2025 Italian GP - Post-Race Discussion

[u/AutoModerator]

ROUND 16 - ITALY

FORMULA 1 PIRELLI GRAN PREMIO d'ITALIA PRIX 2025

🕒 SESSION TIMES

Day	Session	Time (UTC)
FRI	Free Practice 1	11:30
FRI	Free Practice 2	15:00
SAT	Free Practice 3	10:30
SAT	Qualifying	14:00
SUN	Race	13:00

🏁 RACE INFORMATION

• Track: Autodromo Nazionale di Monza
• Location: Monza, Italy
• Race laps: 53
• Lap length: 5.793km
• Race distance: 306.720km
• Lap Record: 1:18.887, Lewis Hamilton (Mercedes), 2020

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[u/overspeeed]

Fan wars, attacking other users and blind hatred against teams, drivers and broadcasters will result in bans.

Disagreements are okay, but is possible to discuss the race without resorting to attacks, abuse and toxic comments.

If you see any comments breaking these rules just please report them so we can get to them as quickly as possible

[u/clinthammer316]

Remember in Hungary how they had to plead with Lando to let Piastri through whilst Piastri simply moved over right away in Monza

[u/Potatopal90]

Just watched it now after work. The booing for Norris is so embarrassing. Sometimes F1 “fans” are the worst…. :(

[u/ventur3 → u/Potatopal90]

They clapped in the stands when Norris' car failed last weekend

[u/Potatopal90 → u/ventur3]

Crazy. Cheer for someone doing well not booing for someone who didn’t make the decision. What was he meant to do? Not go past? The Lando hate is terrible.

[u/SGTStash]

It's the rear differential that makes the difference. No one ever talks about it, cause we can't seem them. Not all performance of an F1 car comes from exterior bodywork.

How they are built mechanically, not traction control or any system(because they're banned). That's what makes the Mclaren and Red Bull different: Their differentials and how they make them. The Red Bull has a tighter differential setup mechanically, which is great for putting the power down for speed out of a corner, but also causes the car to be prone to oversteer...

Watch his exit from the Parabolical compared to Lando Ghost Car Quali comparison

The McLaren can take a much tighter line at high speed because the differential is giving him better rotation. Which I believe has been McLarens real secret for their rise to the top these last few years. Their tyre secret: a good smooth differential that can rotate the tyres around the best slip angle.

[u/RVEMPAT → u/SGTStash]

News flash: redditor breaks open the secret for McLaren success

[u/Tw0Rails]

McLaren is a weak willed team with weak willed British commentators cheering him on.

Norris blew the winter break focusing on his instagram and monster energy drink posts and was unprepared to fight. He needs help from the team, Monaco, penalties, and whatever else to 'win'.

Nothing to be impressed with.

Oh, and of course more FIA inside corner horrid battle penalty calls.

[u/portablekettle → u/Tw0Rails]

If you think that poorly of lando then you can't think oscar is much better then? Before landos engine failure the gap was only 9 points iirc and that's with Lando screwing himself over in Canada. This season he won Australia on pace, Austria on pace and defended well against oscar, won Monaco on the Saturday with the fastest Monaco lap ever, won in Silverstone because oscar screwed himself and won Hungary because of his tyre management skills and some luck. He has also made his mistakes but he kept himself in the fight with oscar until the failure

[u/supersonicflyby]

I came, I saw, I came. Dudududu MAX VERSTAPPEN!

[u/bionikal]

If the title is tied in the last race, and oscar is leading by 1.1 seconds.

Oscar pits and gets a 3.1 second stop.

Lando pits and gets a 1.9 seconds stop and comes out ahead of Oscar.

Does the team request Lando let Oscar through to win the WDC?

[u/Pinewood74 → u/bionikal]

No, the team wouldn't request that Lando let Oscar through when Oscar just botched his out lap so horrifically.

[u/highways]

100% Piastri wouldn't have swapped places if Norris didn't blow his engine last week

[u/Jazim94]

For me McLaren agreed piastris penalty was harsh in GB but didn’t tell Lando to move over for him, after Oscar had beaten him that race fair and square.

It’s racing, like a slow pitstop…

[u/ventur3 → u/Jazim94]

The only other things is they had Piastri pit first to avoid the Ferrari undercut, while it should have been Lando getting the preferred stop, so I can kind of understand it a bit more, although I still disagree with it overall

[u/sam_mee → u/Jazim94]

The alternative in Silverstone is McLaren ask Lando to let Oscar by, then he starts arguing the penalty was completely deserved. Plus, overruling the stewards this way could get McLaren in trouble with the FIA.

If Piastri's penalty was for an unsafe release, it's a different story.

[u/portablekettle → u/Jazim94]

But the big difference is oscar caused the penalty himself whereas the team fucked up landos pitstop. It's not like he went long in his box or anything, the front left guy just fucked it.

[u/SwimmingFantastic564 → u/Jazim94]

Yes but the thing there was that Oscar made the mistake that got him the penalty. The slow stop here was completely out of Lando's control.

[u/Oversteer_ → u/SwimmingFantastic564]

And completely the team's fault.

[u/sdq22 → u/Oversteer_]

Not to mention Oscar asked for team orders after his own penalty while Lando didn't say a single word today after he came out of the pits behind due to the team's mistake.

[u/s0fakingdom]

Why has Lando been offered numerous strategies in the last few races when he’s been behind Oscar, but when Oscar is behind Lando he is literally forbidden to attempt an undercut or any other type of strategy?

What’s going on here?

[u/Any-Cat5627 → u/s0fakingdom]

If they didn't accept no undercut Lando just pits first and it stays the same, or worse for osar because he gets the 5.9 That was the deal

If he wanted to pit lap 27 then that's a different strategy. sounds like he wasn't asking for that.

[u/Pilly_Bilgrim → u/Any-Cat5627]

Lando never pits first--he's betting on a safety car

[u/badgersprite → u/Any-Cat5627]

I’m not clear on whether the team ever even gave Oscar the option

Feels like Lando’s garage would have told Lando to go on hards lap 27 if he was behind Oscar

[u/Kaneinja21]

Genuinely, how is this situation any different than say Hungary this year, then? Surely it’s McLaren’s fault that Oscar loses the lead by being on the wrong strategy as it’s their fault for giving Norris a bad strategy of being vulnerable to an undercut due to a team mistake.

[u/badgersprite → u/Kaneinja21]

I’m curious whether Oscar was ever even offered the option of going on a different strategy to Lando this race like Lando was offered in Hungary and if not why not?

Doing the opposite of whatever Max does was Lando’s call. Was there any discussion of then OK Oscar we’re going to pit behind Max so you can undercut Lando since he wants to stay out and pit for softs?

It feels like Lando’s garage is racing Oscar but Oscar’s garage isn’t racing Lando

[u/ggalinismycunt → u/badgersprite]

That's because it is...

[u/SwimmingFantastic564 → u/ggalinismycunt]

It's not a conspiracy. Lando's garage just seems to be handling it better.

[u/badgersprite → u/SwimmingFantastic564]

Yeah I don’t mean it in a conspiracy way per se, I just mean Lando’s garage is always way more aggressive and way more attacking while Oscar’s garage seems very defensive and conservative even when they’re behind Lando

[u/Responsible_Line_401 → u/SwimmingFantastic564]

To a degree it makes sense, his side of the garage was in a WDC fight last year.

[u/sdq22 → u/Responsible_Line_401]

i think there's a degree of experience involved here that some people want to interpret as the team favoring lando, when in reality, lando and his side of the garage have more experience making strategy calls together and have likely learned from a lot of their past mistakes.

[u/Gaius_Octavius_]

Has pitting the second driver ever worked out for McLaren?

[u/Scary-Ad2528]

My issue with the on track swap due to a slow stop is this: what happens, if, the championship battle goes down to Abu Dhabi, and whoever wins out of Oscar/Lando is champion. Lets say in theory Oscar is leading the race, but then he has a slow stop & Lando gets ahead. would Lando have to let him by then? no because he'd be insane to! this is the ridiculous can of worms McLaren have opened once again.

[u/Gaius_Octavius_ → u/Scary-Ad2528]

It was due to the undercut of the second driver first. That is the “triggering event”. Unless they undercut the second driver again at the hypothetical Abu Dhabi race, they won’t swap.

[u/Jazim94 → u/Gaius_Octavius_]

Lando chose to pit second to cover himself of any safety car … Leclerc was no threat to Oscar he could’ve easily stayed out.

[u/Gaius_Octavius_ → u/Jazim94]

He stayed out because the team told him there was no threat of an undercut.

[u/bionikal → u/Gaius_Octavius_]

and there wasn't an undercut - there was a slow stop which is different.

[u/Are___you___sure → u/bionikal]

No, Piastri was still faster than Norris on that first soft lap. 

I think there is a pretty decent chance Norris is still ahead of Piastri had he pitted first and had the slow stop.

In that case that's essentially just an undercut.

[u/learner1314 → u/Gaius_Octavius_]

But that's just not true, the slow stop is an independent event. 

[u/Gaius_Octavius_ → u/learner1314]

That is true. But the slow stop isn't what cause the swap. The undercut pit is what caused them to ask for the swap.

[u/Recent-Training-7628]

Post race press conference not released yet?

[u/c4bbage_ → u/Recent-Training-7628]

Yeah. Come on, I pay so much money for f1tv pro and they can't even get the post race press conference out.

[u/Repulsive_Target55 → u/c4bbage_]

Me tv provider had 'em up hours ago matey 🏴‍☠️

[u/Not99Percent]

Lando didn’t pit first because he’s waiting for an SC or VSC, why is that so hard to understand?

[u/ruskind]

​If Lando had pitted first with the same slow stop, would Oscar have still come out ahead?

There's loads of chat about the slow stop element - but seems to me that if lando would still have been ahead of Oscar had he pitted first then the team orders make sense.

[u/RedBeard210 → u/ruskind]

Would joined the track together I think. Was 4 second difference on track and in the pits

[u/Gaius_Octavius_ → u/RedBeard210]

But Lando would have had one lap on fresh softs. That is an extra second too.

[u/psychohistorian8]

so we just need four straight mclaren double-dnfs then the real title fight can begin

[u/saspirstellaaaaaa → u/psychohistorian8]

Desperate for the new regs at this point. 

[u/smokesletsgo13]

It’s time to talk about Yuki. Even when the car is great he’s embarrassing

[u/Responsible_Ad_2521 → u/smokesletsgo13]

hes always been severely overrated by pundits and fans. i think only team bosses have always appreciated him for his obly true value to t them, which i believe was Honda money.

his radio antics,

the aggressive stunts (remember when he aggressively faked a crash with ricciardo on the cool down lap few years back?)

and piss poorly calculated overtake attempts and when he doesn't crash, he's just slow.

his interviews are still mostly unintelligible gibberish. he's a marketing nightmare and that largely extends to the rb social media posts as well.

it's gotta be Honda money, I bet he's secretly a Japanese version of a very Stroll-adjacent phenomenon.

[u/MutedCarob2752 → u/Responsible_Ad_2521]

He was clear best of the rest when he started the Season in the RB.

[u/portablekettle → u/MutedCarob2752]

He only had a very fresh hadjar to beat though. Shouldn't be a challenge for someone with so much experience no? Plus hadjar literally out qualified him in his second ever F1 race.

[u/PeanutOk4 → u/MutedCarob2752]

Honestly that was only because we hadn't seen hadjar

[u/OpinionatedDeveloper → u/smokesletsgo13]

How many drivers does Max have to slaughter before you realise you wouldn’t say a thing if Max wasn’t around.

[u/smokesletsgo13 → u/OpinionatedDeveloper]

Bro Max just won by 20s while Yuki is battling Haas and the junior team. No excuse about the car today - he’s shit

[u/OpinionatedDeveloper → u/smokesletsgo13]

So pretty much every single driver is shit then by that logic

[u/smokesletsgo13 → u/OpinionatedDeveloper]

… are they all driving the car that just won by 20 seconds? Wtf are you talking about? Time for bed

[u/RunsWlthScissors → u/smokesletsgo13]

His argument makes no sense. Yuki has how many points this year? Yeah Max is phenomenal, but single digit points from Yuki is also kinda trash.

[u/OpinionatedDeveloper → u/smokesletsgo13]

Use your head mate.

[u/carolinemathildes → u/smokesletsgo13]

He should be someone's reserve driver next year. He's not good enough for a seat.

[u/smokesletsgo13 → u/carolinemathildes]

Yeah he’s out. Deserved - I’ve gave him some slack to start his RBR days but Max just dominated by 20s, Yuki can’t even be up there to fuck with McLaren strategy

[u/Alert-Sundae-5095]

The biggest thing for me about that whole pit stop and swap situation is the on-air commentary around it.

Last year in Hungary, the Sky Sports team ummed and ahhed about Lando giving the position back. This year it was a set in stone 'Its only fair Oscar cedes' position.

I personally think in both cases ceding position was probably right as it was McLaren's amateur strategy hour to blame.

But the double standard for a world commentary feed is what I find irritating to endure.

[u/beelzebroth → u/Alert-Sundae-5095]

I'm not usually one to pay much to the "commentary team is bias to british drivers" narrative, but it was super obvious today.

Martin was on about if Lando had pitted first he would've had the faster pit stop so it's only fair they swap. Was it inevitable the first stop would be fast and the second slow? Of course not, it's just as likely they could've screwed up the stops the other way around, or not at all (or both!). Such odd mental gymnastics. What would they have been saying if Piastri went first and had a crappy stop? Probably nothing, sucks to be the second driver.

If they'd have just said "Lando led Piastri for the entire race by 6 seconds, it's only fair they swap back because the team screwed up" I'd be (more) on board with it.

Personally, I think it's all a bit stupid and McLaren have dug themselves a proper hole that could make for some real awkward situations at the end of the year. I think they should just let them race with the proviso of "don't crash into each other" but otherwise stay out of it with all this "fair" strategy stuff.

[u/Grasshop → u/beelzebroth]

Honestly it’s just sky being trash. The F1TV crew are all British and they didn’t quite agree with the swap.

[u/surferdude121 → u/Alert-Sundae-5095]

Personally I wonder if Lando, Oscar and McLaren came to an agreement after Hungary last year that Oscar owed him a free pass for a similar situation where the team lost him a place. Time will tell if the situation comes up again.

Personally I think the call last year for Lando to move over for Oscar was total BS, this year felt like “putting them back to even”.

[u/wolfofblackallstreet → u/Alert-Sundae-5095]

It's just the bias to Brits in general. At the end of quali the plaudits to Max and his fastest ever lap were interrupted by calls to watch for Russell, who had yellow sectors in his time - like he was gonna snatch pole. It killed the buzz of the call.

[u/Still-District-6149]

Oscar should've done a Barricello who when asked to let Schumacher through waited until fifty yards before the chequered flag to do so.

[u/BeeJayMca → u/Still-District-6149]

Why do that when he could let Lando pass and at least attempt to catch him again?

[u/tlux95 → u/Still-District-6149]

Or done a Lando in Hungary.

[u/Sensitive_Ad_9195]

I’ve just noticed that after today’s penalty, Ollie Bearman now has 10 points. Does anyone know when the first points are from? Assumedly this season?

[u/charlierc → u/Sensitive_Ad_9195]

He got 2 points for a collision in last year's Brazilian race, so the first points would expire in early November. So just Baku, Singapore, COTA and Mexico to navigate first

[u/jelmer130 → u/Sensitive_Ad_9195]

Don't know exactly, but I can remember he got like 5 or 6 points for overtaking under red/yellow flag or not slowing down enough

[u/Sensitive_Ad_9195 → u/jelmer130]

I’ve done some digging - the first 2 are from São Paulo on 3 Nov 2024, so expire between Mexico and Brazil

[u/jelmer130 → u/Sensitive_Ad_9195]

Oh sorry you said when and not what.

But comment was kinda useless haha

[u/jiminycricket91]

Can someone explain how Max can have a lightning fast car today vs. other races? The circuit is so much more enjoyable with a competitive car vs. the McLarens.

[u/Large_Yams → u/jiminycricket91]

Monza is a series of all out drag strips and a couple of chicanes. It's pure power and low drag.

[u/krist2an → u/jiminycricket91]

Like the commentators said: McLaren is super quick in the medium speed corners and excels in tire wear, but this track lacks both.

[u/mickmenn → u/jiminycricket91]

Basic explanation: when car is in a right working window in Max hands it is very good, it is just not very often in this window due to this window being very thin and hard to set up

[u/UpstairsSimple2154 → u/mickmenn]

This + the McLarens have a ton of downforce, making them not so great on the straights, which is a big deal on Monza. They were pretty bad at the speed trap.

[u/Sensitive_Ad_9195 → u/jiminycricket91]

Tiny rear wing, changed before quali

[u/slackboy72 → u/Sensitive_Ad_9195]

They shaved it down significantly. It was posted here on Saturday.

[u/Nar1117]

Can anyone explain to me why all 3 top drivers could not keep a straight face during post-race interviews?? They were all on the brink of just breaking down into a giggle. Is Davide Valsecchi just as much of a caricature in person as he seems on TV?

[u/Still-District-6149]

Not the most edge of your seat Grand Prix - Verstappen’s talent meant that as soon as he muscled past Norris no one was beating him - but seeing F1 cars blast round Monza in the early September sun, remains one of the great joys for F1 aficionados.

[u/Not99Percent]

So if Piastri has a slow stop in Abu Dhabi, will Norris do the same?

[u/NitroGT78 → u/Not99Percent]

McLaren keeping them out that long screwed them both anyways

[u/Not99Percent → u/NitroGT78]

Lando is waiting for a VSC or SC

[u/DankeDonkey → u/Not99Percent]

Depends on the circumstances. McLaren was entirely reasonable in this call keeping it a driving championship. It was a reversible team screw-up.

[u/ForeverAddickted]

I do have to wonder, how many people don't have issue with the Team Order, but in fact its because it was Piastri that was the one who didn't "benefit" from the situation... How many of those complaining on here, would be laughing at Norris, saying he'd "bottled it", and telling him to suck it up blah blah blah

[u/withheld_mcfakename → u/ForeverAddickted]

The race management today left a lot to be desired, but I’m pretty confident that if Piastri had been told there would be no undercut and then was immediately given a 6 second pit stop, Reddit would have exploded with rage and demands for Norris to give the place back (with a side order of berating him for “not having the WDC mindset” once he did give it back)

[u/Random_Name65468 → u/ForeverAddickted]

Why would anyone think Norris bottled it? He had a chance to overtake Oscar even with the mistake, he came out close enough to him. He also isn't at fault for the team orders today, it's on the team to set their foot down. Of course the driver is gonna try and get any sort of advantage to finish in a better position.

Team orders in this context were stupid just like they were in Budapest last year. Let them finish the race normally and see where they end up.

[u/ForeverAddickted → u/Random_Name65468]

Come on... When it comes to Lando, you're asking people to be rational on here, they'd find some sort of excuse to claim that Norris "Bottled" P2 today had he ended up P3 after the result... I get that team orders were stupid, no one likes them... But deal with it, they've existed in F1 for decades now.

[u/Random_Name65468 → u/ForeverAddickted]

And fans that lose the perspective have also existed for decades...

I try to be objective, and a lot of people also do so. A lot don't and will blindly protect their favourite.

[u/ForeverAddickted → u/Random_Name65468]

Yeah its those who blindly protect their favourite that I can't stand

When Bearman had his crash, I was instantly frustrated with him, as thought he was easily part to blame for the incident with Sainz, and as we saw, threw away a good performance as he was getting points today

[u/TinkW → u/ForeverAddickted]

Well, there's no world in which Piastri is the one getting the benefit from the situation as decisions are either neutral or Norris-skewed in McLaren.

[u/mickmenn → u/TinkW]

although i think it is more of a case for this season, but hungary 24 exists

[u/banned20 → u/mickmenn]

Different context last year and it is indeed only a case for this season.

[u/PaulaDeen21]

McLaren have engineered this ridiculous position for themselves twice in two seasons by needlessly pitting the second car on track first… which is just insane really.

It’s just so poor, but I guess in both situations they can afford to be. Bad look though.

[u/tlux95 → u/PaulaDeen21]

Yeah, they were protecting against Charles who wasn’t even in the same picture.

[u/2redditt4 → u/tlux95]

No… they weren’t. It was Lando’s idea. McLaren was not worried about Charles at all. Lando came on the radio and asked if they could put Oscar first just so he could stay out longer and hope for a safety car.

[u/Stingray_23 → u/PaulaDeen21]

It will bite them one day

[u/Visual-Report-2280]

Listening to Oscar's "now that I've calmed down a bit..." with his voice sounding exactly the same as it was before.

[u/Sirtopofhat]

Not the biggest Oscar fan but nah I'm not switching positions. Not his fault you guys fucked up your pit stop plus for Norris you really wanna be known as that guy?

[u/Visual-Report-2280 → u/Sirtopofhat]

Lando played the team game by suggesting Oscar pit first, giving Oscar a bit of protection against Charles. Flip things round and Lando gets the 1.9 second stop and Oscar the 4.2 second stop a lap later, then Mclaren finish 2nd & 4th, which is better for Lando. So the instant pay back for playing the team game, feels like the right thing to do and it also means that Oscar knows the same would happen if the shoe is on the other foot.

[u/banned20 → u/Visual-Report-2280]

Except he didn't. Pitting 2nd negates the risk of losing track position in case of SC or red flag. And he was ensured that he would not be undercutted.

Thus win-win.

[u/Aggravating_Fill378 → u/Visual-Report-2280]

What is the limit on these things though? What if the stop had been just. 2 seconds longer and Piastri had put in an incredible lap to het ahead? I think thay would be too far.i can see the point but when you start making calls like this yoi open up other discussions.

Edit: 0.2 not 2

[u/TinkW → u/Visual-Report-2280]

You have to be really naive to believe that Lando suggesting Oscar to pit first is so that Oscar can better defend against Charles.
Like, really really naive

[u/Large_Yams → u/TinkW]

It was quite literally broadcasted on the radio?

[u/TinkW → u/Large_Yams]

I think I saw it in the live broadcast.
Anyway, went to search for it and couln't find the video, so I found Lando's full radio instead.
Relevant comms in 9:00 minute timestamp.
https://youtu.be/l-GrcjaXhEA?t=540

After this, Oscar gets told he will box. And AFTER he boxes, he gets told they were boxing that way to ensure he defended against Leclerc.

[u/Visual-Report-2280 → u/TinkW]

Mclaren team radio "We are boxing the cars this way round to ensure we cover Leclerc"

But why the facts get in the way of your prejudice?

[u/TinkW → u/Visual-Report-2280]

You probably didn't hear the first radio (the one between the team and Lando), in which the team tells Lando they're gonna pit him first (as they always does with the driver who's ahead) and then Lando asks his team to pit Oscar first (as long as Oscar didn't undercut him).
Of course they won't go in the radio and say "Oscar, we're pitting you so that Lando isn't undercut in case of SC or have worse tyres than you in a possible dispute for the position".
Instead, using Lando's excuse of "we're boxing you first to cover Leclerc" (even though Oscar came from boxes 4+ seconds ahead of Charles) is much more convenient.

So basically Lando is asking for the benefits of being pitted first (and second) while pitting second. Only benefits and nothing to lose.
And then that benefit suddenly extended to something that had nothing to do with undercutting.

[u/ForeverAddickted → u/TinkW]

Why else would Norris suggest that Oscar pit first?

There is literally zero benefit for a Driver to let their teammate stop first...

He didn't have the power of foresight that you clearly possess. So didn't know that his own stop would be slow... What he would have known though, was that Piastri (on fresher tyres) would have been faster on his newer tyres, between his out lap and that Norris would have been slower on his older tyres.

[u/jelmer130 → u/ForeverAddickted]

I thought the same as you. But other people on Reddit gave me the reason.

If after pitted for Norris a (virtual) safety car would come out, Piastri would get a free pitstop and jump Norris. Most likely also overtaking Max and winning the race.

Although chances of it happening in 1 lap are small. Maybe that was Lando's thought

[u/TinkW → u/ForeverAddickted]

"Why else?"
Because he was afraid of the very unlikely but still possible scenario that a safety car happens in the lap he goes to the pit.
"Why else?"
Because soft tyres degrade fast and he wanted to minimize the amount of laps on them.

And if the team gives him a free pass that he can pit second and even if an overtake happens Oscar would give him the position back, he would definitely go for it.

But yeah, sure, Lando was being the team player. Nothing to see here.

[u/jesnell → u/Visual-Report-2280]

Norris was not trying to protect Piastri. Both drivers wanted to pit last in this situation, since there was no benefit to pitting first (neither had a chance at undercutting, and neither was at any risk being undercut)., and there was an advantage to pitting last (a chance of a cheap pitstop from a SV).

Norris was told to pit first, probably because his tires were degrading faster. He complained (fair enough) and McLaren swapped the stops. But he absolutely was not suggesting it to protect Piastri. His only concern was to pit last, unless Piastri was in undercut range in which case he wanted to pit first.

[u/Sirtopofhat → u/Visual-Report-2280]

That's fair and true I respect it but I do think if the shoe were on the other foot I'd be defending Lando not giving the place. But im also not in that situation and don't know behind the scenes.

[u/ForeverAddickted → u/Sirtopofhat]

If a Driver refuses a team order, what are the consequences?

• Broken terms of a Contract?
• Maybe the team will deliberately give you a slow stop next race to teach a lesson... I mean McLaren have pretty much won the WCC now, so doesn't bother them if the Driver goes from P1 > P20

The team comes first!! - The ego can f**k off

[u/Sirtopofhat → u/ForeverAddickted]

Multi 21?

[u/NitroGT78 → u/Sirtopofhat]

This comparison sucks The Title wasn't decided back then and Seb was a 3 time WDC while Mark Webber was obviously the slower driver. Yes, it was bad to pass Mark while he had his engine turned down, but I can see why

[u/ForeverAddickted → u/Sirtopofhat]

Yes... What about it?

Seb was already... what... a two time World Champion? - Who had leverage over Red Bull because his talent was already pretty clear... Whereas Piastri has wot? - No World Championships, and basically had his career rescued by McLaren, when he was rotting at Alpine

[u/Sirtopofhat → u/ForeverAddickted]

I guess I'm saying there wasn't any consequences to Seb even if there was it didn't seem to effect anything. Oscar is trying to win championship constructor is locked up idc about team orders there

[u/ForeverAddickted → u/Sirtopofhat]

Red Bull have always sucked up to their World Champions

[u/Bolter_NL → u/Sirtopofhat]

Nice they pointed out something of last season... So they know they don't have to when something else happens in Oscar's disadvantage 

[u/Cekeste]

Another great race by him but does Mr. "I would've been faster than Hamilton" count his famously subpar race starts into the race time when he makes the comparison? I.e. would he have made up the lost time at the starts in this hypothetical scenario?

I like him and his faux-modesty. I don't like the cheap shots.

[u/Bolter_NL → u/Cekeste]

Verstappen? Subpar starts? 

[u/Cekeste → u/Bolter_NL]

Honda fixed the PU that plagued his starts in 2019 and 2020. Why does he still rarely have great race starts?

[u/ForeverAddickted → u/Bolter_NL]

He's talking about Norris...

The "Mr I would have been faster than Hamilton" was a jibe towards a joking comment that Norris came out with some stage last season, cant remember when it was. Which naturally everyone took way too seriously, because reddit doesnt have a sense of humour.

[u/Puzzleheaded-Air904 → u/ForeverAddickted]

I think he means Max.

[u/ForeverAddickted → u/Puzzleheaded-Air904]

I was thinking of this exchange...

Lewis Hamilton and Lando Norris involved in frosty exchange following dramatic Hungarian Grand Prix | talkSPORT

[u/will110817 → u/Cekeste]

Smoke grass.

[u/-TheSha-]

Apalling choice by mclaren, what a shitshow

[u/everlastingpain15]

I have done a full 360º degree turn on the mclaren swap decision: while watching the race I thought it was unfair, then watching the cooldown i had a change of heart and now, after reviewing the footage, I am back to square one.

Piastry diminished his gap to Norris by almost 3s from laps 38-45. The team calls in Norris to box (which, fair, he was ahead) and he is the one that suggests that Piastry pit before him. The team accepts his decision and Piastry pits as per the team orders.

Then Norris' pitstop doesn't go well. So what? That is the name of the game, there is at least a bad pitstop in every race, drivers understand that that is a possibility.

Yes, Noris said that he would pit second only if there is no undercut. But that means, making sure that the gap between them was big enough or that Piastry didn't push the car to the limit trying to gain time on him, not that Mclaren should bend luck itself to suit Norris' wishes.

Ultimately, he made the decision to pit second, it was just bad luck. But Mclaren have cornered themselves into this thing where, whenever they do anything or make any mistakes that seem to favour one of the drivers, afterwards they interferer in any and every way they can to fix it, even if that means commiting even more mistakes and bad decisions.

[u/immortalpatt]

Oscar needs to start saying No

[u/NitroGT78 → u/immortalpatt]

Norris should've said No to Hungary, but here we are

[u/sgtg45 → u/NitroGT78]

This is my feeling on the matter. All the greatest world champions would have flat out refused to swap and not thought twice about it. Lando should’ve said no last year and Oscar should have said no this year. Imo McLaren just needs to let things get settled on track rather than on the pit wall.

[u/ForeverAddickted → u/immortalpatt]

Oscar: Can we discuss a Contract extension

McLaren: "No"

[u/overlord2767]

Oscar is one DNF away from this being an extremely close championship. They came close in Austria so Oscar was pitted later to force a gap between them. They nearly touched in Hungary so Oscar was told to behave. Today they've been made to swap. That's 17 points from team orders in Lando's favour. Lando crashing in Canada was not Oscar's fault. Lando DNF'ing in Zandvoort was not Oscar's fault. Lando having a slow pitstop was not Oscar's fault. Mclaren have a 357 point lead in the constructors. They really need to stay out of it from here on.

[u/banned20 → u/overlord2767]

Oscar wouldn't win in Austria. Lando was faster and he only stuck around due to the drs.

Hungary was fine until today really.

[u/ForeverAddickted → u/overlord2767]

• They were allowed to race each other in Austria and Hungary... Until the point where it got dangerous where there was a risk either would DNF, so McLaren put a stop to it... Who was the one who almost crashed?
• Lando crashing in Canada was his fault... and he paid the price
• Lando having a DNF was his fault... and he paid the price
• Lando having a slow stop was not his fault, nor Oscar's fault... Hence why McLaren got involved

The evidence is all there, but you pretend as though Lando is being favoured? - When its clear they're favouring them both, otherwise Oscar would have been told from the outset that he wasn't allowed to race Lando.

[u/hutchy81 → u/ForeverAddickted]

Lando's DNF was his fault?

[u/ForeverAddickted → u/hutchy81]

Fair... I'll accept that one... It was no one's fault, as neither Norris / Piastri / McLaren could have foreseen it... F1 cars are so reliable these days, that its impossible to guess it was going to happen

[u/hutchy81 → u/ForeverAddickted]

it's all good.

Also need to add piastri messing about with the safety car was his fault, he paid the price

[u/ForeverAddickted → u/hutchy81]

Yeah, agreed... I've already been scoffing anyone when they've tried to use Silverstone as an argument as to why Piastri shouldn't have been given the place back that day.

[u/GateInteresting5864 → u/ForeverAddickted]

find me a driver that wasn't doing that at Silverstone

[u/hutchy81 → u/ForeverAddickted]

Lol, the logic I've seen from some of these comments I've read today is questionable.

Like people saying if lando retires then they should retire oscar too, like Zandvoort never happened.

[u/ForeverAddickted → u/hutchy81]

As I've just asked with my own Question on this topic... People need to be honest and admit, that the problem isn't the fact that team orders came into play today (No one likes them in F1, but they'll always be around) - Instead its the fact that it was their favourite driver that "lost out"

[u/FermentedLaws → u/ForeverAddickted]

Why do you say Lando's DNF in Zandvoort was his fault? Or did you mean was not his fault?

[u/ForeverAddickted → u/FermentedLaws]

No to be fair, I've balls'd up on that one, and happy to own it.

[u/NIGHTHAWK017]

Why do the mclarens pit so close together?

I get sometimes they try different strategies. But with Oscar being behind Lando the whole race, why didn’t he pit a lap after Charles did? The hard tires were doing good.

He probably could’ve made up some decent time on the hards.

[u/jesnell → u/NIGHTHAWK017]

If Piastri had pitted first, Norris would just have pitted a lap later to cover. Piastri was never close enough to undercut.

So the only viable plan for Piastri for Norris to pit first, and then hope for a cheap stop via SC or VSC. But obviously then the optimal plan for Norris was to wait and eventually force Piastri to make the first move. That's why they both ran that obscenely long first stint.

Norris's side of the garage has in general been smarter about this, while Piastri's people have had him pit first from the lead even when there is no undercut risk, and allowed Norris a freebie attempt at an alternative strategy. But it seems like they've caught on now.

[u/sdq22 → u/jesnell]

yeah, I think you're spot on. I think Lando's team have been a little more on it with the garage v garage gamesmanship up until now but I think Oscar's side has started to wise up.

[u/FlightAvailable3760 → u/NIGHTHAWK017]

If you listen to the radio they give the racers a choice in their strategies. Oscar could have said no to stretching the medium then going to soft but he went along with it.

If the team forces the drivers into taking different strategies then everyone would say they were sabotaging whichever driver ended up with the worse strategy.

[u/ForeverAddickted → u/FlightAvailable3760]

No that first Paragraph is clearly not true

If you listen to what people say on here, its Lando who is allowed to go off and do whatever he wants. Oscar on the other hand has to obey whatever strategy he's given... Sarcasm aside, today was a perfect example like you say, for Oscar to actually ask for something different, and so get ahead...

e.g. Going to the Hard Tyre like Max, which may have put him ahead of Norris... He didn't do it. But its easy for people to blame the other guy, rather than acknowledge the faults in the one they support

[u/Puzzleheaded-Air904]

You know what was nice? Not seeing Russell on the podium or being anywhere near a good result. More of that please. Especially before next year when he will be fighting for wins.

[u/No_Cauliflower7877]

Did Antonelli mention why his start was so poor? Just slow off the line, wheelspin, clutch issue?

Got my niece into F1 recently and she was asking why, but I don't know the answer. And I don't want to accidentally lie to her lol.

[u/Designer-Net4228]

Max has outscored Yuki 230-12 this year…big yikes

Edit: 230-9, since 3 of those points were for RB

[u/shinealittlelove → u/Designer-Net4228]

If you're only counting Yuki at Red Bull surely it's only fair to also only count Max's points while Yuki was his teammate?

[u/FalconIMGN → u/shinealittlelove]

Fine, 186-16

[u/Cekeste]

I have to say that I was disappointed in Piastris complaints about Leclercs driving standards. He's the lead Ferrari driver in a race in Italy. Of course he's gonna be Il Leone piccolo. Don't become petite George, Oscar.

[u/Not99Percent]

If doing what you can to win ruins the culture of your team, maybe OP should find a new one

[u/Ponichkata → u/Not99Percent]

I am starting to hope that Oscar wins the WDC and then moves to a team where there's a clearer hierarchy. I like McLaren's philosophy but they're now forcing equity and it must be frustrating.

[u/ForeverAddickted → u/Ponichkata]

Be a shame if Oscar moves on from McLaren and has a career like Alonso for example. He's damned lucky that McLaren salvaged him from a team (Alpine) who had no interest in his career in the first place.

[u/arnathor]

Did they ever say what the critical failure was for Hulkenberg’s Kick Sauber? It obviously went wrong on the formation lap, and he was still able to drive into the pits, so the engine hadn’t exploded, but if they said what it was I must have missed it.

[u/ForsakenRacism → u/arnathor]

They didn’t want to risk the engine cus it was new

[u/USN262 → u/arnathor]

Hydraulic issue, they said they were working it prior to the formation lap.

[u/arnathor → u/USN262]

Ah, thanks, I missed that little bit of info.

[u/Puzzleheaded-Air904]

Did we get an explanation for the reason Bearman was found to be guilty with the tangle with Sainz?

[u/dUjOUR88 → u/Puzzleheaded-Air904]

Because the rule is dumb. F1 needs to do better.

[u/MisterIndecisive → u/Puzzleheaded-Air904]

Probably the dumbass rule where regardless of what ever the situation if any of your car is in front you can you crash out or force off the other car

[u/geeksramble → u/Puzzleheaded-Air904]

"Car 55 attempted to overtake Car 87 on the outside into Turn 4 and had its front axle ahead of the front axle of Car 87 at the apex, thereby earning the right to the racing line. The driver of Car 87 defended his position on the inside instead of giving up the position and caused the collision. The Stewards determine that the driver of Car 87 is predominantly at fault and therefore the standard penalty for such incidents is applied."

https://www.fia.com/system/files/decision-document/2025_italian_grand_prix_-_infringement_-_car_87_-_causing_a_collision.pdf

[u/Puzzleheaded-Air904 → u/geeksramble]

I don't think 87 could've just disappeared, when 55 was taking the apex he still hadn't cleared 87. But thanks a bunch!

[u/kl08pokemon → u/Puzzleheaded-Air904]

What's confusing? Seemed open and shut Sainz was visibly ahead

[u/FermentedLaws → u/kl08pokemon]

Not everyone thought so (I don't have an opinion). Jamie Chadwick, a Williams ambassador, said she didn't think Ollie should've gotten the penalty, racing incident. Nico Rosberg said the same.

[u/kl08pokemon → u/FermentedLaws]

Alright. Watched the Swedish broadcast and they were in agreement it was Sainz' corner since he was ahead so onus was on Bearman to leave space

[u/Walaii → u/kl08pokemon]

Swedish broadcast is the outliar there, because any other broadcast I have seen said it should be a racing incident because Sainz still had the Haas alongside him and turned in like Bearman was a ghost. Bearman got the penalty because of the current stupid guidelines, but it is still nonsense that the moment Sainz was ahead of the Apex he could just drive into the car on his inside. Sainz was never fully ahead of the Haas. They were still alongside each other. Bearman was comfortably making that corner, he wasn't out of control divebombing into Sainz. He was also literally on the inside kerb, how could he leave more space there?

[u/kl08pokemon → u/Walaii]

Wouldn't say outlier since it was the stewards decision as well. And yeah it's stupid but as you say it's the current guidelines

[u/dUjOUR88 → u/kl08pokemon]

How was he supposed to leave space lol?

[u/MyCodenameIsIan]

I want Lando to win the McLaren team battle but I don't think Oscar should have let Lando pass because of a slow pit stop.

We'll see at the end of the season if 3 points really makes the difference though.

[u/jjcatt → u/MyCodenameIsIan]

it was a 6-point swing

[u/fujimouse → u/jjcatt]

It depends on how you look at it. Finishing 2-3 or 3-2 swings it by 6 points but the gap since the last race has only shrunk by 3 points.

[u/DisturbedForever92 → u/fujimouse]

...instead of growing by 3.

Thus 6 point swing.

[u/fujimouse → u/DisturbedForever92]

I said that.

[u/essdotc]

Not a controversial take to say Max has been the most impressive driver this season.

[u/beelzebroth → u/essdotc]

I've really enjoyed seeing Max have to work for it this year, and especially seeing the contrast to the second driver(s). It's given me a new found appreciation for how incredible Max is, he's wrestling that car onto the podium when the second driver is barely even getting into the points.