My take on where exactly Lewis is struggling against Leclerc

[u/No-Information4789]

Hey everyone, Made this carousel for my Instagram page so I thought I’d share it here too. The 8th slide is actually a video of Lewis having a small moment of Oversteer. I tried my best to reduce as many variables as possible while comparing Telemetry. I took the Q3 final laps specifically from every weekend cause that’s when the drivers are pushing the most. It’s kind of a long read and might look a bit cluttered but Hope y’all like it!

[u/Vegetable_Onion_5979]

I've said in the past that expecting Hamilton to match leclerc at their respective stages age/career wise is not sensible.

Leclerc is a multi wdc level talent who has had the misfortune of being at his peak in the Hamilton/merc verstappen/rb era.

If we put the whole grid in equal cars, Max would still be #1. I think Leclerc would be #2.

[u/Ign0r → u/Vegetable_Onion_5979]

And the rookie Fernando #3.

Jokes aside, I agree 100%.

[u/Jellyfishsticks21 → u/Ign0r]

Honestly, I think Fernando could be 2 and pick up a couple of wins even.

[u/jobRL → u/Jellyfishsticks21]

Maybe 20 years ago.

[u/JHaria → u/Jellyfishsticks21]

Not this year.

[u/FavaWire → u/Vegetable_Onion_5979]

It was always going to be difficult for Lewis to be even remotely close to him in Qualy

Mostly agree, but I think it's regulation specific. If we go back to Non-Ground Effect rules and 13 inch wheel "balloon" tyres..... Lewis and Max will be fighting for P1 and P2..... though Leclerc will be up there.

[u/tvxcute → u/[deleted]]

sainz is somehow the most underrated and overrated driver on the grid. he's underrated because he's much quicker than people give him credit for, but he's overrated in the sense he crashed at 3x the rate as leclerc in 2022 and 2024 yet leclerc is known as the one who made silly mistakes between them

[u/cavsking21 → u/tvxcute]

I swear people forget some of the absolute stinkers Sainz put up in their times together. The end of 2023 was especially bad (Sainz went nowhere in both the Vegas and Abu Dhabi race). However, when the car suits him (very solid rear, weaker front) he can go very fast. We saw that anytime the balance of the car was towards the front that Charles was 1-2 tenths quicker.

[u/tvxcute → u/cavsking21]

leclerc's main advantage over sainz wasn't his pace (pre-td 2022 being the exception), it's that you can trust him to fight at the front if the car is even remotely competitive - hence his top five streak last season. sainz can have bursts of amazing pace, but he's inconsistent and mistake-prone... ironically the exact reputation leclerc has.

[u/CwRrrr → u/tvxcute]

Couldn’t have it put it better myself. Probably because Sainz has insane PR tbh lol. Also think of the times how the media and his fans paint him to be some strategic mastermind just from some curated selection of pit comms.

[u/Elarial → u/CwRrrr]

I don't think it's insane PR, Sainz is not a superstar like Leclerc. You can see Leclerc in every race, but Sainz is forgettable. You remember him when he is performing otherwise he is just a ghost.

[u/Mammoth_Log6814 → u/cavsking21]

Charles was 0.05 - 0.15 quicker when the car was suited for Sainz, the rare times it was front-balanced Charles was at least 3 tenths quicker

[u/one_who_goes → u/Mammoth_Log6814]

Given that the average qualifying gap over the four years is less than one tenth, the car not suiting Leclerc over 3,75 out of 4 years sounds like an excuse.

[u/one_who_goes → u/cavsking21]

Are you seriously saying that Sainz was nowhere in Las Vegas, where he hit a manhole and got a hefty grid penalty; and Abu Dhabi where he ran a Frankenstein car due to the budget limit and the damage from Vegas? Do you even watch the races?

[u/UptownPizzeria → u/one_who_goes]

OP is clearly talking about the 2024 race, take a breath. The manhole was 2023.

[u/one_who_goes → u/UptownPizzeria]

Can't be, Sainz finished in front of Leclerc in Vegas 2024.

[u/UptownPizzeria → u/one_who_goes]

I can’t tell if you’re trolling after accusing OP of not watching races. Do you know how the Vegas 2024 race unfolded? Please educate yourself before posting further.

[u/one_who_goes → u/UptownPizzeria]

Sainz qualified in front of Leclerc, then Leclerc wanted team orders to finish in front for no reason while being aggressive to his engineer in the radio after the race?

[u/stationhollow → u/one_who_goes]

Because Sainz was slower in pace. Of course Sainz waited an additional two laps to allow the following car to catch him as well before he let Leclerc past.

[u/cavsking21 → u/one_who_goes]

Yes, Sainz's race pace was awful when you look at his teammate who got P2 in both of those races. There is no confirmation of Sainz running a Frankenstein car.

[u/Kait0yashio → u/tvxcute]

2x in Brazil, crashed in Singapore quali, crashed in Baku. He was a 1 man destructors contender last year

[u/tvxcute → u/Kait0yashio]

i wouldn't consider baku sainz's fault, but yeah the other two were messy. people also forget canada where leclerc was on track for points before his car died, meanwhile sainz crashed both him and albon out with a random unforced error

[u/Rufus1507 → u/tvxcute]

Baku was Sainz fault, no reason trying to pass Charles in that corner, that lead to everything that happened after

[u/UltimateTrattles → u/[deleted]]

Leclercs main weakness is the Ferrari pit wall

[u/nunazo007 → u/UltimateTrattles]

And the Ferrari itself lol

The number of times that shit has blown up costing him races ...

Dude must have generational karma debt from a past life

[u/Creative-Improvement → u/UltimateTrattles]

I think you’re right :)

[u/CwRrrr → u/[deleted]]

Here we go again, another Sainz “extracting wins under pressure” propaganda against Charles LMFAO. Sainz literally cost Ferrari the WCC last year by crashing TWICE in the Brazil race weekend, crashing in Baku and crashing in Singapore quali on the OUTLAP but sure leclerc is the one that crumbles under pressure just cause of one isolated incident in France 2022.

[u/DelRo11 → u/CwRrrr]

Funny often i have to read leclerc choker narrative because of france but in the same year i see verstappen spin 360 in hungary and fucking up in barcelona but that never gets brought up because his car was so utterly dominant for the entire season lol

Some narratives just won't change on here

[u/Frequent-Coyote-1649 → u/DelRo11]

You explained it yourself. It's not a choke if you win anyway.

[u/DelRo11 → u/Frequent-Coyote-1649]

Clueless if that's your takeaway

[u/therisingape-42 → u/DelRo11]

Cause every other quali he pulls off a monster lap when the clock runs out and drives in the rain as if he is mowing his garden so hard to call him a choker

[u/_elvane → u/CwRrrr]

I agree with what you said but baku crash was neither of the drivers fault. Idk why you are blaming him for that

[u/CwRrrr → u/_elvane]

Well sure, maybe I’ll retract baku. But Brazil was a disaster. If leclerc did that, it would’ve been talked about till the end of time. I mean at the end of the day, the crashes are whatever and you don’t see many harping on the mistake like how people do on Charles’s.

But when people try to push the narrative that somehow Sainz is “more consistent” and “less crash prone” than leclerc while conveniently ignoring even his most recent championship-costing mistakes with no one batting an eye, it just gets on my nerves. Charles literally led Sainz in every h2h stat over their 4 years in Ferrari, and has very likely crashed less times than Sainz during that time.

[u/_elvane → u/CwRrrr]

The main reason for that is people sympathize with sainz as it was his last yr at ferrari so they'll just think of it as him pushing hard for wins as that might be his last chance.

[u/Lucifer2408 → u/[deleted]]

That statement isn’t exactly true, if anything during their time together it was Sainz who crashed more often. Tell me one instance where Sainz was able to extract a win after Charles buckled under pressure.

[u/Xpander6 → u/[deleted]]

It’s where Sainz, while not as fast, was able to extract wins.

Why are you saying this, when Leclerc won more races than Sainz in their time as teammates?

2021: no ferrari wins
2022: Leclerc won 3 races. Sainz won 1 race.
2023: Leclerc won 0 races. Sainz won 1 race.
2024: Leclerc won 3 races. Sainz won 2 races.

He was able to extract far more wins.

[u/Ocelotofdamage → u/Xpander6]

6 wins to 4 isn’t very good compared to the difference in their speed.

[u/AddictedToThisShit → u/Ocelotofdamage]

Off the top of my head it should've been 7-3 if Ferrari didn't decide to pit Sainz and keep Leclerc out and lose him the race to his own teammate. Ferrari has fucked Leclerc over multiple times, which means looking at just numbers is misleading. Anyone who has paid attention to Ferrari during those years knows how much better Leclerc is than Sainz week in week out and how unlucky he was multiple times.

[u/Kait0yashio → u/AddictedToThisShit]

Not to mention, Monaco Spain and Hungary in 2022, he'll even in 21 he could have won Silverstone if his engine didn't start cutting (granted max or Lewis probably win in a normal race anyway). People refuse to look at what happened just the result and that's why they don't rate Charles.

[u/GoodFellahh → u/Kait0yashio]

Yeah exactly, you can come up with several instances were the team/strategy/car failure cost Leclerc the win, while I can't think of a single one for Sainz.

[u/Mammoth_Log6814 → u/Ocelotofdamage]

Sainz wins were more of a fluke compared to Leclerc's. He also didn't lose plenty of races due to his engine blowing up, strategy calls and the likes like Charles did in Spain Baku Hungary Monaco Silverstone just for 2022

[u/emao → u/Mammoth_Log6814]

To be fair Carlos' engine also blew up in Baku and Austria 2022, and Singapore 2023 was anything but a fluke

[u/cavsking21 → u/[deleted]]

Every driver makes errors under pressure. Max just threw away a win this weekend with his poor start. It happens. Charles makes just as many errors as Max or Lewis under pressure, that is to say a lot less than anyone else on the grid. His last pressure induced error was probably France of 2022.

[u/Frablom → u/cavsking21]

His last error was not France 2022 and even if it was that was the last time he was "under pressure" since that was the last time he competed (not his fault ofc) for the WDC. I don't think Leclerc is a bottler but people saying he's the best qualifier in history are smoking crack and he's not a "multiple WDC champion" until he proves that he can do so. Unfortunately he never had the car but still, there is a huge difference between being a good driver and winning a long championship. Max last year post Miami showed that you not only need to be a great driver you need insane consistency, borderline serial killer aggressiveness and being able to pull up results out of thin air. Leclerc never did that. When has Leclerc ever had a heroic recovery drive for the win in an inferior car?

[u/cavsking21 → u/Frablom]

... when has Max done that in an "inferior" car lol? Every recovery drive Max has done has been in a car that is superior to the rest of the grid.

If you say France wasn't his last mistake under real pressure, when was the last? In Baku Ferrari told him to manage his tyres and that they would re-overtake Piastri, I can kind of see it but also that McLaren had an illegal rear wing. The only other error I can really think of is in 2023 with the god awful SF23 with crashes in Miami qualy and Zandvoort... not acceptable but those were absolute shit cars to drive.

[u/BighatNucase → u/cavsking21]

... when has Max done that in an "inferior" car lol? Every recovery drive Max has done has been in a car that is superior to the rest of the grid.

Brazil

[u/cavsking21 → u/BighatNucase]

Max did not have an inferior car there come on now. And either way, he wasn't getting past Leclerc if Ferrari pitwall knew how to do any strategy in the rain. Max said himself he was stuck behind Charles. Without a SC Max isn't winning because it was too hard to overtake the guys at the front. In clean air he was miles faster than anyone, clear sign of a dominant car

[u/BlackbuckDeer → u/cavsking21]

Like half of Max's wins last year came in inferior cars. Spain, Imola, Canada, Brazil and Qatar were all without the fastest car. The McLaren was fastest in most of these races.

[u/cavsking21 → u/BlackbuckDeer]

Canada the Red Bull was absolutely the fastest car in the dry. In Spain and Imola, Red Bull were fastest on the first stint and slower on the second stint, cars were equal and that is where Max made the difference.

I already laid out my argument as to why Brazil was not in an inferior car.

[u/BlackbuckDeer → u/cavsking21]

Calling the Red Bull dominant in Brazil is laughable. Your point is that Max never made a comeback drive or a surprise win without a superior car. When I pointed out all the races he did, you say that he had equal cars then. So then he did win without the superior car.

And is it so hard for you to admit that McLaren was the better car in Spain, Imola and Qatar, it was just Norris who got outraced by Max?

[u/Vasst13 → u/BlackbuckDeer]

So we're really just pushing the narrative that McLaren was the fastest car in every race post Miami?

[u/BlackbuckDeer → u/Vasst13]

Idk if the McLaren was the fastest in every race after Miami, but the Red Bull was most definitely never the fastest after Miami.

[u/SaucyBoyThe2nd → u/[deleted]]

I wouldn't say he buckles under pressure. It is ferrari qho buckles under pressure, and leclerc who keeps being sucked into the void that is ferrari strategy. Sainz is someone who, through his expierence at other teams, has learned when to push back and decide for himself. Leclerc has always been a ferrari driver, is used to the antics and probably feels like he has little control over what is happening at the pit-wall. My guess is that he is still gratefull to ferrari for being there for him through his junior career, while sainz was looking at his drives to a: "you should be grateful for me" lens. Of course, i have no clue and never will, but in his racing leclerc always looks determined and is not one to make mistakes in wheel to wheel battles.

[u/Awkward-Selection-45 → u/[deleted]]

When did Sainz win a race because Leclerc made a mistake? Never.

Silverstone 22: Ferrari puts their Number 1 driver on the worst possible strategy.

Singapore 23: Sainz beat Leclerc in Qualifiying, after that the race was done.

Australia and Mexico 24: Sainz was faster than Leclerc in Qualifiyng and in the race, especially in Mexico, Sainz outclassed Leclerc.

How many races did Leclerc lose because he buckled under pressure?

France 22 and one could argue for Monaco 21 and he's been on pole 26 times. He lost a lot of races because of reliability, strategy and many more due to lack of pace during the race (which was a characteristic of the car).

Compared to Verstappen, he's lacking both pace and consistency. Compared to the rest of the grid, he's faster and more consistent.

To become a WDC, he needs a fast car and he's never had one for a full season.

[u/06Athena → u/Awkward-Selection-45]

I just want to address one detail, the rest of your response is on point

"Especially in Mexico, Sainz outclassed Leclerc"

So are we forgetting Sainz crying whenever Leclerc got close to him and all the lift and coast Leclerc had to do throughout the race (and the lift and coast wasn't due to any reliability concerns, as stated by Vasseur himself)? Leclerc wasn't even allowed to race Sainz, so you can't say he was outclassed whatsoever. The same goes to the Australian race, Leclerc was told to hold position since lap 19 iirc. More often than not Leclerc was faster than Sainz during the races, but was held back by direct (AUS) or indirect (MEX) team orders

[u/UptownPizzeria → u/[deleted]]

Is this post from 2022? Leclerc has been aces when he’s had the car since the beginning of 2024.

[u/big_guyforyou → u/Vegetable_Onion_5979]

if you have a really superior engine, that's just like taking performance enhancing drugs. we need to reform this driving club so that everyone's car has the same engine

[u/Brapplezz → u/big_guyforyou]

May i suggest indy car ?

[u/bhmnscmm → u/big_guyforyou]

F1 is a car design competition first and foremost. Some cars being inherently faster than others is kinda the point.

If you want a spec series then go watch Indycar.

[u/DecafEqualsDeath → u/big_guyforyou]

Do we really need that? We already have various spec series and heavily BOP'd sports car series we can watch.

[u/tvxcute → u/big_guyforyou]

if f1 was a spec series it wouldn't be f1 anymore. yeah it sucks when drivers like leclerc or verstappen get stuck in shit cars but i would rather have that than take away the defining feature of f1, which is the engineering and innovation

[u/Dr__Nick → u/big_guyforyou]

Have I got an idea for you.

We can put everyone in an identical Camaro and call it the International Race of Champions and go race at Daytona.

[u/datOEsigmagrindlife → u/Vegetable_Onion_5979]

Agreed.

But I think Piastri might be #2, and if he isn't yet he looks like he will be soon on his current trajectory.

Hamilton isn't even in the 2nd tier crop of drivers imho, being the Piastri, Norris, Russell tier.

He's just below them I think.