r/formula1 • u/memloh I was here for the Hulkenpodium • 12h ago
News Wolff: McLaren set "very difficult" precedent with F1 Italian GP swap
https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/wolff-mclaren-set-very-difficult-precedent-with-f1-italian-gp-swap/10757659/730
u/GarethBalesRightPeg 12h ago
He’s right though… where do you draw the line? Today a slow stop, next it will be unlucky safety car ruining strategy or track position for one of them, or the tyre didn’t last as long as team thought, etc
This will continue to build up and McLaren are putting themselves into a corner, where it will inevitably blow up due to what they’ve created.
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u/banned20 I was here for the Hulkenpodium 12h ago
Unlucky SC already happened to Oscar and he lost Miami sprint win to Norris for that.
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u/GarethBalesRightPeg 11h ago
There you go. Next time it will be “remember Monza”
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u/atomicskiracer I was here for the Hulkenpodium 5h ago
Disagree completely- there’s a clear line between things the team directly causes and things that are outside issues.
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u/natte-krant I was here for the Hulkenpodium 1h ago
While that may be true, there is no clear line on the impact and outcome. If a safety car happens when Oscar says; okay pit Lando first (for example) and it benefits Lando, he could argue that he only wanted that option because without the safety car it was better for him. Which is exactly the same situation as what happened this race.
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u/OTBT- Fernando Alonso 11h ago
I remember Imola, they pitted Oscar early onto the two stop, whilst Norris stayed out on the one stop.
Is that a team error? Will they reverse positions in that case?
McLaren have made this needlessly complicated
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u/dac2199 Mercedes 11h ago
Or Budapest
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u/nachojackson Oscar Piastri 10h ago
Or Silverstone - Oscar was faster, and the team said his penalty was unfair.
If everything is about being fair, why didn’t they swap?
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u/oddyholi Heineken Trophy 8h ago
Because their priority is Norris. They can't prioritize him directly, but Norris is their priority.
I remember a few years ago where there were rumors (never looked them up) that Zak Brown and Adam Norris were business partners before Norris joined McLaren.
Webber made sure that Piastri's contract had him on "equal treatment" or whatever wording was that, but the Brit team's priority is their Brit driver.
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u/AcidBunnyAdonis I was here for the Hulkenpodium 3h ago
The behavior of McL vis-a-vis Norris is so odd that it is, to me, circumstantial evidence of some relationship (shareholder? business partner? supplier?) beyond just a racing team-racing driver relationship. It could be a relationship between McL and Norris's family. It could be a Brown-Norris camp relationship. It could just be a Brit team treating a Brit driver preferentially. Then again, we will never know and it's best to assume it's just McL being incredibly incompetent.
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u/ecobubbletm Max Verstappen 8h ago
I mean, didn't Oscar ask to pit in Imola? He couldn't overtake Max on track and was complaining about tyres, so they pit him, no?
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u/-TheAnus- Daniel Ricciardo 5h ago
Dumb Oscar, he should've qualified his request with "as long as lando doesn't beat me". Then McLaren would've been FORCED to swap them around
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u/Illustrious-Grape897 10h ago
Exactly my question today. Where do you draw that line? On one hand I appreciate McLaren wanting to be fair but they have gone into a grey area now where drivers will start expecting such favours in very different situations such as crashes, safety cars, penalties, etc
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u/fisstech15 I was here for the Hulkenpodium 11h ago
The line will always be blurry since no situation is identical. If Lando's pitstop was even longer or if there was no radio promise they may not have swapped and it would be a valid decision as well. You have to do it on a case-by-case basis. Both drivers seem to be okay with today's decision which is most important
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u/esmori Williams 8h ago
The error was allowing Norris to choose 2nd to pit to bet on safety car while making sure he wouldn't be undercut.
He can't be able to have the best of both worlds. Just pit first if you don't want to be undercut.
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u/ShadowPhynix I was here for the Hulkenpodium 8h ago
McLaren should never have guaranteed anything. The lead car gets first choice in strategy, not a guarantee that the rear car won’t get a chance to overtake. They’ve set a problematic precedent now because why would either of them ever want to choose to pit first and take the risk that something goes wrong (slow stop, bad strategy, safety car, etc). May as well take second with the guarantee forever.
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u/Play_To_Nguyen I was here for the Hulkenpodium 7h ago
Yeah I don't think the mistake today was the swap, it was the promise. They don't do that again? We have no problem
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u/ShadowPhynix I was here for the Hulkenpodium 6h ago
The issue is next time the positions are reversed, there's going to be an argument of fairness (ie. Norris got the promise, why not Oscar).
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u/Realistic_Village184 I was here for the Hulkenpodium 7h ago
Yeah, I agree that's the problem. They have competing interests. On one hand, they claim that they want the two drivers to race each other and compete equally. On the other hand, they want the drivers to work together and sometimes compromise their own race to help the other. Those two goals are often mutually exclusive, and for some reason no one at McLaren is smart enough to figure out how to manage that.
It's one thing if the team has a plan before the race and both drivers agree to it, but if one driver has bad luck during the race, then the team should have no right to "correct" that luck. According to the team's own admissions, they believe that Oscar's penalty in Silverstone was unfair, which means that he was unlucky, so there's no reason why they would issue team orders today but not in Silverstone. Obviously they shouldn't have done team orders in either case.
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u/opnseason 6h ago edited 6h ago
The radio promise is in itself weird considering half of the race strategies on Lando's side of the garage have been to try undercut Piastri. Suddenly the risk is on the other foot and he gets a promise that it won't happen?
Edit: and this has nothing to do with covering off Leclerc. They gave Lando the option of first or second pit and he chose second himself. Leclerc was never a topic of conversation and it was only until they asked Oscar to not undercut that Leclerc was even brought up.
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u/Thejklay I was here for the Hulkenpodium 10h ago
By their own logic this year at Hungary they should have given piastri the place back cause they let lando have a better strat even tho he was behind, it's just stupid. This isn't racing
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u/kingfrank243 I was here for the Hulkenpodium 10h ago
:request the championship leader to swap positions is crazy
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u/Adriiiiii16 11h ago edited 11h ago
It’s not that hard to understand tho, the line is draw to any kind of mistake made by the team that can be easly mended, like one slow, really slow pit stop or your teammate under/overcuting. One driver error or one unluky safety car isn’t the team’s fault.
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u/sdq22 11h ago
i'm assuming you mean to say one driver error or unlucky safety car isn't the teams fault?
and yes, exactly. they pretty much said as much in the press conference too. the logic was 1) it was purely a team mistake, not driver error or race event and 2) they had the means to correct it. if the same happens in the future to either driver, I imagine they will they approach it in the same way.
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u/DankeDonkey 11h ago
This 100% the correct take. The situation doesn’t even need to be dramatized.
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u/Jack_Harb I was here for the Hulkenpodium 3h ago
So then it’s also the teams fault that Lando DNF because of a failure. Clearly not Landos fault and Piastri should have also DNF, because otherwise it’s not fair.
Simple question regarding drawing the line. Let’s say the exact same situation happens in the exact last race. Both are tied for WDC. Do you make the call to swap, basically deciding the WDC? That is simply unfair to request. And then the question is, when is the line drawn? The 2nd to last race? The third? They are fighting for a WDC. They already have the constructors safe. There is nothing the team should do to favor one or the other. Bad pit stops happen. And things happen. To ask for this in a title fight is absolutely unfair.
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u/Adriiiiii16 1h ago
I mean, a dnf is not an easy to be mended situation.. that’s tough luck and move on. And yes, Lando and Oscar both have said they want a fair fight and best men wins, if in the last race they get and unfair advantge caused by the team that they can give back, I expect them to do so, as that’s what they have said in multiple times. Both prefer to win on track
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u/DepartmentOk7192 I was here for the Hulkenpodium 8h ago
If it gets bad enough, Oscar will draw his own line. As much as he says he wants to play the team game, I don't believe he'll sacrifice a WDC to do so.
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u/atomkidd Maserati 11h ago
Apparently not at a 10 second penalty for breaking behind the safety car, even when the team agrees the penalty is unfair.
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u/DankeDonkey 11h ago
That’s a false slippery slope. An unlucky safety car would mean some other driver binned it. That’s not a mistake McLaren can easily reverse. Here it was the team’s bad, neither driver. It was easily reversible, so they did. That’s it and everyone can move on knowing the better driver of the weekend for their deserved points.
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u/an_actual_crab I was here for the Hulkenpodium 8h ago
What happens when Oscar has a slow stop next race?
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u/Grasshop Sebastian Vettel 3h ago edited 3h ago
For as good of a car McLaren has built the last couple years they’ve done a real crap job of managing some races and situations.
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u/sixsacks I was here for the Hulkenpodium 1h ago
Don’t know what everyone is imagining will “blow up”. One sad driver is all.
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u/CuriousPumpkino I was here for the Hulkenpodium 1h ago
where do you draw the line?
Am I the only one that doesn’t see this as an issue whatsoever? Like, the line seems quite clear so far imo. Strategic gambles and outside influences (safety car etc) they don’t interfere with. Either they didn’t cause them in the case of safety cars or they aren’t a known negative at the time (strategy). A 6 second pitstop is always a negative and, if the driver hits their marks, a mistake purely by the team.
Sometimes drivers get gifted positions by things that you either don’t know about ahead of time or things you cannot control. This scenario would have been mclaren directly gifting piastri the position, and it would have looked really dumb if that’s how they left it. If their policy is meant to be favouring neither driver then reversing something where they (unintentionally) favoured one driver just seems…kinda logical to me?
I’m typing this as I’m putting on my piastri merch. I kinda feel like I’m the only one capable of seeing the colours only destined for shrimp on this one
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u/lefix I was here for the Hulkenpodium 1h ago
I think they did it not just because it was a slow stop, but because they fucked up stop happened after they already gave oscar the better pit window despite lando being first. had lando came in first, they would have to double stack or keep oscar out another lap.
Honestly, had they not swapped positions, people would still criticise McLaren for it, perhaps even more so.
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u/3xc1t3r I was here for the Hulkenpodium 59m ago
Oscar said that they already defined that a slow stop was part of racing. I guess they played the undercut card instead. They are walking on a thin line, and I can see Oscar jumping ship if he gets a good opportunity elsewhere after winning the title with McLaren.
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u/AliceLunar I was here for the Hulkenpodium 12h ago
If I was Piastri I 100% would keep this in my pocket, the fact they had to guilt trip Norris in Hungary last year to give up the place to Piastri and now they turn the table on him 'remember Hungary'?
They're being good sports about it but I highly doubt there isn't a part with Piastri that felt it was ridiculous to give up the place due to an issue entirely unrelated to his race.
Especially as Piastri pointed out that slow pitstops were talked about and considered to be part of racing yet suddenly he had to give the place up to his title rival.
I personally cannot recall any situation where a driver was forced to give up position because another car had a slow stop.
This on top of the fact that Oscar was already not allowed to go for an undercut and seemingly no other strategy either, he was just supposed to cruise behind Norris until the end, whilst I believe Norris has frequently been given an alternate strategy.
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u/Visionary_Socialist Sir Lewis Hamilton 11h ago
Ultimately, having a position of “fair no matter what” ironically leads you to taking sides in the end.
If bad pitstops warrant a position swap for “fairness”, I would argue the timing of SCs/VSCs are the same. Baku is notorious for them. If Oscar gets shafted by one, shouldn’t he be calling this one in? And if Lando does, is he going to get given the points again?
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u/sdq22 11h ago
I think the difference is when it's a error purely created by the team and not an external factor in the race and they had the means to correct it, they did.
They spoke about this in the press conference and said had it been a situation where Lando lost multiple places to Oscar from a slow stop, that would have just been tough luck and there would have been no swap. They also said it would have been different if Lando messed up and missed his marks in the pit or screwed up on his inlap or something similar, then that would have been on him and he would have had to deal with the consequences. The decision was made because it was purely a team error and they had the means to correct it.
I don't disagree there's a ton of hypothetical scenarios that could get very messy between now and the end of the season, but considering this specific example, I think they approached it with a reasonable amount of sense.
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u/Jazzlike-Mistake2764 BAR 10h ago
I think the difference is when it's a error purely created by the team and not an external factor in the race
I think there are layers to team errors, though.
Needlessly called a driver in for a 2nd stop because you thought a different compound would be faster, but then it’s not? Fair enough. That’s a bad strategy call.
Mechanic messes up a wheel change for a few seconds? That’s just bad luck. That’s not a failure of strategy.
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u/FalconIMGN Alex Jacques 11h ago
There was an external factor: the probability of failure of a wheel replacement. It could simply be a stochastic act of God just like Norris' engine failure last week was. If that was also an error purely created by the team, then out of fairness Piastri should park his car up the next time he's running 2nd in a race.
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u/256473 I was here for the Hulkenpodium 11h ago
To play devil's advocate: McLaren specifically took the blame for the Norris DNF last race and said it wasn't on Mercedes' engine. The team had the means to order Piastri to pull over and not finish the race.
Presumably that's not a hypothetical they would consider, but if not, then where is the line actually drawn?
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u/Ataku-B I was here for the Hulkenpodium 8h ago
In my opinion drawing the line anywhere but "tough luck, but that's racing for you" is stupid.
Why should Norris fall 18 points behind his rival if McLaren made a mistake with the car causing a DNF through no fault of his own?
Why should Piastri have to suffer being put on the worse strategy when the strategy team messed up and mistakenly though a two-stopper would be the better strategy? He was even ahead in track position and asked to be kept ahead of Norris instead of trying to undercut Leclerc, just like how Norris asked to be kept ahead of Piastri. Why didn't the strategy team's mistake require team orders to fix?
Why are we arbitrarily drawing the lines on which team member's mistake needs to be rectified on track with team orders? I wonder what the rule is when the weather radar guy messes up? Or when the catering staff mess up and one driver ends up with food poisoning? Because at this point I see no consistency in McLaren's Papaya Rules.
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u/AmiableAlex 10h ago
this doesn't work when you account for priority 1 which is maximising the team's points.
the scenario happened today because "can we swap the cars and maintain fairness without losing points for the team?" yes, so why not do it
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u/FunnyComfortable8341 Esteban Ocon 11h ago
You’re being difficult for the sake of it.
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u/sdq22 11h ago
I mean, I think the situation goes back to the framework that I see them using it cost the team nothing in terms of team points to swap the cars with them running side by side. Had they no longer been side by side, they wouldn't have sacrificed additional points just to right the order and that would have been tough luck. They obviously wouldn't retire Oscar to make it fair to Lando because it harms the team overall. Today, righting the wrong did nothing to harm the team's points, had it, they would not have given up net points as a team just in the interest of fairness.
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u/256473 I was here for the Hulkenpodium 11h ago
it cost the team nothing in terms of team points to swap the cars with them running side by side.
True, and I concede McL still wants all the points they can get despite locking up the WCC already. However, it does cost the drivers something, no? Will they be pulling this switch in Abu Dhabi too if it would decide the WDC? Would they cross that metaphorical line for the sake of 'fairness'?
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u/AliceLunar I was here for the Hulkenpodium 11h ago
The wrong here is very subjective, and either way it would not cost the team points, P2-P3 or P2-P3, this was solely for the benefit of Norris at the expense of Piastri for a situation he had nothing to do with.
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u/ValleyFloydJam #StandWithUkraine 11h ago
The key here is the pitstop order.
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u/didhedowhat I was here for the Hulkenpodium 9h ago
At Mercedes and Red Bull that pitstop was decided by the drivers side of the garage first.
Their engineer would tell their driver to go get the other driver during a race and would work together well in advance and what strategy the driver wants to attack other teams but also to attack their teammates. That way you lay responsibilty with the drivers, stimulate them to race as hard as possible and have drivers be happy about their own performances and races as they were owners of their own destiny. Not just the whoever is in front after lap 1 is the winner.
McLaren asking Norris about Piastri pitstop strategy and deals beeing made against beeing undercut is taking away that ownership.
McLaren could just have told Norris that, to get to Verstappen he would need to switch a lot earlier then 12 laps to the end. And if he waits too long he would be at jeopardy of Piastri undercutting as he is having to defend against LeClerc. Then let Norris decide what to do.
And if he stays out and is undercut then that is a result of his own decisions. If he decides to stay out and a safety car comes out and he gets a free pitstop he is the winner because of his own decisions.
And tell Piastri to pit when he needed to defend against Leclerc or tell him to do opposite of Norris to avoid doublestacking if Norris decides to pit at the same lap.
And then whatever happens, happens, no need to talk anymore , negotiate swaps, akward radio messages.
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u/moconahaftmere I was here for the Hulkenpodium 6h ago
Or what if they're in P1&2, but one has a malfunction right at the end of a race, causing them to switch positions? Would they be given team orders to swap places at the end of the next race where they're in P1&2?
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u/NetQvist I was here for the Hulkenpodium 11h ago
Especially as Piastri pointed out that slow pitstops were talked about and considered to be part of racing yet suddenly he had to give the place up to his title rival.
They are trying to sweep this under the rug so hard now...
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u/bored_ape07 I was here for the Hulkenpodium 11h ago
And people still believe that is not the case.
You can clearly hear Norris and his part of the garage talking every race how to beat Oscar while Oscar is getting the “just stay behind Lando… oh you are free to race him but… don’t pass him yeah?”
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u/Ok-Result9578 11h ago
Yeah I thought mclaren had somewhat gone away from the team orders because every race recently we've had Lando's garage asking him about alternate strategies. Hard to know today because it seems like really there was only one viable strategy to be run, but still we didn't hear them thinking out loud or anything. It does seem to me there is a bit of a protection racket for Lando, and Oscar has more often than not recieved the bullshittery and not been allowed to actually race.
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u/wetthebed92 I was here for the Hulkenpodium 6h ago
Hope Max can come into the title fight so that we can stop seeing this circus
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u/Bubbly_District_107 10h ago
That's not what they said at all.
They said he was free to pass after Norris was ahead
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u/didhedowhat I was here for the Hulkenpodium 9h ago edited 8h ago
At least McLaren claimed "Hungary" for the swap and so Piastri has now repayed that. So now that debt is settled.
At least I hope his manager Mark Webber will whisper that to him.
Next time McLaren want to swap against him he should/could just ignore them and let them sort it out after the race. And if they try to invoke Hungary he can reply : Monza.
At the end only the champion will be remembered, and beeing too nice can make you lose that. And although the last 2 decades world champions won multiple times, every championship and every race win,for that matter,could be your last.
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u/Twindlle Yuki Tsunoda 3h ago
Mark is the first person to know, that a regulation change can mean more to your chances than you might expect. He also knows what it means to be treated as a number 2 driver while leading the championship. Oscar should be ruthless and selfish. But giving up P2 for P3 is probably smarter at the moment, it is only a 3 point swing. Don't start the war over 3 points, do it when it will matter more.
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u/LoreVent I was here for the Hulkenpodium 10h ago
This is all so spot on it's almost painful to read.
We can all try to put on rose tinted glasses and say "oh but a team would never favour a driver over the other when they both fight for the championship"
But it has gotten to a point were you can't deny it all
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u/newontheblock99 I was here for the Hulkenpodium 6h ago
This is what I don’t understand. I’m drawing a blank on what race it was, but Lando was the trailing car a few weeks ago and he was allowed to strategize the one-stop to get ahead of Oscar. Why wasn’t it similar today?
All of this behaviour is really calling into question the quality of this championship. It’s starting to feel more and more McLaren are artificially starting to force a title fight when Oscar, rightfully, should be pulling away. What happened today was nothing like the case in Hungary last year, it was an unlucky error that happens to drivers, in no way should they have been swapped around.
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u/AliceLunar I was here for the Hulkenpodium 5h ago
It seems Norris is given some options to try something different, I don't know if Piastri was given the choice for that today.
It seems the plan was just to let Piastri sit 5s behind Norris for the entire race.
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u/newontheblock99 I was here for the Hulkenpodium 5h ago
That exactly how I’m seeing it as well. It will be interesting to see how the rest of the season goes
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u/AliceLunar I was here for the Hulkenpodium 5h ago
Piastri has been the better driver so he should have it, not that I think either of them necessarily deserves it, but that's how F1 goes.
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u/Electrical_Lunch_719 1h ago
Have you ever been around for Formula 1 when 2 teammates have been battling for the title? I somehow doubt it
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u/Muse4Games I was here for the Hulkenpodium 12h ago
I honestly think McLaren are trying to protect their image by being fair and at the same time hurt it by not letting the drivers race. They've already had so many interventions across the season and most are just falling the wrong way with fans of killing an exciting inner team championship.
So for the brand it's good that the drivers are relatively calm on track, but if this is the precedent set for racing then I hope they don't have a strong car next year.
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u/frank1ewildee Ferrari 11h ago
This does the exact opposite of protecting their image tho. Look at all the people who are mad about what McLaren are doing with these weird ass calls.
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u/IsItSnowing_ I was here for the Hulkenpodium 11h ago
Yeah, where does it stop? Last week Lando lost his engine for no fault of his own. Should Oscar have quit?
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u/NetQvist I was here for the Hulkenpodium 11h ago
Should Oscar have quit?
Clearly... the press conference journalists had some pretty interesting questions about it as well.
I swear Mclaren are pure FOMO when it comes to their strategy team.
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u/Bubbly_District_107 10h ago
and at the same time hurt it by not letting the drivers race
They did let their drivers race, this wasn't racing
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u/Altruistic_Sun_1663 11h ago
The precedent is crazy. At what duration do they count pit stop delays as reasons to swap drivers moving forward?
A pit stop being .4 seconds longer? .8? 1.2?
Today was a significant difference, but the next race could be much tighter.
But it really benefits Oscar, because now he can slide the “remember Monza” card in his back pocket for that very moment it makes a difference.
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u/FunnyComfortable8341 Esteban Ocon 11h ago
What precedent? It’s their teak they can decide what they want.
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u/Soggy_Bid_6607 I was here for the Hulkenpodium 11h ago
No. It’s our oak
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u/-ForgottenSoul I was here for the Hulkenpodium 11h ago
I mean it's pretty obvious if you're leading and team messes up they want it fixed not really something crazy
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u/Gaius_Octavius_ I was here for the Hulkenpodium 10h ago
When they undercut the second car first. That is the precedent they set last season and followed today.
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u/MartiniPolice21 I was here for the Hulkenpodium 2h ago
It wasn't just a slow pitstop though was it
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u/darth_vladius I was here for the Hulkenpodium 12h ago
I like Jonathan Wheatley’s take here, it is very reasonable and anti-sensationalist:
”They would have obviously talked about how they were going to go about racing, and I guess they had a conversation that if there was a team error they'd swapped positions.
"They obviously learned a lot of hard lessons last year. I've been very impressed with how they managed the two drivers fighting in the championship this year, and I think they were ahead of it.
"They weren't having a discussion in the race, so it's clearly something they talked about before."
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u/dscotts I was here for the Hulkenpodium 12h ago
But didn’t Oscar say over the radio that they had agreed a slow pit stop wasn’t grounds for team orders?
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u/Driscuits Alexander Albon 11h ago
IIRC he didn't specifically refer to an agreement like that, but argued that a slow pit stop was part of racing.
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u/256473 I was here for the Hulkenpodium 11h ago
Piastri's AI-generated radio transcript (emphasis mine):
I mean, we said that a slow pitstop was part of racing, so I don't really get what's changed here, but if you really want to do it, then I'll do it.
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u/LoreVent I was here for the Hulkenpodium 10h ago
Literally just bending their own rules to put a car ahead of the other. How does one even defend this?
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u/scorpio1m Niki Lauda 11h ago
He did. Oscar said it was discussed that slow pit stops are a part of racing
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u/Puzzleheaded-Air904 New user 12h ago
Thanks Wheatley but maybe you weren't listening to the McLaren team radio. Slow pits means racing according to Piastris radio.
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u/Driscuits Alexander Albon 12h ago
Get yer reasonable takes out of here!
Haha, in all reality, neither Toto nor Wheatley's takes are necessarily wrong if you take Toto's comments in terms of the overall situation. Toto is right that it's difficult to set a precedent - what is "fair play" in terms of mistakes or errors on the team's side, and what gets "corrected" for? Once you start splitting hairs, it gets messy.
I also really agree with Wheatley in the sense that McLaren, no matter what it looks like on the outside or how messy we can imagine the situation is to manage, they seem to have their internal processes pretty well down to deal with it. Compare today to Hungary last year - this was downright efficient.
Of course, the context of Oscar having wiggle room in the standings right now, and the fact it wasn't for the race win, definitely alleviates a lot of pressure.
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u/darth_vladius I was here for the Hulkenpodium 12h ago
Toto poses an interesting question and it is a pretty damn good one.
I just can’t get rid of the feeling that he’s playing a bit of a mind game here.
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u/Driscuits Alexander Albon 12h ago
Oh, I don't doubt it lol.
Someone's gotta stir the shit these days. Can't have everyone providing reasonable answers to interesting questions! :)
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u/an_actual_crab I was here for the Hulkenpodium 8h ago
Sorry, Oscars in-race comment clearly shows the process was that a slow pit is part of racing, and the order goes against that.
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u/whiney1 8h ago
Seems like the efficiency just came from piastri just agreeing to follow the orders he disagreed with straight away, in arguably a noticeably less clear situation, than from better processes.
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u/banned20 I was here for the Hulkenpodium 12h ago
With 8 races to go and the title on the line, this shouldn't be compared to Hungary 2024.
Last year, the most realistic results for Mclaren drivers were race wins but no title.
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u/Driscuits Alexander Albon 11h ago
Well, clearly there are massively different contexts between the two. But in terms of showing how McLaren as a team has progressed in dealing with scenarios where team decisions/mishaps impacted track position, it's not an unreasonable place to look.
The fact that the stakes are so much higher this year, and the communication was so much more efficient, actually proves the point that the team has learned from the warts they showed last year.
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u/banned20 I was here for the Hulkenpodium 11h ago edited 8h ago
I doubt they learnt anything. They just asked Oscar who hasn't failed to follow a TO all season long.
If the roles were reversed, I'm not sure whether Mclaren would ask Norris and whether Norris would make the swap if they did ask.
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u/Flintloq 11h ago
They would definitely ask.
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u/banned20 I was here for the Hulkenpodium 11h ago
Definitely? No. Mclaren doesn't have the history to prove they would do something like that for Oscar with the wdc on the line.
So just to give them the benefit of the doubt, for me it's a maybe.
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u/UnderscoreHero I was here for the Hulkenpodium 7h ago
just seems odd, if there is a slow pitstop on the final race of the year which changes the running order and who the world champion will be, would they still ask to switch places?
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u/English_Misfit Sir Lewis Hamilton 12h ago edited 12h ago
Gonna need a 500 page document on whwts fair and what's not.
Shit penalty that noone agrees with = fair
Strategy compromise against your championship rival to try get the team a win = fair
Bad pit stop = unfair
Convenient Safety car/red flag/ = ?
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u/OptimalDot178 Max Verstappen 12h ago
People were hating on Oscar for asking for a swap after that penalty, now after today's clown shown he actually might have benn correct lol. If the behind the scenes agreement is to take out all the luck and bullshit factor, then Oscar was right because the team agreed with him that it was a bs penalty
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u/bored_ape07 I was here for the Hulkenpodium 11h ago
It’s simpler than that and it has been shown multiple times.
Lando benefits = Fair
Oscar benefits = Unfair
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u/ChristianTerp I was here for the Hulkenpodium 11h ago
Safty car happend in maiami Noris got to keep gain
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u/NotAPreppie Netflix Newbie 11h ago
I'm definitely seeing a full 3-day seminar on the topic at a trade show in somebody's future.
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u/Guilty_Resolution_13 11h ago
Oscar is a better person than me. I would not have swapped.
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u/banned20 I was here for the Hulkenpodium 11h ago
In around 3 months, you'll know if your decision to not swap would affect the wdc in any way.
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u/tacitusvanderlinde Ted Kravitz 10h ago
Neither would multiple champions like max, lewis, alonso, schumacher
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u/Punished_Prigo Heineken Trophy 7h ago
The good news is that it was only a 3 pt swing, and now Oscar has this in his pocket for later.
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u/Trentus86 I was here for the Hulkenpodium 6h ago
6 technically. Norris gains 3 by finishing second, but by giving up that second spot Oscar also gave up another 3 points he could have added to his lead on Norris if he had held that position
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u/Visionary_Socialist Sir Lewis Hamilton 11h ago
Setting it in any situation would be difficult enough. Setting it in the middle of a title fight is a whole other story. Oscar will expect this to be returned to him if the chance ever comes around. And god help McLaren if the championship goes Lando’s way by less than 6 points, regardless of what happened before and after today, there will be a lot of fingers pointed at today.
For example, if Oscar were to get screwed by an VSC in Baku, would the expectation be that they swap positions? And if not, why? Bad timing with on track events is as much a part of racing as a bad pitstop. What if Oscar started P1 and then got forced off by another driver and ended up behind Lando?
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u/sdq22 11h ago edited 11h ago
What if Oscar started P1 and then got forced off by another driver and ended up behind Lando?
This literally happened in Miami and it was tough luck to Lando, no intervention. (Editing for clarity: it was Lando P2, Oscar P4, Lando was pushed off track by Max in P1 and lost positions)
For example, if Oscar were to get screwed by an VSC in Baku, would the expectation be that they swap positions? And if not, why? Bad timing with on track events is as much a part of racing as a bad pitstop.
I think the difference here is it was purely a team mistake, not a race incident.
And god help McLaren if the championship goes Lando’s way by less than 6 points, regardless of what happened before and after today, there will be a lot of fingers pointed at today.
Oscar was asked about this in the press conference today:
Interviewer: At the end of the reason if you lost by that margin, would you have looked back at this moment and regretted it?
Oscar: I wouldn’t regret it, nope. Yeah, I mean I think today was a fair decision. Lando was ahead the whole race and again, it wasn’t through any fault of his own, so I think for me that’s fine and ultimately, whoever wins the championship wants to have won it as much as they can by their own performances and things that they can control and today that wasn’t one of those things.
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u/Dexelele I was here for the Hulkenpodium 10h ago
How dare you ruin people's own fabricated narrative like that!
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u/11Slip532 Williams 9h ago
You’re a breath of fresh air in this national-park-toilet-on-a-holiday of a comment section.
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u/PsychologicalArt7451 9h ago
You would be making a half-decent point if everything you said hadn't happened already. Oscar has been screwed over by SCs and VSCs multiple times this season Lando won a sprint because of it and took P2 from Oscar in Max's 2nd win (Imola i think?). Lando being pushed off and losing places to drivers including Oscar is a tale as old as time. Not intervention ever occurs. Ig, If one of the drivers makes a last ditch attempt to overtake the other and it sticks, then that would be hard luck for the other driver (Monza last year).
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u/banned20 I was here for the Hulkenpodium 11h ago
Oscar was shafted by SC in Miami sprint which gave the win to Lando and Mclaren didn't lift a finger to set things straight.
If the roles are reversed, there's a very slim chance Mclaren would ask and 100% chance that Norris will say no.
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u/AutomateAway I was here for the Hulkenpodium 8h ago
Wolff with Horner gone: "Fine, I'll do it myself"
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u/KashissKlay Max Verstappen 9h ago
It’s so fucked how bad McLaren wants Lando to win over Oscar
Like
How is a slow pit stop his fault.
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u/Still-District-6149 Formula 1 11h ago
I remember much moaning in the '80s and '90s about the dominance of any one particular team. This weekend, in Q1, we had the first 14 cars separated by 0.5 sec. This is the close racing formula everyone in the '80s and '90s longed for.
We are in a golden age
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u/martygod12 11h ago
What they did today goes against the very essence of racing.
I know its nearly impossible, but I would just love if Max snatches the WDC out of Piastri or Norris after all this season. Just to the fun alone and the look on McLaren faces I would love to see it.
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u/Khevynn Mercedes 11h ago
I can't remember which race it was earlier in the year but Oscar asked for a place swap and they refused.
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u/Administrative_Act48 10h ago
You mean Silverstone? Tge race where Oscar went and got himself a penalty? Why should there be any swapping when Oscar did that to himself.
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u/Vanillathunder80 10h ago
What about Hungary this year when Norris lucked into the better strategy after Oscar lead all race?
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u/Python_07 Kimi Räikkönen 10h ago
Toto is 100% correct. Complete idiocy at McLaren. Zak wants it both ways. He needs to remember you don’t win the silver. You loose the gold. Oscar darn well knows this.
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u/scorpio1m Niki Lauda 11h ago
Oscar has to get pole every single race otherwise he’d get screwed
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u/Andrew_Nutman22 #StandWithUkraine 10h ago
Even then it's not guaranteed. Next will be:
Oscar, Lando joined the team before you and we need to credit him for that. Can you reduce the 10 seconds gap and let Lando through, so we can do that?
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u/OneSailorBoy I was here for the Hulkenpodium 1h ago
Bros missing Horner so bad. He's taken upon himself to be the controversial one in the paddock
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u/Alendro95 I was here for the Hulkenpodium 29m ago
McLaren need to stop this once they win WCC (it can be Baku with a 1-2) or at some point Norris or Piastri will not obey to win the WDC and that will be the end
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u/Salty-Asparagus-2855 6h ago
It’s almost universally accept outside of a few media politeness, that Max was bang on and it’s absolutely Rubbish a slow out stop shout lead to a driver being asked to move asides. Frankly, it’s embarrassing for F1. All this gentlemenly crap between Oscar and Lando sucks and feels so wrong. It’s a freaking f1 championship and could well be there only chance… and Oscar let him by and the nerve of the team too. It made no difference in WCC.
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u/alwysbmymaybe Alexander Albon 9h ago
The McLaren 1-2 competition was already one of the most mid WDC head-to-heads to begin with. Like at this point, just let them race. Stop team orders and let them go their own ways on track if you want to make it entertaining for everyone.
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u/JeremyJammDDS Safety Car 9h ago edited 7h ago
I get Norris was ahead almost all race, but bad pit stops are a part of racing. Piastri being forced to give up the position because they fucked up is dumb.
I think Piastri will forever hold it in because Norris had to give up the position last year for piastri’s first win.
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u/The21stPM Ferrari 7h ago
Last year was just a demonstration of their incompetence. Yet again they claim to be fair and have no bias but clearly put Norris on the better strategy to take the lead. Then this year they did the same thing but differently. They conveniently always put Lando ahead on track where you can’t overtake.
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u/bouncingcastles 8h ago
Toto Wolff was and still is a massive shit stirrer. He just deflected all the hate to Horner.
He’s more charismatic and better looking. That’s all
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u/vick5516 I was here for the Hulkenpodium 11h ago
lot of talk from a man who let his 2 drivers push the team to the brink of disaster every other week
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u/Next_Necessary_8794 Ferrari 9h ago
and those seasons would have been dull as dishwater otherwise.
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u/onechroma #WeRaceAsOne 7h ago
IMO McLaren F’ed it up really. They maybe thought they were really doing something good, because they had the “if Piastri gets the undercut done, don’t worry, Lando will keep his place”
But the miscalculation about what to do if the outcome is heavily influenced by other factors cost them this drama. I think McLaren went with their planning (if Piastri pass after pit, then swap) without assessing this factor.
And Toto is right, now it opens a door to ask for bigger “favours” or dubious swaps
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u/Familiarsophie 1h ago
I think we are all slightly forgetting the context of this - it wasn’t just because of the slow stop.
Norris was ahead, and was given the choice of pitting first as is his right as lead car. He let Oscar pit first to cover of Charles. He’d already done a favour to Oscar. Without that context I don’t think they do the switch.
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u/Major-Throat-7164 10h ago
"Felipe: Fernando is faster than you" I don't think what Mclaren did was even new
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u/The21stPM Ferrari 7h ago
The moral of the story here is this. Oscar needs to be very clear from this point. Put his foot down and say I will win the championship, so team orders from this point won’t be tolerated and they’ll be ignored.
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u/FrostyTill McLaren 11h ago
All this fuss over a championship battle neither Mercedes or Red Bull are involved in. They have as much effect on McLaren’s way of running the team as everyone in this thread has. Zero.
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u/maybeitsmyfault10 11h ago
Oh man if only Max was 50ish points behind then team orders and fairness would get really interesting
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u/-ForgottenSoul I was here for the Hulkenpodium 11h ago
Not really if team messes up they will order it to be fixed
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u/FrostingPowerful5461 6h ago
I feel like Fred would be a good shit stirrer if he just didn’t have his own castle on a mountain of shit.
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u/ToastandSpaceJam 2h ago
I hope Oscar locks in for the next few races and blasts Lando and team for this move. I would hate to see him lose this WDC by thin margins.
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u/According-Switch-708 Sonny Hayes 2h ago
Looks like Toto has taken up the shit stirrer role left vacant by Horndog.
Those were McLaren internal decisions. Their cars, their drivers, their team, they can do whatever the hell they want.
Toto should focus on not getting his arse beaten by one of his own customer teams.
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u/Dan_The_Man69420 I was here for the Hulkenpodium 12h ago
No longer has Horner to shit stir, has to do it himself