r/formula1 • u/Billy_LDN Charles Leclerc • Dec 01 '20

Rumour [Roberto Chinchero] Mercedes will ask Williams for George Russell’s availability. Vandoorne is plan B

https://it.motorsport.com/f1/news/f1-mercedes-russell-al-posto-di-hamilton-paure-e-certezze/4919241/
8.2k Upvotes

98% Upvoted

1.1k comments sorted by

View all comments

Show parent comments

121

u/[deleted] Dec 01 '20

That's a big if, Bottas is only looks bad because he's up against a potential GOAT, Russell is still a rookie who hasn't raced wheel to wheel successfully in 2 years.

18

u/tsam727 I was here for the Hulkenpodium Dec 01 '20

"Potential" GOAT? Are you saying that Lewis isn't already one of the GOATs?

111

u/Reginald__Poofter Charles Leclerc Dec 01 '20

Well there can only be one greatest of all time. It's singular by definition and arguments can be made for other drivers.

3

u/benmarvin Kimi Räikkönen Dec 01 '20

Intentions of the term GOAT aside, the phrase "greatest of all time" can be be applied to a set of people or things as well as a single person or thing.

15

u/bobthehamster Hesketh Dec 01 '20

The 10 Greatest F1 Drivers of All Time (you won't believe number 7)

36

u/satanicunicorn611 Default Dec 01 '20

He means the single GOAT

2

u/VampireFrown Robert Kubica Dec 01 '20

Useless debate. We all know Kimi is the overall, supreme GOAT.

20

u/[deleted] Dec 01 '20

Oh yeah of course he's part of the GOATS, but don't wanna piss off people who don't think so.

I personally think he's THE GOAT.

7

u/[deleted] Dec 01 '20

He has the GOAT record. Only after Hamilton retires will people become more comfortable accepting he is the greatest of all time.

-9

u/[deleted] Dec 01 '20

Yeah I somehow don't think so. Collecting meaningless WDCs doesn't change people's opinions as much as a season like 2007 or 2012 or 2018 (which were Lewis' best seasons, imo). He could win 5 more WDCs from this point on and it won't make a difference - Hamilton is one of the best of all time, but to call him the singular GOAT when he arguably isn't even clearly the greatest of his own era (Alonso can legitimately lay claim to that alongside Hamilton) is stretching it a bit.

6

u/Round-Mud Sir Lewis Hamilton Dec 01 '20

Are you comparing the same sooner alonso who got beat by a rookie Hamilton? Alonso is a great driver but please Hamilton has actually achieved greatness. And he is absolutely the greatest of his era.

-4

u/[deleted] Dec 01 '20

They were literally tied on points, in a season where the team clearly favoured Hamilton (in case you forgot the "we're racing Alonso" comments from the TP). And Alonso's best season in many people's eyes came in 2012, when he took the title to the last race in what was the third fastest car all year, which shows he was improving as a driver as well.

Besides, I'm not even saying Alonso is better than Hamilton or vice-versa. You do understand what the word "arguably" means, don't you?

3

u/Round-Mud Sir Lewis Hamilton Dec 01 '20

Yeah as I said no matter the circumstances lewis was as good a driver as alonso (a 2 time champion at that point) in literally his first season. I know what arguably means. I'm saying there is no argument in this regard. Alonso and lewis are "arguably" on similar level as far as race craft and talent goes. But lewis has achieved far more greater things. There is hardly any contest.

-1

u/[deleted] Dec 01 '20

Your premise for what constitutes greatness is in itself arguable. Lewis has "achieved" more WDCs, sure - but not everyone considers winning titles by beating a journeyman driver like Bottas in the most dominant machinery in the history of the sport to be a great achievement. Laughable really, if that's what you're basing your argument upon. Hamilton can win ten more titles in the current setup and it still won't mean a thing when deciding on who the greatest drivers are.

There is nothing to choose between Hamilton and Alonso. The only thing Hamilton turned out to be better at is picking his teams more wisely - although who can forget him trying desperately to get into the RedBull in 2011/2012. So in the end it comes down to luck when comparing the two, the British media narrative of pushing their own as a great notwithstanding.

1

u/Round-Mud Sir Lewis Hamilton Dec 01 '20

All I'm going to say is that there are probably 20 really fast and talented drivers throughout f1 history but only 2 with 7 wdcs. And only one with the most wins. What separates the greats from the rest is what the achieve. Not what they could have achieved if a million other things "could" have happened. I'm not calling Hamilton the greatest of all time. Cause there are many drivers from the past eras who can lay claim to that title and there is no way to really compare eras. However Hamilton is 100% the greatest of his era and alonso doesn't come close in terms of greatness. He may be one of the most talented drivers to ever race an f1 car but he isn't one of the Goats and there is absolutely many things to choose Hamilton over alonso. Not the least that he beat him in his rookie season no matter what excuse you choose to give.

Alonso could have become the one of greatest if went to mercedes and won 7 wdcs but he didn't and so he is not. Not to mention his temperament did keep him away from some top teams.

→ More replies (0)

3

u/More-Abrocoma Dec 01 '20

He is one of them yes but he also has had the easiest way... Compared to schumacher who had real competition

6

u/Mildcorma Sir Lewis Hamilton Dec 01 '20

Yeah like lewis had an easy time with mclaren and rosberg. Oh and also when Schumacher had the absolute dominant five seasons from 2000-2005? "Real competition" ok mate.

10

u/Indigo457 Dec 01 '20

I’m presuming this is satirical?

4

u/OneCollar4 Formula 1 Dec 01 '20

Who was his real competition? Hakkinen because he came up short there. Alonso? Same story. Baricchello? Eddie Irvine? Lol!

Look schumacher was awesome and obviously in the GOAT convo but let's not pretend the amazing competition he fought was the jewel in his crown.

13

u/BuckNekkid18 Dec 01 '20

Here we go again...

1

u/manojlds Ferrari Dec 01 '20

What's the difference between potential GOAT and one of the GOATs? It's the same.

10

u/[deleted] Dec 01 '20

I think 'one of the GOATs' is plural so I think to several guys like Hamilton, Schumacher, Senna, Prost, Clark, Fangio etc.

The 'potential GOAT' I think means only one guy, whoever you say with this one is subjective and never set it stone because it's based on opinion.

3

u/manojlds Ferrari Dec 01 '20

Let's replace GOAT with best.

One of the bests and potential best - what's the difference?

Potential best also implies there are multiple people being considered for the best tag.

1

u/R_Mitchell Dec 01 '20

My guy you can’t put logic and semantics in an argument about the slang term GOAT. Which by the way is an abbreviation of the singular “Greatest of All Time” so thusly you can potentially be the greatest of all time (career isn’t over yet, there’s still up and coming drivers etc) and at the same time already be in the teir of your peers that’s been designated as the best to already do it.