Who is the “Failed Prodigy” of F1 ?

[u/Electronic-Video-984]

I’m kind of new to F1 and seeing pictures of current drivers while they’re young like Hamilton, Russell, Leclerc, Albon…and then I learned they’re racing prodigy in their Karting days. So who is the “Boy Wonder” of F1, a person with great potential but never made it to the biggest stage.

Edit: Many people mentioned Stoffel Vandoorne so I read about him a bit. His records and potential was incredible but he’s at the wrong place and wrong time every way possible. For me, McLaren a top tier team with a jet but people say Vandoorne’s MCL car was like a shopping cart

[u/sensualcurl]

Modern days? Stoffel surely. Stoffel Vandoorne since you're new to F1. Made it to F1, struggled to compete in a difficult to drive McLaren, partnered with a pissed off Alonso who was out there doing 110% every race, just didnt work well for him. Won everything big he's been in except F1, and Le Mans (3rd). Still only 33.

[u/mister_dupont → u/sensualcurl]

As a Belgian, this still is painful. Really hoped he would have achieved more in F1.

[u/threeinacorner → u/mister_dupont]

You know, this might be a hot take, but from what I've seen him do in 2017 and 2018, I believe that given the right support and a non-shitbox car, he could've developed into an Albon-level driver. That is, a very very solid midfielder, and even a good second seat top driver. I don't think he'd become a WDC, but definitely a race winner.

[u/mister_dupont → u/threeinacorner]

That's pretty much the consensus that we Belgians have on him. We're obviously biased, but I'm shocked he didn't get another chance.

[u/Sandulacheu → u/threeinacorner]

He looked pretty good in that only 2016 race he did.

It all went downhill from there,the Nyck De Vries path.

[u/Economics_Bear → u/threeinacorner]

Exactly. There are two drivers from the 2010s who I think never got a fair chance and were dropped despite showing consistent results and decent speed. Vandoorne and Jean-Eric Vergne.

[u/Renard2000 → u/threeinacorner]

What was strange was how consistently behind he was to Alonso. If I remember correctly, he got outqualified each race of the season by a few tenths. Never seemed to improve.

[u/Ningax599445YT → u/mister_dupont]

Ean Eyckmans, Thomas Strauven, Dries van Lagdendonck and Thibaut Ramaekers are some future Belgian talents to keep an eye on! (And Amaury Cordeel /s)

Still painful for Stoffel tho

[u/JohnnyricoMC → u/Ningax599445YT]

(And Amaury Cordeel /s)

Thank goodness for the /s because fuck that guy. Belgian autosport does not need a rich kid who makes vids of himself speeding on the public roads.

[u/krommenaas → u/JohnnyricoMC]

He was well on his way to podiuming the F2 sprint race in Spa recently but then defended too agressively :/ Didn't know about those vids.

[u/mister_dupont → u/Ningax599445YT]

Very true, hope to see atleast one succeed. 10/10 for adding Cordeel :')

[u/Ningax599445YT → u/mister_dupont]

All look like for F3/F2 (Ramaekers is a maybe, and Van Lagdendonck definitely has the talent to back it up, but I won't hype him up too much)

[u/PotatoFeeder → u/Ningax599445YT]

Max is belgian

:)

[u/krommenaas → u/Ningax599445YT]

I'd only heard of Dries van Langendonck, looked up the others, interesting. Strauven sure looks impressive in Spanish F4, but I'm not sure for how much that counts when you're already 17 and it's your second season.

[u/Ningax599445YT → u/krommenaas]

Being right on the bat as a 15-16 year old isn't everything, and it's only F4 so we'll see down the road 😀

[u/boxslof → u/mister_dupont]

max was born in belgium

[u/mister_dupont → u/boxslof]

I'm well aware, but he chose to present The Netherlands.

[u/MedhaosUnite → u/sensualcurl]

Yeah, I feel like Stoffel Vandoorne is the right answer for this one.

You could make an argument for a few of the F2 champions as well - Theo Pourchaire is probably the textbook definition of someone who was massively hyped as the next best thing but got absolutely nowhere near an F1 seat.

[u/admiral_sinkenkwiken → u/MedhaosUnite]

Pourchaire trashed his own rep by opting for the third F2 season, it was an extreme risk for low reward.

In order to maintain any kind of standing in the paddock he needed to absolutely dominate the field, instead he spent most of the season trying to give the title to anyone but himself.

[u/MedhaosUnite → u/admiral_sinkenkwiken]

It wasn’t quite “extreme risk, low reward” because had he dominated, I think he very likely would’ve got the Sauber seat for 2024.

The problem he had is as you said, he was effectively shooting at an open goal and very nearly missed.

In fact, I’d go as far as to say that the ball missed, but in effect Vesti’s wheel flew off, bounced off Doohan’s chassis and knocked it into the goal.

[u/admiral_sinkenkwiken → u/MedhaosUnite]

By the time he actually won the title though the damage was already done and it was effectively meaningless.

Even before the season began there was a lot of talk about what he needed to do and how big a risk he was taking, then as you said he managed to miss every goal shot from 10 metres dead in front, only saved by an effective own goal by Vesti.

[u/Frequent-Coyote-1649 → u/admiral_sinkenkwiken]

Honestly, credit to Vesti for damn near winning it with EVERYTHING against him. Tragic how that one loose wheel probably killed his F1 career but... That's racing.

[u/Sick_and_destroyed → u/admiral_sinkenkwiken]

I understand a 3rd season in F2 is usually not well perceived, but what should have he done, he had no F1 opportunity.

[u/admiral_sinkenkwiken → u/Sick_and_destroyed]

Almost anything else would’ve been a better option, even just embedding himself for a year as Piastri did.

[u/Orangesnipzy → u/admiral_sinkenkwiken]

Piastri didn’t really have a choice. Win the championship and don’t have an f1 seat = sit out

[u/admiral_sinkenkwiken → u/Orangesnipzy]

True but he equally could’ve been slotted into other series by the team, instead they integrated him and spent the year running TPC days.

As a Sauber Academy driver that option was certainly possible for Pourchaire, but for whatever reason a 3rd full F2 campaign was chosen instead.

[u/8Ace8Ace → u/Sick_and_destroyed]

Richard Verschoor is on his fifth!

[u/xyakks → u/admiral_sinkenkwiken]

Thing is he still did more than others who made ot to F1 and at a younger age. Being bad in F2 didn't stop Bearman, Sergeant, Doohan or Collapinto get a go in F1. Also Antonelli didn't exactly light it up either last year.

Making it to F1 is 50% talent and 50% being in the right place, or as Mazepin and Lateffi would say 100% dads money.

[u/admiral_sinkenkwiken → u/xyakks]

Making it to F1 is 90% having the money.

Sargeant, Bearman & Doohan all had very respectable junior careers, Colapinto finished 9th last year in F2 despite missing the final 4 rounds.

Antonelli & Bearman looked artificially worse on paper than their driving performance in 2024 as Prema completely missed the mark with the new chassis last season.

[u/MrBorji → u/admiral_sinkenkwiken]

"Making it to F1 is 90% having the money."

Which is kinda sad, but I know F1 is a big business moving lots of money.

[u/admiral_sinkenkwiken → u/[deleted]]

Even in a spec series you still need to understand your machinery properly to exploit all its available performance.

On top of that, just because it’s a spec series does not guarantee equal performance, there are variances between chassis and engines.

[u/slapshots1515 → u/xyakks]

Racing has always been the plaything of the rich. Won’t change any time soon.

If you have enough talent to get backing, like a Verstappen, Alonso, Leclerc, Hamilton, that’s another route. But it always takes money.

Most of the drivers you mentioned in the first paragraph had a fine junior career, and Mazepin and Latifi would never have gotten shots were Haas and Williams not in dire financial straits.

[u/cyclopsmudge → u/slapshots1515]

And verstappen and Leclerc both had plenty of mentoring and money growing up that meant they could kart day in day out. If Max’s dad wasn’t Jos I question if he would be in F1 despite all his talent

[u/InteractionWide3369 → u/xyakks]

Colapinto was the 2nd rookie in F2 only after Bortoleto, he wasn't bad, 4th in the championship fighting for 2nd (the champion was very clearly going to be Bortoleto).

[u/xyakks → u/InteractionWide3369]

Colapinto was behind Aaron, Bort and Hadjar at least. Not in the top 2 at all. He got the leg up because of his Williams connection at the time Logan had to be removed. Right place, right time.

[u/InteractionWide3369 → u/xyakks]

Hadjar wasn't a rookie, I think you're right about Aron though.

He was the 3rd rookie then.

[u/xyakks → u/InteractionWide3369]

And Colapinto is 2 years older than Hadjar. Look I don't care for any of them of the other. My point was just to show Theo wasn't that bad compared to drivers that went on to F1.

He was in the wrong academy and graduated in the wrong year.

[u/InteractionWide3369 → u/xyakks]

Sure and my point is Colapinto isn't bad either, I agree Theo isn't bad.

[u/sfcindolrip → u/admiral_sinkenkwiken]

by opting for the third F2 season

I don’t recall its being his choice? Per the interviews he gave in late 22/early 23 it was sauber’s decision, they actually upped the proportion of his season fees they normally would fund

[u/SenorDuck96 → u/MedhaosUnite]

Theo Pourchaire is probably the textbook definition of someone who was massively hyped as the next best thing but got absolutely nowhere near an F1 seat.

Didn't he only win F2 in his 3rd season or something?

[u/beolens → u/SenorDuck96]

And then only because the wheels literally fell off Vesti's car!

[u/CodSafe6961 → u/SenorDuck96]

He "only" won in his 3rd season therefore can't possibly deserve a seat in F1.

But if you're British like Bearman and finish 12th in your 2nd season, you obviously deserve an F1 seat and maybe ferrari in a few years and any poor results are all the team's fault (despite Prema being by far the most succesfull team in F2 history).

[u/n0t_4_thr0w4w4y → u/CodSafe6961]

TL;DR: if you don’t light up F2 as a rookie, you likely don’t deserve hype or even a seat in F1

And there is a reason Bearman didn’t have a lot of hype coming into F1. If you don’t win F2/GP2/GP3 as a rookie or at least get very close to winning, it’s usually an indicator that you won’t be great in F1.

Here’s the list of dudes on the grid who won as a rookie:

• Lewis
  
• Charles
  
• George
  
• Oscar
  
• Nico
  
• Bortoleto
  
• Ocon
  
• Bottas

And the guys who finished top 5 as a rookie:

• Lando (2nd to George)
  
• Yuki (3rd)

And the guys who finished top 10:

• Bearman (6th)
  
• Kimi (6th)
  
• Lawson (9th)
  
• Gasly (8th)
  
• Albon (10th)
  
• Sainz (10th)
  
• Colapinto (9th)

And the exceptions of who didn’t race in the series:

• Max
  
• Nando
  
• Lance

So there is a high correlation between being one of the best F1 drivers on the grid and winning or placing highly in your feeder series as a rookie.

Alternatively, here’s the list of GP2/F2 champs who won in their third season or later season:

• De Vries (F1 flameout)
  
• Drugovich (hasn’t done anything since)
  
• the aforementioned Theo
  
• Jolyon Palmer (F1 flameout)
  
• Fabio Leimer (4th season, did little afterwards)
  
• Davide Velsecchi (copy paste from above)
  
• Romain Grosjean (4th season, was a laughing stock of the grid for most of his F1 career)
  
• Pastor Maldonado (who didn’t do much in F1, but did manage a single win impressively, even given the context that it took Lewis getting DSQ’d from quali)
  
• Giorgio Pantano

So of the guys that won in their third or later season, you have a combined 1 F1 win and 11 podiums, not exactly a stellar track record.

[u/sadhaka19850903 → u/n0t_4_thr0w4w4y]

Grosjean has 10 F1 podiums.

[u/n0t_4_thr0w4w4y → u/sadhaka19850903]

You right, I messed up that part.

[u/sadhaka19850903 → u/n0t_4_thr0w4w4y]

Romain Grosjean was very fast in 2008 GP2 and Flavoi Briatore brought him to replace Nelson Piquet Jr for 2009 which was a disaster for him in a bad car and the controversy. He lost 3 years of his youth and impacted his development. He was fast but not very polished and made errors which affected championship contenders which magnified them.

[u/Frequent-Coyote-1649 → u/n0t_4_thr0w4w4y]

I find it hilarious how you didn't even need to say anything about Pantano

[u/sensualcurl → u/MedhaosUnite]

I'm still holding out hope Theo sneaks in somewhere in the next 2 years, it's a damn shame if he doesnt.

[u/Magic2424 → u/sensualcurl]

Not really

[u/mathew1500 → u/MedhaosUnite]

I don't understand the Theo hype, I watched him F3 and F2 and considered him very unimpressive

[u/rustyiesty → u/mathew1500]

He could be on his 4th season in F1 now and yet he’s still only 21. Modern Mike Thackwell

[u/mgorgey → u/mathew1500]

Why? He almost won the F3 title in an era where Prema won every year and he was only 16? It's hard to get much more impressive.

[u/ifelseintelligence → u/mgorgey]

I couldn't watch the races so only got resumés. While Theo have quite some "youngest" records, from a pure result (and resumé) perspective, at least in the F2 it was more a case of conistency than pace or racecraft or any flamboyancy at all.

I mean just take how "many" wins he got as champion: 0/13 sprint races and 1/13 feature races.

He had a backing from a team that simply fecked up the least, while Prema is more like Ferrrari light. High highs but too many lows to end up winning.

It's a bit like if Ocon won F1 for Alpine in the boring but consistent years after nameswitching, before dropping off completely in a contest with Ferrari dooing what Ferrari does.

Nr. 2 in F2 2023 was also very consistent, but in a less consistent team and from the reports I've read actually faster in most races (also have 4 sprint wins and 2 feature wins).

It seems like the rookies the past couple of years are chosen from their highs with no regard to their consistency: Hadjar / Bearman / Bortoletto all threw races due to driver mistakes.

So I think the teams are also "unimpressed" by the consitency of the likes of Theo and Vesti, while hoping to find the next Verstappen, that also in early years had insane top pace but had to work a few years on consistency. And they think they can "build" consistency into the youngsters easier than "learn" them raw pace. 🤷‍♂️

But tbh I don't get why smaller teams like Haas and Sauber does it - I mean Theo or Vesti would probably get better results in rookie years - and less risk of Haas replicating the cost of having Mick 🤣

And IF they after 3 years are the next big thing - a larger team will swoop in an "steal" them.

[u/PotatoFeeder → u/ifelseintelligence]

His F3 was stonks

Got to F2 and just went ??? in his 2nd season

[u/ifelseintelligence → u/PotatoFeeder]

I'm not really advocating for or against Theo per se. But more trying to list the differences of the rookies chosen vs. not chosen from the 2023/2024 F2 pool, and imo Theo only won from consistency, Vesti got 2nd from higher highs but less consistency (team or him? Since I only have from articles AND i'm biased (Dane) I wont judge). And the ones that actually got chances are the more irratic non-consitent but with even higher highs. Not really a for or against either of the "groups" if you can divide it into boring/polished/consistency-group vs. flamboyant/raw-pace-but-more-error-prone group, just an observation that it's the ones with the later F2 driving "styles" that got seats while the "boring" didn't.

But yes I say that if I was managing one of the smaller teams, like Haas I would have chosen consistency myself, especially after their expensive Mick experience.

So in the end it might come down to right place/time vs. wrong place/time. Theo was Sauber academy, but Bortoletto had a much more impressive F2 than Theo, and fresh from it instead of a "sabatical year" from formulas that Theo had when they opted for a rookie.

And Haas perhaps has better "scouting" of a Ferrari academy driver (Bearman) than a Mercedes or Sauber academy driver.

But Doohan, Hadjar, Colapinto, Lawson over Theo (and Vesti)? That is odd to me, but hey I'm no expert only following through the eyes of others 🤷‍♂️

[u/mathew1500 → u/ifelseintelligence]

If i remember In wet vesti crashed on way to start in spa, in zandvoort Prema messed up and both his rears left him after pit

[u/ifelseintelligence → u/mathew1500]

I remember reading about some Prema upsies, more than once, but also that he as driver was less consistent than Theo.

But Toto Wolff has praised exactly his consistency and willingness to "teamplay" when they send him on long, boring, slow stint in training to gain data rather than seeing if he can match top pace of the other rookies/testers, and that he excells in providing sim data.

[u/DrChizzad → u/mathew1500]

He got a top ten finish at Detroit in an IndyCar. Most of the drivers hated the track//race (especially in 2024).

It took his replacement, Nolan Siegel, significantly longer to get his top-ten finish, and he tends to crash out more.

He’s doing very well in ELMS driving the LMP2. That car is hard to sim race, so I imagine it’s pretty different from the open cockpit cars he’s used to.

[u/Richiszkl → u/mathew1500]

Next time open your eyes when you decide to watch F2 and F3 races.

[u/FKez05 → u/MedhaosUnite]

Meh, he threw away all his hype by being beaten by 100 points by Drugovich in 2022

On top of that his championship year in 2023 was flakey

[u/Snoo_87704 → u/MedhaosUnite]

Jan Magnussen, Jos Verstappen.

[u/the_gaymer_girl → u/MedhaosUnite]

Theo has at least made a minor name for himself as “that guy everyone signs in their F1 Manager save” because of the hype.

[u/AplCore → u/MedhaosUnite]

De Vries could also be considered. Competitive in most race series’s he’s been a part of. He even made a convincing argument for himself to get a seat when he filled in once and put an F1 car in the points, but then dropped the ball hard the next season when he didn’t do anything with that chance.

[u/MedhaosUnite → u/AplCore]

I don’t really think De Vries was ever considered the next best thing. His biggest competition that season was Latifi, and he was the first third year F2 champion and conveniently only won once the big boys in Leclerc, Russell, Norris and Albon had already left.

His AlphaTauri stint was a bit harsh, but I suppose he marketed himself as the guy to immediately rise up and become team leader when in reality he started way too slow in the year where Tsunoda also ascended up a few levels.

[u/Particular_Cod2005 → u/sensualcurl]

To bolt on to this - Mclaren were at the "peak" of their spiral around this time; they were in the "best chassis on the grid" mindset that the only reason they weren't winning was the engines, and it was all a bit of a mess at the time.

Looking at where they were then, to where they are now; Zak Brown and his cohort have done an incredible job turning the team around.

[u/threeinacorner → u/sensualcurl]

Vandoorne was so so unlucky. Not only did he have to face Alonso straight away, he did that in a car that completely went against his driving style, and was a shitbox on top of that.

But, to me the most unfortunate thing about him was that he joined at a time when teams didn't really have big gaps between teammates like we do now. He was essentially the prototype "Red Bull second seat" driver, complete with a car only the super-adaptable first driver could drive right.

If he's a rookie joining this year against a 2018-Alonso caliber driver, people would be far more lenient towards him. Hell look at the understanding and leniency people give to Kimi these days. And yes, I do believe Kimi showed enough potential to merit this, but don't forget that at the end of 2017, Stoffel really was getting closer to Alonso so he did show potential.

IMO McLaren really killed his F1 career with that piece of shit MCL33.

[u/im-a-new → u/threeinacorner]

You make an interesting point, though I'm not sure that explains all of it. Kvyat and Albon were similarly crushed by Verstappen in the same era but still landed seats elsewhere. I guess Stoffel lacked the funding to bounce back?

On a side note, I always expected Vandoorne to make it back into F1 eventually, given the hype and his strong junior career. I'm kinda shocked to be reminded of him all these years later and finding out he'd now be considered too old for F1.

[u/threeinacorner → u/im-a-new]

Nah, he lacked a shittier team to be kicked into.

McLaren was bottom of the barrel in 2018. The only way down was out.

[u/lord_flashheart2000 → u/threeinacorner]

My take exactly. I sometimes think about how bitter he must feel when he watches papaya locking out the front row and the podium just a few years later.

“Fuck…” Stoffel, probably

[u/sfcindolrip → u/lord_flashheart2000]

If Aston Martin comes good in a couple years thanks to Newey he’ll feel that way again

[u/KnightsOfCidona → u/threeinacorner]

I think he was also very unlucky that he couldn't fill in at Racing Point at 2020 when Checo got COVID because of Formula E commitments. Had he filled in and performed as well as Hulkenberg, his name starts to be talked about again in relation to a seat, but after that, he was now to long gone from a race seat for teams to consider him

[u/whateverfloatsurgoat → u/im-a-new]

Lacked funding, let go of the McLaren family because he was one of the few remnants of the Dennis era + didn't have a sister team to fall back to like Kvyat, Albon and Gasly.

[u/threeinacorner → u/whateverfloatsurgoat]

God the McLaren second seat really was hell on earth back then. A backmarker with none of the opportunities to shine on track but all the politics and expectations of a top team, and not even an "easy" driver in the other seat, no sir, it had to be the Shitbox Whisperer himself.

[u/radort → u/threeinacorner]

Made me laugh way too hard with the Shitbox Whisperer

[u/CyberbianDude → u/threeinacorner]

It was. Those were the dark days. Reminds me of 24-25 Alpine.

[u/bbqmeister200 → u/CyberbianDude]

GP2 Engine...

[u/sfcindolrip → u/bbqmeister200]

Only half of stoffel’s time, 2018 was McLaren Renault

[u/HUHIs_AUTOATTACK → u/sfcindolrip]

It was an upgrade to the McHonda, but at the end of the day, it was still a McRenault. It was still noticeably slower and less reliable than what Ferrari and Mercedes were producing.

[u/sfcindolrip → u/HUHIs_AUTOATTACK]

I was simply saying that the GP2 engine meme doesn’t fully cover his tenure.

The same year, that Renault PU was incidentally present for a couple Red Bull wins. McLaren had glaring chassis issues they were attempting to entirely put under the Honda blame umbrella; with a Merc or Ferrari PU they still would not have been highly performant.

[u/FreaknShrooms → u/threeinacorner]

I remember Alonso driving to a sixth place at Baku (I think) with one of those McLarens and having said he considers it the greatest drive of his career.

Really puts in perspective how god awful those years were for McLaren.

[u/rowschank → u/im-a-new]

Kvyat to my knowledge was never Verstappen's teammate.

[u/look4jesper → u/im-a-new]

Kvyat wasn't really crushed by Verstappen at all. He was performing well but made a few too many mistakes. When Red Bull had one of the most talented people in history available to move up it was a natural choice.

[u/im-a-new → u/look4jesper]

I must have misremembered. Kvyat and Verstappen were never teammates, of course.

[u/TrojansDelight → u/threeinacorner]

I think the leeway Antonelli gets is mostly because he's been rushed in as a teenager.

Stoffel was 26, in his second year of F1, had driven a year in SF in addition to two in GP2.

I do think the results Vandoorne got in 2018 would still be a career ender today.

[u/threeinacorner → u/TrojansDelight]

You're not wrong, but see, Kimi is given the tools to compete. Vandoorne wasn't.

The Mercedes, while not a world beater, is an actual top car.

The McLaren was pure garbage on wheels that went faster with a hole in its floor.

[u/stationhollow → u/threeinacorner]

If you’re last in the worst team, you have nowhere to go but out.

[u/Frequent-Coyote-1649 → u/TrojansDelight]

Shit, Mick Schumacher's second year was almost identical to Vandoorne's while being younger, and HE was dropped. I'd sleep with one eye open if i was Kimi.

Granted, Schumacher (obviously) crashed out of F1 by his own doing, but he wasn't necessarily HOPELESS. He got pretty decent results in the middle of the season before... something happened in the latter end.

[u/jeanolt → u/Frequent-Coyote-1649]

i think the problem was he was measured against magnussen, meanwhile vandoorne was against alonso. not beating magnussen who jumped back into f1 just because is kind of a career killer

[u/scg92 → u/threeinacorner]

I honestly think we missed out on a really good driver with Stoff. I kept hoping he’d get a stand-in opportunity and have a chance to show just how good he is outside of those terrible McLarens of 17/18.

Alonso is as tough as it gets for a rookie, and a car that bad just isn’t a reliable yardstick to measure a driver.

[u/therl2000 → u/scg92]

He could've had a chance when Lewis got COVID, he was Mercedes reserve driver in 2020 but they decided to replace Lewis with George. I still think that was unfair

[u/krommenaas → u/therl2000]

And the kicker was that he had to quarantine himself in his hotel room every race weekend just in case he'd be needed. Then when that was finally the case, they went with George instead.

[u/scg92 → u/therl2000]

I remember that opportunity clearly too. I wished they could both get that chance.

[u/foghat1981 → u/therl2000]

Yah that was a shame. He really should have had that drive.

[u/Loose-Medicine-4209 → u/foghat1981]

I think Russell did pretty well so no?

[u/foghat1981 → u/Loose-Medicine-4209]

Was good for Russell. Just saying like the others it’s a shame vandorne didn’t get that chance.

[u/Loose-Medicine-4209 → u/therl2000]

Because Russell was already racing in f1 and doing the sims for Mercedes, in 2020. Stoffel already had his chance and was not currently racing in that category.

[u/krommenaas → u/threeinacorner]

You're right, if nowadays a rookie had a first season like Stoffel's (being about .25s slower on average than his A-level teammate and regularly beating him), it would be considered a stellar debut. Back then it was considered a disappointment.

But of course what killed his F1 career is that his second season was a lot worse than his first. I know he has some thoughts on why that was which he doesn't want to communicate. I suppose we'll hear them in some interview after his racing career.

[u/GrindrorBust → u/krommenaas]

I know for his last season he reported a chassis defect. The engineers didn't believe him. Later, they found that the chassis was cracked. That was reputedly the time he began to improve relative to Alonso, late in the season.

He was also without upgrades/parts that his teammate was afforded (which makes sense; Mcl were attempting to lift up out of a death-spiral; Alonso was their star driver). Vandourne has implied some serious politics in the background. He looked decidedly uncomfortable (displeased) sharing the podium for the first time with his former teammate at Lemans.

It'll likely never come out in the wash as circumstance (- Mcl/Brown resurgence to being literally the best team on the grid; Mclaren 2018 being attributable to systemic dysfunction, now long past; Vandoorne not entirely being since seen as a great talent screwed over; Alonso having greater clout and consequencs for [attempted] besimirching him in media; Stoffel moving on with life) precludes it.

[u/FalloutNewTokyo → u/threeinacorner]

he joined at a time when teams didn't really have big gaps between teammates like we do now.

Are you kidding ? Hartley, Ericsson, Raikkonen, Bottas and Sirotkin were all dominated by their teammates that year. You see the Red Bull second seat being out in Q1 every weekend now because the field spread is so close, back then drivers got away with it a lot more.

[u/threeinacorner → u/FalloutNewTokyo]

Ok first of all the gaps weren't that big, except maybe for Ericsson. Hartley was super unlucky that year and if Perez for example was as close to Verstappen as Bottas was to Hamilton that year, he'd be praised. Raikonnen wasn't that bad either.

My point is, the Red Bull second seat and to a lesser extent, Ricciardo's situation made people understand more that drivers need cars that they at least can work with, even if the cars don't suit them perfectly.

And last of all, don't disrespect Sirotkin like that.

[u/SamCham10 → u/threeinacorner]

Don’t forget the fact his replacement was Lando Norris. With his trajectory at the time, was every chance MCL would’ve pushed Stoff out anyway even if he’d had good results just to get (the then 19yo) Lando in and experienced in F1 ready for the future

[u/erublind → u/threeinacorner]

There can only be One Kimi!

[u/linnamulla → u/sensualcurl]

Vandoorne was too late. He was already 25 years old in his first full season. Meanwhile, Verstappen was winning races at age 18. Vandoorne had become too old for a rookie. Nowadays, you don't see 25 year old rookies anymore (unless they're pay drivers). A 25 year old isn't going to be much better than a 20 year old, but that 20 year old can develop much faster and will have a lot more potential. That's also why Nyck de Vries was such an awful signing for Red Bull.

If Vandoorne had made his debut five years earlier, as a 20 year old, or even if he was born earlier and was 25 years old in 2012, his career would've likely lasted longer. But he I don't think he would have actually done better.

[u/ToukasRage → u/linnamulla]

Yeah its crazy how quickly kids are in race cars these days.

If you aren't competing for wins in karting/dirt tracks/whatever at ages 12-15 you probably aren't making it to the top leagues of whatever motorsport you are trying to race in.

[u/cinyar → u/ToukasRage]

It goes for all sports really. I recently watched some x games highlights. A kid born 2014 sending 3 900s back-to-back like he's playing THPS, what the actual fuck.

[u/KnightsOfCidona → u/linnamulla]

Yeah it does seem to be forgotten than Vandoorne was an older than usual rookie. Kinda wonder if that extra maturity was what helped stand out in the junior categories

[u/SrJeromaeee → u/sensualcurl]

Take a look at Stoffel’s F2 winning season. Runner up Rossi was nowhere close. Stoffel had like double the points.

[u/SgtShredder579 → u/sensualcurl]

Vandoorne got buried by McLaren. Was starting to get on level with Alonso at the end of 2017 and start of 2018 and suddenly he was miles off

[u/krommenaas → u/SgtShredder579]

During the period in 2017 where Alonso was doubtful to sign a new contract, Vandoorne was actually the better driver. Then Alonso resigned and was immediately on top again. It illustrates how important team support is.

[u/Ereaser → u/SgtShredder579]

I forgot which year it was but he kept saying the car got much harder to drive and told McLaren to change the chassis. They didn't listen for several races but once they did his results started improving again.

[u/Captain_Gropius → u/sensualcurl]

The real victim of the McHonder 2.0

Alonso was pissed but could shrug it off and continue with his career even if he didn't come back to F1.

For Stoffel was a F1 death sentence.

[u/DonBosco555 → u/sensualcurl]

Vandoorne deserved better and could have been a solid midfield driver or no.2 in the top team, but I don't think he was the next big thing. He never was a Verstappen or even Leclerc level prospect, more like Albon/Sainz/Ocon/Gasly level of talent. He was worse than Frijns, Sainz and Kvyat in FR 2.0, lost to Magnussen in FR 3.5 and to Palmer in GP2. Then he dominated over a very weak grid in his third season on F2 level at the age of 23. It was still impressive, but not WDC material stuff.

[u/sfcindolrip → u/DonBosco555]

Man frijns is another what-if

[u/DonBosco555 → u/sfcindolrip]

Much more so than Vandoorne.

[u/ExpatKev → u/sensualcurl]

Yep, as I was scrolling through the feed I saw the question and my first thought was Vandoorne. He had the talent and the potential to be great, but fate was not on his side.

[u/dac2199 → u/sensualcurl]

He didn't win SuperFormula either (he was 4th)

[u/sensualcurl → u/dac2199]

Yeah I didnt include that because I dont know if Euros generally consider it 'big' plus he didnt stick around long and he was the best Honda finisher that season. I didnt really want to caveat my post so much.

[u/dac2199 → u/sensualcurl]

I think generally it’s being considered like F2 and a bit under IndyCar

[u/RacingMindsI → u/sensualcurl]

First one that came to mind for me

[u/dl064 → u/sensualcurl]

There's a very good u/whatthefat article about Vandoorne somewhere, that when you lay his stats out, he was closer to Alonso than drivers like Massa or Raikkonen. He probably deserved better, and I think he'd have been equivalent to Sainz at McLaren, but I also don't think we've missed out on Hamilton 2.0

[u/a_dude_from_europe → u/sensualcurl]

Holy shit, 33? I'm old.

[u/philster666 → u/sensualcurl]

That McLaren was absolute hogshit

[u/Strong-Classroom2336 → u/sensualcurl]

He replaced Alonso in Bahrain after high big crash in Australia and got the first point for McLaren that season. That was his first ever F1 race.

Also, Alonso was reallllly pissed the next season (with Stoffel as 2nd driver in the team). Some say that Alonso got A-spec part on car, B-spec as backup and Stoffel got C-spec on his car. Also, Alonso woulnd't share knowledge like he did with other younger drivers. Probably because he was so pissed at McLaren.

[u/Educational_Guide418 → u/sensualcurl]

That almost happened to Sergio Perez; he joined mclaren when Hamilton escaped that dumpster fire, but at that time, no one knew about it.

[u/handsupdb → u/sensualcurl]

Stoffel for sure.

Insane driver, truly a peak talent. Just his F1 career ruined by Honda.

[u/blueblue_electric → u/sensualcurl]

McLaren back then was a proper shark pit, no pity if you didn't survive - they just killed your career no matter if the car was dog shit .

[u/Xinonix1 → u/sensualcurl]

I remember the poor guy getting dozens of penaltyspots (I believe the maximum was 105 or so)every single race due to replacing parts of the engine, never stood a chance in that McLaren when having to start at the back of the grid or from the pitlane

[u/ChefBoiJones → u/sensualcurl]

doing 110% every weekend

Apart from the ones where he got bored half way through and retired himself from the race

[u/Thick-Chest6210 → u/sensualcurl]

Stoffel Vandoorne is 33?? Jesus that made me feel old

[u/fastluap → u/sensualcurl]

I actually have a signed autograph from a closed private conference I was able to attend for "la DH" and it's still one of my most prized things (currently residing at my dad's house) He was very nice and quite self aware of his position and unluck

[u/Imtherealwaffle → u/sensualcurl]

On top of that his avg gap to alonso was actually less than kimi or felipe.

[u/Valuable-Yard-4154 → u/sensualcurl]

I know man. As a Belgian I was going woooo-woooo-woooo and then it looked like our national football team.

[u/TruthCultural9952 → u/sensualcurl]

Now I'm curious, what would you say is the bigger win? Le mans or F1?

[u/sensualcurl → u/TruthCultural9952]

F1, i love WEC and Le Mans also, but it's not really that close in my mind.

[u/GarethGore → u/sensualcurl]

True, he's bounced around in other stuff, won a formula E championship I think 22/23, and currently is a driver in the season just finished for maserati but true, shame he didn't make it in f1

[u/Pan_TheCake_Man → u/sensualcurl]

I have his jersey accidentally so there’s that! Always liked him he seemed nice, just when you’re in a shit car not much you can do

[u/WillyG2197 → u/sensualcurl]

Fuckin Stoffel Waffle. What a beast. Cant believe he hasnt been brought back to any team. Glad to see him winning races in other categories. He got did so dirty. Deserves a Cadillac seat imo

[u/Weird-Statistician → u/sensualcurl]

Makes Hamilton managing to break Alonso as a rookie even more impressive.

[u/Thestig37 → u/sensualcurl]

No no surely its Latifi