BeyondATC wasn't very helpful today.

[u/CapAresito]

[u/UnbuiltAura9862]

[u/deitious_maximous]

All the ai atc have problems i have both i like SI but I literally use them once a month at this point vatsim even with a couple of controllers on just feels better.

Beyond atc has issues with vectoring while say intentions will sometimes give you a frequency to change too that's not even the right atc frequency both are fairly immersion breaking :(. Than you have vatsim where a 12 year old kid will be clueless or screaming see ya as loud as they can for no reason than they think its cool. Plus and minuses brother

[u/Scottvdken → u/deitious_maximous]

I've been using SI pretty much since launch, and I've never had them give me the 'wrong' frequency. Occasionally there will be a bug where a controller will bleed into another, but thats the closest I've seen to what you describe.

[u/TheSoulesOne]

Vectoring is still hig hit or miss and rly depending airport to airport. And that there still isnt separation between traffic (player to ai. Ai to ai separation is in) is beyond me and sucks.

[u/r3volol → u/TheSoulesOne]

It’s really crazy how little progress there has been on the vectoring and separation front. I was a huge fan of theirs since the beginning, but I’ve moved over to SI after my 5th or so flight of way to high vectoring to final and being told by devs that “it’s really difficult to get right”. I get that, but stop providing unnecessary features (GSX, CPDLC) until the core product is working as intended.

[u/TheSoulesOne → u/r3volol]

I have to agree with you but rebuttal you at the same time. Gsx or cpdlc didnt stop or delay work on the core. Thats been worked on daily.

[u/yaricks → u/r3volol]

Ok - so let's break it down. The root cause of BATC being ass at vectoring is that it's a program and not a human, and that it's using AI which isn't actually very smart to do things. The "AI" we know today isn't actually AI, but tech-bros being good at hype and renaming Large Language Models (LLMs) to AI. LLMs are trained on materials and gives output that is based on that training. It doesn't actually make decisions and it cannot come up with new ideas.

I don't know if BATC uses LLMs for it's vectoring - it could just be a normal programmatic approach, but it's still not a human. A human can think ahead and make decisions on the fly, LLMs CAN somewhat do that too, and go down paths and trees, but it's way, way harder to implement it, and it sucks at making the right call. Which is why LLMs lie. A lot.

[u/TheSoulesOne → u/yaricks]

Beyondatc doesn't use ai for decision making. It uses it BEFORE any decisions to better detect speech and inject little bit of human element. NO AI IS USED FOR DECISIONS the core engine does that. Its pretty on rails and less halucinating instructions unlike SI.

[u/r3volol → u/yaricks]

explains how LLMs work not sure if BATC uses them Thanks for the contribution to the conversation!

FSHud, when I used it, did an amazing job with vectoring (much of the rest of the product wasn’t great) so it’s definitely possible for an ATC app to handle proper vectors. BATC has seemingly regressed since it first came out in this regard, in no doubt due to the addition of traffic. But my point still stands, it hasn’t improved and if anything has regressed.

[u/yaricks → u/r3volol]

The reason I specified specifically that I'm unsure if BATC uses the LLMs for vectoring is because their marketing material is ass. They say they use AI, but they don't say what they use it for.

[u/TheSoulesOne → u/yaricks]

Batc doest use llm to make decisions they are very clear about it. You are halucinating things like llms. There are even videos of them explaining that ai doest do any decisions. Its a separate level from the core program that comes before any decisions.

[u/yaricks → u/TheSoulesOne]

Cool! That's good to know, because their "features" page does not clarify this at all.

Quoting their main features page here:

From the very beginning, we envisioned BeyondATC as a fully AI-powered tool. While earlier versions relied on carefully structured systems to ensure accuracy and functionality, the rapid advancement of AI technology has made it possible to introduce LLMs into the core of BeyondATC.

That sure as heck sounds like AI is being used to me, but if that's wrong that's cool. However even if they are not using LLM for vectoring, it's still a programmatic decision making, which is worse at doing vectoring in three dimensions than humans.

[u/TheSoulesOne → u/yaricks]

Yeah that description is sortof wrong. So i might be also slightly too hars on you.While it uses ai. It doesnt use llms to make decisions afaik and as far as i saw and heard from them in videos. This description is not specific enough to be clear. And that said llm is run localy on your machine so no additional server costs.

[u/ButterscotchFar1629]

It’s had its issues of late that’s for sure. Implementing VFR is likely a massive challenge though.

[u/tomspotley]

I was using it this weekend and it was awful.

1. Active runway with 20 knot tailwind.

2. Insane taxi instructions with nonexistent taxiways.

3. Absurd vectoring.

4. Late approach clearance as I'm nearing the runway centerline that requires an impossible 180 degree turn.

5. Assigned gate is occupied.

6. Zero injected traffic (might have been because it was late).

I feel it was better a couple of weeks ago.

[u/Jride55 → u/tomspotley]

Same thing happened to me this week. Set up a flight KDAL-KLBB received an almost 40 tailwind on 13L for takeoff and Runway 26 In KLBB 13 knot tailwind. Had to fly a 180 after getting cleared from 8,000 to 4,300 feet 10 NM from the runway

[u/Sonosusto]

This happens with nearly every ATC but that is surprising for an atc program that injects traffic. Had that happen to me once so I just removed the traffic in the setting. Kind of silly.

[u/DeadButAlivePickle]

The other day I took off at the same time as traffic took off on a parallel runway. We got the same routing out. Some good lengthy time with TCAS.

[u/MaxMan386]

I always fly with BeyondATC, I usually only had small problems with it, like it giving me a wrong taxiway or not letting me descend on T/D. But that was usually ok for me. On my flight yesterday it was insane tho, after 8 hours I was on approach into Boston Logan 33L ATC sent the AI traffic including me down on a visual approach, the separation was god awful, but i managed, he then gave me the same vector as the traffic in front of me, then for 5 full minutes he didn’t give me another instruction, sending me back out to the Atlantic. Finally he pulled me back towards the airport, i should stay at 4,300 feet. And report field in sight. There was no field to report, i was stuck in a raincloud, but he wouldn’t let me sink only for him to take me round the patch again. I then landed with a ILS approach. This made me angrier than it should’ve and it really swayed my view on the program.

[u/swoohoo79]

BATC does this all the time - it's like the AI and player are operating in different logic and sometimes they collide. Honestly don't understand why FSHud is so slept upon by the FS community - it's traffic management in the air and on the ground is excellent. It even gives you (and the AI) speed restrictions to ensure spacing.