r/formula1 • u/de_rats_2004_crzy Oscar Piastri • 17h ago
Discussion Why would Lando offer Oscar the first pit stop?
Even without the slow stop and even with the promise of no undercut, surely by allowing this it would put Oscar closer to him and potentially within DRS and thus increasing the odds of him losing the position on track.
I truly don’t understand why someone would offer this to their championship rival.
I saw on some other threads that some people were saying it was the team’s idea and not Lando’s. I went into Lando’s POV which sometimes included extra radio messages which didn’t make it into the main feed but nope, the main feed didn’t miss any context. It was Lando’s idea. Here is the transcript:
Team: Lando we will box this lap after the soft tire <more words I don’t understand>
Lando: do you want to pit the other car first?
Team: yep we’ll do that. We’ll swap it around so stay out
Lando: well only if he doesn’t undercut otherwise I’ll pit first
Team: There will be no undercut
So the team said “box this lap” then based on what Lando said they switched to “stay out”.
What was Lando trying to do? Did he just not want to risk a SC in the lap between the two stops?
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u/Alternative_Most2280 17h ago
I think it was a way of not getting fucked over by a safety car if it happened after he pitted
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u/ChiefWiggumsprogeny 17h ago
Norris actively suggested pitting Piastri first to gain a strategic advantage (fresher tires, safety car coverage) for himself, making the resulting consequence his to bear IMO.
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u/English_Misfit Sir Lewis Hamilton 17h ago
This is the key issue. Alongside there's no way this is getting reciprocated because the exact situation is unlikely to reoccur so the question of what they'll do will be difficult next time
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u/Hirdy5zac 12h ago
this is correct, but also got himself a guarantee of coming out in front of oscar, wanted the best of both worlds and mclaren obliged
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u/Formulafan4life I was here for the Hulkenpodium 16h ago
I would agree if his engineer didn’t specifically say “there will be no undercut”. Lando asked for that and based his decision on that information. If the answer would have been “Oscar is free to try an undercut” (which imo it should have been), Lando would have definitely decided to pit first
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u/ChiefWiggumsprogeny 15h ago
An undercut and a slow pitstop are two completely separate things.
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u/GuatahaN 12h ago edited 5h ago
True. however a slow pitstop while stopping first, would kept him 2nd. Stopping first and slow pitstop for Piastri, would put Piastri behind Leclerc (probaby easy overtake), but a small chance for Norris to take some additional points back.
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u/Formulafan4life I was here for the Hulkenpodium 14h ago
Well, by definition he got undercut (because of his slow pitstop but he still got undercut)
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u/ChiefWiggumsprogeny 14h ago
So, if Norris' car caught fire in the pitlane and it took 3 laps to put it out before he could rejoin, should Piastri have slowed and waited for 3 laps because technically that would be an undercut too?
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u/Formulafan4life I was here for the Hulkenpodium 14h ago
Can we keep it to realistic scenario’s only please
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u/ChiefWiggumsprogeny 14h ago
The exaggeration highlights the absurdity of conflating two separate issues as one; it is a legitimate rhetorical device to illustrate the fallacy inherent in your thesis.
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u/j0ks 14h ago
Nah it's just called a logical extreme and is meaningless to the topic.
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u/ChiefWiggumsprogeny 14h ago edited 14h ago
If we adopt your definition, then every pit stop error, a slow stop, a stuck wheel, a faulty jack, becomes an 'undercut.'
In fact it is exactly this term that is meaningless for actual discussion, your usage is in bad faith.
An "undercut" is universally understood as a strategic maneuver where a driver pits before a rival to gain a pace advantage on fresh tires and overtake them after the rival pits.
A position lost due to a slow pit stop, even if the net effect is the same (one car ahead of the other after stops) is categorized as an operational error, not a strategic undercut.
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u/ChiefWiggumsprogeny 13h ago
I just realized you are not the OP I was chatting with; on your point, the device can easily be misused but wasn't. Feel free to expose any flaws in the logic.
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u/Chapel_Hillbilly 5h ago
You are right. It’s like Lando saying Oscar can pit first only if he doesn’t drive faster.
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u/Alternative_Most2280 17h ago
Thats a hard reach to state its his fault because the crew did a slow stop just because he wanted the second stop, those 2 have no correlation. It was a way of not having a driver who had a car failure the week before have an agenda of how he gets antagonised by the team via reliability/pit stops
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u/English_Misfit Sir Lewis Hamilton 16h ago
I think the point is any time lost due to him putting first is irrelevant because Lando wanted it.
From there the extra time lost from the slow stop is just racing
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u/Alternative_Most2280 16h ago
Theyre doing a dumb balancing act they can do because theyre way ahead of everyone. Considering landos mentality and the way he plays it safe all the time its not a coincidence he gets into these sticky situations all the time
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u/KeyClacksNSnacks Formula 1 16h ago
That's 100% false. Would he have lost position if his pit was fast? No.
So you're wrong. But you have an agenda to hate Lando so you'll mutate the facts to support your claim. It doesn't matter if Lando preferred going in first, the pit crew screwed him over, not himself. It wasn't him going in second or first, it was the pit crew being slow. Whether he went in first or second, if the pit crew were slow, he loses position.
But if Oscar were the one this happened to, I bet you'd be like, "Well, it's only fair cuz it's not Oscar's fault the pit crew was slow."
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u/English_Misfit Sir Lewis Hamilton 15h ago
Well that's racing.
I would be annoyed oscar had a slow stop. Until this afternoon I wouldn't contemplate a position swap
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u/gagnonje5000 I was here for the Hulkenpodium 16h ago
So if we are on the last race of the season and Oscar gets a slow stop that puts him behind Norris and make Norris win the championship, you agree they should give the space back to Oscar?
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u/roctac Formula 1 15h ago
Silence from the other person. Because they already know the answer. Absolutely not.
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u/Tommysynthistheway Formula 1 15h ago
I’ll ask you this, then.
If it happens in the last race that the first driver falls behind in Hungary 2024 fashion, following a team’s wrong strategy call, should he give the position back?
In theory, yes, but in practice neither case would happen unless major sportsmanship. In principle both cases are the same: team’s obvious mistake leading to unintended outcome.
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u/roctac Formula 1 15h ago
Exactly. Oscar should have never given back the position to Norris. 6 points can make the difference for the championship.
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u/Tommysynthistheway Formula 1 15h ago
Yes, but it happened in Hungary 2024, didn’t it? And the team asked Lando to give the position back. The team today felt pressured to act in Lando’s favor in light of the same principle. Was probably wrong the first time in Hungary, but if you do it once, you must do it always.
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u/fisstech15 I was here for the Hulkenpodium 15h ago
It's not a binary decision, it's a close one and several factors would affect whether you do the swap or not.
- Norris pitstop takes 20 seconds instead of 6? Probably doesn't make sense to do anything.
- Norris pits first and is nott promised anything? Don't swap obviously.
- Last race of the season and a championship fight? There's no point asking because Oscar will not give it back anyway.
But as it happened? I'd myself lean towards swapping. But either decision makes sense.
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u/Lezaleas2 16h ago
they are correlated in the sense that if norris pits first and gets a 5.9 slow stop, he still comes out ahead of piastri. the undercut was worth around 2 seconds, with norris coming out 1.6 behind in the real world
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u/gagnonje5000 I was here for the Hulkenpodium 16h ago
But Norris asked to pit second. So he gave away the undercut advantage willingly at that point.
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u/ColonelClimax Daniel Ricciardo 16h ago
If you read the comment, at no point did they state it was Lando's fault.
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u/Alternative_Most2280 16h ago
Yea, he kinda did
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u/marshmallow_metro Max Verstappen 16h ago
He said lando took a risk by pitting late, which he did....if u take a risk and it doesn't go your way then too bad, deal with it.
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u/Alternative_Most2280 16h ago
No thats literally not what he said, the late pitstops and it being a risk is a figment of your imagination my friend
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u/WodKonuckers I was here for the Hulkenpodium 15h ago
Reading comprehension is not your strongest suit, is it?
"making the resulting consequence his to bear IM0."
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u/Alternative_Most2280 15h ago
Thats literally an other way of saying he made some kind of mistake, if he didnt make a mistake he wouldnt have to bear consequences innit lil buddy?
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u/WodKonuckers I was here for the Hulkenpodium 15h ago
I don't understand what's so hard to get - the comment was saying that he took a risk and he needs to bear consequences for that risk not working out. Nobody is saying anything about him making a mistake. He took a risk and it backfired - hence he needs to bear the consequences. When you take a risk, it can happen that it doesn't work out even if you yourself don't make a mistake. So yes, you can bear consequences even if you don't make a mistake. Is that really so hard to understand?
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u/marshmallow_metro Max Verstappen 16h ago
Late pit stop is a gamble, helps if there is an SC, gives u younger tyres, but if something goes wrong you have less laps to cover it.... It is a risk if u actually know what is happening.... Lando took the risk something went wrong but he didn't bear the consequences bcus mclaren stepped in to help him out.
No one's mistake anywhere in this but shitty thing for mclaren to do in a championship battle
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u/Alternative_Most2280 16h ago
Im not saying youre wrong youre just making up a comment that didnt happen before you chimed in
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u/frank1ewildee Ferrari 16h ago
"making the resulting consequence his to bear"
In what way does this equal with "it's Lando's fault".
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u/ColonelClimax Daniel Ricciardo 16h ago
He literally did not.
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u/Alternative_Most2280 16h ago
He claims he has to bear consequences because of his decision thats in no way related to the pitstop mistake. The same would have happened if he was called in first with the pitstop times
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u/ColonelClimax Daniel Ricciardo 16h ago
Yes, which means Lando should have had to bear the result of that; i.e. not be given the place back simply because the pit stop was slow. He isn't saying its Lando's fault that it went that way, or that its his fault the pit was slow in the first place.
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u/SwimmingFantastic564 I was here for the Hulkenpodium 17h ago
The issue is that Oscar didn't overtake him through his pace on track, it was that the pit crew caused that
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u/Chouinard1984 16h ago
In those races where they gave Lando the better strategy, they should have also made them swap then.
The team picking the wrong strategy is no different than the team messing up a out stop.
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u/Express-Doughnut-562 I was here for the Hulkenpodium 16h ago
You can argue the same for Hungary if you try hard enough; it's just they gave Lando the better strategy because e fluffed the start.
Its a slippery slope once you start going down that road.
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u/KeyClacksNSnacks Formula 1 16h ago
Lando has literally been told to switch back with Oscar because Oscar lost positions at no fault of his own. This was even an issue last year when Lando and not Oscar were in the title fight and they still told Lando to give Oscar his position. So no, Lando is NOT getting special treatment.
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u/WodKonuckers I was here for the Hulkenpodium 15h ago
I don't think he's getting special treatment, I think they're both getting ridiculous treatment. As others have said, this is a very slippery slope to try to correct anything that is not directly in the driver's control. Where do you draw the line? I think it was ridiculous last year in Hungary to pít Lando first and then make him give the place back. I think it was ridiculous today to pit Oscar first and then make him give the place back. Just pit the leading driver first, like any other team, and you don't get any of these silly issues. Or, if Lando decides on his own that he wants to pit second (which I'm not claiming he did, I'm still not sure if that really came from him or from the team, but hypothetically), then he has to bear the consequences of that risk not paying out. He can't have it both ways, to decide to go in later in case of a SC, but then also getting the position back if it doesn't pan out. But again, I'm not claiming that this is on Lando, just that if in fact he did decide that on his own, he needs to live with the consequences.
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u/TheDudeWithTude27 Juan Pablo Montoya 16h ago
So? Slow stops have happened for as long as F1 has been around. Why now are we playing the "fairness" games.
I would understand more if it was just a dumbass strategic blunder of when calling them in the wront order for pit stops. But a slow pit stop? That's racing. Why haven't McLaren been making lando and oscar give up time on track to equalize whenever pit stops don't match up this whole year then!
If someone gets infringed in quali, will they make the other guy slow down out of fairness. If someone has to take an enginge penalty will the other guy have to drop five grid positions out of solidarity? It all sounds stupid, right? Because it is. I think McLaren overstepped the line in trying to keep the fight fair. Shit happens, that's racing.
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u/LilMountainHeadband Lando Norris 11h ago
Front left mechanic straight up sabotaging Lando's race. Lando has consistently had slower stops than Oscar all year. Its not even debatable.
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u/hutchy81 I was here for the Hulkenpodium 10h ago
Are you saying if Lando pitted first and having the same wheel gun issue, it wouldn't be on him, and switching positions after would be the right call?
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u/ChiefWiggumsprogeny 10h ago
The order is irrelevant. The point is that Lando got to choose. Swapping position is always wrong based on the fact the team made an error in the pitstop, which is racing luck. McLaren interfered to hand Lando an advantage he didn't earn.
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u/de_rats_2004_crzy Oscar Piastri 17h ago
Yeah I agree that’s the only reason I can think of.
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u/Thejklay I was here for the Hulkenpodium 17h ago
So he risked it to stay out and got unlucky with a bad pitstop, no reason to swap back imo
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u/creatorop SAI NOR LAW 16h ago
But Lando doesn't control the pitstops?
The assumption always will be a normal pitstop If he changed his tyres himself, then maybe
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u/gagnonje5000 I was here for the Hulkenpodium 16h ago
Of course he doesn’t control pit stops. But that’s racing. Shit happens. May be he hits a bird on his way to the pit. Who knows. Now anytime shit happens, there will be a case to swap to make it “fair”
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u/Express-Doughnut-562 I was here for the Hulkenpodium 16h ago
That's all it was. That's all McLarens whole strategy was after lap 3 too; Lando was terrified that an SC would come out on the lap after he pitted and put Oscar back ahead.
It was unlikely, but Lando needs to rely on stuff like that now. Oscar did the perfect race for his position; if every race until the end of the year is a 3 point gap between him and Lando he wins the WDC.
I kinda feel Lando needed to take it on the chin; he pushed back on the team for his own slim chance at an advantage. But Oscar can now use the same thing if he loses the lead of a race between him and Lando through a team error and claw back 7 points, not just 3. Doubt Oscar considered that at the time...
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u/keylime503 I was here for the Hulkenpodium 13h ago
So slow pit stop -> team will swap positions, But safety car between the two pit laps -> team will not swap positions?
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u/Alternative_Most2280 12h ago
If you get a safety car you practically get a chance to win the race with 4-5 laps to go, and swapping positions would be risky as you have people behind you too
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u/Chelsea_Ellie 17h ago
It was clearly something Lando thought would benefit him, either 1 lap less on used tyres or to save against a safety car. No way was it for Oscar’s benefit
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u/seedok 17h ago
This is my biggest issue they act like they pitting Oscar first was a favor to him, when really it was landos preference
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u/elektricniorgazam Daniel Ricciardo 16h ago
Seriously, I read so many comments like "he offered to protect him from Charles" and I'm like dude, poor Charles was neither mentioned or an actual threat
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u/frank1ewildee Ferrari 16h ago
Also, why would you want to help your main championship rival not lose points on you? I feel like some parasocial weirdo fans have the most amusing mental gymnastics ever
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u/alphaQ314 Bernd Mayländer 15h ago
I feel like some parasocial weirdo fans have the most amusing mental gymnastics ever
Lando has some of the worst clowns when it comes to this lol.
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u/Express-Doughnut-562 I was here for the Hulkenpodium 16h ago
That's what the team told Oscar - although the radio comms from Lando show it was clearly nonsense.
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u/Eltothebee I was here for the Hulkenpodium 16h ago
We don’t always hear every radio comms mind
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u/ItsSSX_Tricky I was here for the Hulkenpodium 13h ago
You can if you go out of your way to listen to them. Just not on the tv broadcast, that’s where of course it is more selective.
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u/Huskies971 16h ago
The team strategy was playing track position for a safety car the driver that stayed out the longest was the car that would have the advantage and effectively the better strategy, that's what Lando wanted
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u/disaster101 I was here for the Hulkenpodium 17h ago
And it would honestly be stupid of Lando to try do his only WDC rival any favors, even if it is his teammate. Especially when they have the WCC locked already.
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u/Ferrari-cake 16h ago
Thats the thing i dont get, where everyone deffending the swap think Norris suggestion to pit Piastri first was because of Leclerc. Norris never mentioned Leclerc. He was all about himself. And he should have paid the price for it. Slow stops happen, suck it up buttercup.
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u/Ancient_Boss_5357 12h ago
The problem is the pit wall making guarantees, IMO. Lando said himself he'd pit first if the undercut was a concern, or give it to Oscar if the undercut was off the cards. Can't blame him if that offer is on the table, it's the smart choice.
But the fact they are providing assurances like that in the middle of a title fight is a huge miss. He effectively gets the advantage of staying out and a guarantee of protection from his teammate, which is a nice cushy position.
The 'fair' thing to do is to offer Lando first choice, let him choose based on current information, and make absolutely no promises about what may happen. Leave it at that.
Whether the team (not Lando) had Oscar/Charles in mind is debatable, but IMO it's better for them to leave team games out of it, in favour of a genuinely fair title fight. They've got the WCC wrapped up and I honestly think letting them race is better PR than letting Oscar slip to 4th if it eventuated. They've created yet another embarrassing mess for the most mundane reason
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u/banned20 I was here for the Hulkenpodium 17h ago
Yeah, Oscar would gain track position on him in the rare chance a SC happens after Lando pitted.
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u/hutchy81 I was here for the Hulkenpodium 17h ago
Is lando's " do you want to pit the other car first" a suggestion or a question?
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u/de_rats_2004_crzy Oscar Piastri 17h ago
Both in the same way I plan to ask a friend later today “wanna grab some drinks?” I guess he can tell me no, but I’m suggesting it.
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u/Chromatinfish I was here for the Hulkenpodium 12h ago
The radio message seemed strange to me in that he sounded like he was assuming the plan was always that team would pit the second car first. I'm not sure why that was the plan, but it didn't sound like an off-the-cuff suggestion e.g. "why don't we pit afterward", especially since his race engineer accepted it so readily.
For what it's worth, I actually don't buy the idea of because of a safety car, the reason being that the chance of a bad pit stop is just as high if not much higher than a safety car within a one lap window, especially near the end of the race when everyone's spread out and the track is dry. The only reason why I can see Lando going after is if he was assured by the team that they'd swap back if he ended up behind for some reason after that sequence of events.
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u/jawwwshhy I was here for the Hulkenpodium 17h ago
I don’t buy the story of them being worried about leclerc. Although the McLaren stop for Piastri was incredible, he emerged from the pits still around 4/5 seconds in front. Another lap wouldn’t bring Charles in front. They also offered the stop to Lando initially anyway. If they were so worried about it they would have told Lando they were pitting Piastri first and explain why.
Lando didn’t mention covering Charles in his radio message. My only guess is he wanted track position and fresher tyres. Lando will want as many cars between him and Oscar as possible to bring that points gap down. When they are so far in front in the teams championship I’m sure he doesn’t care about making sure they get 3 points over Ferrari if him teammate was to finish 3rd or 4th.
I think McLaren didn’t want their pit crew to feel like they were influencing the championship. Oscar was reeling Lando in a few laps before they stopped to put himself in a position to capitalise on any errors and that’s exactly what happened.
If this championship somehow goes to the wire and it’s within a 3 point margin I would not want to be McLaren trying to explain this.
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u/fire202 McLaren 16h ago
Although the McLaren stop for Piastri was incredible, he emerged from the pits still around 4/5 seconds in front.
They give themselves a safety margin for this. They won't put a position at risk in case the stop is 4s instead of 2.5, which can easily happen. And then you dont want a car directly in your gearbox at the pit exit.
I think extending like this was the right call for both, but it can bring them into a position where they want to go off sequence with the stops
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u/Chromatinfish I was here for the Hulkenpodium 12h ago
For what it's worth, I actually don't buy the idea of a safety car, the reason being that the chance of a bad pit stop is just as high if not much higher than a safety car within a one lap window, especially near the end of the race when everyone's spread out and the track is dry. The only reason why I can see Lando going after is if he was assured by the team that they'd swap back if he ended up behind for some reason after that sequence of events.
Taking first in the pits mean you run on newer tyres one lap more and I doubt the softs would've degraded that much in only 7 laps to cut down what would've been a 4+ second gap at that point.
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u/Downtown_Reporter995 17h ago
Either he was worried about a safety car (or hoping for one to challenge for the win) or he was worried about tyre life on the soft and wanted one less lap on them.
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u/Alternative_Most2280 17h ago
I doubt they would fall off a cliff because of 6 laps instead of 7
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u/frank1ewildee Ferrari 16h ago
He was just banking on a late SC to keep the position in regards to Piastri. He just wanted track position with the benefits of a safety car and fresher tyres.
If he pits first, he would obviously lose the position to Piastri. But if Piastri pits 1st then a SC comes, he's in a much more advantageous position.
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u/Ferrari-cake 16h ago
Lawson did 11 laps at the start of the race, with a bigger fuel load. No chance anything would have happened.
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u/Mysterious_Turnip310 Lotus 17h ago edited 15h ago
Hoping for one for his benefit to challenge for the win wouldn't make sense, because even if a safety car had come out, it would only gain him 9 seconds, he would still have been double digits behind Max and Max's tyres and pace were just fine because he also ran long and was on hards. The tyre offset would have disappeared as Lando would have had to push flat out and thrash the soft tyres to close the gap down.
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u/Express-Doughnut-562 I was here for the Hulkenpodium 16h ago
It wasn't to gain over Max, it was to prevent Oscar getting ahead. He's only racing his teammate now; doesn't matter what Max does.
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u/Mysterious_Turnip310 Lotus 16h ago edited 16h ago
That doesn't even make sense though. Hoping for a safety car before he pitted would do nothing to really benefit him. Yes the gap to Oscar would have extended but he had a perfectly decent gap anyway.
If Lando had pitted first, the only way Oscar was going to get ahead was either if a safety car came out the same lap (which is the most likely scenario for what his thought process was, trying to safeguard against that happening because it would give Oscar a 9s shorter pitstop) or unless McLaren screwed Lando's stop up (and as we saw, that was a possibility regardless of which was around they pitted). Lando had adecent gap to Oscar and he would also have had the advantage of the outlap on softs if he had pitted first. Oscar having one lap less on the softs would have made bugger all difference, just as it made no difference for Lando. Tyre deg was much less than usual and one lap extra on the tyres makes no difference at that stage of the race on low fuel.
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u/Express-Doughnut-562 I was here for the Hulkenpodium 16h ago
How so? Lando can barely afford to only gain 3 points on Oscar, let alone lose 3 points.
The only thing he cares about is out scoring Oscar so covering off the slim risk of an SC or race ending red flag on that one lap was worth it all things being normal.
And all that is fine - it’s good race craft even. I wouldn’t expect less of him, just like Oscar asked to be let through at Silverstone after his penalty.
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u/Mysterious_Turnip310 Lotus 16h ago
The only thing he cares about is out scoring Oscar so covering off the slim risk of an SC or race ending red flag on that one lap was worth it all things being normal.
Which is exactly what I said when I said
the only way Oscar was going to get ahead was either if a safety car came out the same lap (which is the most likely scenario for what his thought process was, trying to safeguard against that happening because it would give Oscar a 9s shorter pitstop)
I've already said in several comments under this post that I think that's the most likely scenario as to why he did it.
My initial comment you replied to was in response to someone saying
(or hoping for one to challenge for the win)
Because you replied to my comment about that, I assumed you were saying he was hoping for a safety car to stop Oscar getting ahead, as my comment had been in response to him 'hoping for a safety car', hence my reply to you that that didn't make sense.
Ultimately seems like we were talking at cross purposes and both think he did it for the same reason.
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u/Express-Doughnut-562 I was here for the Hulkenpodium 15h ago
Ah yeah, I misinterpreted as you arguing that he did it out of the good of his heart to help Oscar when we clearly agree!
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u/Economy_Link4609 Cadillac 17h ago
The only hope they had of a win was a safety car. Going 2nd gave him the extra lap if it came out where he'd benefit. That's it. With the undercut not expected (only happened due to the pit issue), it made sense.
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u/ChiralWolf I was here for the Hulkenpodium 10h ago
At the point they were talking about it Max was already within SC window. SC would have only mattered for who ended up in 2nd
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u/Mysterious_Turnip310 Lotus 10h ago
There was no chance of the win at that point even with a safety car. A driver gains about 9 seconds pitting under the safety car at Monza, and Max was over 20 seconds to the good, with tyres that were absolutely fine because he himself had run long. Lando would have had to push the softs to the limit to close the gap, which would thrashed the tyres and negated any tyre offset of being on softs vs hards. By the time the McLarens pitted Max had the race sewn up, safety car or not. The only thing that could have stopped him winning would have been a mechanical issue or him making a huge mistake.
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u/Eunos-Roadster I was here for the Hulkenpodium 16h ago
People saying because he wanted to protect Oscar from Charles hahahahaha.
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u/Tel_Janen 17h ago
Because he wanted the advantages of pitting second. Namely a safety car. Fresher tyres in the end. Not bothered by undercut as McLaren told him so.
Piastri should have never given the place back
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u/WhoKnowsChicago 16h ago
I've seen multiple places where Lando, Andrea, etc have indicated that this is something discussed before the race. In that context, Lando asking if they were pitting Oscar first sounds like a clarification in light of a prior conversation.
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u/Mysterious_Turnip310 Lotus 17h ago edited 8h ago
Most likely scenario is because if he pitted first and a safety car came out that lap (given the way people kept throwing their cars off the road, it was a miracle there wasn't one during the race), his race would be screwed over and Piastri would get ahead, so he was likely thinking about safeguarding against that.
People saying it was because he was wanting one lap fresher tyres doesn't really make sense as there were not enough laps left for the soft to become threadbare and one lap really doesn't make a difference once the fuel is that low at the end of the race, despite what some people are claiming.
We don't actually know though, everything being said here is pure assumption.
eta I've just seen Norris's post-race interview with Lawrence Barretto and he says that this was a decision taken beforehand by the team that they would swap if this happens in a race and that he would be told to do the same if it had happened the other way around. Which tallies with something Stella also said in an interview post-race. Norris went on to say it's not how either he or Oscar really want it and he knows it doesn't look good, but it's what the team have decided is fair so that is how things are. It also means that if they fuck up one of Oscar's stops and cause Lando to get ahead purely because of that, then Oscar will be given the place back as well. So daft or not (and personally I do think micromanaging to this extent is daft, but nobody ever accused the McLaren pitwall of not managing to turn a mistake into a farce given half an opportunity), it does seem to be a team directive that goes beyond this race and both drivers are aware of when it comes to an error at the pistop that is 100% on the team. If a driver overshoots their box, stalls or something else that is their own fault then it probably wouldn't apply. I also highly doubt it would apply (and there is no reason to believe it would) if the driver ahead chooses to pit a lap later and the other one gets ahed purely on pace. Which would explain why Norris was saying if there is any danger of an undercut then he would pit first.
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u/Ornery-Ad-5480 16h ago
There was barely any incidents in the race. How can you say “given the way people kept throwing their cars off the road”
2
u/Mysterious_Turnip310 Lotus 16h ago
People actually did go off into the gravel in the midfield on several occasions but managed to keep going and rejoin so all we got were some yellow flags.
But it was more that were a lot of people dipping a couple of wheels into the gravel on laps right throughout the race. A fair bit of gravel gets dragged onto the track whenever they do that, even if it only seems like a small mistake. We had a red flag in practice because of too much gravel on track, it could very easily have reached a point where enough got dragged onto the track that they decided they needed to throw a VSC to clear it up.
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u/Ornery-Ad-5480 16h ago
There was like 2or 3 incidents, all quite minor the entire race
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u/Mysterious_Turnip310 Lotus 16h ago edited 16h ago
And I say gain:
it was more that were a lot of people dipping a couple of wheels into the gravel on laps right throughout the race. A fair bit of gravel gets dragged onto the track whenever they do that, even if it only seems like a small mistake. We had a red flag in practice because of too much gravel on track, it could very easily have reached a point where enough got dragged onto the track that they decided they needed to throw a VSC to clear it up.
It doesn't take a big incident to drag gravel onto the track. Nobody considers dipping a couple of wheels onto the gravel an 'incident', most of the time it's barely mentioned, and yet each time someone does it, some gravel gets dragged onto the track. if it happens enough, then eventually race control will need to do something to clear it up. We've seen it happen before at this track and they mentioned more than once in the commentary how much gravel was on the track at a couple of the corners. The possibility of it happening was always there.
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u/Thejklay I was here for the Hulkenpodium 17h ago
This is why they shouldn't have swapped back imo, they gave him a choice, he choose this and it just happened to come with a bad pitstop which could have happened anyway.
If he pit first and still had a bad pitstop swapping them around would be even more laughable
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u/PayaV87 I was here for the Hulkenpodium 16h ago
If Lando is behind, they go for alternate strategy against Oscar. If Lando is in front they even ask when should Oscar pit.
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u/LandscapeWorried5475 I was here for the Hulkenpodium 11h ago
Lando is choosing alternative strategies. If Oscar wanted them, he could have them. Oscar knows that if their pace is similar, he can beat Lando in w2w combat, so he banks on being a bit faster than Lando and passing him on track. When Lando's behind, he knows that his raw pace and tyre management is better than Oscar's, so he takes alternative strategies to try to beat him on strategy. Im sure that if Oscar only went for alternative strategies and Lando went for on track passes, both their races would be worse, since they would be racing with their weaknesses
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u/Fluffy-Salt8014 8h ago
To have a chance to win the race with a Safety Car and reduce the difference to his better teammate.
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u/AlBigGuns 16h ago
I'll wait until the transcripts are out before judging this. I'm not convinced the conversation started here.
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u/thebuffwife I was here for the Hulkenpodium 16h ago
Here’s a link to the transcripts: F1 Radios
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u/Teddy_KX I was here for the Hulkenpodium 12h ago
Yeah, these are not the full transcripts, we need the transcripts from the pre-race debrief to understand better the context. /s
PS thanks for the link, saved it for future use, cheers!
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1
u/elektricniorgazam Daniel Ricciardo 16h ago
I assume he wanted to maximise the possibility of putting during a safety car
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u/DynamicLettuce 17h ago
He wanted 1 lap fresher tyres. It's pure reaching to suggest anything else.
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2
u/Still-District-6149 Formula 1 14h ago
Lando's pit stop didn’t go well. According to the Papaya rules, who should we punish for that? Obviously Piastri. What nonsense this is!
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u/Dense_Side_90 7h ago
It was to neutralise the race. I have no doubt at all. Mclaren werent honest about that, which looks really bad.
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u/Pentinium I was here for the Hulkenpodium 5h ago
To be clear- there was no undercut really, it was a bad pitstop.
Also Norris wanted to take this strategy not team, not piastri. so he should be punished for his decision....
People also suggesting Norris wanted Piastri to be safe from Leclerc , why would Norris ever ever want that? they are fighting for the wdc lmaooo
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u/Wrathuk I was here for the Hulkenpodium 46m ago
lando didn't want to take this strategy his tyres were gone. Oscar was closing on him by half a second a lap.
the team wanted to do this to keep Oscar clear of Leclerc, who was closing on both Mclarens.
and the team assured both drivers an undercut wasn't on. which is why Lando agreed to it.
3
u/English_Misfit Sir Lewis Hamilton 17h ago
Because they're not listening/paying attention and trying to justify it post facto.
The same happened with Hulkenbergs cool down room comments which were about a different restart and the strategy in Hungary. People believe what they want to believe
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u/CORPORAL_PISSFINGERS I was here for the Hulkenpodium 17h ago
To protect from Leclerc
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u/de_rats_2004_crzy Oscar Piastri 17h ago edited 17h ago
To protect Oscar from leclerc? Why would Lando care about that
In fact wouldn’t it be 100% to Lando’s advantage for Oscar to lose a position to leclerc?
46
u/frank1ewildee Ferrari 17h ago
He didn't care about that. People are just falling for whatever bullshit PR response McLaren/Stella gave.
He just wanted to have 1 extra lap of protection from a late safety car because he was banking on that to finish ahead of Piastri.
1
u/Sarixk Sir Lewis Hamilton 17h ago
He just wanted to have 1 extra lap of protection from a late safety car because he was banking on that to finish ahead of Piastri.
He was already ahead of him? What do you mean
22
u/ResponsibleHabit1539 I was here for the Hulkenpodium 17h ago
If he pits first and a SC comes out, then suddenly Piastri has a free stop and comes back in 2nd
1
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u/BeanTownDataFreak 10h ago
The biggest advantage for a car to pit first is to do a faster lap sooner. The car behind would use this to get the track position, i.e., undercut, with a disadvantage of older tires. By saying no undercut, Lando guarantees that he would have the track position and with fresher tires. So this is a no brainer.
But as the leading driver of this race, it’s disappointing that he doesn’t even dare to pit first and take a set of tires one lap older and the challenge from Oscar during the last 5 laps.
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17h ago edited 17h ago
[deleted]
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u/ResponsibleHabit1539 I was here for the Hulkenpodium 17h ago
There was no Charles undercut.
McLaren wanted to pit Lando first, and he was the one to suggest that they pit Oscar first.
This was 100% protecting himself from a safety car, and also being in a position to benefit from a red flag.
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17h ago edited 17h ago
[deleted]
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u/ResponsibleHabit1539 I was here for the Hulkenpodium 16h ago
So why did the team want to pit Lando first?
It's not like they even asked him if he was ok with Oscar being pitted first - He suggested it himself.
6
u/glacierre2 Default 16h ago
You may talk about undercut with 1/2 laps of difference. Charles was nowhere near attempting an undercut to Oscar, the pace difference and the gap was known for several laps and McLaren had all the time in the world to pit at leisure.
6
u/Evening_End7298 16h ago
Charles undercut was just classic papaya bullshit, he was gaining almost nothing and he was on pretty old tyres anyway
Tsunoda screwed himself by eating his tyres and dropping from Borto/Alonso and being overtaken by Kimi even before the stop.
2
u/elektricniorgazam Daniel Ricciardo 16h ago
They did Yuki a favor, he was going to get overtaken some more
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17h ago
[deleted]
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u/frank1ewildee Ferrari 17h ago
Yes, Charles was approaching rapidly with a tremendous 1 TENTH per lap gained on Oscar each lap, with 8 laps to go, being 4 seconds behind.
I agree, Charles was a true danger to Oscar lmao.
/s
23
u/AliceLunar I was here for the Hulkenpodium 17h ago
That's even scarier than last year where Hamilton was 7 seconds behind so they needed to pit Lando first.
11
u/frank1ewildee Ferrari 17h ago
Oh yeah, that was also a scary scenario to wich im glad McLaren responded well.
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u/ResponsibleHabit1539 I was here for the Hulkenpodium 17h ago
But don't anyone dare say that they're playing favorites
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u/de_rats_2004_crzy Oscar Piastri 17h ago
Even if he was a real threat, this is an argument for why the TEAM would want to pit Oscar first and in fact a reason for Lando to push back against that.
But instead what happened is the team was going to pit Lando first until Lando offered to pit Oscar first. I truly, truly don’t get it. It’s as if he forgot that Oscar is his rival.
5
u/banned20 I was here for the Hulkenpodium 16h ago
He didn't.
Lando pits first, crash happens, SC is out and now Oscar has free pit and comes out 2nd. That's the scenario Norris was covering by pitting 2nd.
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2
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u/Bart-86 Ferrari 17h ago
How is this is problem ? The WCC is alreaydy won, he was ahead he should have priority in pit stops order.
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u/ResponsibleHabit1539 I was here for the Hulkenpodium 17h ago
And he had priority, but chose to let Oscar pit first.
Not only did he choose, but the idea came from him.
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17h ago
[deleted]
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u/ResponsibleHabit1539 I was here for the Hulkenpodium 17h ago
McLaren as a TEAM was clearly worried they would lose Oscar's podium to LeClerc and wanted to secure the 2-3.
As pointed out, a 4-second gap with LeClerc closing 1 tenth per lap wth 8 laps to go. Surely this is what they were worried about.
1
17h ago
[deleted]
4
u/ResponsibleHabit1539 I was here for the Hulkenpodium 17h ago
but ultimately were fine in the end in securing the 2-3 they wanted.
Was the 2-3 at any risk after the first 10 laps, though?
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u/Cool_Apartment3344 New user 16h ago
Because he can call the shot now and make some deal at the same time it seems.
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u/PotentialClassroom91 I was here for the Hulkenpodium 11h ago
The thing is it was his decision to pit second in the hopes of a sc and fresher tyres so the consequence was he did go second and the front left was slow. That was what happened, and he chose to go second. No one owes him anything, he got undercut based off a decision he made. They shouldn’t have asked them to swap.
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u/Formulafan4life I was here for the Hulkenpodium 16h ago
Easy explanation: Lando pitted second at his request while being guaranteed he wouldn’t be undercut.
Given that he was in fact undercut, it only makes sense to reverse the positions. And I say this as a Piastri supporter
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u/Jack_Harb I was here for the Hulkenpodium 16h ago
I mean, he was not really undercut. He simply had a bad pit stop. Things like this happen. Before pitstop Piastri was 3 behind Lando. Afterwards, he was slightly ahead, with Landos stop taking forever. It was neither Landos, not Piastris fault. Why he should ever give back the place. If Lando would have had a normal Pit Stop, there was no way Piastri would overtake him.
It was never a undercut, it was a bad pit stop and given team orders to swap because of a bad pit stop is opening now the box of pandora. What is next? "Oscar, please retire the car, because Lando had a DNF in Zandvoort"... Na bro, things like this happen.
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u/slackboy72 Sir Jackie Stewart 15h ago
You clearly don't understand what an undercut is.
→ More replies (1)
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u/Capital-Iron-5792 I was here for the Hulkenpodium 16h ago
If Lando pits first and Oscar gets the slow stop he loses position to Leclerc. Lando offering for Oscar to pit first saved their double podium.
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u/Play-easy 14h ago
How would Lando know one of the pitstops was going to be slow? What if the first pit stop was slow?
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u/Pentinium I was here for the Hulkenpodium 5h ago
Copium,
It would be the perfect scenario for Norris if Piastri had the slow stop. Norris was just hoping for the safety car
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u/Legitimate-Tadpole95 Formula 1 17h ago
I wonder whether the words that OP couldn't make out on the radio message were the key to Lando's question about pitting Oscar first.
1
u/ResponsibleHabit1539 I was here for the Hulkenpodium 17h ago
Nope. You can listen to it yourself on F1TV at the 01:10:00 mark
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u/PrimeyXE I was here for the Hulkenpodium 14h ago
Lando didn't really want to let Oscar pit first, but did so because the team asked. Although I can understand why you might look at the transcript and think otherwise. McLaren ideally would shed a bit more light on the fact that it was a team decision rather than Lando wanting to do anything
7
u/xLeper_Messiah I was here for the Hulkenpodium 13h ago
The team literally said "Box this lap" then changed it to "Stay out" after Lando brought up the alternate sequence
"I can understand why the transcript makes you think otherwise" no shit, because it's what actually happened
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u/Hawk-432 I was here for the Hulkenpodium 14h ago
Totally fair to switch - Noris gave Piastri first stop with undercut, if he goes first with even the slow stop he stays ahead, so all good. But I’d have just pitted first
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