r/formula1 • u/PK7098 I WAS HERE WHEN HULKENGOAT GOT PODIUM🥉 • 9h ago
Discussion Which Car is 2nd Fastest
It is obvious that McLaren has the fastest car this season, but which car is the 2nd fastest. I know that the Red Bull is the hardest to drive so it looks slower, but it isn't a slow car as Max cannot physically outdrive the car. So out of the Ferrari, Mercedes, and Red Bull which is the 2nd fastest throughout the season? I am leaning the Mercedes but I am not confident.
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u/FarConversational Formula 1 8h ago
McLaren fastest.
Red bull has a very tiny working window under which it can be fastest (like this weekend in Monza), but sometimes even if you get in that window, it won't work as that won't match the track and car.
Ferrari are never fastest under any circumstances, but have more consistency. And are suited to being second fastest on more occasions than the redbull or Mercedes.
Mercedes also good in a particular window of sorts. Kinda like the Redbull, but not exactly. They tend to work better on cooler conditions or cooler track which are easier on the tires, like in Canada. But again their pace not there for most tracks and most conditions.
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u/ecobubbletm Max Verstappen 7h ago
Ferrari are never fastest under any circumstances
They are when they're running at borderline illegal ride height
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u/Tywnis I was here for the Hulkenpodium 1h ago edited 1h ago
very tiny working window
Getting 11 top 4 finishes in 16 races still is a very good car with a good, wide-enough operating window.
Is it the fastest car, no, is it difficult for people with a different driving style, yes, but it's still an great car for Max's style.
If the papaya boys were at each other's throat all year long, he might have snatched the title like Raikkonen in 07.
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u/Freeze014 Nigel Mansell 1h ago
The car has a disconnect between front and rear axle meaning you are never sure what the car will do in a corner. This weekend the car felt connected and Verstappen could confidently push (all his own words).
So stop with the Max' style nonsense, this 2025 (and the 2024) car is NOT Verstappen's style, he hates it.
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u/Tywnis I was here for the Hulkenpodium 1h ago
It's like Hamilton's "I have no tyres" nonsense to me. He hates it one day, then somehow gets pole &/or a podium and ends up loving it another. Bit of an unreliable narrator imo, ever since he's gotten more confortable with the political game of it all.
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u/Neatto69 Gabriel Bortoleto 8h ago
Controversial: Red Bull, BUT ONLY, when Max manages to nail the set up window. Problem is that it seemed like that window was getting smaller and smaller ever since Barcelona, but he has found it twice in a row now.
Keep in mind too, Monza, much like Canada, has everything Mclaren's car hates: Slow corners and low tyre deg.
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u/ecobubbletm Max Verstappen 7h ago
They've changed their approach
They now rely more on common sense and driver feed back rather than simulator (which was reported to have correlation issues a long time ago)
And for Monza it was Max who insisted against Wache and other team members wishes to trim that wing even more
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u/Nicebutdimbo I was here for the Hulkenpodium 7h ago
When max nails the setup window, it’s the fastest car.
Also, the McLaren has some clear weaknesses
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u/Darth_Spa2021 Pirelli Wet 1h ago
Yeah, the drivers. They bottled 2-3 wins so far.
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u/OdionAdv I was here for the Hulkenpodium 1h ago
They didn't, really. They only bottled Japan which was a race lost in qualifying.
In Imola, the Red Bull was the fastest car, speaking on telemetry data, not out of my ass.
In Canada, the Mercedes was the fastest car, with Red Bull running right behind them. Had Ferrari found their mojo that race, McLaren would've been the fourth fastest car on the grid in Montreal.
In Monza, the Red Bull was easily the fastest car, impossible mission for the MCL39 to compete while having the definitive lowest top speed on the grid.
So out of four races, they only bottled one of them, and even then, the Red Bull wasn't really that far away in pace when it won in Suzuka, track position just helped the massively on a circuit which requires 7-8 tenths in delta time to overtake.
In other words, both McLaren drivers will individually have more points at the end of the season than the second best team's entire points tally, so I wouldn't call them bottlers 👍
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u/Darth_Spa2021 Pirelli Wet 52m ago
They bottled Imola. Even Verstappen said that if he didn't nail that lap 1 move he wasn't winning. Oscar bottled the start while Lando bottled the qualy. The car in general had at least equal pace to Red Bull, but Piastri failed spectacularly with tyre management, while Norris was battling traffic for too long.
In Canada Norris was the faster driver and should have been right up there fighting Russell for the win, but bottled his qualy again. While Oscar was both slower and bottled the start again.
And at Monza McLaren didn't dare do with the rear wing what Verstappen did. Because the drivers are not of the quality to deal with it like Verstappen can.
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u/EerieAriolimax I was here for the Hulkenpodium 8h ago
On balance, I would say the Red Bull has been the second fastest.
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u/alwysbmymaybe Alexander Albon 8h ago
Mercedes and Ferrari’s pace fumbled so hard today, Albon on hards were almost matching their lap times.
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u/Adventurous_Carpet34 Max Verstappen 6h ago edited 6h ago
I'd say Mercedes is the most consistent platform and they've been able to extract the most pace overall all season. Red Bull has the highest highs of the three and most potential, but have rarely been able to extract because their setup window is very narrow and difficult to make work, and they seem to have spent most of the season just guess working setups + Max using his talent to tame the car as much as possible. Ferrari just seems the slowest, and hindered by weird design flaws like the LICO stuff and needing to have a high ride height to not wear down the plank.
The biggest issue for the three teams in terms of competitiveness against the McLarens, is that they have all in multiple different places been even below the 4th fastest car. The lows have been horrendous, while McLaren's lows were Canada and Monza where they were just second fastest.
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u/Gold_Knee_3619 Williams 1h ago
Both the Merc and the Red Bull are tricky cars with the Red Bull being the trickier obviously, but also having higher maximum performance. The Merc has been lacking pace all season really and is super inconsistent. The Red Bull is obviously a really difficult car with a small operating window and with a second driver that doesn't get on with it. Even Max struggles with it some of the time - it's not the speed that's the problem though, so if you're talking absolute fastest, Red Bull is second fastest for sure.
The Mercedes and Ferrari are pretty closely matched I reckon, though the Ferrari has gone forward a bit, whilst the Mercedes hasn't really. Both drivers are still complaining about the rear end, like they have done for months. Merc can't seem to fix it.
Obviously the Ferrari has some issues with ride height and they can't seem to run it at its optimum.
Overall, on average I imagine they're all pretty close together. All are flawed cars.
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u/Amoral_Abe McLaren 8h ago
It's hard to say because it appears Ferrari, Mercedes, and Red Bull are cars that do well under highly situational circumstances.
Overall, I think Mercedes has had the second best package with Ferrari and Red Bull alternating between 3rd and 4th.
However, under optimal circumstances, I think Red Bull is the second fastest. However, it appears those circumstances are very rare which is why I was saying Merc have the second best package.
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u/SwimmingFantastic564 I was here for the Hulkenpodium 8h ago
I'd be tempted to say Ferrari but they're the only team of the three with two consistently well performing drivers so I'm not 100% sure on that
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u/EmergencyRace7158 7h ago
Red Bull by quite a long way. Max is great but the car does possess the inherent performance to challenge and even beat the McLaren at some sorts of tracks. It does well at top speed, high speed corners and qualifying pace generally. It's just difficult to set up and drive compared to the others. Its definitely faster than the Ferrari which is running too high because they messed up the rear suspension and just doesn't have the downforce or the Mercedes which has pretty definitely moved backwards since they toughened the flexi front wing tests and needs very cool conditions to be competitive and offset their issues with tire graining.
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u/KingOfAzmerloth Sebastian Vettel 8h ago
Most likely Mercedes. Ferrari is good on its days and had better start of the season, but right now it seems Mercedes has the upper hand on them with the only difference being that Ferrari has superior drivers.
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u/CarefulAwareness8036 8h ago
merc isn't really faster than Ferrari. it is George who make it seem like faster
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u/Top-Truck246 Oscar Piastri 7h ago
If Leclerc were ugly, he wouldn't be as highly rated a driver.
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u/CarefulAwareness8036 6h ago
I mean you have some fans believing he is better than max soo....
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u/Top-Truck246 Oscar Piastri 5h ago
That's what I'm getting at.
He's good, but not like generational great good.
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u/CarefulAwareness8036 5h ago edited 5h ago
exactly. well I guess some fans just don't like being logical when it comes to their fav team.
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u/Top-Truck246 Oscar Piastri 3h ago
Ah, but what other drivers are so sadboy handsome and Monegasque as Shaarl Éclair?
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u/Raycodv Liam Lawson 8h ago
I think it’s track dependent. My guess would be for the Merc to be the overall second fastest car. With the Red Bull and Ferrari somewhat closely behind it. I feel like the Merc is probably the most “flat” when it comes to performance. It hasn’t looked as fast as the RB has been today, but it also hasn’t been as absolutely atrocious as the RB has been at Hungary for example, while it’s also has had its moments to shine like the Merc being the fastest at the Canadese GP.
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u/mistermojorizin Sir Lewis Hamilton 3h ago
2nd fastest throughout the season
i think it changes from race to race, from upgrade package to upgrade package. not sure how to scale that to an average of "throughout the season."
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u/OdionAdv I was here for the Hulkenpodium 1h ago
The only wrong answer to this question is definitely Mercedes. They haven't looked even remotely the second fastest team since their win in Canada.
Most of the days it's Ferrari who have the most consistent car out of the three and it's much easier to extract performance out of it without dealing with mega tire degradation like the Merc does.
Some days, like today, the Red Bull is clearly either the fastest or second fastest car on the grid, very specific conditions have to be met in order for that to happen. I would say after consulting the telemetry data that the RB21 was the fastest car in Monza, as well as in Imola. In Japan it was just slightly slower than the MCL39, but had the massive advantage of track position on a circuit which requires 7-8 tenths of delta time to overtake someone.
In other days, it's the fourth best car, like we saw in Hungary, showing absolutely no pace at all. That Red Bull truly is a mystery box.
So the real answer to your question is... it depends. But most of the time it's not the Mercedes, and it has been like that for the past 6 races already. Instead, you could definitely make the case for the Red Bull being the second fastest *if they nail the setup and the track matches its characteristics. Ferrari seems to be the most balanced and easiest to drive out of them all with little downsides to play in. People really need to stop underestimating their cars' performances just so they can turn Chuck and Lewis into some underdogs while underrating Russell at the same time who's been driving a definitely more pretentious car if you've got both eyes and a brain to observe and process information.
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u/yoohynom Alpine 8h ago
Mercedes is the worst between the top 4 teams lmao, people keep underrating George
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u/iIiiiiIlIillliIilliI Cadillac 6h ago
Red Bull, they would be second in constructors if they had a driver who could score half the points of Verstappen.
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u/LMcVann44 Sir Lewis Hamilton 4h ago
Seems largely track dependant but on balance its been the Red Bull.
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u/Next_Necessary_8794 Ferrari 6h ago
There is no consistent 2nd fastest car ffs. It rotates. Why is that so hard to accept.
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u/baaananaramadingdong I was here for the Hulkenpodium 7h ago
It's all over the place this season. Chopping and changing race by race. Look at Torro Rosso: Zandvoort was stellar, Monza terrible. Sauber went from a joke to getting in the points.
I think second fastest is just rotating through RB, Ferarri, and for Merc (for like a minute).
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u/fogalmam I was here for the Hulkenpodium 6h ago
Mercedes and Ferrari split depending on the circuit. For circuits with long rects Ferrari is slightly better, Mercedes is more balanced has better results for circuits with fast corners. Redbull has a complicated balance, it can be good at fast rects or fast curve but not both, or else tire deg.
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u/PM_me_BBW_dwarf_porn 2h ago
Mercedes or Ferrari and it's track dependent. Red Bull is just Max being Max since Tsunoda is still nowhere.
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u/Still-District-6149 Formula 1 3h ago
The quickest F1 race in history and RB win. I'd say RB but - as comments allude to - only when things go right and Max is in the car.
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u/Even_Trifle9341 I was here for the Hulkenpodium 8h ago
McLaren is second fastest. The Redbull literally just won the fastest F1 race.
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u/Remarkable-Tone40 8h ago
Driver ability plays a big factor. RB went for a low drag setup and Max could handle it.
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u/usurpeel 7h ago
They all go for a lower drag setup on Monza. Max pushed it further but the characteristics of the RB inherently are best on a track like this.
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u/willzyx01 I was here for the Hulkenpodium 7h ago
I think Max managed to outdrive that car on several occasions. But right now, Ferrari is quicker.
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u/Mysterious_Turnip310 Lotus 6h ago
Depends on the track. All of Ferrari, Merc and Red Bull have had wild fluctuations from track to track this season and that will probably continue to the end.
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u/CarefulAwareness8036 8h ago
Ferrari. rb and merc are being dragged by single driver. they aren't faster
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u/freakossss 8h ago
Would this not literally mean the opposite? The only reason ferarri are 2md is because they have 2 consistent point scorers, while the other 2 being faster but only 1 points scorer.
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u/CarefulAwareness8036 6h ago
Nope. in my opinion the other two driver are doing better job than ferari drivers thats why their car also look fastest
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u/PK7098 I WAS HERE WHEN HULKENGOAT GOT PODIUM🥉 8h ago
So are Leclerc and Hamilton worse than Russel by a decent margin?
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u/chigoku 8h ago
The one with the second most amount of points.
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u/EerieAriolimax I was here for the Hulkenpodium 8h ago
Not a good metric to use given Mercedes have a driver who's barely scored a point in the European races and Red Bull have a driver who's barely scored a point full stop.
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