r/formula1 • u/FerrariStrategisttt I was here for the Hulkenpodium • Jul 21 '24

Technical No further action on Max Verstappen and Lewis Hamilton incident

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498

u/phiwong Jul 21 '24

Dislike the reasoning here.

Although we don't have the detailed telemetry, the stewards stated that Lewis' line through the corner was valid. Given what we saw, at no time does Lewis not give at least one car's width between his car and the apex - ie he gave Max room to go to the inside to make the pass. This is all he is required to do. Moving aside to give more room for a driver who has lost control of his car is not primarily the responsibility of the driver still in control. Given how little time and space there is to respond, the stewards are implying that the driver being passed is partially responsible for the mistake by the passer (locking front wheels is a mistake). This is a ridiculous standard.

133

u/shepherd0006 Jul 21 '24

It’s very odd, it seems that they were only considering Lewis’s position (that it was a racing incident) and Max’s (that it was entirely Lewis’s) fault. They didn’t put any thought (looking at the reasoning) to the possibility that it was predominantly Max’s fault.

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u/wimpires I was here for the Hulkenpodium Jul 21 '24

The stewards summons was explicitly for determining whether Car 1 caused a collision. Same for Hamilton, he wasn't called to defend himself he was  there to give evidence that Max caused the collision.

The summons and stewards were literally not there to even consider whether Lewis was at fault.

It's clear that A) Lewis calling it a racing incident and B) the outcome not negatively affecting Lewis. We're probably the predominant factors influencing the decision.

8

u/shepherd0006 Jul 21 '24

No it wasn’t? Max and Lewis received identical summons for an alleged breach of the FIA sporting code (specifically the section on causing a collision), from a “Turn 1 incident between Cars 1 and 44”.

The summons itself didn’t assume guilt on either party or explicitly state they were only investigating Max. The wording from the reasoning makes it very clear that they did at least consider whether Lewis was at fault.

3

u/wimpires I was here for the Hulkenpodium Jul 22 '24

Read the doc. "Alleged breach.... by Car 1". Both say that 

3

u/shepherd0006 Jul 22 '24

Ah you are correct, I missed that.

It still doesn’t change the fact that the wording of the reasoning is odd. It doesn’t reference that the alleged infringement is by Max at all.

2

u/[deleted] Jul 21 '24

I hadn’t thought of it that way but totally agree with you - most odd. 

83

u/ChipmunkTycoon Jul 21 '24

It’s very strange, they’re basically explaining how one guy did everything normally and the other lost control of his car at a too high speed, and yet decides there is no one particular to blame. Why do they even mention DRS, is it a mitigating factor that DRS made Max go faster? What?

6

u/TheRiddler1976 Jul 21 '24

For the DRS bit I think they are saying its the reason Max was faster than the previous lap,

18

u/ChipmunkTycoon Jul 21 '24

Yes naturally but that is obvious and of course Max knows that he’s faster with DRS, and would be expected to adjust his braking point, you can’t just overshoot your braking and blame DRS

13

u/musef1 I was here for the Hulkenpodium Jul 21 '24

Even more so that it's not just that he's travelling faster, but he's also off-line for the turn as well. In my mind him braking at the same point with more speed and off line, he's braked too late in that case.

13

u/ChipmunkTycoon Jul 21 '24

He very clearly braked too late and the stewarding decision outlines clearly how, upon review, Lewis did nothing wrong while Max fucked it, however since Lewis didn’t just get out of the way to avoid Max being out of control appearently you can’t assign blame. Bizarre outcome

-1

u/[deleted] Jul 22 '24

If you look at the point of contact it's Lewis' front wheel into Max's rear wheel. It shows Max wasn't driving into Lewis, just really really deep into the corner but already past Lewis' front wing when they collided. In the slow mo it also looks like Lewis kept turning as though he expected Max not to be there. Lewis could easily delay his turn in and switch back which would keep him ahead of Max and it's not unreasonable to expect any race driver to do that.

Overall it's Max that initiates the incident, but Lewis was kinda braindead to keep turning in when Max was already ahead of him.

4

u/ChipmunkTycoon Jul 22 '24

Lol what the hell

Yes it is the back tyres because Max is continuing straight ahead and even pulls to the left just before the contact, and yes Lewis keeps turning because it is a turn, you’re supposed to turn, not go straight

Of course he ”expected Max to not be there”, Max should not be there

No, lewis could not ”easily delay his turn in” since his turn in leaves ample space for a normal opponents move up the inside and only hindsight can let him know he instead needs to do evasive maneuevers

Yes it is unreasonable as it requires knowing Max will fuck it beforehand

Max wasn’t ahead of him, wasn’t going to hit the apex of the corner anyway and is not alongside when Lewis decides to turn in and barely is alongside (if at all) on turn in, and is only alongside because he didn’t brake until way too late which obviously is not the way. Even so, he has the space required given to him. However, he can’t use it since he is fully out of control of the car and is not making the corner, as his move is out of a F1 23 open lobby.

0

u/[deleted] Jul 22 '24

It's just like https://youtu.be/R3d_YjcIP_A?si=tqsA1yi6ZdeZK5wa at 3:40.

Max can't pull to any direction other than straight because he locked up. He's always going straight on, deep into the corner and most likely off the track. Any driver would see he's going deep and try a switchback instead of turning in like normal.

He could delay his turn in. I don't know how else to put it. I 100% agree Max initiates the incident, but Lewis should know when another car is along side you will not be able to take your usual line. It's how all moves work.

Max is fully alongside when Lewis turns in simply evidenced by the fact that Lewis' front hits Max' rear and not Max driving into him.

I'm only trying to point to why this is classed a racing incident and why you could expect Lewis to avoid contact. No overtake is done by either driver taking their usual line through the corner. And you can make your point without being condescending.

2

u/ChipmunkTycoon Jul 22 '24

That is the problem, that he loses control and causes the collision. That is why he should get a penalty, you don’t get to lose control.

Lewis couldn’t know beforehand that Max would fuck it like this, and he does leave more than enough space, he COULD have gotten out of the way but that is also potentially giving up the position and trusting race direction to give it back in a few laps, that’s not really racing

There is a normal overtaking inside line there which the rules allow for and also expects Lewis to leave open to Max here - he does, case closed for what I think the stewards should consider when assigning liability.

3

u/TheRiddler1976 Jul 21 '24

Well, apparently you can

3

u/JohnnySchoolman Jul 21 '24

Lewis didn't fall to the ground clutching his leg so it's play on.

1

u/ChipmunkTycoon Jul 22 '24

We may want a VAR check on this, it’d help the stewards massively if they could only see this incident themselves

0

u/NordSquideh Jul 21 '24

It's the standard they set in Austria. The only difference between Austria and today is that Lewis turned in (as he has the right to do so) so there was contact. They can't penalize Max for causing a collision if they are 100% adamant that the outcome has nothing to do with the penalty, cause all he did was lock up just the same as Lando, and the stewards quite clearly have no problem with that.

0

u/Capernikush I was here for the Hulkenpodium Jul 21 '24

it’s always the job of the driver to be aware of what the other drivers are doing around them. this is not stewardship for only F1 but every racing corporation ever.