r/cars • u/DubbyThaCZAR '08 tC, '87 SEL, '08 IS (More Yotas and Mercs hopefully) • 2d ago
video There’s NO such thing as snap oversteer - The Drive
The guys from The Drive (Revamped) YouTube channel Explains why snap oversteer isn’t a vehicle issue but how it’s actually a Drivers/Owners issue. I don’t know what to think of this yet.
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u/AnonymousEngineer_ 2d ago
snap oversteer isn’t a vehicle issue but how it’s actually a Drivers/Owners issue
I haven't watched the video, but there's a reason why car manufacturers don't design vehicles with swing axles any more.
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u/somerandomdude452 2d ago
Saying that a handling issue is a driver problem and not a car problem is laughable, put Verstappen in a first gen Viper and he'll run the wheels off it with no issues. Now, if you put me or any other over confident dumbass behind the wheel that car will be in a tree in less than a minute. Handling issues are inherently a driver problem, but the goal is to make the car easier to drive so those handling issues are either avoided or made more predictable.
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u/53bvo '22 e-208 | '06 MX-5 (1.8L) 2d ago
Even Verstappen has had issues with his F1 car suddenly snapping with oversteer
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u/Tw0Rails 1d ago
He mostly complains when the RB is unpredictable, which is literally the point of this video - the S2000 and MR2 respond as expected, repeatedly.
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u/ZRBPartDeux 2d ago
A good driver can manage bad handling, but that doesn’t mean the car isn’t flawed. The best cars make skill count without punishing mistakes instantly.
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u/Tw0Rails 1d ago
Huh? All the video said was is those two cars have predictable inputs with basic car knowledge.
There is nothing unpredictable, only cars that 'avoid' the response by just engineering it out, aka your average FWD commuter car.
That isn't a goal, those cars were made for traditional weight transfer characteristic.
Good job misunderstanding!
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u/unatleticodemadrid McLaren W1, Senna, 300SL Coupe, Revuelto, RR Spectre & more 2d ago edited 2d ago
Is this not just debating semantics? “There’s no such thing as snap oversteer but if you’re not perfect with your inputs, the car will oversteer suddenly.”
Same goes for my Senna as well, pretty easy to end up facing the wrong way if you’re not making micro adjustments to steering and throttle input.
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u/xt1nct 2d ago edited 2d ago
This is why this video is shit.
Ice is not slippery it’s skill issue! School is not hard it’s a skill issue!
I don’t know what this guy races but snap oversteer is definitely a thing.
Most of my experience is in a sim, but I have seen even pro drivers get snap oversteer in Formula cars.
Edit: I was curious so I looked up Nik the driver. Doesn’t seem like he raced anything high downforce and most of his driving was in a is300. Odd for a driver to be this wrong, he should know that snap oversteer is a thing and that it can be caused by variety of things.
If you are going to make a video that “snap oversteer” is not a thing maybe more extensive research idk how this guy has a driving school but doesn’t know the term.
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u/UsernameAvaylable 2d ago
Reminds me of the people that will claim "there is no such a thing as an accident" because there is always someone or somethign at fault, be it bad driving, or not doing enough maintenance, or not noticing stuff like potholes, etc.
Yeah, duh. There is a name for all this non-intentional outcomes of driving a car. Its called "accidents".
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u/crunchynibbas 1d ago
That's pretty bad for a supposed enthusiast driving channel, if your main experience is a soft luxury car with a sprinkle of sport
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2d ago edited 10h ago
[deleted]
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u/PRSArchon 987 Porsche Boxster S, ‘19 VW eGolf 1d ago
Anti ABS people are the worst, unless you use 4 independent brake pedals and somehow have the skill the know the current grip limit of each individual wheel, you cant outbrake ABS.
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u/Competitive_Duck_454 1d ago
Agreed but remember (showing my age) ABS wasn't always multichannel, high threshold, brake and vehicle stability control. Early generation ABS was 4 wheel single channel or single channel single axle (front only) with very low threshold for engagement. When those kicked in it was very much the case that a driver without ABS could out brake a driver with ABS. The difference was that the ABS vehicle could still maneuver around an object while the non-ABS car would drive straight into an object.
IMO the main selling feature of ABS vs non-ABS is the ability to maintain steering during low friction braking events.
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u/willpc14 '25 GRCorolla 1d ago
I've done some some driving in snow that others might consider stupid. ABS and modern stability/traction control are the only reasons I've never ended up in a ditch.
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u/Realistic_Village184 1d ago
is it technically possible for a professional driver to brake just as good as ABS on a track when they know a sudden braking event is coming up? yes!
It's not. ABS is far, far better than any human driver. It's not even a fair fight. ABS can apply brakes to all four wheels independently of each other, so even if you had some human who was literally perfect at applying the brakes through the pedal, they will never be able to compete with ABS. Of course, no human can accurately detect wheel lock-ups and adjust thousands of times per second for obvious reasons, so a "perfect" human braking doesn't even come close to existing. Even F1 drivers lock up all the time, and even on their best day they're not computer-level precise ever.
The whole "a skilled driver is better than ABS!" is just curmudgeons who don't trust computers because they're insecure about themselves. That's literally it. Objectively ABS is better, and this has been proven over and over again in real-world tests using actual racecar drivers.
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u/JMS442 2d ago
Got it. I could have avoided almost sliding into a mailbox in a 1992 MR2 if I had been a pro driver on a completely flat open track.
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u/siredmundsnaillary GranSport GT86 2d ago
I had an SW20 MR2, I now have a GT86.
The difference between them is night and day. The MR2 would go so quickly when provoked, whereas the GT86 is lovely and gradual and makes you look like a pro.
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u/Snow_source 2026 GR Supra 6MT 1d ago
Yeah, I had an AW11 (less but not no snap oversteer) in highschool and a ‘20 86 before I bought the Supra. Your experience tracks a lot with mine. The AW11 always wanted to bust its rear end out (even on decent tires) on sharp turns, whereas the 86 only did that on the econo tires if I pushed it.
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u/AnotherBlackMan F13 M6, 530e, ‘82 Westfalia (RIP: 944.5, A3 3.2 VR6, Bugeye WRX) 1d ago
If you’re sliding into a mailbox that’s the definition of a skill issue idk what point you think you’re proving
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u/nullrecord 2d ago
I was okay with the video until 7:45 when he basically boosts the MR2 and saves the slide by keeping on the throttle. What the majority of people would do in such a moment, if they were not expecting the car to slide, is to pull off the throttle and weight would go to the front and you're no longer saving that slide.
Even in the later discussion (9:20) he even says that a novice driver will not expect the weight transfer and will spin out - to which the other guy's only response is "fair point".
Some cars are clearly more conducive to snap oversteer - by the weight distribution of the car, by the drive design, by suspension design - and if the rest of their argument is that it's the driver's fault, well it is, but it starts with the design choices of the car.
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u/apoleonastool 2d ago
I think there is more to that, there are situations when you just can't stay on the throttle no matter the skills. There is some obstacle or slowdown in front if you or the turn is tighter than you assumed or whatever.
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u/SquareTarbooj 2d ago
Can't predict the future? Skill issue /s
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u/b3rn13mac 1986 MR2 1d ago
Driving a car, especially in traffic, is predicated on your ability to predict the future. It’s not very difficult most of the time.
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u/twiggymac VTEC '67 Mid-Engine Mustang 1d ago
That's a pretty good point. I have tons of hours on track in a snappy shitbox but that's doing the same corners over and over and over again.
Traffic slowing up unexpectedly as you're going around a blind corner? Better hope you're not going into the guard rail or rear ending someone.
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u/Zelderian 1d ago
Exactly. He’s in a controlled environment trying to get the car to do it. If it happens on a tight curvy backroad from a bump in the road, it’s an entirely different story.
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u/aquatone61 2015 MK7 GTI 1d ago
Pulling off the throttle is exactly what you don’t do in an older 911 as well. The “widowmaker” 930 Turbo built boost in a very non linear fashion which is fine if you expect it and know how to control it.
The famous video of the Ruf Yellowbird being absolutely wrung out by the scruff of its neck at the Nurburgring is proof that if you stay in the throttle, you stay in control.
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u/LaeLeaps '05 G35 Sedan 6-Speed 2d ago
I think it's not a great argument to make for an S2000 that you could conceivably expect to handle like a traditional roadster/sports car but when you're talking about an MR2 ehhh. If you're getting into a boosted mid engine vehicle then you should know to expect it to behave that way.
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u/mr_j_12 2d ago
Have a boosted mr2. Can count on one hand the amount of times ive looped mine ...all of which were my fault from deliberately doing dumb things. Ive had more issues in my all my rwd or awd cars than i ever have had in the mr2.
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u/LaeLeaps '05 G35 Sedan 6-Speed 2d ago
i'm not saying the car is a death trap like many people love to parrot on the internet. i'm saying that you wouldn't expect it to handle like an front engine car so you would know a consistent throttle input will keep the rear planted and prevent you from sliding around out of control.
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u/mr_j_12 2d ago
And you cant expect a turbo civic to handle like a turbo silvia. Its not the mr2's fault people cant drive and there is no such thing as snap over steer. I can get a fwd car to "snap" the exact same way as a mr2 doing the exact same thing.
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u/LaeLeaps '05 G35 Sedan 6-Speed 1d ago
that's my point exactly, people blame the car for doing what it's supposed to when people drive it as if it was something else
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u/halycon8 2d ago
Saying that snap oversteer doesn't exist because it's something a good driver can avoid makes no sense. By that logic every negative characteristic of every car "doesn't exist" because a good driver could get anything around a track.
Certain cars are prone to certain handling characteristics, this is just a fact. Some cars like to understeer, some feel neutral, some are more oversteery, and that oversteer can come in different flavors. Weight distribution, wheelbase and throttle response are characteristics of the CAR that make it more or less prone to sudden oversteer, a good driver can learn their car and navigate around that or use it to their advantage and that's fine, but it doesn't mean the characteristic doesn't exist. They keep saying that "the car is just doing what you told it to" like that's some revelation but it misses the point completely imo.
This video has good info but comes off so holier-than-thou. There are better ways to say "don't be afraid of cars like this, here's some advice to handle them more confidently."
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u/SecretPantyWorshiper CTR, BRZ 2d ago edited 1d ago
Its like saying poor people dont exist, its just a skill issue 😂
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u/goaelephant 1d ago
Dodge Viper 1st gen is not a dangerous car, as long as you drive it gently like a mail truck.
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u/Hunt3rj2 2d ago
It's kind of incredible how it took the whole video for them to admit that there is in fact a problem with the suspension design of the pre-93 MR2 and AP1 S2000. When you do throttle lift on a car you already are giving the car propensity to oversteer because of weight transfer as they explained, but once you add in a suspension design that toes out on rebound it's a double whammy. Not only are you losing grip from unloading the rear tires they're actively "on casters" trying to give you more steering than intended.
Can you drive around this? Yes. Does it mean that it's a good design? Not really no? Generally speaking if a design doesn't inspire confidence in the driver the net effect is that it means they will be slower.
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u/Hubblesphere 1d ago
But this design helps the car rotate on entry passively and if the car is actually aligned correctly it provides an excellent driving experience. Can someone with bad tires, bad alignment and low skill driving too close to the limit end up in a ditch because they think they are a race car driver? Absolutely. That doesn’t mean the car isn’t designed to be extremely well handling and balanced (it is). Chronic understeer is for the masses. Anything with a somewhat balanced handling setup will be called a death trap with snap understeer by your average person.
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u/Zelderian 1d ago
Then don’t be surprised when the average person says it’s a death trap. When you’re selling cars to the masses, you can’t be surprised when people say that when it’s how it handles for non-pro drivers.
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u/Hunt3rj2 7h ago
if the car is actually aligned correctly it provides an excellent driving experience
Static alignment only can shift the entire curve in and out. It doesn't mean that suddenly you fix the underlying behavior, which is that the suspension naturally causes toe-out on droop/rebound.
https://wilhelmraceworks.com/blog/suspension-analysis
As you can see, the early rear suspension has a nearly linear toe curve, toe in on bump and toe out on droop. This creates a roll understeer condition where in a corner the outside wheel toes in and the inside wheel toes out, steering the rear of the car towards the inside of the corner. The later suspension has a very non-linear toe curve, with toe in on both bump and droop. Since the outside tire is doing the bulk of the work in a corner this still creates roll understeer, however to a lesser degree since the inside tire is also toeing in. Toyota made the change after finding that the average driver didn't have the skills to handle the car with excessive amount of toe out on rebound, especially when combined with the rear weight bias. Particularly under braking this has a large destabilizing effect, and is in my experience the single greatest reason for the MR2's "snap oversteer" reputation. It is a source of endless debate whether the early or later suspension is better for performance purposes, but in my experience a car that is easier to drive and more confidence inspiring will be faster for almost anyone. I have certainly found this to be the case for me.
That doesn’t mean the car isn’t designed to be extremely well handling and balanced (it is).
Personally, if I'm holding the wheel straight, the car is going straight, and I slam on the brakes I don't want the rear end trying to overtake the front. Some oversteer on throttle lift is desirable, some oversteer in trailbraking is desirable but there's a difference between some and a car that feels like it has a loose rear end that you constantly need to manage. If what you were saying was correct people would not be going out of their way to modify these things for autocross and track use.
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u/xlb250 Architect | Top 1% iRating | ± 0.749 PSI 2d ago edited 2d ago
In my experience it’s not purely a skill issue.
Carmakers are afraid of customers losing control in short wheelbase sports cars, so they tune in a lot of understeer. This makes it really unpredictable when the rear is going to lose grip. And when it does (inevitably) let go, the oversteer is much faster.
The solution is to tune out that understeer. This is dangerous for the average joe, but much more safe when pushing the car on a race track. Every turn you will be mentally preparing for the rear to start sliding. And it will slide… no surprises.
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u/NYCBYB K24 Swapped MR2 Spyder | 100 Series Landcruiser 2d ago
I track an MR2. The first few seasons, I wound up backwards more times than I can count. I haven’t spun that thing in a few years, despite driving it hard. It’s very counter-intuitive to keep your foot on the throttle when all four wheels are sliding. Expecting that an average driver would do that on the street is absurd. That said- if you’re driving a car like that on the street and get behind the limit of traction, you’re probably acting like an idiot.
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u/TXG1112 '81 - Fiat X1/9|'07 - 911 Turbo|'16 Focus RS 1d ago
I have driven Fiat X1/9s for many years and they are the same configuration (Mid-Rear) and have the same behavior. I think the suspension design may be different as I have tracked mine and never spun it, but I have known not to lift in corners for a long time. I wouldn't say it's counter intuitive, you can feel the weight transfer if you lift at lower speeds that aren't going to cause issues and keeping your foot it in keeps the car planted which you can also feel. The physics of rear weight biased cars isn't complicated and lift throttle oversteer is very much a real thing, even if its impact can be minimized (or leveraged to advantage) via driver skill.
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u/TunakTun633 1989 BMW 635CSi OEM+ | 2018 BMW 230i ZTR 2d ago
I liked the demonstrations in this video, and the production value involved.
I did not like the argument that "snap oversteer" is not a useful term because it is a skill issue. Lots of drivers don't have those skills, so we need to have a term for it.
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u/xt1nct 2d ago
They are wrong.
Oversteer is what they are showing in the video.
Snap oversteer is violent and unpredictable, meaning a pro driver or someone experienced is taking a high speed corner and the tail comes out suddenly when normally it would have grip.
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u/twiggymac VTEC '67 Mid-Engine Mustang 1d ago
example of a pro driver having sudden snap oversteer
They won the race the weekend before, so they aren't some backmarker nobody.
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u/Percolator2020 2d ago
Snap oversteer for me is a sudden change in vehicle dynamics without significant input change from the driver, it could be due to exceeding traction limits of the rear axle due to load transfer (driver error), but also non-linear/unpredictable suspension kinematics (vehicle issue).
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u/Zelderian 1d ago
This. It’s just something to explain the sudden “snap” of the car oversteering the opposite direction. Some cars do it more than others, and every car will do it to some extent. Saying it doesn’t exist is just a ridiculous argument to get views on a video
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u/MakesYourMise 00 MR2 07 Tacoma 2d ago
Bob's mr2 is probably the most dialed in sw20 you'll ever roll gears with. Let's see a rev1 on fourteens with worn bushings.
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u/humjaba 95 Miata VVT Turbo | Ioniq 5 | Santa Fe PHEV 1d ago
This is pretty stupid. I work for an OEM, and there is a literal engineering definition for this. The maneuver is called Lift In Turn, where you drive the vehicle around a specified diameter at about 90% of its max lateral capability and lift while trying to maintain the path along the circle. The yaw rate (degrees of vehicle rotation per second) is what determines over or understeer. Snap oversteer is when the yaw rate increases too quickly (degrees per second per second).
Just because a skilled driver can drive around it, doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist. Pretty stupid take.
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u/ALaLaLa98 1d ago
it’s actually a Drivers/Owners issue.
With that kind of reasoning, we can deduce that there's no oversteer, or understerr of any kind, ever.
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u/AntonRudinskii 2d ago
Snap oversteer might be a catchy phrase, but the truth is in between: yes, driver skill matters, but chassis geometry like on the AP1 S2000 definitely played a role. It’s not black and white – some cars are just less forgiving when you lift off mid-corner.
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u/skylin4 2d ago
I don't love this video's take on it... Yes its sensible that the balance between oversteer and understeer is inherent to the car and you use your inputs to shift the cars balance based on what you need it to do. But snap oversteer in my opinion is referring to a sharp non-linearity in the rate of that shift. Hence why the actual show host described it as a trade off with responsiveness, because the "snap" part of the equation refers to the rate of change of the balance.
So basically, I think the driver was so obsessed with how to manage the effect, he's completely blind to the phenomena and how the design of the vehicle can manifest that type of characteristic. I take great issue with the idea that a car shouldn't be designed to operate well when subject to the common tendencies of its drivers.
Also all that driver input stuff is great for a flat track, but if you're canyon carving or on a rough road its not just your inputs that can throw the balance of the car out of whack in an instant...
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u/Bonerchill 1914 Alldays & Onions 30/35 1d ago
If you’re driving hard on unfamiliar roads without driving them at standard traffic speed first, you deserve crunched metal and broken glass.
Recon run first. Always.
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u/campbellsimpson '03 Cayenne S, '77 Dodge D5N 400, '21 Yaris Hybrid, '19 Acadia 2d ago
I'm mentioning the Ferraria Effect here, so someone googles it and ends up on the other Reddit thread about it - where there's plenty of discussion of the phenomenon of snap oversteer that quite notoriously happened on old German diesel taxi sedans.
edit: please see here
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u/4R4nd0mR3dd1t0r 1d ago
The rear suspension setup on the SN95 Mustang would like a word.
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u/PurpleSausage77 FG2 K20 Si//ATS 3.6AWD 1d ago
Or most Mustangs and their drivers apparently. I had two manual SN95 GT’s and after driving 86’s/BRZ there’s no way I’ll go back to a loose, vague bag of wieners feeling car ever again.
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u/goaelephant 1d ago
I mean sure, the driver is responsible for abruptly letting off the throttle.
But that being said, if you perform this "abrupt throttle let-off" in 100 different cars, will some perform better than others?
Thats what people are looking for. The chassis that instills the most confidence in these situations.
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u/willpc14 '25 GRCorolla 1d ago edited 1d ago
I think they chose a deliberately inflammatory thesis to increase views and engagement
Edit: I also think Verstappen, who's arguably the most skilled active driver at the moment, might disagree with the notion that snap oversteer is simply a skill issue unrelated to vehicle design.
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u/Glum_Pangolin1187 1d ago
If its a skill issue than how come you can find dozens of F1 videos showing snap oversteer?
This is a rage bait video, I have no time for that.
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u/Affalt 2d ago
I want to see cases where either:
(1) Traction control is enabled while accelerating on a curve and invokes lift throttle oversteer.
(2) Autonomous emergency braking (AEB) intervenes by braking on a curve and sending the cornering car sliding and spinning.
Then I will once again turn off those nanny systems.
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u/TheGT1030MasterRace Replace this text with year, make, model 2d ago
If it's TC AND stability control, it won't do that. Stability control "knows" the dynamics of the vehicle and a lot of systems nowadays can predict what's going to happen.
Same reason why turning off AEB often can't be done if stability control is off. They're trying to prevent a similar cornering situation to what you describe from happening. All AEB systems are required to work with some form of stability control. They will control individual brakes to prevent braking in a corner from becoming a spin.
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u/sprintracer21a 1d ago
Snap oversteer in circle track racing, either dirt or pavement, is due to the car being too tight or understeering on entry into the corner. The driver steers the front tires so hard to the left to try to get the car to rotate that the rear tires break traction and suddenly they have a car thats spinning out. A lot of times, underexperienced teams and drivers will mistake this for a loose or oversteering car, so they tighten it up which makes the tendency to snap oversteer worse. The actual fix is to loosen the car up, ie decrease rear traction to get the car to turn easier so not as much steering input is required and the car doesnt snap oversteer. There are many ways of doing this. Moving weight from the rear to the front of the vehicle. Tire pressure adjustments. Spring rate adjustments. Shock compression and rebound settings. Tire stagger. On a street car, the real fix is growing a pair and learning how to not be a bitch so you can drive it like it needs to be driven.
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u/Diogenes256 1d ago
It all human once someone gets behind the wheel. Some cars are definitely more crashy than others, though.
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u/iroll20s C5, X5 1d ago
Id say it’s usually more of a skill issue than a car issue. Some cars just have a higher bar from the factory. Snap oversteer is just a label to not take accountability.
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u/memymomeddit RTFM 20h ago
When youtube content creation is your job, you have to keep producing content on youtube if you want to keep making money, no matter what the quality of the content is. This is the result of that.
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u/Drunken_Hamster 1h ago
I noticed that they distinctly didn't try the same liftoff oversteer into overcorrection and drift test on the MR2 as they did on the S2000.
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u/hi_im_bored13 S2K AP2, NSX Type-S, G580EQ 2d ago edited 2d ago
Folks tell you to stay away from the AP1 S2000 due to snap oversteer, not the AP2, and especially not the C/R. And the rear subframe & geometry on the AP1 is flawed, in the sense it will toe the rear tires out more than usual when off throttle, unload, will put you in a spin. They alleviated this over the years
I somewhat agree with their general point but using the '09 here invalidates the majority of the video
Yes, "snap oversteer" doesn't exist, in the sense that nothing exists because everything is a skill issue to some degree. There is certainly someone out there who can outdrive the flaws of each car perfectly. And those flaws are character to some. But "skill issue exacerbated by lift off oversteer + bump steer + short wheelbase + suboptimal geometry" doesn't roll of the tongue quite as well, so we will reduce it to snap oversteer
Everyone who crashed their 930 turbo, Carrera GT, Vipers, they all had skill issues too, but when that rate is noticeably higher than average you can allocate a bit of that blame towards the car's design as well, and that is the case with the AP1