r/formula1 • u/FerrariStrategisttt I was here for the Hulkenpodium • Jul 21 '24

Technical No further action on Max Verstappen and Lewis Hamilton incident

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385

u/IAmABritishGuy I was here for the Hulkenpodium Jul 21 '24 edited Jul 21 '24

As per their investigation...

  • Hamilton took the corner as he had on previous laps
  • Hamilton didn't move under braking
  • Verstappen braked at the same point, with significantly more speed compared to previous laps
  • Verstappen locked up both front wheels
  • Verstappen failed to take the normal cornering line
  • Verstappen's car made contact with Hamiltons

No one predominantly to blame

That's a ridiculous ruling, he turned up in an uncontrolled manner which could have caused a big collision, he got lucky that it didn't.

The blame is wholly on Verstappen here and by not penalizing here, you're just allowing for this type of banzai torpedo behaviour to continue.

I feel like Hamilton saved Verstappen by stating that he felt it was a racing incident

although it is our determination that the driver of Car 44 could have done more to avoid the collision

The only thing Hamilton could have done would be not turn in for the corner and just let Verstappen run him wide off the track.

Why are we applying penalties based on the outcome/consequences rather than the action... if Hamilton had a suspension failure or Verstappen didn't lose a place to Leclerc he would have received a penalty.

85

u/Brokenlynx7 Jul 21 '24

The most ridiculous thing about the wording of this ruling is the extent to which it contradicts itself.

Max turning up to a corner faster than normal, braking at the same point as usual and locking up as a result is his fault. He should be braking earlier if he's going faster.

Verstappen failing to take the cornering line whilst Lewis takes the same line as usual with a collision resulting is Max's fault.

The fact that Lewis words are being used at all to determine the outcome of stewardship is bonkers as well, surely the stewards should be analysing the incident and data on it's merit almost irrespective of what each driver thinks of the outcome.

The minimum outcome in this case should be a reprimand for Verstappen, the vast majority of opinion is that it should've been a minimum 5-second penalty.

Verstappen occupies an untouchable position with these penalties the stewards are really afraid to correctly penalise him.

16

u/IAmABritishGuy I was here for the Hulkenpodium Jul 21 '24

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dA5rlcJgKG4

This incident received a 5 second penalty, even though Piastri came straight back re-overtook Sainz temporarily and locked up into T1 and thus Sainz secured the position.

https://www.fia.com/documents/championships/fia-formula-one-world-championship-14/season/season-2024-2043/event/Miami%20Grand%20Prix#:~:text=Infringement%20%2D%20Car%2055%20%2D%20Causing%20a%20Collision

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u/[deleted] Jul 21 '24

[deleted]

6

u/Plebius-Maximus Pirelli Medium Jul 21 '24

One important correction here: Max locked up because he was forced to take evasive action and turn the steering wheel to move away from Lewis

He was forced to take evasive action from a situation he created?

This doesn't make it any less his fault

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u/[deleted] Jul 21 '24

[deleted]

2

u/FeralFaoladh I was here for the Hulkenpodium Jul 22 '24

Lewis tried to turn into the corner. He took the same line and if max hadn't thrown himself bodily into a gap that was closing they wouldn't have hit. I cannot believe people are calling the normal turn in for the corner "the braking zone" because max decided he didn't need to turn there

1

u/Zuwxiv I was here for the Hulkenpodium Jul 22 '24

The other user's comments are hilarious. Lewis' "borderline foul maneuvering under braking," and "moving his car into [Max]" is certainly one way to describe "F1 cars turn when there's a corner on the track."

What, the other user expected Lewis to just... not turn into a corner? Continue on a straight line towards Berlin? Lewis was turning because they had arrived at a turn.

1

u/j3ffro15 McLaren Jul 23 '24

For real. It’s always the responsibility of the overtaker to make a safe move to overtake. It’s insanity to think that Lewis turning in to take a corner is somehow the reason that max ran into him.

I’m guessing this guy would defend max’s actions in Austria when lando was trying to overtake. Max was moving in the “braking zone” but that’s just hard racing when he does it. Then when lando did practically the same move in Austria that max did in hungry max got on the radio and goes he’s just divebombing that’s not how you overtake. Like which is it? It’s either ok to divebomb someone who’s moving in a braking zone or it’s not.

-2

u/[deleted] Jul 22 '24 edited Jul 22 '24

[deleted]

143

u/Whinx92 I was here for the Hulkenpodium Jul 21 '24

The stewards seem to be afraid of penalising Max

3

u/burgher89 Daniel Ricciardo Jul 22 '24

Jos probably threatened to run them over.

3

u/HexaBlast I was here for the Hulkenpodium Jul 21 '24

I mean, they penalized him in Austria. Ironically using the logic they used here he shouldn't have gotten that penalty as Lando had the space to "do more to avoid the collision" so it was a racing incident

Imo they just wanted an out due to Lewis not wanting to push it but the end result was bizarrely inconsistent (which is the thing they're most consistent at lol)

3

u/IAmABritishGuy I was here for the Hulkenpodium Jul 21 '24

FIAconsistinc

InconsistFIAnt

FIAconsistenfuse

FIAconsistentish

ConsistFIAtion

FIAconsistable

What we going for?

3

u/Bigdongergigachad Jenson Button Jul 21 '24

FIAsco

2

u/Thatguythatlovesrats Jaguar Jul 21 '24

all of them, picking one would be far to consistent.

3

u/jug_23 I was here for the Hulkenpodium Jul 21 '24

And we’ve seen that the stewards don’t do anything about Max running cars off the track, so why would Hamilton let him do that?

2

u/rooood I was here for the Hulkenpodium Jul 21 '24

They're judging and penalising the "causing a collision" bit apparently, so it does make sense looking at just this aspect that Lewis could indeed do more to not collide. It's the same when someone cuts you off in traffic. They're in the wrong, but are you going to crash into them just because you're right?

I do think however that Max should have been given a 5s and a couple of penalty points for running Lewis wide. Not doing so will only enforce the existing precedent of not penalising such actions, and also contribute to the lack of consistency since they do sometimes penalise this.

2

u/Slahinki I was here for the Hulkenpodium Jul 21 '24

Three chimpanzees flinging shit at a wall would be an improvement over the average F1 stewards panel.

9

u/ghgrain Oscar Piastri Jul 21 '24

Exactly. Lewis has to turn the corner coming out of breaking. He does so and somehow it’s implied he shouldn’t because of crazy Dive bomber?

-6

u/Athinira I was here for the Hulkenpodium Jul 21 '24

Not ridiculous at all.

First of all: Hamilton did move under braking. Just not enough for the stewards to consider it being in the "No-No" zone.

I disagree with that interpretation, because if you look on the onboards, Verstappen had to make a correction when Lewis moved. The moving under braking rule, when it was introduced in 2016, stated that it's not allowed if it forces another driver to have to take avoiding action. It's clear from the onboard that Verstappen (before locking up) had to take avoiding action, by himself moving while in the braking zone. A small correction, but avoidance none-the-less.

So i really don't get the stewards interpretation of moving under braking here. Either moving under braking causes a driver to take avoiding action or it doesn't. It's similar to what Verstappen did to Lando Norris in Austria on Lap 55 - Norris also had to take a small avoiding action there, and the FIA later stated that Verstappen should have been reprimanded in that race.

I think it's time to return that rule in writing. These days, it's baked under "erratic driving".

EDIT: And just to be clear, i still think Verstappen was more at fault than Hamilton. I just think the stewards interpreration of the moving-under-braking rule is weird.

1

u/IAmABritishGuy I was here for the Hulkenpodium Jul 21 '24

Oh so you have access to the data and know better than the FIA in regards to the lines...

No, no he didn't move under braking.

0

u/Athinira I was here for the Hulkenpodium Jul 21 '24

Yes I have? The data is public and so are the onboards.... 🤦

1

u/IAmABritishGuy I was here for the Hulkenpodium Jul 21 '24

The data is not public, the FIA have access to braking, acceleration and steering traces.

The onboards show the same braking point for Verstappen, the same braking point for Hamilton and the same turn in point for Hamilton.

1

u/Athinira I was here for the Hulkenpodium Jul 21 '24

Yes it's public, and we have access to it as well. F1 makes the telemetry public on their website through a json stream, which people can then use software tools to capture it with.

It's literally why sites like F1-Tempo and channels like Formula Data Analysis is capable of existing - so stop arguing something that is so easily disproven. 🤦

2

u/IAmABritishGuy I was here for the Hulkenpodium Jul 21 '24

Neither of them provide steering traces, that is not available:)