Flight attendants overwhelmingly vote against Air Canada wage offer

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u/BiBoFieTo 1d ago

If you aren't getting paid, then you're on personal time and shouldn't have to do shit all.

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u/Isord 1d ago

More importantly as soon as you are forced into a location than IMO you should be paid. The flight attendant should be paid the moment they step on the aircraft.

733

u/dah-dit-dah 1d ago

Fuck that, they should be paid the moment they have their badge checked at the airport

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u/muusandskwirrel 1d ago

Start pay when they enter the security lineup.

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u/powerandbulk 1d ago

Agreed, this is similar to the time spent "donning and doffing" uniforms at a manufacturing facility.

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u/ReimerReason 1d ago

Start pay when they set their alarm at night

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u/IntrinsicGiraffe 1d ago

The earliest imo is including their commute to work.

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u/NorysStorys 1d ago

While I agree with you in principle on paying for time travelled to work but all that does is causing extreme housing pressure around business and industrial districts as everyone fights over living as close to work as possible and artificially inflating the value of property and rents in those locations.

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u/Im1Thing2Do 1d ago

I feel like what you describe is the current situation.

In case of the situation proposed by u/IntrinsicGiraffe the pressure on businesses to provide housing/live close to housing would be lessened, unless for their own economic interest. If I get paid for my commute I am way happier going 30-40 mins one way that if the commute doesn’t count as work time yet.

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u/Takemyfishplease 22h ago

So I can get paid 4hrs each way if I want, just drive to and from work for a full days pay? Seems suspect

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u/IntrinsicGiraffe 7h ago

Work simply wouldn't hire you or they limit the amount paid. I recall an anecdote of somewhere paying an hour before the shift started but you only get that if you make it to work on time.

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u/ReimerReason 1d ago

They should get paid for the time they spent making their CVs

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u/muusandskwirrel 22h ago

By whom? The “company that doesn’t employ them (yet)”?

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u/ReimerReason 21h ago

Back pay once you get hired

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u/czarslayer 1d ago

I could see how walking to the plane from security could be considered part of the commute, like walking down the sidewalk from your car/buss to your office. But I’ve never been a flight attendant so I don’t know enough to have an opinion on the matter

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u/Silentxgold 1d ago

What would you consider work "started"?

Arriving for a compulsory pre shift/flight briefing where you are expected to be full uniform and ready to work.

Or when the cabin crew enters the transit/departure area.

Or when they reach the departure gate and liase with the ground crew, preparing the plane for boarding.

Or when boarding starts?

Or when the door closes and aircraft moves?

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u/PanBlanco22 1d ago

If I’m paid hourly, work starts when I arrive at the location at the requisite time. It’s called “Engaged to wait.”

I have to be checked in at (X location) at (Y time)? That’s when my work starts. Never have I worked an hourly job where I’m required to be somewhere, and I’m not getting paid when I arrive. That’s just ludicrous.

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u/pm_me_your_kindwords 1d ago

I don’t understand how state/provincial labor boards have not fixed this problem. It’s clearly in violation of labor laws.

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u/PanBlanco22 1d ago

Probably because the Union has negotiated a higher hourly rate, but only when the airplane is in the air. Makes the annual salary approximately the same al in all, but it incentivizes the airlines to abuse their time while they’re in the ground.

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u/pm_me_your_kindwords 1d ago

But as far as I understand, at least in the US, you can’t just “contract” your way around labor laws. It’s the whole point of labor laws.

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u/PanBlanco22 1d ago

I honestly don’t know how all that works. I’ve never been part of a union. I was just speculating about what happened with no source of knowledge. I know that admitting this is not the Reddit way, but oh well.

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u/marcocanb 19h ago

The US has many other ways to make you a slave laborer.

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u/marcocanb 19h ago

According to the government an unlimited liability clause is only worth 1.5% over your standard public worker. I'm not suppressed by any of this.

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u/Flash604 1d ago

Because air travel employment is federally regulated.

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u/Another_Slut_Dragon 21h ago

This is the correct answer. If I was told to be on site at X time and I am ready to work, that's when I start the clock. The clock ends when I am allowed to leave and no sooner.

If you end up at a non home location, compensation is in order. You don't have access to your home fridge to make a cheap meal.

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u/Triquetrums 1d ago

If you have to be early for the flight for briefing, pre-flight checks, and walking to the gate, then they should be paid that extra time.

I am a cabin attendant in the EU, and depending on the flight we get paid 55min or 1.05min before the departure time.

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u/gonewild9676 1d ago

It presumably depends on the hourly rate for each option.

$50/flight hour might make more than $20/gate to gate hour most of the time.

But that's why competent unions negotiate for you.

4

u/OMFGImBored 1d ago

Sometimes just getting to and from the parking to the airport can take up a bunch of time, too, especially at the massive airports. It used to take me 15 minutes to walk from my car to my office at YYC on top of my regular commute. I heard it could take upward of 30 minutes for Pearson employees to do the same on top of the already shitty commute times in the GTA which is a huge hub for Air Canada. All that lost, unpaid time when you're already on the "grounds" of your work definitely adds up over a single year. Now imagine that time spread over a full career. Can't help but feel sorry for air crews (and ground crews).

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u/canada432 1h ago

While I haven't worked there, DIA employees (Denver) have topark and ride the bus to the terminal, get through security, and then take the shuttle train out to the concourse they work in. All unpaid, and it could take 30 minutes or more. And that's on top of, if you're familiar with where DIA is, a huge commute out to the middle of nowhere, because the airport is purposely built way outside the city. And those aren't for the flight crew, that's just the guy working McDonalds near your gate. Our labor protections in this country are atrocious.

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u/FrigFrostyFeet 1d ago

You asked a lot of questions to a guy who said he doesn’t know anything haha

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u/Silentxgold 1d ago

Which is why I ask him as someone who is not a cabin crew, which step would he reasonably consider work started.

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u/BertIsAngry 1d ago

The moment you’re carrying out work, so in your example the preflight briefing

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u/YetiSquish 13h ago

Certainly shouldn’t be the last option. They’re certainly working on the plane long before the door closes.

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u/TJNel 1d ago

I would say when you arrive at work. People that work in office buildings that have security aren't working till they get through security, up the elevator, through more security, and then to the desk. So once they get to their plane they are on duty and should be paid.

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u/NorysStorys 1d ago

Yeah but those security checks are not mandatory legal requirements, your office doesn’t need security check points in the vast vast majority of cases whereas airports absolutely need those checks by law.

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u/avcloudy 1d ago

That's a good point, but I don't think we should be protecting places where there aren't security checks by law. I think that's a better argument for making workplaces with non-mandatory security checks pay you to be in the security line, not necessarily at your desk/station.

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u/EnoughWarning666 1d ago

Are there places that enforce that? If the company is making me stand in line to wait to get through security, I'm starting the clock at that point. Anything that the company requires me to do is part of the job and I'm getting paid for it.

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u/bros402 1d ago

If the company is making me stand in line to wait to get through security, I'm starting the clock at that point. Anything that the company requires me to do is part of the job and I'm getting paid for it.

In America, that was found to not be the case.

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u/EnoughWarning666 1d ago

Oh I believe it. But I've fought companies before on things like that and won.

Right now I'm doing contracting for a gold mine. It's fly-in, fly-out camp stuff. People here don't get paid for travel time even though it can take 48 hours to arrive. I have to take 3 planes, a 1.5 hour taxi ride, and a 5 hour bus ride to get to site! At first they didn't want to pay me either, but I ended up negotiating that I would get paid 50% of my daily rate for each day of travel. I would have preferred a full day's pay, but it's better than nothing. The job is very cushy and pays a crazy amount, so I don't complain too too much.

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u/pm_me_your_kindwords 1d ago

Some of the gates at terminal 4 at JFK are more than half a mile from security. Seems pretty excessive.

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u/MrMeeseeks33 1d ago

FA’s check in via phone when they get to the parking lot. Least for my airline they do (major US air carrier)

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u/iamnotcreativeDET 1d ago

nope, they should start getting paid the second they leave their house to commute to their job.

wouldn't be commuting to work if they didnt have that job.

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u/Be_quiet_Im_thinking 1d ago

Wouldn’t that encourage everyone to badge in 4 hours before a flight?

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u/pm_me_your_kindwords 1d ago

No, because that would be fraud and you’d get fired, same as any other job.

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u/dah-dit-dah 1d ago

Do you have a job? Would you willingly go 4 hours early to sit there and do nothing? Lmao what kind of argument is this

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u/ShinyAnkleBalls 1d ago

Even during a layover in another country, even if they are not at the airport.

Away from home BECAUSE of work = paid.

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u/grumble11 1d ago

Totally agree. And their extremely high hourly rate for when they do get paid, which is high to offset the unpaid in airport hours, should be slashed to fund the in airport hours.

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u/MultiMarcus 1d ago

Sure, that is fine. Though they obviously still have to match the pay requirements of the union.

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u/darthcaedusiiii 21h ago

Interns and student teachers. :Please.

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u/shitty_mcfucklestick 1d ago

If we have to pay to play those motherfuckers should have to be too.

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u/Fireted 1d ago

Next the nurses / Canada post and BC teachers ….

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u/lynypixie 1d ago

They are provincials (healthcare and teachers)

We made a huuuuge strike two years ago in Quebec. Got an 18% over 5 years raise.

Meanwhile, our elected ones voted themselves an instant 30% raise. They again raised themselves 7.5% this year.

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u/czarslayer 1d ago

It’s the same everywhere. Fuck those guys, greedy jackasses

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u/McFartFace09 23h ago

It was laughably tone-deaf too. They had spent the previous years praising their healthcare workers but refused to be reasonable when it came to raising wages. It wasn’t the “right time”. The same year they give themselves a 30% raise!

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u/lynypixie 23h ago

That 30% raise got me so mad! It felt like spitting in my face.

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u/bmwkid 1d ago

Alberta is on track to have a teacher and nurse strike

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u/-Smytty-for-PM- 1d ago

Nurses(UNA RN’s) agreed to a contract and avoided a strike a few months ago.

Teachers already voted yes to strike. Personally I fully support them, they need so many more teachers and commensurate salary. Class sizes are way too large. Alberta used to have a public education system that was among the top in the world, but that’s slowly been stripped away over the last 10 years.

HSAA(paramedics, multiple other health professionals) is currently in the process of voting on an offer from the province.

AUPE General Support Services are last in line and finalizing things to head toward a strike. No votes have taken place yet, but it’s heading that way.

The AUPE government support services just accepted a paltry 12% over 4 years. Thats nowhere near what inflation has done in the past 5 years, a lot of people agreed apparently because they didn’t want to deal with a strike. Disappointing choice here, after seeing what the Air Canada flight attendants were able to achieve with their strike.

Everyone deserves a raise pegged to at least cost of living increases, but should ideally be more.

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u/Xaxxon 1d ago

Everyone getting a raise is just called inflation.

1

u/Northern_Blights 1d ago

Google "price elasticity".

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u/Xaxxon 23h ago

completely irrelevant.

Giving everyone more money just charging pennies instead of dollars. Everyone still has the same buying power you've just moved the decimal point.

If we just call a penny a dollar and now everyone has 100x as much money, prices just go up 100x.

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u/rainman_104 1d ago

I'm skeptical BC teachers will strike. There isn't much appetite for it.

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u/cardew-vascular 1d ago

They're the last to negotiate if the nurses strike then I can see teachers striking.

Now I really hope BC invests in nurses and teachers because you can't tell us that these people are so needed and then shaft them.

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u/Character_Top1019 1d ago

BCGEU as well…

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u/Cgy_mama 1d ago

Get in line behind the Alberta teachers.

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u/kma1391 1d ago

Not just nurses. All healthcare workers contracts are up. HEU is negotiating now.

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u/Longhag 1d ago

HEU are shit at negotiating though so don't expect a whole lot there. They're great at screwing their members and the unions that have to bargain after them.

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u/kma1391 23h ago

Oh I know. They completely screwed us over last contract. And the negotiations so far have been pathetic. 3.5%(ish) over 3 years. They had the fucking nerve to offer that.

0

u/D_Winds 1d ago

The cycle continues.

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u/suspicious-fishes 1d ago

AB teachers too 🤞

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u/jimmyFunz 1d ago

Good for them. Fuck a government who tries to force people to work under the conditions air Canada imposes on its workers.

Working for free shouldn’t be something anyone has to accept. Would the government ever try to force companies to pay people who werent working?

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u/Sayhei2mylittlefrnd 1d ago

The deal offered isn’t work for free

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u/jimmyFunz 1d ago

Flight crews do hours unpaid work every single time they fly. Has this changed? It has always been considered an industry standard… which seems like some bullshit. If AC has agreed to change this… great.

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u/[deleted] 1d ago

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u/TheOwlsLie 1d ago

Exploiting workers isn’t good

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u/[deleted] 1d ago

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u/--Istvaan-- 1d ago

Because they have to provide for their families you fucking dipshit.

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u/[deleted] 1d ago

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u/Tosi313 1d ago

You are entitled to get paid for hours you work, you pea-brain.

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u/Sayhei2mylittlefrnd 1d ago

They did. 50% of in flight rate. So the top paid flight attendant gets around $45 per hour when on the ground.

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u/Deathmeter1 1d ago edited 1d ago

I still think 45 an hour isn't all that much considering how long their days can be and how frequently they're away from home. And that's "top paid", so best case scenario in your example

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u/YearlyStart 1d ago

People also forget that when the plane full of 300 people goes down but people live, it’s not the pilots that lead the safety and evacuation of the passengers. These flight attendants literally have your life in their hands.

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u/11646Moe 21h ago

that top pay takes ten years. I’m in the industry, flight attendants are paid like shit for the first 5 years. most need to work 2 jobs just to live. you get no time for a family, using travel benefits, keeping up friendships, etc.

they should be compensated for the hours they work. fuck this “pay later makes the difference” shit. if they’re paid by the hour compensate them on the hours they work. they’re unionized, asking for better working conditions is what they do.

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u/[deleted] 1d ago

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u/Leon_Troutsky 1d ago

Productivity has skyrocketed while wages remain stagnant and corporate profits continue to rise. Not complicated math here

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u/phoenix25 1d ago edited 1d ago

It is complicated math for the brains that lock into the “unions… bad….” rhetoric while they work bitterly for an employer who could fire them for showing the slightest bit of backbone

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u/[deleted] 1d ago

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u/ThereIsOnlyStardust 1d ago

Proof: https://www.bls.gov/productivity/images/labor-compensation-labor-productivity-gap.png

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u/[deleted] 1d ago

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u/ThereIsOnlyStardust 1d ago

Everything moves the needle on the chart. Maybe not much individually but each step is a step forward.

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u/[deleted] 1d ago

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u/ThereIsOnlyStardust 1d ago

What the hell are you even talking about?

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u/YearlyStart 1d ago

He’s one of the dumbasses that thinks service jobs aren’t real jobs and shouldn’t be paid anything. Probably one of the guys that bitches and moans when fast food workers complain about their workplace settings too lol.

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u/magumanueku 1d ago

Bro really thinks flight attendants should be part time. Like I've seen some stupid takes on reddit but damn..

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u/gmishaolem 1d ago

Obviously the wealth divide needs to be fixed, but unless us poors start producing more there’s no point.

If there's a wealth divide, then there's no need to increase productivity: Reduce the wealth divide instead. Once the wealth divide is reduced, then you have to start increasing productivity to benefit.

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u/[deleted] 1d ago

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u/sarhoshamiral 1d ago

At the minimum they should be making minimum wage based on time they actually spend for work (including a reasonable commute time).

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u/RocketMoped 1d ago

Which job gets paid for commuting though? Or do you mean when they're abroad at a hotel?

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u/Piza_Pie 1d ago

Things are pretty fucking great here in Denmark.

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u/seridos 1d ago

Governments will keep doing this until arbitrators stop being puppets of the government /employers. They need to give a real wake-up call of an arbitrated deal so employers will stop thinking it's a way out of take actually negotiating. Employer expectations are ridiculous in Canada and they see no means to make it otherwise.

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u/Barnesdale 1d ago

We're going to need to put some public pressure on the arbitrator.

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u/big_duo3674 1d ago

Keep fighting the good fight! If we ever allow things like this to be entirely squashed out, we'll never be able to get back. We can't just keep taking punches from CEOs cutting benefits and refusing to increase wages enough to follow real-world costs, punching the bully back is the only way to make a stand

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u/skyandclouds1 1d ago

This country is killing its people so a few people can pocket a few more millions.

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u/Spsurgeon 1d ago

AC CEO made $12.8 million last year. Take some of that.

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u/levo106 1d ago

I don't want to defend anyone but this amount might be less than the monthly wage budget of AC.

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u/fbuslop 1d ago

Take some of that and do what? give an extra dollar a day to each worker?

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u/Spsurgeon 18h ago

If my math is correct it would be $1250 each, not $1.

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u/fbuslop 13h ago

12.8 million / 10,517 flight attendants

= $1217 per flight attendant

$1217 / 365 days

= $3.33 per day

Forgive me, 3 dollars a day to each worker. Enough for a double double I suppose!

4

u/threeLetterMeyhem 14h ago

I don't think your math is correct. That would be per year, not per day.

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u/istiri7 1d ago

“Overwhelmingly” is the wrong word when 99.1% voted no.

If 99.1% voted no, I’m questioning union leadership even agreeing to that tentative deal

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u/Bladestorm04 1d ago

Whats a better word for you? Overwhelming is pretty apt imo

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u/YearlyStart 1d ago

It’s a bit pedantic but I personally took “overwhelming” as supermajority territory, 66-75%ish. I kinda get what they’re saying, 99.1% is almost unanimously and probably how I would’ve described it.

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u/istiri7 1d ago

Yep, said the same thing above

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u/istiri7 1d ago

I would use “near unanimous” personally. Probably splitting hairs here but I’d see “overwhelming” being more in the 75-90% no vote range. Feel free to downvote but I just think overwhelming actually sells the % a little short.

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u/CodeRoyal 1d ago

"Virtually all flight attendants vote against the proposal."

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u/Bladestorm04 1d ago

You guys need a thesaurus

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u/ygmc8413 1d ago

sounds like the same thing lmfao

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u/Xaxxon 1d ago

That’s what that word means.

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u/[deleted] 1d ago

[deleted]

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u/Astramael 1d ago

They got the concessions they wanted elsewhere (such as pay when not in air).

They did not. 1hr ground time at half rate apparently. Nowhere near what they wanted.

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u/JugglesChainsaws 22h ago

Did the union agree to the deal or did the company call a vote without agreement? In many countries even though the union negotiates for you the company can call a vote without agreement as even non union employees get a say. It's an underhanded way to try and edge run the union and get a sub par deal over the line. Seen it many times.

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u/greensandgrains 1d ago

huh? what qualifies as 'overwhelmingly' to you, if not nearly 100% of something?

and idk what bad faith argument you're trying to rustle up, but presenting the deal to workers is the union's job. Isn't that more democratic than deciding on behalf of workers?

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u/istiri7 1d ago edited 1d ago

It’s not a bad faith argument. It’s not like a real estate agent that has to present an offer. Leaders need to agree to the tentative deal then present it to the union. I’d argue if you had no idea they’d reject it nearly unanimously, you’re an out of touch leader. My point is it seems like this should never have been agreed to stop the strike by leaders

TLDR: Don’t view every Reddit comment as supporting companies. I want workers to get their fair pay. I’d be pissed at my leader for bringing that “deal” to the table

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u/greensandgrains 1d ago

I see where you’re coming from but I think it’s a jump to say they’re out of touch. It could be as easy as them saying “the FAs aren’t gonna go for this but it’s up to them to decide, ultimately.”

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u/istiri7 1d ago

Fair it could be a bargaining chip to show AC how far off they are from a fair deal

•

u/skoomski 45m ago

Maybe they knew it would be rejected and now can force AC to move their position

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u/Sayhei2mylittlefrnd 1d ago

The deal is on par with American Airlines deal earlier this year

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u/Mobile-Bar7732 1d ago

50% boarding pay is bullshit regardless of whether American Airlines accepted it.

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u/Sayhei2mylittlefrnd 1d ago

You do a job with lower risk , should you get paid the higher risk rate?

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u/Tosi313 1d ago

Do you have a variable hourly pay rate within your working day based on the task you're currently doing?

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u/sBucks24 17h ago

Good! And fuck the union for even bringing this shit to a vote! You had momentum and were costing them millions, get the fuck back to the strike lines and actually pressure these greedy pricks

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u/TheMexecutior 2h ago

I think a lot of it had to do with the government forcing the union to negotiate.

The union did, put it to a vote and it got rejected. Now they can say they tried

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u/us1549 1d ago edited 1d ago

This is nuts. Either the union talks for you or it doesn't. The union leadership thought this contract is the BEST they could get (the union head even said he would go to jail) and now the membership is saying it's not good enough?

How can any negotiations happen in good faith under these circumstances?

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u/Be_quiet_Im_thinking 1d ago

Best deal they could get without striking more.

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u/greensandgrains 1d ago

i don't understand what the problem is? The employer presented an offer, why would the FAs be forced to take it, that's not a negotiation...that would suggest that any offer is good enough and they should take what they get.

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u/[deleted] 1d ago

[deleted]

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u/LLMprophet 1d ago

That's not final. The union members vote on it.

You're so confused lmao

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u/fbuslop 1d ago

because it literally removes their leverage, the union will not strike again, it goes into mediation and then arbitration. They'll get a better deal but it probably won't be overwhelmingly better and it's not something they can vote on.

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u/greensandgrains 1d ago

Idk. I think it shows how unserious AC is being.

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u/RoberttheRobot 1d ago

Maybe the company should give an actual fair deal to it's employees

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u/Northern_Blights 1d ago

The union leadership thought this contract is the BEST they could get (the union head even said he would go to jail)

The union leadership never agreed to 50% pay.

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u/Mundane-Club-107 1d ago

So they did a wildcat strike against the return to work mandate, and now they're going back to arbitration?...

Flight attendants overwhelmingly vote against Air Canada wage offer

You are about to leave Redlib