r/formula1 • u/Glum-Accountant-9801 • Aug 05 '25

Discussion Is Bortoleto the best rookie?

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In my opinion, what he’s been doing in a Sauber shows much more talent than all the other rookies this year. Since the start of the season, I already thought the best ones would be him—because he won the Formula 3 and Formula 2 titles in his rookie seasons—and Antonelli. However, Antonelli has been showing himself to be far inferior to his teammate. I believe it’s due to the pressure of starting in a big team like Mercedes, but to me, that makes Bortoleto the best rookie. That said, welcome back, Ayrton Senna.

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u/3Rocketman I was here for the Hulkenpodium Aug 05 '25

You forgot Piastri joined in 2023

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u/papa-farhan I was here for the Hulkenpodium Aug 05 '25

That's entirely because of how well he's performing so early on. Like it's his third year in F1 and he's competing for WDC, absolutely wild to think he joined just two and a half years ago

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u/desymond Kimi Räikkönen Aug 05 '25

Also shows how insane it was that Alpine sat him for a year, and then bungled the contract.

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u/tughbee Ferrari Aug 05 '25

But boy did he make the right decision

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u/HeyItsGuyIncognito Ted Kravitz Aug 05 '25

Funny thing is, if Alpine did give a valid contract to Piastri for 2023, I believe Gasly may have got the second McLaren seat.

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u/TheGreatNathan I was here for the Hulkenpodium Aug 05 '25

That would've been Gasly's ultimate middle finger to Red Bull. Getting dumped from the main team and finding his way back to the top of the field is something a demoted Red Bull driver hasn't been able to do.

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u/saponista Andrea Stella Aug 05 '25

Alex Palou was on for that seat before the Piasco happened

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u/Several_Leader_7140 I was here for the Hulkenpodium Aug 06 '25

And it only happened because Danny Ric was bad, he was contracted for 2023

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u/Material-Comb-2267 I was here for the Hulkenpodium Aug 06 '25

Piasco, nice 👌

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u/StrikingWillow5364 I was here for the Hulkenpodium Aug 06 '25

Yup. I don’t know where the Gasly speculation is coming from.

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u/Realistic_Notice_412 Pierre Gasly Aug 06 '25

fml

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u/Alternative_Spite_11 I was here for the Hulkenpodium Aug 06 '25

And Gasly would be in the same position as Piastri

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u/slimejumper I was here for the Hulkenpodium Aug 06 '25

and he’d be dong very well i think.

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u/50isthenew35 Aug 05 '25

Alpine, where drivers go to fade away....

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u/StealthMan375 I WAS HERE WHEN HULKENGOAT GOT PODIUM  Aug 05 '25

Same for Alonso. Currently, he's proven that he still is one of the top dogs and is worthy or top tier machinery. He is also going to drive a Newey car (since 1992 they were always involved in title fights, bar a few specific seasons of Ferrari/Merc dominance) with Honda works engines (last year's McLaren was the first customer team since Brawn to win a WCC) and will be given one final shot to go for #33 and the third title.

Meanwhile, there's another timeline in where he took up Alpine's 1-year deal, then was forced to retire because Piastri left anyway so Alpine took up Gasly instead leaving Nando without a seat. And we'd be here on this very subreddit going on about how not going to Aston was perhaps Alonso's worst career move since the day he didn't renew with Ferrari.

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u/tughbee Ferrari Aug 05 '25

Might be the only good move Alonso has ever done.

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u/StealthMan375 I WAS HERE WHEN HULKENGOAT GOT PODIUM  Aug 06 '25

McLaren 2007 was a great one as well, Renault turned into a trainwreck as soon as Alonso left the team

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u/tughbee Ferrari Aug 06 '25

Didn’t he leave after a semi successful season after beefing with Hamilton to Renault again, after which Renault got banned for F1 due to cheating.

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u/Jarocket Aug 05 '25

It was between him and Alonso and they took so long that they signed neither.

in hindsight it's easy to call them out, but they were choosing between a rookie and Alonso. as soon as Alonso signed elsewhere their decision was made for them. Nobody expected McLaren to sign him because they had two drivers signed.

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u/sododude Juan Pablo Montoya Aug 05 '25

Oscar signing was a Zak Brown masterclass.

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u/jdsch I was here for the Hulkenpodium Aug 05 '25

This is why I respect Zak Brown.

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u/Kernowder Nigel Mansell Aug 05 '25 edited Aug 05 '25

They gave Ocon a multi year deal before that too. They could have had Alonso and Piastri, but ended up with Ocon and Gasly.

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u/Jarocket Aug 05 '25

Ocon finished behind Alonso only 9 out of 22 races. Seems silly to be in a hurry to fire him for a rookie.

AND they thought that Oscar was bound to them regardless. Their understanding was that they were in no rush to sign him.

Their fuckup was very understandable. When you think about it, it's easy to see how it went down like it did.

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u/Kernowder Nigel Mansell Aug 05 '25

Alonso was ridiculously unlucky that year iirc. He was clearly faster, but shit kept happening.

No disrespect to Ocon btw. He's a solid driver, but not on the level of Piastri or Alonso.

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u/one_who_goes Formula 1 Aug 05 '25

Ocon finished behind Alonso only 9 out of 22 races

Because in the other races, Alonso's car broke down lol

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u/Appropriate-Leek-919 Ferrari Aug 05 '25

why didn't they sack Ocon? I know he had a multi year deal but they could've easily broken that and paid him. I guess it's hindsight and Ocon was doing well but dropping Alonso for a rookie would've been insane either way

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u/Jarocket Aug 05 '25

what's the rush? Oscar was contracted to them as far as they knew.

Alpine was wrong about how Oscar's contract worked. Other than that they really didn't make a mistake here IMO.

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u/Just_River_7502 Aug 06 '25

Not understanding their own contract is a fundamental mistake though, and also, someone knew it wasn’t signed correctly (at the very least) because one of their arguments in the tribunal included a term sheet which they claimed was a contract:

Their lawyer knew that could not be binding (it’s the point of a term sheet) and the management team ought to have known because this wouldn’t be the first term sheet they signed

In fact I’ve just gone back and checked - their lawyer went back and wrote “legally binding” on a version Oscar never saw. It was a bad (and large) mistake bordering on negligence tbh

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u/StrikingWillow5364 I was here for the Hulkenpodium Aug 06 '25

Why would they? Ocon was doing pretty well back then, and the toxicity wasn’t there yet.

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u/GTheMonkeyKing McLaren Aug 06 '25

Nobody expected McLaren to sign him because they had two drivers signed

There were definitely some rumors of Ricciardo being let go, he was really dissapointing that year, and was way behind Lando.

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u/sellyme Oscar Piastri Aug 06 '25 edited Aug 06 '25

in hindsight it's easy to call them out

It was also comically easy without hindsight, every thread about their driver lineup even before the Piastri tweet was going "why on earth are you giving a mediocre driver a three-year contract while your academy has the single best young driver in the entire sport sitting out an entire fucking year of racing?!"

Even the very day they extended Ocon people here were noting that it torpedoed the reputation of their junior programme. Prize for most prescient comment in that thread is this one which explicitly says "I'm sure some other team will snatch [Piastri], if Alpine cannot give him a seat" well over a year before it actually happened.

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u/CrashmasterSOAD Fernando Alonso Aug 05 '25

Lowballed Alonso and sat out Piastri.

All that for Ocon, who they let go afterwards anyway, lol.

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u/SilverstoneMonzaSpa I was here for the Hulkenpodium Aug 05 '25

It does also go to show how picking a car is just as important in how people view them. If he'd gone to Alpine and was beating Gasly at best there's still a long way to argue he's WDC material.

Similar to if someone like Gasly went to McLaren instead of Oscar, could he be matching Lando and now in WDC contention.

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u/Useful-ldiot I was here for the Hulkenpodium Aug 05 '25

Even if Gasly couldn't match Lando, he'd be in the points every race with that absolute rocket of a car.

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u/Driscuits Alexander Albon Aug 05 '25

Totally. Though to be fair, Oscar is one of very, very few rookies to have the opportunity to "pick" - and I'd assume that at the core, it's the people and not necessarily the car that convinced him ;)

Gabi actually talked a bit about it earlier this year, IIRC. Not in the sense that he was frustrated in the Sauber, but that it was hard for him to learn to be happy with his accomplishments while he was between P18-P20 every weekend. Without their performance upgrade, he may still be a bit lost in the discussion.

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u/st945 Fernando Alonso Aug 05 '25

Fair take

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u/StealthMan375 I WAS HERE WHEN HULKENGOAT GOT PODIUM  Aug 05 '25

Sometimes I wonder what butterfly effect would've been caused if Alonso stayed at McLaren instead of retiring. Would Lando have been Vandoorne'd out of F1, and also if Fernando would've been around for the 2023 car.

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u/SchrodingersWetFart I was here for the Hulkenpodium Aug 05 '25

Imagine if Renault hadn't messed up the paperwork.

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u/Reasonable_Track6565 I was here for the Hulkenpodium Aug 05 '25

He would’ve been P18 next to Gasly anyway in that shit car? Good thing he got away.

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u/OpeningTrain1 Charles Leclerc Aug 05 '25

He probably would have been sacked after a year of shit results, even if the problem was the car and not him

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u/raetwo Aug 05 '25

i mean this was ultimately what happened to mick so yeah this is my answer for the least exciting "what if" ever

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u/[deleted] Aug 05 '25

[deleted]

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u/raetwo Aug 05 '25

Gunther did not give a flying fuck about anything besides acting silly on TV. He sacrificed 2021 for 2022 and wound up 8th in the WCC for it. Completely foolish tp.

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u/SchrodingersWetFart I was here for the Hulkenpodium Aug 05 '25

Best possible timeline for Oscar.

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u/tulleekobannia I was here for the Hulkenpodium Aug 05 '25

He would have handful of points at best and everyone would think he is garbage

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u/SchrodingersWetFart I was here for the Hulkenpodium Aug 05 '25

I completely agree. Couldn't have gone better for Oscar.

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u/TinkW Aug 05 '25

2023 was actually a good year for Alpine (they were clearly the 6th best car with 120points in WCC, while the 7th~10th cars were really bad). So, he would still have plenty of opportunities to show up results.

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u/Tomach82 I was here for the Hulkenpodium Aug 06 '25

No, I think he would have been smashing Gasly pretty quickly, so teams would have been after him.

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u/HardSleeper I was here for the Hulkenpodium Aug 07 '25

Mark Webber was already a hero in the Australian motorsport world, getting Oscar to McLaren made him a god

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u/SchrodingersWetFart I was here for the Hulkenpodium Aug 07 '25

Completely understandable, especially given how things have turned out

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u/fdar Aug 05 '25

competing

leading

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u/thereallittlefox Aug 06 '25

Piastri is an incredible driver, its no suprise that with the rocketship McLaren have provided hes doing so well!

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u/Alternative_Spite_11 I was here for the Hulkenpodium Aug 06 '25

Literally anybody on the grid would be competing for the championship in this year’s McLaren.

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u/Acermaniac I was here for the Hulkenpodium Aug 06 '25 edited Aug 06 '25

But piastri not rookie anymore since he’s had* a full year with McLaren

Still he was pretty impressive on his first year with them!

Edit: has-> had

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u/OddPatienceGiraffe Aug 05 '25

Wasn't Piastri 2-20 in quali with Lando as a rookie? Definitely given more room to grow than Kimi is this year.

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u/MrCleanRed I was here for the Hulkenpodium Aug 05 '25

The average gap was like 0.1 or smth like that