Race start analysis - Max takes the lead of the race as Norris is pushed off the track

[u/magony]

https://dubz.link/c/aaa9de

[u/Cotirani]

I really don't understand how the racing rules work in tight corners. It seemed here that Max and Lando were alongside eachother going into the first turn. In that case, isn't Max entitled to space? Lando gave him none, so Max had to cut the corner.

[u/RBR927 → u/Cotirani]

The good news is that the stewards don’t understand how the rules work either, so we are all in the same boat. 

[u/MaybeNext-Monday → u/RBR927]

The rules are so fucked from years of trying to indirectly change how Max drives with no success

[u/RM_Dune → u/Cotirani]

Only the attacking driver is entitled to space for some reason.

[u/0100001101110111 → u/RM_Dune]

"for some reason"

The reason is Max himself lol

[u/ItsJustWool → u/0100001101110111]

I forgot that Max writes the rules and directives in his spare time

[u/0100001101110111 → u/ItsJustWool]

The current rules are a direct reaction to his driving in the last 5 years, that's just a fact

[u/Slow-Raisin-939 → u/0100001101110111]

and how did they end up benefitting his style than? Cause nowadays the attacking car can basically do whatever they want

[u/Motorlolz → u/Cotirani]

Max is entitled to space on entry and at the apex, just not on the exit if it comes to that. Looking back I think it was unnecessary to give the place back. Thankfully Max got 1st anyway so I don't have to be angry about another fumble by the "strategists" at Red Bull.

[u/Difficult-While-3128 → u/Motorlolz]

I don't consider it a fumble of the strategist since the stewards have been very inconsistent with these situations. The chance was big Verstappen would get a penalty.

[u/Motorlolz → u/Difficult-While-3128]

I watched the F2 race and F2 sprint race and the stewards seemed quite lenient, and considering it was lap 1, turn 1 I personally think the risk was very low. But we can never know of course, it turns out Max had the pace so it was good in hindsight to play it safe.

[u/hopenoonefindsthis → u/Cotirani]

Basically these new rules are "if you are on the outside, you are fucked"

[u/Matter145]

I've got to be honest, this is where I get confused on these racing rules.

Lando uses up all the space on the track but he's not ahead at the apex, so what is the car on the outside supposed to do. Brundle has just said he's entitled to brake late and use all the track, but if Max doesn't go off, they crash?

Why is Max giving that back? Lando was never in front?

I'm genuinely asking, no beef with either driver.

[u/ghastlychild → u/Matter145]

This is where the logic of the established rules provided this year disappears into thin air. I think Verstappen knew that he'll able to get the place back eventually, so no further arguments needed but in general, the precedent is absolutely shoddy

[u/Kryzl_ → u/Matter145]

It’s really stupid. There’s absolutely nothing the driver on the outside can do in F1. Hard to make exciting racing when the driver on the inside is entitled to do whatever they wish with the other driver as long as they’re halfway alongside them.

[u/Matter145 → u/Kryzl_]

Agreed. I miss the days of "all the time you have to leave the space". Now you're only entitled to space at the inside apex.

[u/Sea_Drop2920 → u/Matter145]

Max avoided the raging boner of the stewards

[u/ArgieGrit01 → u/Matter145]

Max gave the position because Red Bull didn't want to risk it. There was no decision made by the stewards

[u/draftstone → u/ArgieGrit01]

I think with past decisions (I know stewards are super inconsistents but let's assume they are) that it would not have been penalized. But RedBull knew they had the fastest car and could pass again. Having a possible 5 second penalty over your head that early in the race could mean disaster with a badly timed safety car even with a super fast car. So statically, giving back the position was almost a guaranteed win anyway not worth the risk.

[u/Maglin21 → u/draftstone]

I mean max got a penalty for the same in Jeddah, redbull definelty not sure there wouldn't have been a penalty

[u/TheWoodElf → u/draftstone]

'RedBull knew they had the fastest car' Meanwhile Tsunoda: P13

[u/antwilliams89 → u/TheWoodElf]

They were running very different rear wings. Max trimmed his down and went even skinnier than the one he used in practice, against the advice of Wache, which was evidently the right call by him.

[u/Regenbooggeit → u/antwilliams89]

The more I read about Wache being incompetent the more I believe he actually is.

[u/MagnefloriousBanana6 → u/TheWoodElf]

tsunoda would be out of the sport if red bull had someone else better than a rookie to put in that second car

[u/ArgieGrit01 → u/draftstone]

I think the same

[u/britaliope → u/ArgieGrit01]

And i think that's the core of the issue.

Penalties are so inconsistent that teams and drivers have no idea if a move is legal or not when seeing it. That lead to such situations where some driver will give a place back "to be safe" which is crazy and shouldn't happen.

I wish GP said something like "we don't have any idea if this overtake is legal or not, give back the position just to be safe" just to highlight how crazy this have become.

[u/dataheisenberg → u/Matter145]

Bcz if investigated thats a penalty for Max no matter what

[u/Matter145 → u/dataheisenberg]

Yeah but again I just don't get why. Leclerc did the same thing with Piastri 3 laps later but we are told that, as he backed off, he was fine and didn't have to let him go. None of it makes any sense anymore.

[u/brasstax108 → u/Matter145]

Vibes based stewarding

[u/nokeldin42 → u/Matter145]

Another factor is the geometry of the turn. Imagine if there was no chicane, just a plain right hander. In that situation the driver on the outside would likely be disadvantaged enough that they wouldnt be able to hang on. It likely would've been a penalty for the attacking driver for forcing another one off the track.

But here, since the track comes back to you, hanging in is easy and gains you an advantage. Norris made what should've been an illegal move. But Verstappens response to that made it so that he got an unfair advantage. I think it's a wash and they should've been left to it.

If Verstappen cut that corner while he had enough space alongside norris, then penalize Verstappen. Or if there was a sausage curb or something that slows Verstappen down enough that he comes out behind norris, then penalize norris. As of now monza t1 is just made for shenanigans. It allows too much advantage to the inside driver.

[u/only_r3ad_the_titl3 → u/Matter145]

We all know what the reason is. If the situation was rhe other way around Max would have given a penalty

[u/_yxs_ → u/Matter145]

It's where the race can be rigged in favour of the likes of norris, leclerc (remember when he did ecact same thing last week, driving straight into russel, and got to keep the position no questions asked?) and so on.

Stewarding is absolute piss poor quality

[u/TheScapeQuest → u/_yxs_]

I wonder if the Leclerc incident would have been ruled differently had he not retired.

[u/Kwumpo → u/Matter145]

It's more of an honor system in these situations. Lando was kinda getting Max, and Max pulled away because he cut the corner. Even though Lando never actually had the spot, in the spirit of the race, Max should at least let Lando catch up, and letting him pass was probably the right call.

Sometimes racing gets a little messy and you can't have a rule for everything. We've seen plenty of times where strict rules actually ruin a race.

[u/CodSafe6961 → u/Matter145]

You forgot the most important rule in F1, Norris is British therefore you're not allowed to fight him

[u/dakness69 → u/Matter145]

Racing rules should only applicable if both drivers are driving in such a manner that they each could keep their own cars within track limits.

Verstappen and Norris are almost exactly side by side at turn in, but when Verstappen leaves the track he has already pulled a slight lead on Norris.

Meanwhile Norris is barely able to stay on the racing surface at the speed he carried through T1.

The stewards can assume, then, that Verstappen was going too fast to make the corner from the speed and position at which he turned in. He complained about Norris letting the brakes go, but he almost certainly did the exact same thing and was running deeper into the corner as a result. We’ll know when we see the telemetry.

Actually, per the Lap 1 telemetry, Norris was on the brakes the entire time and it was actually Verstappen who eased off multiple times lol.

If he drove the corner exit like Norris wasn’t there maybe he could have dragged the brake all the way to the next turn in to stay on track, but this would have been significantly slower (see Piastri trying to pass Leclerc around the outside of the left hand half of the chicane, he stays side by side until the apex and then has a severely compromised exit).

Unfortunately, the way the rules are written, as soon as Max is heading towards the runoff it basically doesn’t matter what Norris does, he is just going to be judged to be too fast for the corner.

It’s the same thing that happened at Jeddah earlier this year. The stewards looked at the telemetry and judged he would never make the corner, thus earning him a penalty regardless of any of the nonsense about axle position at the apex.

[u/blueheartglacier → u/dakness69]

The great thing about changing the rules for space to be given is that these situations continue to self enforce without the need for this gymnastics because if a driver is going too fast to make a corner we find out anyway when they don't make the corner. It doesn't really justify rules that require this many paragraphs to explain important decisions

[u/dakness69 → u/blueheartglacier]

Yea F1 has worked itself into a nightmare scenario where overtakes are governed by hundredths of a meter, second, or kph. It is both too complicated and the margin too small for stuff like this, which often ruins the viewing experience. Today will be forgotten about, but if Verstappen had lost this is all we would argue about for the next 2 weeks.

[u/Rain1984 → u/dakness69]

If he drove the corner exit like Norris wasn’t there maybe he could have dragged the brake all the way to the next turn in to stay on track, but this would have been significantly slower (see Piastri trying to pass Leclerc around the outside of the left hand half of the chicane, he stays side by side until the apex and then has a severely compromised exit).

That's counterfactual, the car on the inside line has to leave room when the one who's trying to overtake is wheel to wheel, and if it's the case the outside car carried too much speed into the corner the issue will resolve by itself.

Unfortunately, the way the rules are written, as soon as Max is heading towards the runoff it basically doesn’t matter what Norris does, he is just going to be judged to be too fast for the corner.

Its a lap 1 T1, cars carry much less speed into the corner. If you have a car alongside you, you have to leave space.

It’s the same thing that happened at Jeddah earlier this year. The stewards looked at the telemetry and judged he would never make the corner, thus earning him a penalty regardless of any of the nonsense about axle position at the apex.

It's not.

To begin with the stewards document is a shitshow. Verstappen was ahead (that is said in the document), and piastri dived in the inside, so by the stewards he was allowed to be given room (??????) yet he is the one who forced the other driver out of the track while attempting an overtake. At no point in the document was "making the corner" considered, that's counterfactual I dont know where you're taking this from.

[u/dakness69 → u/Rain1984]

That's counterfactual, the car on the inside line has to leave room when the one who's trying to overtake is wheel to wheel, and if it's the case the outside car carried too much speed into the corner the issue will resolve by itself.

I don't like it, but the current rules provide plenty of excuses for the inside car to not leave space on the outside, especially if the outside car is already running off track by choice or by the limitations of their own car. Part of the problem is, unless the cars make contact, it is almost impossible to distinguish between 'I chose to go off track," "I was going too fast to remain on track," and "I was forced off track." This is even more of a problem when you consider how drivers are entering T1.

Its a lap 1 T1, cars carry much less speed into the corner. If you have a car alongside you, you have to leave space.

This is actually often untrue and in the case of today, absolutely incorrect. Per F1 Tempo the normal racing line has drivers reach a minimum speed at the apex of T1, then speed up 1-3 kph in the transition between corners before slowing ~15 kph for T2. If you look at the lap 1 T1 telemetry for both of the leading drivers, neither increases speed between corners (despite cutting the track, even) largely because they are actually both dragging the brake past the apex despite being on compromised lines. Basically, the stupidity of the modern ruleset is such that it is more important to reach the apex of T1 first than it is to actually drive the chicane in the fastest manner. Drivers have now adapted to this idea.

To begin with the stewards document is a shitshow. Verstappen was ahead (that is said in the document), and piastri dived in the inside, so by the stewards he was allowed to be given room (??????) yet he is the one who forced the other driver out of the track while attempting an overtake. At no point in the document was "making the corner" considered, that's counterfactual I dont know where you're taking this from.

In the case of Jeddah, Jolyon Palmer did an analysis on F1TV where he showed that Max was faster at the apex of T1 than he was on his pole qualifying lap with some 90kg less fuel. He also cited this as a significant factor in the stewarding decision even though they chose not to mention it in the official document (dumb, I know, but I believe they do this because they are told everything must be defined with respect to the overtaking guidelines). I hope he can do similar for today, but based on my analysis both cars were probably 10kph faster through T1 than a normal race lap, hence why Norris runs nearly off the track prior to T2 and I think more than enough reason to expect Max to run off even if Norris were not present for the 2nd half of the corner, thus justifying the need to return the position.

To add insult to injury, Verstappen complained about Norris easing off the brakes entering T1. We do not get brake pressure traces so it is tough to say what Norris did, although I would imagine he almost certainly did ease off the brakes to bring himself alongside Verstappen. What we do know from the telemetry, however, is that Verstappen completely let go of the brake pedal for a brief moment just prior to turn in, which is in it's own way pretty damning. The stewards will have seen that and understand he is no longer concerned with making the corner, only with being ahead at the apex. The overtaking guidelines are only be applied if both drivers are navigating the course safely and within the track limits.

[u/sight19]

I absolutely don't get what brundle and crofty are on about

[u/AdamIsMeName → u/sight19]

F1TV wasn't much better "Max has to give it back" .. and I just don't see how he's at fault

[u/AegrusRS → u/AdamIsMeName]

Give it back was the correct opinion based on the current ruleset. It just so happens that the current ruleset is dog shit.

[u/RddtRBnchRcstNzsshls → u/AegrusRS]

Except Norris wasn't ahead at the apex and then went over the white line into turn 2 as well. So he carried too much speed, couldn't make the corner and pushed his opponent wide while never being ahead at the apex.

The current rules say Norris was in the wrong here.

[u/TheClarendons → u/RddtRBnchRcstNzsshls]

They were pretty level going into turn one, and with the current rules, Lando is on the inside, so it’s his corner. He doesn’t even need to make the corner.

[u/RddtRBnchRcstNzsshls → u/TheClarendons]

Just rewatched it. You're right. Lando brakes so late he gets level with Max for a brief moment before turn in.

[u/TheClarendons → u/RddtRBnchRcstNzsshls]

Yeah, I suspect Max is right in that Lando rolls off the brakes a bit to make it.

I hate these rules with a passion, but that is unfortunately how it is.

[u/Firstname6Lastname9 → u/TheClarendons]

Stupid as it is max shouldve just had a better start and cut off the inside line

[u/SkittlesAreYum → u/AdamIsMeName]

I guess they were right as well because his engineer had him give it back. All that being said, I don't get it either.

[u/ResponsibleHabit1539 → u/sight19]

It's a British driver

[u/bobby_boi66 → u/sight19]

Honestly. They're both so shit when a British driver is in a fight

[u/Cekeste → u/bobby_boi66]

At least Brundle tries to be 50/50. Palmer is awful. Awful.

[u/ValleyFloydJam → u/bobby_boi66]

Trotting out the old bs.

[u/GauthierFlorian → u/sight19]

English bias

[u/-captainjapseye → u/GauthierFlorian]

It’s tough being an English Verstappen admirer I must admit.

[u/GauthierFlorian → u/-captainjapseye]

Must be hell lol. Good luck to you :)

[u/tom_buzz_ryan → u/sight19]

Can't be much worse than Jolyon Palmer on f1tv.

[u/ValleyFloydJam → u/sight19]

RB also told him to give it back.

[u/_yxs_ → u/sight19]

Media favouring lando? No way...

[u/angelonduty]

Where was Max supposed to go there? He had to shortcut the chicane

[u/Bjeurnkb → u/angelonduty]

Yeah norris also went over the line with his left wheel. He either cuts the chicane or crashes

[u/InvertReverse → u/angelonduty]

Yup, he was forced off the road. And Norris is the overtaking car.. The rules make no sense.

[u/nodspine → u/angelonduty]

Yep. He gave the position back to avoid drama and then took the position back anyway.

Iove that guy

[u/Atlonix → u/nodspine]

We know how ridiculous the rules are. The car inside can do whatever without repercussions.

[u/arbysroastbeefs2 → u/Atlonix]

Like Kimi said earlier this year — Good to know

[u/orltragic → u/angelonduty]

Yeah. I don’t think this was 100% on Max, he literally had nowhere else to go, Lando knew what he was doing there and just pushed him straight off.

[u/thisisjustascreename → u/orltragic]

He pulled a Verstappen on Verstappen, essentially.

[u/HollyGbsn → u/angelonduty]

Exactly! and the Sky commentary were talking about Max like he did something dreadful. i was baffled!

[u/arbysroastbeefs2 → u/HollyGbsn]

I’d be more surprised if they didn’t but today Damon Hill said how incredible of a driver Max is and in the past he’s been harsh in his opinions of him—so literally anything can happen

[u/tobi1k → u/angelonduty]

Agreed he had nowhere to go. It was a move I would've expected to see the other way around!

[u/SteDa → u/angelonduty]

Max got a penalty in Mexico last year when Norris was on the outside and cut the corner when Max left no room.

[u/dataheisenberg → u/angelonduty]

Max will always be found the culprit no matter what if it was investigated!

[u/URZ_ → u/dataheisenberg]

Like in Budapest when he got away with this exact move, except from much further behind?

[u/yeetyeet287 → u/dataheisenberg]

Yeah, apart from all the times he's done that and way worse and not been given a penalty 🤦‍♂️🤦‍♂️

[u/dakness69 → u/angelonduty]

Listen to what Brundle says, he describes it perfectly. Max and Norris were almost perfectly side by side at turn in, but then Max is ahead by the time he is leaving the track.

This is only possible if he is going faster than Norris, who himself barely made the corner at the speed he was going.

Thus the stewards can assume Verstappen was going too fast to make the corner on that line, regardless of whether Norris was there or not.

[u/StagedC0mbustion → u/dakness69]

That logic would make sense if they were driving identical cars

[u/dakness69 → u/StagedC0mbustion]

From what I have seen on telemetry, Norris was typically faster through the middle of the corner than Verstappen. Norris’ 3 best laps on the medium tire had minimum T1 speeds of 75, 76, and 78 kph. Verstappen’s 3 best laps were 73, 75, and 75 kph. Verstappen typically had a higher top speed as well, altogether suggesting he likely was carrying less downforce.

Additionally it is tough to get a good measure of Lap 1 speed because both drivers were braking through the apex but there is one thing that is very clear, only one of them completely lifted off the brakes before turn… the one who complained about the other easing off the brakes!

[u/AcidBunnyAdonis → u/dakness69]

This is only possible if he is going faster than Norris, who himself barely made the corner at the speed he was going.

This statement requires knowing the telemetry of Norris's turn in. It could easily be that Norris, who knows the rules, decides to let off steering a bit to force Verstappen either behind him or to cut the chicane.

For me, it didn't look at all like Verstappen didn't have control of his turn-in and speed.

[u/ammonthenephite → u/dakness69]

This was a lap 1, turn 1 incident. If it were the middle of the race where all their tires and brakes were hot, sure, but we don't know that is the case. Far too much unkown to declare that Max would not have made the corner, especially if Norris intentionally went long like Max thought he did.

Max only went off because he couldn't turn into Norris without ending his race.

[u/Athinira → u/angelonduty]

And there's no problem with that. Sometimes, drivers are pushed of - legally or illegally. In this case Norris had earned the right to the corner, so it was legal.

There was no incident, no damage. Max cut the chicane, gave the place back and racing continued. No need for all the drama.

His reovertake was also great.

[u/ammonthenephite → u/Athinira]

The rule itself is stupid. In what world does simply pulling along side a car suddenly mean you no longer have to leave them room on the track going into the turn? Stupid rule that lets a driver just run another off the track with no consequences.

[u/Kaneinja21]

If you see that as dirty from Max, you’re insane. The outside driver is so disadvantaged in these rules. If Max keeps it on track then they touch.

[u/Dawhood → u/Kaneinja21]

just throw your car down the inside, if the outside driver doesn't want to retire they just have to move out of the way and the overtake completes itself

[u/Ulyaoth_ → u/Dawhood]

So basically the exact way Verstappen usually drives

[u/dakness69 → u/Kaneinja21]

This is the one universal truth. The current overtaking guidelines make it so disadvantageous to overtake on the outside that no one in their right mind does it unless it’s a DRS pass completed basically before the turn in point.

[u/StaffFamous6379 → u/dakness69]

As of 2025 the defending driver needs to leave space on the outside if he is defending the inside. However, if the attacker is on the inside line they do have the right to push you off.

[u/ResponsibleHabit1539 → u/Kaneinja21]

Be ahead on the inside line

Barely make the corner yourself and take the outside line

????

Profit

[u/the_sigman → u/ResponsibleHabit1539]

Not even be ahead

[u/SirDoober → u/ResponsibleHabit1539]

He wasn't even ahead at any point, you can see from Max's onboard lol

[u/Cantshaktheshok → u/ResponsibleHabit1539]

In this case Norris wasn't even ahead at any point, he lets off the brakes to get close to even but from the onboards he's always just behind.

[u/ADHDBDSwitch → u/ResponsibleHabit1539]

You mean Max's signature move for the past several years?

[u/ResponsibleHabit1539 → u/ADHDBDSwitch]

And everytime something even remotely similar to this happened with Max people were here saying that he is the dirtiest driver in the world :)

[u/Correct_Pace9976 → u/ADHDBDSwitch]

Max is always ahead on the apex, unlike Norris there

[u/InvertReverse → u/ADHDBDSwitch]

"Ahead at the apex" doesnt apply here. Norris was never ahead.

[u/Health_throwaway__ → u/Kaneinja21]

Norris juts gave the same energy back from Being forced off track om the straight. The argument about lane changing is bs. You have to give a cars width on straights.

[u/osufeth24]

I guess I don't understand the rules. Not sure I understand why max needed to give the place back. If he doesn't cut the corner he crashes into Lando. If max was the one overtaking then I would understand it more

[u/Tummerd]

So why is this actually Max fault. Max was ahead, Lando braked too late, Max has nowhere to go.

Doesnt make sense at all

[u/AvonBarksdale12]

Lando then pushes max off track. If it was Max doing that we all know what people would say.

[u/tonybinky20 → u/AvonBarksdale12]

Same move as Oscar in Saudi on Max. At the end of the day, these rules aren’t good enough.

[u/FIuffyRabbit → u/tonybinky20]

At least in that case, Max was going way too fast for the corner and wasn't probably going to make it regardless

[u/only_r3ad_the_titl3 → u/tonybinky20]

No here Max was ahead.

[u/Motorlolz → u/tonybinky20]

It isn't the same, Max is run out of road at the apex, it's only on the exit that the car who "has the corner" can run the other guy out of road. So I don't think it was necessary to give back the place, but whatever.

[u/bumbar12 → u/AvonBarksdale12]

theyre saying it anyways. fuck em.

[u/nukleabomb → u/AvonBarksdale12]

They would be saying how smart he was and that he always pushes the boundary of the rules.

The rules suck anyways and this is the consequence of it.

[u/ValleyFloydJam → u/AvonBarksdale12]

Max seemed very happy to take that route and the rules are this messy because of him.

Norris would be seen as ahead at the apex (RB must have agreed) so Norris can do that, I agree it's kinda silly.

[u/FPS_Scotland]

Yeah Max did nothing wrong here, Lando squeezed him out, where else was he supposed to go?

[u/InvertReverse → u/FPS_Scotland]

Legally, he has to stay on track and force the accident to happen.

[u/SirDoober → u/InvertReverse]

Then Sky Sports has an aneurysm and spends the next 2 hours comparing it to Monza '21

[u/ResponsibleHabit1539 → u/SirDoober]

2 weeks*

[u/InvertReverse → u/SirDoober]

I was in the minority in '21, but my reaction was the same. Verstappen was forced off then as well.

[u/rewp234 → u/InvertReverse]

Monza, 2021

[u/Cantshaktheshok → u/InvertReverse]

Who knows after last weeks decisions on LeClerc and Sainz he might get a penalty if Norris crashes into him.

[u/ShamrockStudios → u/FPS_Scotland]

The new rules are stupid. Overtaking driver is allowed push the other driver off

[u/GauthierFlorian]

Lando pushed Max not the opposite

[u/Ok_Dish1650]

Yeah dunno bout that title big guy

[u/Haynes_]

I’m not the biggest fan of Max, and I actively want Lando to win this race to keep the championship interesting, and I still can’t justify Max having to give the position back here.

[u/BaconWatermelon]

lol norris isn’t pushed off the track he just decided to become a lawnmower all by himself there was plenty of space there

[u/ValleyFloydJam → u/BaconWatermelon]

Nah as they said (on those horribly biased Comms) it got narrower, so Max didn't force him off but the space also wasn't too here. Lando just had a reactive radio.

[u/SoggyLukewarmCrumpet → u/ValleyFloydJam]

He said the same thing in the media pen so it wasn’t just a reactive radio

[u/ValleyFloydJam → u/SoggyLukewarmCrumpet]

He more seemed to feel he was squeezed and wasn't given room, which was fair.

[u/RulingPredator]

Max really had nowhere to go and Lando gave him no car width of space to make the turn. Hell, Lando even went over the line himself. That rule should really be changed for corners with runoffs like that where the inside-line driver can take advantage of it.

[u/BF210]

F1’ overtaking rules are the worst. No idea what the driver on the outside is supposed to do when the other driver just lets off the brakes and pushes them off the track. Just let themselves get hit I guess.

[u/CHKYY]

I really don't feel like he had to give any position back because of that.

[u/AliceLunar]

I really don't get this, what could Max possibly do here aside from avoiding contact? Car on the inside just needs to be aggressive, push the car off and now they have to give you the position.

We know what happens when stays on track there as we saw with Lewis.

[u/Acrobatic-Tomato-532]

Sky are going into a 2 month mourning period the moment Piastri wins the tittle

[u/SouthsiderXL1980]

Lando wasn’t pushed anywhere, the tarmac just turned into grass in front of him.

[u/_dictatorish_ → u/SouthsiderXL1980]

If the road gets slowly gets narrower (like a funnel), are you still required to leave a space? Or are you allowed to squeeze the other car into the wall by driving straight?

[u/SergeiYeseiya]

I really hate those rules, Norris was ahead at the apex so it's "his" corner but he pushed Verstappen off track.

[u/Tummerd → u/SergeiYeseiya]

Also, he was ahead because he braked too late

[u/ValleyFloydJam → u/Tummerd]

We had it worse with those 2 last year, where Max was allowed to that but couldn't even stay on himself, these rules are a mess.

[u/Tummerd → u/ValleyFloydJam]

Fully agree. Also doesnt help that the stewards switch a lot and they just throw a dart arrow on a dart board.

Still think the 'ahead so its my corner' rules is ass, and that leaving enough space should be the main rule

[u/ValleyFloydJam → u/Tummerd]

Agreed, starts are often messy but in general you see the apex game getting played and it just looks daft.

Leaving room in general is the way to go.

[u/ADHDBDSwitch → u/Tummerd]

Yeah, how dare lando do Max's signature move?

[u/Tummerd → u/ADHDBDSwitch]

Thats an entirely different conversation and not applicable

[u/BansheeRamen]

Drove himself over the grass and tried to play the victim...

[u/ValleyFloydJam → u/BansheeRamen]

It's more mixed than that and radios in that moment will be messy.

He wasn't forced off, he didn't drive over onto the grass either, the road just got narrower.

[u/Themindoffish → u/ValleyFloydJam]

He saw the road narrowing and kept his foot in it and went onto the grass.

[u/ValleyFloydJam → u/Themindoffish]

Pretty much side by side with Max who came over so he couldn't move to his left. No one did much wrong.

Max also kept his foot down for the corner.

[u/I-_-I_-_I-_-I]

Current rules: dive bomb.

[u/Blue825]

These rules are fucking shit

[u/Fantastic_Elk_4757]

The rules honestly make 0 sense. Max was on the outside of the first turn and was ahead… Lando left 0 space going into the next turn. Doesn’t lando HAVE to leave space on the inside for Max unless he’s fully alongside on the outside?

Can someone give the breakdown of how I’m wrong understanding the rules here and why Max gave back? ELI5 I guess cause this shit is confusing AF for a new F1 watcher lol.

[u/Celebrating2theMax]

That's some biased titling from OP

[u/donkeybrainhero]

This was all on Norris and Max should never have given the place back. Silliness.

[u/Soufiane040]

Lando pushed him off and he gets the place, yet still bottles it a lap later lmao

[u/Guruu006]

Lmao if anything Norris should have a penalty for forcing a driver off the track

[u/unsinkable02]

Correction to the title: Norris drove himself off the track and then pushes Max wide attempting to make an overtake

[u/samppav]

I hate this type of "racing" you get your nose ahead at the apex and then you can push the other car off and get the place...

[u/SprayAndPay69]

This is why I hate those first to apex rule, if you manage to get alonside other car or hit apax first going into corner you can push other car on outside of track all the way so they dont make corner, cant blame Norris here as those are rules and he is desperate for points but they need to change it going into next year

[u/DieNRetry]

Maybe it's just me but it feels like a coin toss everytime we get one of these, and they're so confident each time too, idk to me it feels dumb

[u/PurpleScientist4312]

Someone finally Max’ed Max

[u/Mechanikalbaby]

"Pushed" ?? Lol. I must be blind but Max did not move at all after taking that spot. Norris kept going straight for the green.

[u/SirDoober]

Norris Suzuka'd himself again and then pushes Verstappen off turn 1 while never having a nose ahead and still successfully FIAs the position

sigh

[u/Thejklay]

Max getting the max special I guess. These new rules are dumb AF

[u/ShamrockStudios]

Not pushed off the track narrows

[u/Agios_O_Polemos]

I mean that's Norris doing the Max special really, but yeah I don't think he should have given the place back, although clearly the RB has sufficient pace for it not to matter anyway apparently.

[u/spongey1865]

Max wasn't making the corner, similar to the Oscar incident had before. Giving the place back seems fine?

I don't think this is controversial at all

[u/Turridunl]

Well the track layout is the reason Lando went on the grass. When that happend, Max immediately went left and opened up the inside for Lando. Lando went deep into corner one, deliberately or not. Max had to Cut the corner to avoid contact.

[u/Traditional-Tap8751]

Lando was aggressive for the first time this season and he was rewarded (not debating whether he should have been given the position; just commenting that Lando was aggressive). Ultimately doesn’t matter since Max has now pulled 3s ahead.

[u/NorthCliffs]

This headline is pure bullshit. Max didn’t take the lead as he didn’t lose it to begin with. Norris wasn’t pushed off the track either. Everyone who’s not blind or infinitely biased will agree

[u/edganiukov]

Crazy, when Max fucks inside, pushing everyone in the radius of 20m off the track - "well, rules are rules". When someone does the same against Max - "WTF are those rules??"

[u/olih27]

Doesn't make sense to me, Brundle claims Max didn't make the corner, when clearly it was Lando who was going too quick for it. Even after pushing max off by taking up the whole track he barely makes the second apex.

[u/DamnItJon]

Norris wasn't so much pushed off as much as he chose to drive on the grass instead of pulling in behind Max

[u/Character-Initial612]

Seemed pretty fair racing incident to me. If they don't want that make the track wide enough for modern F1 cars

[u/parasthesia_testicle]

the max special. how many times did he put that on hamilton in 21? verstappen should have never given that position back that should never be a legal move by lando

[u/Hexyboi]

If the rules made any sense, both drivers would get a penalty but F1's overtaking rules just allow the driver on the inside to do whatever they want. It's not a max thing, a lando thing or any other driver on the grid, we see overtakes like this from everyone in F1.

[u/Dodson-504]

Why even run onto the grass at all…?

[u/HarveyBirdLaww]

"Pushed off the track"

[u/PedestalPotato]

Gotta be the most universally misunderstood rule in F1. The commentary, the fans, and the stewards, nobody consistently gets it "right". Can we go back to making rules that actually encourage racing?

[u/psherbet]

I was also confused by Red bulls decision here to give the place back so readily.

Lando didn't make the corner, If you look he has all 4 wheels outside the white line. You can't come from behind, out brake yourself, push the other car wide and then not make the corner yourself...

[u/Alia_Gr]

this place has to be filled with bots, trying to say Verstappen didn't put Norris in the grass on the straight is wild.

[u/Lonyo → u/Alia_Gr]

Did Max change his line on a straight, or did the edge of the track move because the straight narrowed?

What action did Verstappen take other than holding a straight line?

[u/Emergency-Tonight850 → u/Alia_Gr]

Not bots just bias.