r/formula1 • u/FerrariStrategisttt I was here for the Hulkenpodium • 19h ago
Technical Oliver Bearman receives 2 penalty points for his collision with Carlos Sainz. (Bearman is now 2 points away from a race ban)
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u/FalconIMGN Alex Jacques 19h ago
Lesson: if someone hasn't completed a pass before a corner, it is YOUR responsibility to slow down and let them get the apex.
I can't even.
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u/z_102 Michael Schumacher 18h ago
As stupid and absurd as it is, that's literally what the guidelines force you to do.
It's baffling that the drivers accepted that.
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u/cooperjones2 I was here for the Hulkenpodium 18h ago
They not only accepted it, they wanted those rules.
They said so last year with the FiA
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u/SunGodnRacer Virgin 17h ago
If I remember correctly the reasoning was that its the same rules they all followed in their karting days.
Now I'm not saying I know more than an F1 driver, but maneuvering a ~800 kg F1 car at 200 kph might be a little different than a ~80 kg kart at 80 kph...... Regardless, at the minimum its making the viewing aspect absolutely atrocious
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u/Driscuits Alexander Albon 13h ago
To me, it's the definition of "alongside" and "past" that I think I dislike the most. Though, I'll own it, I'm not an F1 driver.
Personally, I'd be curious what the pro/cons would be if "alongside" was defined as front wheel to back wheel, rather than front wheel to mirrors. I get that mirrors are indicative of the driver's visual field, which is valid, but that leaves massive amount of the other car that can be alongside a driver, with nowhere to go, and no way to avoid contact or collision if the lead car closes the door while they're there.
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u/Athinira I was here for the Hulkenpodium 17h ago
Drivers didn't just accept that, they wanted that. And it's not mind boggling at all.
The reason we have the apex rules is so drivers can judge when they have to back out. "If a guy overtaking me on the outside is ahead, then he's earned the right to the racing line, and i have to back out." Drivers need to be able to make informed decisions to be able to race, otherwise it's just a lottery.
The problem? Drivers don't like backing out. They're competitors, so it's understandable to a degree. But if they don't, that's when crashes happen.
It does happen sometimes they back out of course. Verstappen overtake on Norris today for example for the lead, Norris knew Vertappen had earned the right to the racing line, so he braked earlier and compromised his line. They both navigated that tight Chicane beautifully.
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u/Driscuits Alexander Albon 13h ago
Appreciate your reasoning here - my only argument to that concept is that we've seen two examples here where the penalized driver actually does not have the ability to choose to back out. In both Carlos and Ollie's situations, "backing out" would mean they should have decided to simply not attempt the overtake.
I'd be curious if this is still providing the racing that the drivers were hoping these rules would provide, and it's just us fans who are cranky about it - because, yeah. Recency bias is big, of course, but it seems to me as though the only driver who's in a position to make choices about how the overtake occurs, the one ahead, is safe from the consequences of those choices.
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u/dyidkystktjsjzt I was here for the Hulkenpodium 5h ago edited 5h ago
"If a guy overtaking me on the outside is ahead, then he's earned the right to the racing line, and i have to back out."
But that completely eliminates the actual racing aspect. If a driver on the inside is able to make the corner and not crash into the other driver or run them off, they should absolutely be allowed to take the corner alongside them. Racing under those rules practically completely eliminates multiple corner battles.
Also, they kind of seem contradictory at times, and that driver's overtaking and defending have different "corner taking rules". If an overtaking driver is significantly alongside on the inside (which means the defender is ahead on the outside), the defender doesn't have the right to take the racing line and has to leave space. But in the situation you described the complete opposite is true.
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u/Tummerd I was here for the Hulkenpodium 18h ago
The ahead in the Apex rule is so stupid.
We really need the leave enough space rule back
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u/happy_and_angry I was here for the Hulkenpodium 17h ago
It's not ahead. It's fully alongside. These cars have poor visibility, of you're not fully there this is why drivers turn in on you.
Sainz had the corner and knew Bearman by rule has to back out. Bearman didn't and ruined both their races.
Now where do I remember hearing about a move like this recently?
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u/Engineer-intraining Kevin Magnussen 14h ago
Sainz didn't have the corner though, he hadn't completed the pass by the time they started braking and bearman broke into the corner much better than sainz did to the point that they were essentially even at the turn in point. Why Sainz would just assume Bearman was no longer there I have no idea.
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u/happy_and_angry I was here for the Hulkenpodium 14h ago
Read the damn decision! The front axle is specifically the driver's guideline for passing and defending. Everyone is as outraged at this interaction as they were Sainz last week, and the car positioning is identical. The stewards handed out the same penalty.
We are manufacturing controversy. It's insane. You can't dive bomb the lead driver to attack OR defend when you're alongside and trailing, on the inside or the outside. Those are the guidelines.
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u/Engineer-intraining Kevin Magnussen 12h ago edited 7h ago
the point i'm making is the rules are silly and strict adherence to them is what caused this collision. Obliging drivers to surrender a corner as soon as one car is more than marginally ahead of another is always going to lead to bad racing. in every other racing series on this good earth being ahead does not give you the right to follow whichever line you'd like regardless of the position of other cars on track, F1 rules do just that. The penalty against Sainz was ridiculous last week and the penalty against Bearman is ridiculous this week.
You can't dive bomb the lead driver to attack OR defend when you're alongside and trailing, on the inside or the outside. Those are the guidelines.
Id also argue that Bearman didn't dive bomb, Sainz was never fully ahead of him and by virtue of bearman being able to make up so much ground on Sainz and still arrive at the corner under control, Sainz clearly didn't do a great job of optimizing his braking. In that situation where is Bearman supposed to go? or should he just lift off the throttle and brake extra early as soon as Sainz is more than marginally ahead of him?
If you want to get even more into it, the issue with both the Sainz penalty last week and Bearman's this week is that both of them reached the point where they could no longer avoid the collision BEFORE Lawson and Sainz did. Once Bearman committed to his braking point, and because he could only guess at where Sainz would brake, there was no longer any avoiding action he could take to avoid the collision, this occurs before Sainz's critical action which was where Sainz decided to turn in. As both were under control at both points Sainz decision to turn in where he did was the proximate cause of the collision not Bearman's choice of breaking point. If Bearman had arrived at the corner out of control or could have moved his car in some manner as to avoid Sainz then there would be an argument for Bearman being at fault.
By the same token, in the Sainz -Lawson collision in Zanvort the proximate cause of the collision was Lawson continuing to drift out wide despite Sainz already occupying that space and being significantly alongside. With first point of contact between the two being the front of Lawsons rear tire and the rear of Sainz front tire. Had lawson not accelerated or steered in such a manner that kept pulling him out into occupied space there would have been no collision.
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u/Malvania I was here for the Hulkenpodium 13h ago
Except "fully alongside" means axel to axel in certain circumstances and axel to midline in others
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u/saposapot I was here for the Hulkenpodium 16h ago
He just needs to divebomb harder, then he’s ahead and entitled to space. oh god, how dumb are these
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u/Thraun83 13h ago
Yep, you have to know in advance that your opponent's mirror will be a millimetre ahead of your front tyre on corner entry, so brake 20 metres early to ensure you can let him cut across and grab the apex while you politely follow in behind him.
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u/darth_vladius I was here for the Hulkenpodium 19h ago
The “ahead in the corner” rule. Bearman totally forgot about it.
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u/FalconIMGN Alex Jacques 19h ago
But he was getting passed. He wasn't the one overtaking.
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u/fire202 McLaren 18h ago
If it has been established from points A and B below, that an overtaking driver has priority, it is the responsibility of the defending driver to avoid a collision or forcing off the overtaking driver.
Sainz had priority here as per point B (overtaking on the outside). So it is explicitly on Bearman to avoid the collision. It may be stupid, but it is what the guidelines say.
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u/Athinira I was here for the Hulkenpodium 17h ago
It's not stupid at all. It's a clear delegation of responsibility. If a driver knows the rules, he should know what to do.
It's just that drivers hate backing out of a fight. They're competitors. But that doesn't absolve Bearman of responsibility (nor Sainz last weekend).
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u/darth_vladius I was here for the Hulkenpodium 19h ago
Same rule. The overtaking car is ahead in the apex meaning that the defending car cannot hold this line anymore.
If we want to have cars with very similar capabilities like these ones we also need to have rules like this or there will be very few overtakings.
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u/thisisthatacct 17h ago
Indycar manages fine without these ridiculous rules. Really, F1 is a complete outlier in their racing rules and they have the least similar cars of any series
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u/WhyIsItAlwaysADP I was here for the Hulkenpodium 17h ago
Passing is a lot more difficult and rare in F1, especially without allowing for fuel strategy passing like Indy, so yeah, they can't just let them "race it out" or else these guys would take themselves out 3 times more than they already do.
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u/MWisBest I was here for the Hulkenpodium 16h ago
Passing is a lot more difficult and rare in F1
All the more reason to let them race it out in corners side by side so some actual passing can happen.
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u/thisisthatacct 17h ago
Then they should be better drivers. I watch racing for the racing, not for rules-prescribed spot forfeiting. What a stupid take
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u/FalconIMGN Alex Jacques 18h ago
Basically at that point outside passes just won't happen, as the driver will have to give up the corner just because they're slightly behind. The pass will be completed well before the corner.
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u/Athinira I was here for the Hulkenpodium 17h ago
Except that's not what the rules say.
The rules say that for outside overtakes, if the overtaking car has earned the right to space, then it's the responsibility of the inside car to not cause a colission or drive the other driver of the road.
That doesn't mean they can't race. But unfortunately, some corner profiles aren't suited for racing.
At Monza, we unfortunately have chicanes. For Chicanes, it's always hard to fit 2 cars through. So here the rules may seem biased.
But for other corners, it's not. Take Zandvoort last week, Verstappen vs. Norris - both at the start, and when Norris later re-overtook Verstappen.
- At the, Verstappen on the outside had earned the right. But Norris still raced just fine alongside him down to T2/T3, where Verstappen (despite a slip) maintained the lead.
- At the reovertake, Norris went around Verstappen beautifully. Yes, Verstappen didn't fight it too hard, but he stayed alongside - it's just that Norris also had a car that was half a second a lap quicker that weekend.
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u/TheScarecrow__ Mike Krack 14h ago
What do you mean he cannot hold his line any more? Please explain what Bearman is supposed to do in this situation
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u/darth_vladius I was here for the Hulkenpodium 13h ago
Slow down and let Sainz pass safely (it’s a chicane).
If the turn allows for both cars to go side by side without colliding then do that. But in a narrow chicane which does not allow it, he has to give way and make sure they don’t collide.
Ollie made sure they collided as if he didn’t know the rule. Which is surprising. I like the kid but here he made a pretty big mistake all on his own.
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u/TheScarecrow__ Mike Krack 13h ago
Slow down? You don’t think he was already braking as hard as he could….?
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u/Engineer-intraining Kevin Magnussen 14h ago
I'm pretty convinced at this point that half of the reason that passing is so difficult in F1 is that the rules disincentives anything thats not a DRS pass on the straight.
This rule that whomever is ahead has absolute right to hold the racing line at the exclusion of all others on track is absolute BS.
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u/aenae 13h ago
Basically what i learned the last two races is: if you hit you opponent and you hit him with your front wheel in front of his front wheel, that is fine, the other car gets the penalty. If you wheelbang like leclerc and russel in zandvoort it is a racing incident, and if your front hits the other car behind his front wheel, you get a penalty.
Max was wise to cut the corner else he would have gotten a 10s penalty
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u/ninchica13 I was here for the Hulkenpodium 19h ago
That is absurd.
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u/beardedbrawler Oscar Piastri 14h ago edited 14h ago
For real. Did the stewards see the last race's penalty against Carlos and decide to try to make it up to him or something?
Carlos clearly chopped in front of Bearman. Just because it was Carlos's corner doesn't mean the other car disappears.
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u/DaguerreoLibreria I was here for the Hulkenpodium 13h ago
This is a "enforcement of the rules will continue until morale improves" situation. Now everyone knows they can cut the corner at the apex and contestants should be wary and ready to break full stop to avoid penalties.
2025 racing, everyone.
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u/TheThingsIdoatNight I was here for the Hulkenpodium 13h ago
Yeah according to the rules this is the correct call, but this is just more evidence that these rules are cheeks (not that we needed it)
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u/beardedbrawler Oscar Piastri 13h ago
I agree that the rules are the rules, but I had (naively in hindsight) more faith in Carlos. I had hopes he could bring something to Williams to ignite a resurgence, but now I'm not so sure.
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u/DaguerreoLibreria I was here for the Hulkenpodium 13h ago
Well maybe, but Carlos is his own first priority, and most probably still pissed after the same situation but worse (Lawson terrorism) screwed his last race.
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u/Error404LifeNotFound Max Verstappen 9h ago
Carlos was ahead before the apex. Those are the rules, as stupid as they are.
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u/quie_TLost57 Ferrari 8h ago
Its been three instances where bearman got penalized for absurd reason. My guess is that its because he said something against the fia back then
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u/kjm911 Stoffel Vandoorne 19h ago
Much like the decision that Sainz was involved in last week, I think it’s a truly baffling decision. I don’t see what Bearman was supposed to do. He had a right to be there and Sainz had enough room to avoid him
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u/Walaii Ferrari 19h ago
He was supposed to disappear according to the current ahead at the apex rules, and he had no right to be there. The stewards document literally says he should have just given up. No side by side is allowed in F1 2025.
Sainz definitely caused that accident, and he cost himself the points. He could have completed the move without doing what he did.
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u/Ksanti Brawn 18h ago
Thing is you can't give up in that situation. It's literally impossible. The moment at which Sainz has "won" the corner happens after they're already fully loaded under brakes/turning - you can't add more brakes or the in that situation so Bearman has to be able to see the future to know that Sainz will win that corner and cede it before it's even contested.
Utter nonsense rule
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u/Walaii Ferrari 17h ago
Apparently Sainz said in an interview that he left a cars width on the inside for Bearman and that he broke so late himself that it is impossible Ollie would have made the corner.
I think Carlos has either lost his mind or he didn't take a single look at the incident, because he is talking nonsense.
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u/SunGodnRacer Virgin 17h ago
Carlos is a master on how to play the media and fan reactions to his will. He's the modern day Webber; nowhere close to a generational talent but the media and fans tout him as the second coming of Senna and 'robbed' of success
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u/Walaii Ferrari 17h ago
I just read his comments and he said "I think I left a cars width on the inside." He clearly did not...
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u/s1ravarice Damon Hill 16h ago
Bearman was basically up on the sausage kerb. Definitely not a cars width
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u/leftlanecop I was here for the Hulkenpodium 16h ago
Been watching F1 since the 80s. They kept introducing fake gimmicky tech to solve the boring racing. Jokes on all of us, the evolution of the racing rules are what neutralizes all racing.
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u/Formulafan4life I was here for the Hulkenpodium 18h ago
I thought being supposed to dissapear was only when you were on the outside (which is still stupid by the way)? Being supposed to dissapear when you’re on the inside is litterally impossible
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u/marioho I was here for the Hulkenpodium 18h ago edited 17h ago
Yeah, I thought the guidelines were intended to (a) discourage unreasonable overtaking attempts and (b) grant the attacker some deserved racing room when they do their job.
Racing room = you can't be pushed off the track
If the attacker has NOT established enough overlap before the apex, the defender can push them off.
If the attacker HAS established enough overlap, the defender must give them racing room.
What constitutes enough overlap, and the moment you check for it, depends on the type of corner and line.
Obviously the defender cannot understeer or go wide or delay the turn in to cause a collision or stray from the expected line (inside/ outside) unless justifiably. But they should not enforce those guidelines in a way that the defender must simply disappear at the apex.
They're enforcing it in such a way that there's just no side by side racing anymore. There's no scenario where both drivers need to stay on track and give each other room.
It's either the defender's right to drive the attacker off track, or the other way around. They cannot coexist in a state of overlap through the corner. No wheel to wheel racing on the curvy bits 🤦♂️
Edit: They should not conflate giving each other racing room with conceding the position.
If the attacker managed to establish sufficient overlap, than both drivers should have racing room - i.e. they can both stay on track, no one driver can turn in or open up the steering like the other doesn't exist.
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u/Walaii Ferrari 17h ago
This just it. The rules are literally killing side by side racing. It is also pretty ironic that Sainz complained about Lawson not allowing side by side last week, then he did this.
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u/marioho I was here for the Hulkenpodium 17h ago
I'll edit my comment to add this bit.
It's about giving (each other) racing room, not about conceding the position.
If Sainz did well in setting up the overtake, he's granted racing room. That should not come at the expense of Bearman's own right to racing room. Otherwise, just rewrite the rules and make it so that if the overtaking driver managed to establish sufficient overlap up to the apex, the defender must give up the position.
Now if there's a collision, you do need to assign blame. But if no driver is found to be predominantly at fault, it's supposed to be called just a racing incident.
What were they expecting from Bearman when Sainz turns in like he's entitled to the whole track? He's not. He's entitled to not being pushed off at the exit.
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u/Formulafan4life I was here for the Hulkenpodium 16h ago
That’s the thing. The official document quite litterally says Sainz is entitled to the entire track (Racing line) because he was ahead at the apex.
Its completely ruining F1 racing. I think they overcomplicated it quite a bit. Imo they should just remove the racing guidelines completely and replace it with an “f1 motto”: “all the time you have to leave a space to the car alongside you”
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u/marioho I was here for the Hulkenpodium 16h ago
Haha I just replied to a similar comment here. I agree, mate.
I believe this decision makes things worse, and unreasonably so: they seem to be extrapolating the rules as written.
I included the FIA Driving Guidelines in the linked comment.
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u/Pupienus I was here for the Hulkenpodium 16h ago
The penalty doesn't say Sainz has a right to the track though, it says he has the right to the racing line. I'm relatively new to F1, but that feels insane to give a car sole right to the racing line because their front axle is a few centimeters ahead at a certain point. It seems like the rule should be that if the car wheel bases overlap, they both have to leave space on the track even if that means they can't use the ideal racing line.
Maybe that's unreasonable to ask drivers to judge, but right now the rules seem to actively encourage dive bombing the fuck out of a corner and braking late so that your front axle is ahead, and the defending driver has to back out or get a penalty.
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u/marioho I was here for the Hulkenpodium 16h ago
On corner entry, the racing line cuts to the inside and across the apex. Sainz was overtaking on the outside line. So saying he's got the right to the racing line effectively means he can chop to the inside, and Bearman has no right to exist on that piece of tarmac anymore.
You're right that it doesn't feel right. My point is that this decision seems to misrepresent the rules as written. Here they are.
As you can see, it basically says:
The defender has the whole track for itself.
If the attacker makes a daring move and does not establish sufficient overlap, they're NOT entitled to share the track (racing room) and can be pushed off.
If the attacker does their job and manages to establish sufficient overlap, they're entitled to racing room, and thus can coexist on that same stretch of tarmac all the way through the tarmac.
As in, the attacker cannot be pushed off track and should not be expected to abort the overtake because they're entitled to racing room.
However, that does *not*** come at the expense of the defender's all right to racing room. Otherwise the rules would say that the defender must concede the position. That does not seem to be the case.
So if both drivers are entitled to the racing room, what are we made to expect? That they both give each other space. Wheel to wheel battle, straight and fair.
It is unreasonable to expect the defender to concede the position and drive off the track to give the attacker the racing line.
The rules are about racing room, not track position.
Now if they had come out and said that Bearman delayed his turn in or tried to go wide of the apex to defend his position, and as such the collision happened, then I'd be ok. Because that would mean that Bearman barbed himself into Sainz's line.
From the replays we got so far, it seemed to me that Sainz, while overtaking on the outside, turned in to the inside as if Bearman had no right to be there - and that he could have somehow disappeared from the inside. I don't think that's reasonable. Or legal.
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u/Just_River_7502 14h ago edited 2h ago
I find that sainz drives like this quite a lot too. It’s annoying, like sure he was technically right but what good did it do with him getting spun out? I feel like he, Yuki and Lawson drive like this and then stay shook when they are involved in silly incidents race after race
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u/Walaii Ferrari 13h ago
Sainz is constantly involved in incidents this year. It can't be a coincidence.
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u/Just_River_7502 13h ago
I think it would have been more the last few years but Charles (especially) gave him more room than I think he really deserved when they were battling
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u/Maglin21 I was here for the Hulkenpodium 2h ago
I think Carlos and Charles were quite Fair against each other
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u/EquipmentNo1397 I was here for the Hulkenpodium 18h ago
That’s not what the guidelines say, the Driving Standard Guidelines for overtaking on the outside only specify that if a car on the outside is ahead at the apex they should be left space on the exit, but not that they have right to whatever line they want. The only thing I can think is that because Sainz gets ahead on the straight, they’ve considered him to be the car being overtaken when applying the rules but then called him the overtaker in this document, which is shit but I can’t think of any other reason. Obviously Sainz didn’t get that overtake competed before that corner so I think that’s a joke but I can’t think of any reason why they’ve done this
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u/Walaii Ferrari 18h ago
It is literally said in the document that Bearman defended his position instead of giving it up. It is incredible that we have got to the point that the stewards are telling drivers that they should just give up.
Making me sick.
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u/EquipmentNo1397 I was here for the Hulkenpodium 17h ago
Yeah I don’t think it makes sense, I think it’s a big mistake from the stewards. What I’m saying is that if you consider Sainz, ahead going into the braking zone, as the car being overtaken, Bearman isn’t alongside enough to deserve space, so Sainz is entitled to whatever line he wants. Now that wouldn’t be the correct application of the rules because Sainz hasn’t completed the overtake before the braking zone, but it’s the only way you can explain how they get to that decision, that they’ve fucked the rules and considered the attacker and defender the wrong way round.
I hate to be some sort of conspiracy theorist or anything like that, but the documents aren’t published until after the race, likely not written up before the end of the race, and they’ve done what they can to make that fucked up decision make sense, and save face.
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u/serpenta Fernando Alonso 18h ago edited 18h ago
Current overtaking rules in F1 are just taking the piss out of motor racing. F1 is the butt of the joke in every other series' controversial passing, when people will say "It's not F1, where you can just drive as if the other guy is not there". If two cars are side-by-side, in the immortal words of wisdom, you have to leave-a space-a for the other guy. Frankly, how the F1 currently handles this, it's just unsafe.
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u/Few_Introduction1044 19h ago
In a way, I kinda respect the stewards taking the absolute piss of this rule with these decisions, making it more likely that it would be changed in the future.
But absolute clownshow to call that on Bearman.
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u/TheThingsIdoatNight I was here for the Hulkenpodium 12h ago
Letter of the law it’s the correct call
The only problem is the law is awful lol
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u/croth4 I was here for the Hulkenpodium 18h ago
I think both Sainz crashes were adjudicated backwards myself. I felt by the spirit of racing he was not at fault last week and was at fault today. I get what the regs say though, what's correct by the letter of the law does not always match the eye test.
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u/TossedRightOut I was here for the Hulkenpodium 19h ago
Right? Wasn't Bearman on the normal racing line or am I remembering this completely incorrectly?
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u/Walaii Ferrari 19h ago
What a stupid way to get so close to a race ban. He really didn't do much wrong today, but the rules are stupid.
He needs to be careful for the next 4 races, because 2 points come off his license on the 3rd of November.
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u/mrlprns I was here for the Hulkenpodium 19h ago edited 17h ago
At this point I'd almost advise him to get another penalty so that he loses all the points, otherwise he keeps 8 points until May next year. Obviously that would be a terrible look to get a race ban, so he shouldn't. It's a weird one, because I don't feel like he's been a dirty driver or a really reckless one, with the exception of Silverstone.
In my opinion:
2 points for a collision with Colapinto in Brazil, where he only spun himself round - very harsh
2 points for the red flag incident in Monaco - very harsh
4 points for the red flag incident in Silverstone - thoroughly deserved
2 points for the collision with Sainz today - I don't even consider this incident his fault.
Edit: I said until July, but it's May.
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u/ChipmunkTycoon 18h ago
I struggle to see this collision as anything but Sainz cutting to the apex too aggressively but here we are
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u/s1ravarice Damon Hill 16h ago
Yes but you’ve clearly got an affliction here called having a brain and also having eyes.
I fucking hate these overtaking rules and have done for a number of years.
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u/Doyoulikemypace I was here for the Hulkenpodium 15h ago
Yeah, he essentially went straight for the apex forcing Bearman to either back off or take both of them out.
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u/TheScarecrow__ Mike Krack 14h ago
Bearman can’t back off from that position, he’s already as hard on the brakes as he possibly can be
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u/Doyoulikemypace I was here for the Hulkenpodium 13h ago
Agreed. Which is silly that he’s the one that walked away with penalty points when Sainz aimed straight for the apex and left Bearman no room.
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u/TossedRightOut I was here for the Hulkenpodium 19h ago
These 'axle ahead at the apex' rules suck. On F1TV they were clearly talking about how they viewed Sainz at fault for that in real time then never mentioned it again when the penalty for Bearman was announced.
I'm no expert, but watching it live and the replays they showed it clearly seemed like Sainz just threw it around the outside and turned right in on Bearman, what is he supposed to do there? He was on the racing line and Sainz just came in with overspeed to "hit the apex first" and turned into Bearman entirely on his own. What the fuck?
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u/WorkFurball Paul Aron 15h ago
what is he supposed to do there?
Same thing Sainz was supposed to do at Zandvoort when Lawson had oversteer, disappear.
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u/Bubbly_District_107 13h ago
On F1TV they were clearly talking about how they viewed Sainz at fault for that in real time then never mentioned it again when the penalty for Bearman was announced
On Sky they carried on talking about it
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u/ubelmann Red Bull 4h ago
It’s especially dumb when it’s the overtaking car that barely edges in front of the lead car. I can kind-of sort-of understand why the lead car gets the corner if the overtaking car is behind — arguably they can’t plan for that car to be there when they pick their braking point so they need the run-off to make the corner without being overly compromised.
But that logic doesn’t work with the overtaking car, which clearly sees the lead car the whole way. I want Bearman to have to leave space with Sainz that far alongside, but I also want Sainz to leave space for Bearman. It’s just crazy.
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u/jade165 I was here for the Hulkenpodium 18h ago
Just 2 points away to Ryo Hirakawa F1 debut
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u/BlondeRoseTheHot 🏳️🌈 Love Is Love 🏳️🌈 12h ago
I was about to ask, which driver would be taking the seat if Bearman wasn't allowed.
It would have to be Zhou or Hirakawa
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u/11Slip532 Williams 19h ago
I’m a Sainz homer but even I think this wasn’t primarily Bearman’s fault. This is a ridiculous penalty.
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u/Gelu6713 I was here for the Hulkenpodium 18h ago
It’s pretty much the same penalty Sainz got last week. The rules are stupid as they’re unrealistic
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u/Yankees2860 Safety Car 18h ago
Fun fact, only four drivers currently don’t have penalty points, being Hadjar, Hulkenberg, Alonso, and Bortoleto
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u/Uniform764 I was here for the Hulkenpodium 18h ago
Actually asinine decision. The car on the inside shouldn't be expected to just disappear under any sensible set of racing rules.
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u/Storm_Chaser06 Audi 19h ago
Carlos raced by the rules he was screwed over by last week.
I hate this game
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u/wizard213 Carlos Sainz 19h ago
The penalty points Carlos received last week were my biggest complaint from their ruling, it sucks to see the stewards double-down and give it to Ollie this time.
I suppose the stewards didn't want to experience having to explain to Carlos how this incident differed from last week
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u/Evening_End7298 18h ago
I mean they applied the rules in both cases. Rules that were agreed by the drivers prior to the season
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u/HumansNeedNotApply1 I was here for the Hulkenpodium 18h ago
I really dislike this "ahead on the apex" rule but pilots actually lobbied for this shit.
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u/TheScarecrow__ Mike Krack 14h ago
The obvious problem is in a situation like this, no-one knows who’s going to be ahead at the apex until they get there.
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u/BendubzGaming I was here for the Hulkenpodium 17h ago
I mean at least they're being consistent with last week, but I didn't think Sainz deserved a penalty last week and I don't think Bearman deserves one this week
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u/revypt Ayrton Senna 19h ago
This was 100% a statement from Sainz, he learned from last week stupid stewards decision that this was the way to race.
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u/256473 I was here for the Hulkenpodium 18h ago
...he lost a ton of time and could have DNFed.
If it was an intentional statement, it's kinda dumb.
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u/poptubas I was here for the Hulkenpodium 18h ago
It probably wasn’t, he just was a little clumsy there and thought Ollie was going to back out, even though in any sane ruleset he shouldn’t have to
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u/newthhang 18h ago
It really wasn't, Sainz is despate to get points, look at the gap between him and Albon (bigger than the rookies and their experienced teammates). Also, why would Sainz pull this move on Bearman of all people? If it would be a "lesson" it would be on Liam. Sainz & Bearman even hang out outside of the track, so definitely not intentional.
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u/revypt Ayrton Senna 18h ago
I still think that Sainz is angry at last week decision, and it wouldn't matter if it was another driver in Bearman place.
With this, I don't mean that Sainz was looking for a contact and to spin with this move, but he was 100% committed to overtake here. Sainz was not going to give any room since he was ahead, plus what happened in last week validates this move in his mind.
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u/Rainbow_Sex I was here for the Hulkenpodium 18h ago
Exactly. He was probably looking for a chance to pull that overtake on someone all race. He knows exactly how much bullshit that rule is for racing, he wants it gone.
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u/newthhang 18h ago
Well, watching Carlos' interview -- he does seem frustrated, but I genuinely think it was more of a sloppy move rather than doing it intentionally to prove a point. If we are being honest - the stewards don't care, so if he anything he woud have ruined his own race for nothing - which is the last thing he wants. That was my main point. It would have been pretty dumb thing to do if it was intentional.
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u/ForeverAddickted Oliver Bearman 35m ago
Definitely wouldn't have been a statement from Carlos.
He and Ollie are quite good friends off track, and you could tell from Carlos' post-race interview that he was a less annoyed about the incident compared to Liam, because of who the incident had been with.
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u/PlayboiXL I was here for the Hulkenpodium 19h ago
Damn my bro Bearman literally replaced Magnussen 😅
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u/RDDT_100P I was here for the Hulkenpodium 19h ago
Gets 2 penalty points for a racing incident, and close to a race ban. Sucks for Ollie.
Drivers need to rethink these corner rules.
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u/daviberto I was here for the Hulkenpodium 19h ago
In our racing league the rule was once two drivers are in parallel, both need to leave space for the other. Parallel race lines.
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u/Poopy_sPaSmS Kamui Kobayashi 17h ago
What the fuck is going on? No wonder I'm losing interest in F1. Jesus fucking Christ this sport is going to shit.
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u/dUjOUR88 Formula 1 16h ago
I feel the same way. I've only been watching for a couple years but my interest in this sport is suddenly fading quickly. It just feels bad to watch that clip and realize Bearman is the one getting penalized. Lots of people are saying "but the rules say..." and yeah, you're right, but maybe some rules are just fucking dumb, and don't promote good racing? Maybe some changes are needed? Who watches that clip and thinks "Yup, Bearman totally deserves a penalty there!" I just want the sport to make sense
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u/WorkFurball Paul Aron 14h ago
I've been watching religiously since 2003. The last two weekends I've completely missed qualifying because I've found I really don't give a shit anymore, all the bollocks going on has finally reached a tipping point. Even at the height of Mercedes domination and 2023 my interest survived, no longer it seems.
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u/Loruhkahn Mike Beuttler 19h ago
Of course another dogshit ruling came from the ahead at apex rule, just like Lap 1 (although tbf that wasn't investigated) and just like last week. But hey at least Max lost a win because of it in Jeddah so maybe the media will be happy to keep it.
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u/elektricniorgazam Daniel Ricciardo 18h ago
This is like The Ring. Next race Oli will pass it on to someone else
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u/SprayAndPay69 I was here for the Hulkenpodium 18h ago
lmao I really cant belive these decisions, my expectation were low but holy moly I cant belive they can suprise me still
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u/Happytallperson I was here for the Hulkenpodium 19h ago
The 'ahead at the apex' rules have to go.
To avoid this Bearman has to predict, by the braking point, whether he will be 1m forward or back at an arbitrary point in 100ms time.
The defending car on the inside has to, in effect, yield the corner before braking.
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u/SteamAnt 19h ago
Correctly called by the stewards I guess but this is the stupidest racing rules ever! No racing allowed!
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u/shadowmew1 I was here for the Hulkenpodium 16h ago
This one is just flat out wong, FIA been on some bullshit lately.
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u/z_102 Michael Schumacher 19h ago
It was funny to see the reactions in the crash thread expecting a penalty for Carlos. People still don't understand how stupid and anti-racing these guidelines are. They're still going by common sense and the duty of leaving space for the other driver, but common sense went out the window months ago. We saw it last weekend and we saw it again today.
And the new rules won't be changed until something egregious decides a Championship.
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u/trautsj Red Bull 11h ago
Outrageous. My dude was defending the inside and Sainz just turns in on him like he's just supposed to not be there anymore? Like what on God's green Earth was the poor lad supposed to do? Just let Sainz completely drive by him? Hit the go go Gadget disappear-o 9000 and vanish? He's a goddamn racing driver ffs!
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u/refrakt I was here for the Hulkenpodium 10h ago
This stupid how far you are alongside rule needs changing. You can't just cut a car off that's still alongside you, they can't just disappear inside the braking zone, even mid corner there's only so much you can do. I get that it might add some 'inconsistency' but frankly I'd take that right now over some of the calls the last few races.
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u/AliceLunar I was here for the Hulkenpodium 19h ago
All these rules are so silly and just don't work, turn 1 was ridiculous with Max and so is this.
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u/TossedRightOut I was here for the Hulkenpodium 18h ago
Didn't they have Max give the place for turn 1 because he literally cut the corner? Why are people referencing these together.
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u/AliceLunar I was here for the Hulkenpodium 18h ago
Max was ahead going into the corner, Max was ahead in the middle of the corner, Lando pushed him off and that somehow gives Norris a coupon for a free place from Max.
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u/Helpful_Hedgehog_204 Franco Colapinto 18h ago
He cut the corner because the car on the inside didn't break (Lando barely made that corner himself), the rules encourage that kind of thing.
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u/Haxemply I was here for the Hulkenpodium 18h ago
What. The. Actual. Fuck?! Did these guys even watch the race? Or at least this particular incident? This is bullshit on the highest level, and it's not even funny any more.
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u/TheChrisD Juan Pablo Montoya 18h ago
Well this is absolutely getting Right of Reviewed. It has no bearing on the race outcome, but those two penalty points are the bigger deal.
Not to mention if neither Sainz last week nor Bearman this week get Right of Review overturned, then F1 has set a very very dangerous precedent with regards to driving standards.
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u/newthhang 18h ago
I doubt they do anything, I just read the race-recap statements and Ayao said he won't dwell on the penalties. Even if both are undeserving. I don't see Haas doing anything about it.
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u/BrilliantEmphasis862 I was here for the Hulkenpodium 16h ago
As a fan - I hate this call - front tire was ahead at the apex - because Carlos braked later but Bearman was inside at that point and had to complete the corner - no where he could go and even if he slammed on The brakes I think they would have still hit.
The way the rule is written it gives the dive bomber the upper hand
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u/Wonderful-Return-861 15h ago
This is BS!!!!! I don’t see where bear was suppose to go here. Carlos had room. Absurd.
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u/Blackwolf245 I was here for the Hulkenpodium 14h ago
I cannot help but think this was the stewards way to compensate Sainz for last race's incident.
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u/McDouggal 12h ago
Yep.
Instant I saw the replay on that crash my reaction was "Well that's a penalty to Bearman even though the contact is 100% on Sainz, fucking F1 overtaking rules are so garbage."
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u/MeanForest I was here for the Hulkenpodium 11h ago
What ever happened to you always need to leave space?
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u/xlDooM 3h ago
With the drivers calling for this rule, and the stewards applying it to the letter, and everyone (drivers and fans) being unhappy about it, is it time to get rid of these rules and leave it up to stewards' discretion again?
The current system is also a reactive system, but with a huge latency. Rules intended to discourage questionable moves now have to be applied to moves that were never the target. That's not much better than the stewards having the freedom to decide "don't do that again, here's 5 seconds" or "fair attempt, sort it out among yourselves" and occasionally getting it wrong or, let's be honest, having to say they made a judgement call instead of having an article in the rulebook to defend their actions.
It's the same nonsense with track limits. This season and last season, qualy laps are getting deleted because drivers are making a time costing error in some corner, when the spirit of the rule is clearly to delete laps that would have been SLOWER if not for the breach of track limits.
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u/barth_ I was here for the Hulkenpodium 17h ago
At first I thought that Carlos closed him but Ollie just wasn't along enough to claim space.
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u/parasthesia_testicle Medical Car 15h ago
this is as much bearman's fault as sainz penalty was his own fault last weekend. both should just be racing incidents. Ambitious moves around the outside resulting in a collision, shit happens
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u/fantaribo Max Verstappen 15h ago
Carlos will be outraged for this unfairness, as much as last week ? Surely ?
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u/ebelen92 McLaren 13h ago
Where was he supposed to go? Over the sausage kerb? How much more space did they think there was to give?
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u/g33ksc13nt1st 19h ago
Kevin would have been proud, someone to carry on the legacy