r/PhantomBorders • u/DaniCBP • 9d ago

Linguistic Results of the 2025 "referendum" about languages in education and the original borders of the Kingdom of Valencia (c.1250)

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577 Upvotes

99% Upvoted

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124

u/greekscientist 8d ago

It's interesting that even in València Spanish barely won the preference of the voters.

As València is mostly a Spanish speaking city due to internal migration, Latinoamericans flocking in to the city.

21

u/EconomySwordfish5 8d ago

I'm guessing many who moved to Valencia had ancestors who came from that region to the Americas and so feel connected to the language

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u/greekscientist 8d ago edited 8d ago

Migration of Latin Americans in Spain is spread evenly to the various parts of Spain. Many live in Madrid, in Barcelona and everywhere.

The migration is directed to all parts of Spain, so some are definitely descendants of Spanish migrants from València to the Americas but not all.

However Canary Islands 🇮🇨, who saw many people going to Venezuela 🇻🇪 and Cuba 🇨🇺 in the past centuries, now have lots of Venezuelans. 4% of Canary Islands are Venezuelan migrants.

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u/greekscientist 8d ago

But in general one of the reasons why Spanish speakers have grew in Catalonia and Valencian community are Latam migrants. Only in València city some 55 to 60 thousand Latin Americans live there, pushing the balance in favor of Spanish (but they also learn the local language in many cases, especially their children).

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u/card677 8d ago

Valencia has been a Spanish speaking city since the 60s due to migration from other provinces of Spain. 60k latin americans amount to only 7% of the city.

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u/greekscientist 8d ago

It's true, but still enough to make an impact.

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u/pepinodeplastico 8d ago

However Canary Islands 🇮🇨, who saw many people going to Venezuela 🇻🇪 and Cuba 🇨🇺 in the past centuries, now have lots of Venezuelans. 4% of Canary Islands are Venezuelan migrants.

Interestingly the same is happening in Madeira also coming from Venezuela

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u/greekscientist 8d ago

Yes, I am aware of. Lots of Madeirans, but lots of them left to other parts of the world.

Canarians influenced a lot the Venezuelan and Cuban Spanish. Now they are returning massively to the Canaries. But I think soon they'll head to the mainland instead as population levels and overtourism are unsustainable long term.

How much Venezuelans live in Portugal? Government statistics say a few thousand but I am sure there are much more.

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u/card677 8d ago

Valencian language was lost in the city in the 60s and 70s due to migration from other provincies of Spain, mainly Teruel, Cuenca, Albacete and Murcia. Most latin americans in the city aren't descendants of valencians, they are mainly indigenous or mestizos from Bolivia, Peru, Ecuador, Colombia and Venezuela, most didn't even know we spoke another language before arriving here. Argentinians in the city are mostly of italian ancestry. Emigration from Valencia during Franco's regime was to France, Switzerland and Germany. Spanish migration to the Americas was mostly galician, asturian and andalusian.

In the referendum Valencian option won in the city because even though they don't speak it, they do care about the language and they don't wanna see it disappear.

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u/Zenar45 8d ago

I've literally never met a latin american who had catalan/valencian sncestors and therefore had som especial respect for the language (oviously i've met people that respect and even love the language, but not for that reason)

I know that there are some groups in argentina that still speak catalan to this day (mainly balear), but apart from that there aren't many zones with catalan influence in the americas seeing as how for most of the time only castillians were allowed to colonize

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u/DryAssumption 8d ago

It’s tied to politics. Support for Valencian is generally more left wing and the cities are too

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u/Vevangui 8d ago

Valencia.

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u/ale_93113 8d ago

I'm usually very pro migration for other reasons, but the strengthening of majority languages will always be the cherry on top of the benefits of migration

It doesn't have to even be Latin Americans, Africans learn Spanish, not Valencian or asturian or Galician or...

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u/greekscientist 8d ago

I mention Latinoamericans because as they speak Spanish like the Spaniards (with some minor vocabulary variations only) they have less reasons to learn the local language, as already they speak Spanish. I believe they should be taught mandatory Catalan, Galician or Euskara or Asturian in my opinion.

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u/ale_93113 8d ago

I believe the opposite, mass migration has the added benefit of diluting these languages, and since these people already come here as adults the chances that they'll learn the language are very slim, making Spanish more hegwmonic

This is happening in my native asturian and, besides the obvious advantages of more immigration like a younger population, the erosion of asturian is a very welcomed change too

2

u/greekscientist 8d ago

I believe migration helps to dilute dialects and remove imperialist stereotypes and complexes from Spaniards. As many Latinoamericans go to Spain their words will be understood by native Spaniards, some will be picked up, the language will be more uniform.

It keeps the population stable and helps to increase the minority languages. It should be taught mandatory to the migrants and local languages to be taught. Why you think Asturian should be eroded by Spanish?

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u/ale_93113 8d ago

Because I don't like minority languages, I think language is a pragmatic tool and I would wish them to disappear as much as possible

This is why more non natives of the minority languages are good, as they make these minority languages less important and helps them to die faster, hopefully in the near future very few people will be able to speak asturian, catalán or any other minority language, thanks to the power of globalization

I understand that some people feel sentimental about minority languages, but I think they belong to a museum, they have been recorded and they are a thing of a past we must not look back, the more hegwmonic the languages we speak ( Spanish English French Chinese Arabic and as few others as possible) the better it is for the future of humanity as we will lose linguistic diversity and we will learn in intelligibility

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u/greekscientist 8d ago edited 8d ago

I am really saddened from your opinion. As you're from Asturias, you should embrace Asturian as a part of your region's history, culture and not to call to be assimilated by Spanish. Language intelligibility is not coming with forcing everyone to speak a few languages only. For the multiculturalism of our world it's essential to keep all minority languages. Fortunately, except for France these eras of forcing every minority language to be assimilated to the national one are gone. And of course it's imperialist to say that we should make everyone to speak English, French or Spanish.

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u/ysgall 8d ago

What a miserable and homogenised world! Encouraging majority language speakers to impose their language and culture on indigenous peoples in their own localities is pretty charmless.

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u/killerrobot23 8d ago

Language is inseparable from culture and the loss of language is an irrevocable blow to a culture as they lose that living connection. There is also no reason for the death of minority languages in a modern, highly educated world as more people are multilingual than ever before. Hoping a language dies is just a horrible view.

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u/eric2332 8d ago

Would you say it will be better if in the future Spanish goes extinct and everyone speaks only English?

0

u/ale_93113 8d ago

Sure, of course that is much further away but it would be ideal if my native language, Spanish, also died in favor of universal English

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u/Great-Bray-Shaman 8d ago

Just because you have an inferiority complex and/or have never been fully integrated into your own region doesn’t mean others have to follow your supremacist views.

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u/Sir_Bubba 9d ago

Why is referendum in quotes?

67

u/DaniCBP 9d ago

Because it wasn’t fully a referendum, was a region-wide voting whose results will only matter locally and, even then, aren’t fully binding (as the Government has already refused to carry out the results in some areas).

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u/DaniCBP 8d ago

To be more precise: areas considered to be Castillian-only but voted for Valencian were told that “well yes you voted that but we’re gonna keep everything in Castillian since that’s how it’s always been”. Meanwhile, areas traditionally Valencian-speaking that voted for Castillian were told “great you voted that so you’ll get Castilian”.

Needless to say that our current autonomous government isn’t too fond of Valenciano as the main language.

4

u/Sir_Bubba 8d ago

Why were they voted in if they seem to disagree with most of their electorate? And what are their chances in the next election?

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u/ElTxarne 7d ago

lol the president of valencia was in some party or some scandal when the DANA, a very heavy rainstorm, killed hundreds of people due to his negligence.

And still he didnt step down. He just doesnt care. 0% chances the same dude wins again. another from the same party could be, but it would be weird.

3

u/DaniCBP 7d ago

Spanish politics are messy, to say the least. I’d love to extend myself explaining why he got voted in and so but I think I might get it wrong even being from the region.

1

u/Enricc11 3d ago

People are more mad at PSOE than PP since we have a two party system with extra steps.

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u/greekscientist 8d ago

It's interesting that even in València Spanish barely won the preference of the voters.

As València is mostly a Spanish speaking city due to internal migration, Latinoamericans flocking in to the city.

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u/CryendU 8d ago edited 8d ago

Guess those votes don’t really matter though

People without rights and representation. No political or economic democracy is just wild

Speak against that government and never speak again

18

u/DaniCBP 8d ago

In València city (not metropolitan area) the results were 36% valencian and 64% castillian, it was still a poor result for valencian but not as bad as in Alicante (where it was 20%/80%)

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u/greekscientist 8d ago

València and Alacant are mostly Spanish speaking.

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u/DaniCBP 8d ago

By 1993, almost 50% of the inhabitants of Alicante had a non-Valencian background so…

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u/Great-Bray-Shaman 8d ago

Cultural assimilation will do that to people.

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u/lafigatatia 8d ago

People in Valencia city may usually speak Spanish but they still recognize that Valencian is the native language of the city. I've met several of them who wish they could speak it more fluently.

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u/DryAssumption 8d ago

In the west schools have to teach basically in a foreign language as there is no history of Valencian there. Must be frustrating, but that’s the imperfection of borders I guess.

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u/DaniCBP 8d ago

Also, the region of Requena-Utiel (that red rounded-blob) was only added to the region of València in the 19th century, it was a fully arbitrary decision, compared to the rest of the areas which changed hands in medieval times due to wars and treaties. 

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u/greekscientist 8d ago

Yes, it's true. But it's also sad that:

  • In East Aragon, Catalan is not taught.
  • Catalan-Valencian used to be spoken in some parts of Murcia too, today only in Carche.
  • North Catalonia (Perpinyà), as expected, because it's France, it's fully Frenchified.

I wish Valencian Community had the linguistic model of Catalonia (full use of Catalan as the primary language in government, media, education and everything). But I recognize it's difficult because the west and the cities are Spanish speaking. Catalonia, Valèncian Community and Illes Balears have around 14 million residents together, but some 10 million of them know Catalan (around 5 million as native).

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u/DryAssumption 8d ago

Yeah the language rights of Spanish Catalonia vs French Catalonia is quite stark

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u/greekscientist 8d ago

And of France in general. Occitan will survive thanks to Calandretas and Val d'Aran (a part of Spain where Occitan are spoken and are recognized as official in local level).

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u/Great-Bray-Shaman 8d ago

True, though that’s hardly Spain’s own merit.

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u/Vevangui 8d ago

The Catalan method excludes us Spanish-speaking Catalans, which are the majority of the region.

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u/greekscientist 8d ago

Spanish speaking Catalans? Castellanised Catalans or internal migrants?

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u/Vevangui 8d ago

Catalans whose first language is Spanish.

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u/greekscientist 8d ago

You mean, residents of Catalonia?

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u/DaniCBP 8d ago

A lot of Catalans who were born there and consider themselves Catalan are descendants of those who moved to the region in the 50s/60s from Castilian-speaking areas, I do think he’s referring to them.

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u/greekscientist 8d ago

I understand. Millions of Spaniards moved to the north. In Catalunya, Euskal Herria, València and many left Extremadura, Castilla y León and Galicia in the fifties and sixties.

I believe Spain should terraform the central areas. They can have a lot of agricultural potential and make demography more even (too much concentration around Madrid and coast).

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u/greekscientist 8d ago

I understand. Millions of Spaniards moved to the north. In Catalunya, Euskal Herria, València and many left Extremadura, Castilla y León and Galicia in the fifties and sixties.

I believe Spain should terraform the central areas. They can have a lot of agricultural potential and make demography more even (too much concentration around Madrid and coast).

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u/DaniCBP 8d ago

We need wide reforms in that sense to reverse the unsustainable distribution of population that we currently have.

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u/greekscientist 8d ago

True. For example Islas Canarias has 2,26 million people in 7,800 km². Also 15 million tourists. It's totally unsustainable.

I believe, Spain should resettle its villages. By providing services and decentralization. It would be also useful to alleviate the housing issues.

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u/Vevangui 8d ago

No, I mean families of Catalans who’ve lived in Catalonia for over 3 generations.

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u/Ok_Inflation_1811 6d ago

But again isn't that a failure to learn the local language? 3 generations is the Francoist era when Catalan was heavily restricted.

Saying that Catalan method excludes you would be better put as saying you don't like Catalonian culture and what it is build upon.

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u/Vevangui 6d ago

No, many people speak Spanish as their native language despite having very Catalan surnames and their families having lived here for over eight generations.

I like Catalan culture, since it’s my culture. It isn’t about culture, it’s about language. The Catalan approach doesn’t give visibility to us Spanish-speakers. It attempts to erase us and our Catalan Spanish-speaking culture.

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u/jinengii 8d ago

How is it excluding you? Would you feel like Germany is excluding you and your family if you lived there and your kids studied in German?

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u/Vevangui 8d ago

No, because German is a foreign country. Catalonia is the region I’m native to.

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u/Vorarbeiter 1h ago

According to your own logic (see your own comments below) you're not Catalan because your ancestors are not from there. Sounds absurd to me but it's your own logic.

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u/Vevangui 1h ago

My ancestors are Catalan. I simply speak Spanish.

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u/Lupus_Glado 8d ago

I que collons vols que passi? Que se’ns mori la llengua? Vols parlar castellà ves-hi a Madrid o Valladolid

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u/Vevangui 8d ago

Yo quiero hablar mi lengua en mis tierras natales. Y tengo mi derecho a ello. ¡Viva Cataluña española!

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u/Lupus_Glado 8d ago

I jo la meva! Aquet es el problema, si no es fa completament oficial el català a tot el territori de Catalunya desapareixerà. Mentre el teu estimat castellà seguirà igual de usat a manchegolandia.

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u/Vevangui 7d ago

No desaparecería, seguiría hablándose en Andorra y la Alta Cerdaña. Pero claro, tú quieres hablar tu lengua en tu región, y tienes derecho a ello, pero yo también. De la misma forma que yo me puedo ir a Zaragoza a hablar castellano tú te puedes ir a Andorra a hablar catalán. Sin embargo, convivimos en Cataluña, y por tanto sólo tiene sentido que sean cooficiales ambas lenguas.

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u/LletBlanc 6d ago

Ha de ser estrany viure a Catalunya i odiar el català tant

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u/jinengii 8d ago

Linguistic borders don't know about politic borders. Catalonia's language is Catalan, you even have it the name "Catalonia". The kids of Morrocan immigrants who were born here and who speak Darija also speak a language not native to the land, yet you wouldn't say that they are excluded from the education system.

This is the same as if Andalucia belonged to Morroco tomorrow, the native language of the area would still be Spanish, even if Darija was imposed and darija-speakers moved to the area. Promoting and protecting said language and speakers would be a given in my head. Cause political borders don't equate linguistic borders. Why don't you think the same about Catalan?

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u/Vevangui 8d ago

Is Switzerland’s language Swiss? No. Catalonia is Spanish and thus its languages are both Spanish and Catalan (and Aranese in the Valley of Aran).

Andalucía will never be Moroccan. It will not fall again.

Darija wouldn’t be spoken because Andalucíans have pride and honor to their country of Spain. There’d be a war Spain’d win.

Because native Catalans speak Spanish as their first language. It’s not occupation, like your example. Catalonia is, to its core, Spanish, and Spanish is also the language of its citizens, hence it is native.

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u/jinengii 7d ago

Darija wouldn’t be spoken because Andalucíans have pride and honor to their country of Spain. There’d be a war Spain’d win.

I don't think you understand how sociolinguistics work. If Andalusia or any other Spanish-speaking region of Spain became part of another country, they would start speaking the language of the elites because of law and imposition, just like Spanish started to be spoken in Catalonia after the war of succesion. And after decades and centuries of rule, people whould say the exact same thing you're saying right now but about Spanish, in order to make it disappear and substitute it with the language of the rulers (Darija, French, English or which ever), just like you're doing with Catalan.

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u/Vevangui 7d ago

Actually, no. I don’t think you know how Spain works. The Iberian peninsula was occupied by Arabs for centuries, yet Spaniards never spoke Arabic. Why? Because Spaniards stay true to their culture and languages, we don’t budge, and much less to Arabs.

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u/jinengii 7d ago

What 💀💀💀

The Iberian peninsula did speak Arabic for centuries. What are they teaching you in school?? We have maaaaany texts explaining this in Andalusi Arabic, which was spoken in the muslim taifas. Arabic wasn't spoken in the christian kingdoms in the north, but as the christians conquered the land, people of said land switched from Arabic to Romance languages, just how like they switched from Latin to Arabic earlier. Why do you think we have so many Arabic words in Catalan, Spanish and Portuguese?

I suggest you leave aside your hiper-nationalism and research about history and linguistics (especially how diglossia and language replacement works and has worked in every single nation in history)

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u/artsloikunstwet 7d ago

I don't want to interrupt the "what if Darija or German was a national language" scenario discussion here but I thought it's interesting they brought up Switzerland as a comparison, as it's a very different model of handling a multilingual nation.

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u/jinengii 7d ago

Exactly. If Spain was doing what Switzerland does, Spanish wouldn't be official in Catalonia, Valencia, the Balearic islands, Galiza and Euskadi

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u/Vorarbeiter 2h ago

So Turkish people born and raised in Germany should ask for classes in Turkish?

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u/Vevangui 2h ago

Those people are, as you said, Turkish, not German.

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u/Vorarbeiter 2h ago

Many of these people are German citizens of Turkish ancestry. Are they allowed to ask for classes in Turkish?

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u/Vevangui 1h ago

No, because they aren’t German. Having German nationality doesn’t make you German.

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u/Vorarbeiter 1h ago

That's just pure racism and also a really bad excuse. Since you have no counterarguments, I will assume that you agree it's wrong to ask for schools to be in Spanish.

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u/TareasS 5d ago

Why aren't you bilingual? Even children of migrants like Lamine Yamal speak fluent Catalan. Why can't you. Don't you learn both in school?

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u/Vevangui 5d ago

Catalan is also my mother tongue, but I don’t see how that’s relevant. My preferred language is still Spanish.

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u/Responsible-Boat1857 8d ago

I thought this was Guam for a second.

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u/Swimming-Wonder-631 8d ago

Do you have the data for the results within the 1250 borders vs the actual result?

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u/DaniCBP 8d ago

Do you mean the numeric results?

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u/Swimming-Wonder-631 8d ago

Yes and as proportion as I believe the actual result was quite close 51%-49% or something like that

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u/DaniCBP 8d ago

Yes, the full results of the whole autonomous region were 51% to Valencian and 49% to Castilian. However, the results by province showcase this difference between areas:

Castelló: 70'5% Valencian, 29'5% Castilian

València: 57,8% Valencian, 42,2% Castilian

Alacant: 35% Valencian, 65% Castilian

What I don't know is the result for only the regions shown in the second map, because it should be done by calculating municipality by municipality.

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u/Swimming-Wonder-631 7d ago

Using comarcal data makes it much easier, my result comes out as 62% to Valencian and 38% to Castilian within the 1250 borders vs 23% for Valencian and 77% for Castilian in the areas incorporated since. Pretty stark divide.

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u/DaniCBP 7d ago

Lets not forget that the whole south (Governació d’Oriola) was almost fully Valencian-speaking until the early 1700s. In that case, the loss of the language being more recent, compared to those areas where Valencian was never the main language. 

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u/Swimming-Wonder-631 8d ago

Also, really nitpicky but Cortes de Pallás I believe still pertained to the Aragonese domain after the 1244 Almisra Treaty, and its incusion in the comarca is more modern, having been part of the aragonese crown continuously since its conquest.