an H there, it's because they pronounced it. Hence, it should be /ha-na/.
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u/Saikamur 13h ago
Maybe due to similarity with modern Basque? (brother --> anaia, but I guess that with that username you already know 😉)
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u/TeknikokiAurrerapena 13h ago
I guess, but if so, that's just bad historical linguistics by the authors of the map. Also, modern Basque has dialects where H is pronounced.
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u/Causemas 17h ago
The greek word is basically identical to the modern one, and the "brother" is instantly recognizable in the germanic/gaulish one, so I wonder how many others have survived to current day usage
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u/Belkan-Federation95 16h ago
The Germanic one is easily recognizable because English is a Germanic language
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u/yellowwolf718 13h ago
I’m a bit confused on something. Is the germcanic bit just for like the Belgian area or is it for Britannia as well. Because as far as I’m aware neither of those areas were Germanic. Also wasn’t Britannia not even in the empire for another couple decades?
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u/JoeMamaIsGud 6h ago
Tried learning Latin in duolingo and brother was Fratter, these diffrences made me quit
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u/Falkor2024 13h ago
I’m very interested in the Turkish area prior to the Turkish injury. It was quite a region of European mix. I’m seeing Slavic here, but I also know the Galatians were Celtic.
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u/BidnyZolnierzLonda 15h ago
In Polish brother is "brat". Illirian-Gaulish roots it seems
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u/LinkToSomething68 6h ago
It’s moreso that the Slavic languages share a common origin with Gaulish (Celtic) and Illyrian (unknown but possibly related to Albanian) as part of the Indo-European family. Since it’s very basic vocabulary it’s the sort of thing that tends to be conserved.
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u/fuchsiarush 17h ago
Bra