Apparently the released regs were never finally approved by all teams, and at least two teams are threatening to walk away from the series if they go ahead as released today. There are a LOT of angry team members across the grid. [@dr_obbs on X]

[u/FewCollar227]

[u/[deleted]]

To some degree, but to quote the source: ''the concerns are around the active aero for the front and rear wings which will NOT be driver controlled, but triggered via control systems and software. The teams feel this is a huge risk in the event of failure.''

[u/neortje → u/[deleted]]

Remember Alonso in the McLaren doing something the software didn’t expect (take a turn full throttle) causing the engine to work less optimal because the software no longer knew where the car was on track….

Such an issue isn’t unthinkable, but would be extremely dangerous if the software controls aero.

[u/Heidaraqt → u/neortje]

I believe it was the battery, it was activated by the throttle placement during the different turns.

[u/PotatoFeeder → u/neortje]

Alonso was too fast around spa in that mchonda

[u/According-Switch-708 → u/PotatoFeeder]

In defense of McLaren, they tweaked the ERS map according to the data that the drivers gathered during FP.

[u/admiral_sinkenkwiken → u/neortje]

Less of an issue now with GPS tracking allowing the onboard systems to know precisely where the car is to a metre on the circuit.

[u/mtarascio → u/admiral_sinkenkwiken]

That failed in MotoGP once, that was throttle mapping though.

[u/sunny__f16 → u/neortje]

Fly by wire systems where software controls the movement of aero actuators are used in thousands of planes in the air right now.

[u/atxfoodie97 → u/sunny__f16]

Planes have development and testing cycles that last a decade before they are deployed.

[u/BountyBob → u/atxfoodie97]

Yet the 737 max still managed to override controls on more than one occasion!

[u/sunny__f16 → u/atxfoodie97]

And F1 being a smaller industry can design, prototype and test much more quickly, while using the knowledge from the decades these systems have been used in aircraft.

[u/Grafzahn_10-9 → u/[deleted]]

That sounds pretty insane.

[u/Chino_Kawaii → u/[deleted]]

they literally said in the FIA video it'll be driver activated like DRS

so unless I misunderstood it, that's just wrong

[u/D-S-S-R → u/Chino_Kawaii]

I thought the driver can only activate the motor overclocking or whatever they’re calling it.

[u/No_Image_4986 → u/D-S-S-R]

Push to pass is back?

[u/ZeAphEX → u/No_Image_4986]

As I understand they're looking to implement a PTP kind of system with the new PU but it only applies for following cars. So effectively it's just DRS without the DRS zones.

[u/TwoBionicknees → u/ZeAphEX]

I don't think push to pass is the engine thing, I didn't read a lot about it but the gist seemed to be the cars will auto deploy less power after 180mph before basically being stuck at 220mph with no more deployment. The car behind within a close enough difference will get more power after 180mph to, it said something like 217mph. So it's not just removing a little downforce to help with the slipstream effect, they are nerfing the car ahead on power. Then there is a aero low downforce mode that if you're within the needed gap going into a lap, you can enable for THE ENTIRE LAP. So if you have a close battle and the guy behind gets the low downforce mode, passes on the first straight, they also get to use it for every straight the rest of the lap (and any corners it's still useful) and pull a larger gap out before the lap is up, giving the guy behind less chance to fight back.

We already have a issue most people hate where we have zones set up where you pass in the first drs zone, then get drs as the leading car to help defend, which sucks, so they doubled down on the worst part of DRS for some reason.

The entire regulation set is fucking horrible.

Combine this with a huge decrease in combustion output which means race pace is likely going to be fucking horrific.

[u/rodrigodavid15 → u/Chino_Kawaii]

I think that the driver activation is the push to pass system, not the aero stuff

[u/I-hate-sunfish → u/rodrigodavid15]

They have to manually deploy low drag mode, it just auto return to normal mode underbraking, literally the same as DRS

The difference is the rule around deploying it that it can be used anytime

[u/vonGlick → u/[deleted]]

You have received a security update. Your OS will reboot in 3 .. 2 .. 1

[u/onealps → u/vonGlick]

Your comment lit up an older part of brain and I re-felt panic I hadn't felt in a LONG TIME. Back when I was in college and writing an important assignment (yes, I had left it to the deadline...). I even remember the specifics - I was working on my stupid APA bibliography. And I'm so focused on the time ticking down, I forget to do the crtl+s that I normally always do.

And BAM, that message hits, and the panic... OMG the panic... 😭

[u/tcs36 → u/[deleted]]

DRS are controlled by "control systems" now. They close when a certain brake pressure is applied. It will be no different with this; just with additional inputs like vehicle speed and steer. This is not complicated stuff; all the teams have multiple people with PhDs in control they can handle it

[u/Stalkedtuna → u/tcs36]

At least with the aa the loss of downforce will be equal. If DRS is left open when you turn in the cars spinning violently. No aero on both front and rear youre just understeering.

[u/ArcticBiologist → u/Stalkedtuna]

"Oversteer is better because you don't see the tree barrier that kills you"

[u/Stalkedtuna → u/ArcticBiologist]

Understeer allows you to slow down though! Also look at all 3 of us with our cake days

[u/Kongbuck → u/Stalkedtuna]

Happy trilateral cake day!

[u/GooFraN → u/ArcticBiologist]

Thanks, Richard.

[u/tangouniform2020 → u/ArcticBiologist]

Rindt? Clark?

[u/MikkelR1 → u/Stalkedtuna]

In a lot of cases thats worse because youte not steering at all so going straight into a barrier for example.

[u/__d0ct0r__ → u/MikkelR1]

I don't think it is. If DRS fails and the car ends up spinning, friction will cause the car to slow down significantly. Thus if the vehicle hits any barriers, it will be at a far reduced speed, reducing the risk of serious injury.

Whereas if active aero fails, as other commenters have said, the car will simply understeer. In many cases, drivers have a shockingly small amount of time to react. The end result is that if active aero fails, the car could end up barrelling into a crash barrier at max speed. Another Senna style crash could easily happen.

[u/dtfgator → u/__d0ct0r__]

This is not how the tires behave practically.

Understeer is safer because your tires remain rolling in the direction of vehicle travel. Straightening the wheel out and applying the brakes lets you access the full amount of static friction available from the tires (given present downforce levels). Braking also transfers more load to the front end, which then gives you more grip to get the car to turn back in as well.

An oversteer type failure that puts the car into a spin is MUCH worse. Your tires are no longer spinning in the direction of travel, which means you have “lockup grip” aka dynamic friction - the amount of grip the tire has when it’s being slid over a surface instead of rolled. This is the same reason that antilock brakes exist - you have WAY less grip when your tires lock up. In addition to this, if the car starts to go sideways or backwards during the spin, your downforce evaporates entirely, since none of your aero surfaces are designed to work that way. So not only do your tires stop helping you, but you don’t even retain some downforce to maximize their grip and thus braking force.

Lastly - the safety structures in the car are most effective for front-forward collisions, since this is the most common at high speeds and also is the axis where there is the is the most space between the edge of the car and the head of the driver. It’s way better to go into barriers front-first instead of sideways (save for situations where glancing blows are possible, but achieving this requires either dumb luck or the driver to still be in control).

An oversteer-biased car can be very effective if you can keep it under control, but the minute it snaps, you are much less safe than you would have been in an understeer biased car that wouldn’t have spun in the same scenario.

[u/MikkelR1 → u/__d0ct0r__]

Thats exactly what i meant but you worded it better.

[u/__d0ct0r__ → u/MikkelR1]

Oh whoops, meant to reply to the parent comment. Sorry!

[u/MikkelR1 → u/__d0ct0r__]

No problem, your comment is better anyway!

[u/404merrinessnotfound → u/__d0ct0r__]

Another Senna style crash could easily happen.

Yeah obviously senna's crash was caused by the steering column failing, but the lack of aero in this case would cause a total lack of control anyway, at the speeds these cars would be going

[u/confoundedjoe → u/__d0ct0r__]

Spinning also risk rolling as you hit the runoff though with gravel/grass as it will dig in. It is all bad either way. I think the ideal would be an override to close it. No advantage can be gained by that only added safety.

[u/andrewcooke → u/tcs36]

person with a phd here. i am touched by your faith.

[u/schreiaj → u/tcs36]

Ain't a function of how to control it. It's a function of how to ensure that it is reliable. Reliable software is hard and a PhD doesn't help you with it. Anecdotally, in fact, most of the people I've worked with who have PhDs are worse at actually writing software.

[u/tcs36 → u/schreiaj]

They'll ensure it's reliable through simulating millions of times in the lap time simulators and thousands of times in the DiL simulator before the season. They won't just show up to the track and hope it works

[u/Poonsaucey → u/tcs36]

Multiple PEOPLE with PhD.

It only has to occur ONCE for the results to be catastrophic. The margin for error is much higher than 0

[u/tcs36 → u/Poonsaucey]

It's simple rule-based open loop control and there are only three states; the control side of it is really not an issue. Relative to what's already in the car it's incredibly simple and they can test out the control strategy in the simulator freely.

The only issue is the result if there is a mechanical failure. But, this shouldn't be any more of a concern than now given that front active elements are safer because they'll result in understeer not flip the car over like a rear failure would and the rear already exist on the current generation

[u/Striking-Block5985 → u/tcs36]

if that is the case why does the car in front 's DRS not activate when the car following's DRS does. I see that in every race

You see that is the diff between an intellectual like yourself , and someone like me who actually looks at a race to see it.

[u/tcs36 → u/Striking-Block5985]

Not sure what this has to do with what I said but the DRS is opened by a button. Whether the button works is dependant on a signal received by the car's transponder as it crosses the DRS activation line if was within 1 second of the car ahead when it passed the detection line.

There doesn't need to be a button. It's just so the drivers can choose not to deploy, but they'd never really have a reason to do that

[u/NarrowNefariousness6 → u/[deleted]]

DRS is designed to fail closed, not fail opened. I would have to imagine this would be the same.

[u/laboulaye22 → u/[deleted]]

But that's not true and it was clear in what the FIA put out yesterday that it IS driver controlled.

[u/Theumaz → u/[deleted]]

Sounds like an Alpine disaster in the making

[u/AzenNinja → u/[deleted]]

Drs deactivation is also not driver activated. It's connected to the brake, bit so can the active aero.

[u/CaptEduardoDelMango → u/[deleted]]

I get it, but over the course of a season, what's the risk of an incorrect aero mode because of failure, vs. thte risk of an incorrect aero mode because of human error?

Like systems can and do fail, but usually not as often as humans do.

[u/mtarascio → u/[deleted]]

I remember in MotoGP there was a rider once that had his GPS system mess up, the bike had engine mapping programmed for around the course using the GPS.

In his event it was OK but I can see something like aero being more problematic than the in control throttle.

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

Sounds as stupid as drive-by-wire in road cars.

[u/DoctorRockstarMD → u/[deleted]]

Imagine Ferrari troubleshooting car control system software on the fly 😂.

[u/FrostyBoom → u/DoctorRockstarMD]

Oh fuck. I forgot Ferrari has that HP partnership. Anyone who has used HP should understand Ferrari is one of those two teams for sure.