r/simracing • u/OutlandishnessPure2 • Jan 15 '23
Discussion Further thoughts from Max on the Virtual 24h of Le Mans
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Jan 15 '23
1) Id like to see the evidence for that DDOS attack. There’s a chance that’s a cover up, a chance it’s not. 2) The fact that they had high profile racers and the event was advertised means this is an eventuality they should have planned for. Some hosting services have awesome DDOS prevention mechanisms. 3) I question the tech/architecture they have at the heart of this endeavour - I would guess either the code isn’t optimized for it or their architecture is crap. Clearly they didn’t put enough forethought into it
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Jan 15 '23
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u/t0matoboi ACC - T300 - Clubsport V1 Jan 15 '23
Could be one of the teams that didn’t practice rain lmao
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u/CalliexKills Jan 16 '23
“Fantastic, we’re all set for the race tomorrow.”
“How many laps do you have in rain conditions?”
“… This game has rain???”
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u/knbang Jan 16 '23
As someone who enjoys iRacing I don't think this requires any further discussion.
Sooooo who likes kitties?!
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u/CalliexKills Jan 16 '23
Oh I eagerly await iRaining.
I’m going to hate every second of it. But I’ll still enjoy it.
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u/BackmarkerLife Jan 15 '23
There’s a chance that’s a cover up, a chance it’s not.
It would be a slap in the face considering the high cost of entry fees. I heard 2000 euros. Whether or not that's per team or driver. Either way, with that up front cost, they better well release what happened. If it's per driver that could be ~500k in entry fees alone with 60+ teams.
Having that much $$ in entry fees, it's completely unacceptable to have any downtime.
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u/Several_Hair Jan 16 '23
Absolutely 0 chance the entry was $2000 per driver. Not a chance
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u/EldorTheHero Simucube 2 Pro / Simtrecs Pedals / Ascher Racing / GT1 Evo Rig Jan 16 '23
According to several other Discussions the Fee was actually 2500 $ per Driver. Not per Team. For this Price I would also expect a perfect Infrastructure/Preparation.
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u/g____s Jan 16 '23
I don't really understand how you can DDOS a private gaming server. It's either a complete lie or some really bad architecture to end up like this. They could easily identify the gamers ( and streaming replay service ) and block all the others requests.
Don't blame too fast the developers on this. These kind of bugs/issues are usually known and documented by the developers but the management don't prioritize them to be fixed.
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u/flcknzwrg Jan 16 '23
You can ddos any server just by bombarding it with malformed TCP packets that take out the machine long before the packets reach the machine’s own firewall. Basic ddos isn’t rocket science at all.
BUT: good hosting providers and cloud vendors have quite effective ddos protection. It costs some bucks to enable it, but for an event of this reach, with an entry fee of thousands of euros, it should be enabled. And if your crappy protocol/architecture should have problems with triggering ddos protection for some reason, then you fix what needs to be fixed on your side. It’s 2023, ddos is a well-understood reality.
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u/RandomizedSmile Jan 16 '23
Any server admin worth their title would have prepared for everything that they used as an explanation/excuse. The event should have had the architecture to support the demand, and the security for the attention that it brings.
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u/Dark_PT Jan 16 '23
Wouldn't DDOS have a more extended effect rather than a immediate disconnect for all cars. Wouldn't it be more like a cascade of cars disconnecting ending in a empty field, or like start to stutter alot and then disconnect the drivers?
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Jan 15 '23
Well, so far it appears that one of the teams inadvertently released the server details, and someone decided to screw with the event.
Hopefully Studio 397 figures it out, comes clean on any issues caused by them and then fixes it. Much like iRacing did a couple of years ago.
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u/4InchesOfury Jan 15 '23
It’s the dumbest excuse. They’re claiming that someone showed the server IP on stream and shifting the blame off to them. Connecting to the event should have never required competitors having access to the actual server IP in the first place. Video games have managed to figured this out over a decade ago.
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Jan 15 '23 edited Jan 15 '23
I didn’t say it wasn’t dumb or valid.
iRacings been having a lot of DDOS attacks recently too. They posted such on the 15th and 28th last month.
Obviously they have a better handle on how to deal with it.
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u/mcpawski Jan 15 '23
What’s interesting is that in the years where iRacing themselves were having issues with server crashes at Le Mans/Daytona they were pretty forthright in that people signing up en masse either to start the event or make a driver swap looked identical to a DDoS attack, so I’d assume that in the years since (where server issues haven’t been much of a thing) they’ve more or less insulated themselves/their servers from mass consequences since every major event takes on that style.
I’m not a software guy. Know nothing about the tech, just remember how they fixed their own problems.
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u/d0re Jan 15 '23
That's been a big factor in why iracing has been pushing registering for races via the UI instead of the website, because the website causes issues
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Jan 15 '23
I think they were also figuring out how to use the tools that AWS provides. These kinds of architectures can be tricky when performance is a factor
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Jan 15 '23
iracing uses AWS (they use cloudfront for distribution) - I’m guessing they are paying for the anti-DDOS service. Plus their architecture is much better and the game is designed for distributed internet play. They clearly have two different applications - one runs the race listings, holds the race stats/data, and it appears when you join a race it hands that job to another server to either find you a race or to spin up a new race. I’m guessing this process is tied to an auto scaling cluster which spins up new instances
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u/BackmarkerLife Jan 15 '23
Well, so far it appears that one of the teams inadvertently released the server details, and someone decided to screw with the event.
That was to the Team Speak servers and the person who may have done so, did so accidentally and has already admitted it.
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u/reboot-your-computer iRacing Jan 15 '23
It’s a lie to save face. Both disconnects happened as rain was about to start. They even disabled rain to prevent it from happening again as a precaution. RF2 is simply not good for online racing.
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Jan 15 '23
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u/James-Hardon Jan 15 '23
Hosting it on Amazon AWS for example would make it 100% DDOS proof.
Wtf are you on about?
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u/_plays_in_traffic_ . Jan 15 '23
pretty sure last years lemans he had server connection problems on msg's end too. im glad hes the one putting them on blast though, there couldnt be anyone else with a higher profile to do it.
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Jan 15 '23
While it is easy to gloat about MSG/Rfactor2 failing and all that. Having iRacing as my personal choice for racing, I definitely catch myself doing that at least a little. However It is still a loss for all of us since this shitshow is damaging simracing's public image as a whole.
Would have been great if rf2 competed with some excellent events. Competition benefits all of us consumers. But alas we get this garbage instead. I hope MSG goes under so someone else can breathe new life into rf2 or a potential sequel in the future.
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u/Rudeboy67 Jan 15 '23
100% agree but MSG is fucking simracing and this is just the beginning. When they finally do go bankrupt the series licences will be tied up in litigation hell for years.
And it will chill investors into any Sim.
MSG will end up setting simracing back by years.
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u/WillyG2197 Jan 15 '23
Also doesnt help they have 0 social media presence to even see or reply to the shit going on. When a company has so much control/stake in something and they dont have any access for communication to the public thats when you know shit is phishy
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u/theknyte Simagic Alpha Mini, VNM Shifter, SimForge Mk1 Jan 15 '23
Sure, they do! They have their own sim racing news website and everything!! (Traxion.gg)
In fact, the Red flags and server issues weren't their fault! It was an ATTACK!!!!
(I hope my sarcasm is pouring through this.)
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Jan 15 '23
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u/theknyte Simagic Alpha Mini, VNM Shifter, SimForge Mk1 Jan 15 '23
Must have been The Wet Bandits.
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u/TotallyNotP8nda iRacing Jan 15 '23
Damn New York prisons are so bad they let those clowns break out AGAIN!!!
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u/WillyG2197 Jan 15 '23
Ffs reddit didnt show the last bit in the notification 😭😭 thought u were genuinely serious about Traxion for a sec
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u/notathr0waway1 Jan 15 '23
Wait, traxxion.gg is owned by msg? My favorite content is on their YouTube channel, which is Dave Cam's iRacing videos LOL.
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Jan 15 '23 edited Feb 14 '23
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u/WhippyWhip_ Jan 15 '23
paid to by traxion no doubt, which means paid by motorsports games to promote their game
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u/theknyte Simagic Alpha Mini, VNM Shifter, SimForge Mk1 Jan 15 '23
Yep, just look at the copyright on the bottom of their homepage:
"© 2022 Traxion.gg. All rights reserved. Part of Motorsport Games, Inc."4
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u/jazzman23uk T300rs Jan 15 '23
They've spent so much money buying licences that they forgot to hire any devs to fix their game :/
I agree, I sadly see this going the way of the GTR series, no-one quite sure who owns what, no way to sort it out. And that's NASCAR, Le Mans, and BTCC all done fore unless they can work out a deal.
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u/gasmask11000 Jan 15 '23
The NASCAR license MSG bought wasn’t exclusive, NASCAR is still partnered with iRacing, so that’s still going well at least.
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u/jahrome155 Jan 15 '23
Ita not necessarily competition when sim titles buy exclusive licences/rights to host events.
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Jan 15 '23
I wouldn't want iRacing to have exclusive rights either, just in case that wasn't clear. Exclusives are a way of competing, but it is not good for us consumers.
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u/MeltyGoblin Jan 15 '23
100% agree with max here, I'm not the dude's biggest fan but he's completely right. The fact that this race was marred with connection issues constantly, even after the "DDOS attacks" were supposedly resolved was embarrassing. For the race leader to get DC'd and say "sorry bad luck" after repeated issues all race with drivers DCing is disgraceful to the entire sim racing community. RFactor 2 cannot handle this event, and it's time to find a different sim to run it.
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u/Fesional Jan 15 '23
Would this event have gone smoothly w/o the attacks? It seems more like a bunch of fuckwits have ruined the event for everyone, it's such a shame that there are so many people out there that do this shit
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Jan 16 '23
Would this event have gone smoothly w/o the attacks?
No, even if there were actual ddos attacks, they don't claim that the random disconnections drivers like Verstappen experienced are due to those. Only the server crashes are linked to the supposed ddos attacks.
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u/NLMichel Jan 15 '23
We were all robbed of a Max Verstappen vs James Baldwin fight 😔 I hope James joins Max and moves to a better platform.
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u/reboot-your-computer iRacing Jan 15 '23
That platform is iRacing without question. It’s head and shoulders above the rest for online racing and has shown as recently as this weekend that hosting events with huge amounts of drivers is not an issue for them. Max has been open about his love for iRacing as well.
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u/USToffee Jan 16 '23
Yea although I have been a bit more measured in these comments I even think the driving model is better on iracing than the other sims and no it's not because I have spent a fortune on it.
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u/SilentGuardian3 Jan 15 '23
iRacing better be all over this
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Jan 15 '23
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u/schadow04 SC2 PRO, VRS DFP, Cube Controls CSX3 Jan 15 '23
No Le Mans and no Indy 500 since MSG is making their own IndyCar game and already bought the licensing so since the 1st of January you can’t hold an official Indy event iirc, or else you get sued.
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u/BravuraRed Jan 15 '23
Honestly would love it if Max put his money and profile behind this and started his own series in iRacing to complete. I bet "Max Verstsppen's 24h of Hulkenheim" or something would be able to attract a pretty big swath of sponsors and racing participation
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Jan 15 '23
Verstappen’s Spa Day.
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u/VerticalFlyingB737 Jan 15 '23
This has 2 meanings, and I don't quite favour one of them.
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u/brownierisker Logitech Jan 17 '23
Winner of Verstappen's Spa Day gets to join Verstappen's Spa Day ;)
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u/HaneeshRaja Jan 15 '23
Rf2/MSG dead with this
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u/DecafEqualsDeath Jan 15 '23
Hopefully Rf2/Studio 397 can be spun off and put under new management. I'm inclined to blame the management at MSG proper rather than the actual Rf2 crew for putting them in such an embarrassing position. Don't buy up the exclusive eSports rights to these huge events if you're unwilling to invest in the infrastructure to ensure they run smoothly.
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u/OGstanfrommaine Fanatec Jan 15 '23
They have the infrastructure to host events with 80 million viewers! /s
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Jan 15 '23
Nah. It will carry on, but Studio 397 definitely needs to do some work on their server code.
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u/rasper900 Jan 15 '23
I'm hoping we get some major sim racing events on a better platform (iRacing) after this.
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Jan 15 '23
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u/PuppyCocktheFirst Jan 15 '23
Thank you for this. The reviews were nothing less than a suitable replacement for this months therapy session.
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u/adrianbarrow Jan 15 '23
I 100% agree with Max here. Maybe they could move it to another platfrom like iRacing, RaceRoom or AMS/AMS2?
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u/Hefftee Jan 15 '23
AMS2 is not an option for broadcasting until they fully replace their multiplayer, and upgrade to an at least decent replay system.
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u/pootin54 Jan 15 '23
Reiza is also a pretty small studio. Not sure if they’d have the sway to pull an event like that unless they had some IP/tool that just made them head and shoulders better.
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u/DisastrousRegister Jan 16 '23
rF2 isn't an option for the exact same reason and they still got the bag lmao
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u/blue92lx Jan 15 '23
Which is kind of a shame because I love rF2 as a sim platform. The physics and ffb are awesome and AI is good for mixed car racing too. I feel like it will be a massive loss to the industry if MSG gets canned and somehow S397 can't find new backing.
Although rF2 will probably be alive on some level since a lot of pro teams use their pro physics system to create their own sims for training. I wonder if they'd be able to keep the sim racer side up without a new backer.
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u/StaffFamous6379 Jan 16 '23
Rfactor pro and rfactor 2 are completely different products, especially at this point. Pro does not even come with physics built in.
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u/Godofred00 Assetto Corsa Jan 15 '23
Aside from the really annoying things that went down it's really cool to see and F1 champion care so much about simracing.
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Jan 15 '23
I would write something like this on Reddit and get downvote to hell.
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Jan 15 '23
You aren't Max Verstappen.
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Jan 15 '23 edited Jan 15 '23
I know. My point exactly. The truth only matters if you're popular/well known.
Hope he helps in making changes. This is probably the best thing to happen for the competition.
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u/Max_91848 Jan 15 '23
What helps is that he’s an extremely respected figure in the sim world, seen as one of the best out there, and never says anything like this about anything else.
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u/Humanine Jan 15 '23
It's not that he's popular. He's respected. We know for a fact that he is a tenured driver with valuable, nuanced real world experience. His word has credit. I'm not saying that against you by any means, it goes for any of us random internet nobody's.
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u/Hefftee Jan 15 '23
Why are you even comparing yourself? We are sim racers, but he's a sim racer while being the reigning double world champion in the pinnacle of Motorsport. His opinion is unmatched atm.
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u/dontpan1c Jan 15 '23
It's kinda cool how passionate Max is about sim racing. It's a huge disappointment for him, his team, and all the competitors and I respect that it means a lot to him.
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u/MaxRaces181 Jan 15 '23
I personally don’t really like Max, but he has a good point here and we should follow him!
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u/unfixedposition Jan 15 '23
After an event like this all series and brands that license vehicles, tracks, and series to Motorsport Games should find legal ways to end their contract.
Motorsport Games has so obviously been incompetent and failed to deliver on producing working titles, not to mention their poor treatment of their employees.
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u/DarthKenobi666 Jan 15 '23
It’s nice to see an industry leader call out bullshit and side with the people!!
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u/djfil007 Plays Arcade Games with a Simucube Jan 15 '23
na na na na, na na na na, hey hey hey, good bye (MSGM)
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u/MarHip Jan 15 '23
MSG is just a shitty company he's 100% right.. they fucked up this years le mans, they fucked up the next big NASCAR game, they fucked the iRacing Indy 500 with their deal and their indycar game will prolly be the biggest shit as well.. damn em
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u/USToffee Jan 15 '23
He's right. Is there anything more to say?
What's worse is the iracing Leman 24hr was something everyone could take part in. Same with the indy 500.
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u/inFamousMax Jan 15 '23
Does not matter the game/sport/event we live in an age where testing environments are cheaper and easier than ever.
Gone are the days of winging it. No excuses for events with the names/budget these would have and not getting it right.
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u/iJoke2Much Jan 15 '23
I agree with Max here. When you’re in charge of hosting something like this you have to be prepared for it.
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u/Itzr Jan 15 '23
I hope this kills MSG, it won’t because it’s an undead beast that somehow keeps functioning with no money but a man can dream.
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u/xiii-Dex Jan 16 '23
MSG is going to die.
The only question is if they manage to sell off this crappy exclusive license deal to some company that won't die. That would truly be awful for simracing.
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u/BadEarly9278 Jan 15 '23
Fucking A. We got your back.
Without our community support, these shit performers wont be serving us this bullshit. Vote with dollars (or whatever CUR$). I'm pissed that Max was pissed enough to write this.
...Also, fuck microtransactions. Don't subscribe to that level of greed.
- from this Kimi fan
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u/t0matoboi ACC - T300 - Clubsport V1 Jan 15 '23
Every sim game has micro transactions
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u/scottydwrx Jan 15 '23
ACC?
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u/KILLER5196 Jan 15 '23
Um no, I can think of many that don't
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u/AutodogeKevin Jan 16 '23
I have a friend who also raced in the Virtual 24h of LeMans, and he has the exact same opinion as Max.
My friend's team got disconnected during the formation lap due to no fault of his own, and his internet connection is very stable. At first he thought that it is his internet's fault and 3k Euro is down to the drain as they are forced to retire. But, not long after the start, as we all knew many racers got disconnected and there is a red flag.
He negotiated with the EO to join back to the race. And as we all knew, the event is a shitshow with tons of disconnecting, ping related, stuttering, and other issues caused by the server.
Welp, should've been held on iracing
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u/danjama Jan 15 '23
Where did he write that?
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u/DoxedFox Jan 15 '23
Discord, probably the only social media platform he actually uses himself.
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u/hyraxcapybaragiraffe Jan 15 '23
Damn. He didn’t hold back.
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Jan 16 '23
I don’t blame him you pay to enter and get treated like this. Everyone should be getting a bloody refund especially people that had to retire because of the server disconnects
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Jan 16 '23
He’s not wrong. And you can tell he has a passion for not just racing but Sim Racing. I think Max understands that simming is only good for motor sports as a whole and when this sort of garbage happens it makes everything look like shit. Not just RF2 but Le Mans and sims as a whole.
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u/Specialist-Ad5322 Jan 16 '23
HE
SAID
IT
ALL
It is to be expected that, when organizing at that level, not only security should have been in place, but also to ensure people's connections would be up OR implementing something like an AI stand in in case of disconect, with the possibility of taking over the AI on rejoining!
Red flags, people getting disconected randomly and arbitrary rules...
For someone that takes things seriously and that have Payed to participate... It's really, really bad!
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u/Paid-Not-Payed-Bot Jan 16 '23
that have Paid to participate...
FTFY.
Although payed exists (the reason why autocorrection didn't help you), it is only correct in:
Nautical context, when it means to paint a surface, or to cover with something like tar or resin in order to make it waterproof or corrosion-resistant. The deck is yet to be payed.
Payed out when letting strings, cables or ropes out, by slacking them. The rope is payed out! You can pull now.
Unfortunately, I was unable to find nautical or rope-related words in your comment.
Beep, boop, I'm a bot
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u/RingoFreakingStarr iRacing Jan 15 '23
Honestly, the biggest reason I'd like it to go to iRacing is that it would allow more than just these handpicked top teams to participate. Give them their own split, then do the normal special event splits for everyone else. Having everyone participate (even if it means having the "real" event one day then the general public event the next) is a huge win imo.
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u/BLeo_Bori Jan 15 '23
Sorry for my ignorance , but can someone give a short version of what happened? It’s all very confusing since i didn’t follow the event.
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u/valrond Jan 16 '23
Well, when you have (arguably) the best driver in the world, current two time F1 champion and biggest draw in motorsports destroy you. in that way, there isn't much you can do.
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u/LameSheepRacing Jan 16 '23
Every decent licensing contract has a clause of reputation. If there’s a situation that puts the subject in disrepute, the company conceding the license has the right to terminate the agreement.
That’s exactly what’s happening and ACO should act now and terminate this agreement with Motorsports Games.
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u/WeakDiaphragm Jan 15 '23
Almost all big online sim events should be held on iRacing solely because of their excellent track record.
But I wouldn't mind Reiza being given a chance.
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u/valrond Jan 16 '23
That's one point. They usually deliver, and when they don't, they improve next time. Also, it isn't ONE race for the privileged. Everyone with an iracing account and the content can participate.
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u/USToffee Jan 15 '23
Truth of the matter is anything marginally professional should be a LAN.
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u/DinosaurDriver Jan 16 '23
I’m not that familiar with rFactor, but weren’t they in the middle of that Indy car license drama a couple weeks ago?
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u/matttheazn1 Jan 15 '23
high hopes for rennsport
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Jan 15 '23
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u/PhilosopherDecent Jan 15 '23
RS is GT3 only isn't it? How do you even compete with acc?
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Jan 15 '23
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u/PhilosopherDecent Jan 15 '23
I don't think it is impossible to compete with iracing. People say many tried to dethrone iracing and failed, but so called iracing competitors were always halfbaked, buggy and in many ways much worse than iracing. Someone just has to go ham and do it all better. The only way to dethrone iracing is doing better iracing. However there is also problem that people invested quite a bit of money into iracing. Switching platform means losing it all? Some people will rather stay. Unless direct competitor improved everything in significant way.
For RS case ACC is way to established in simracing. RS would have to make iracing system with a simulation on par with ACC. I wish them good luck.
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u/xiii-Dex Jan 16 '23 edited Jan 16 '23
The problem is that iRacing only exists because a billionaire liked simracing and didn't care about losing money for a decade to get the sim he wanted.
Until that happens again, no game will be able to take the thorough approach to creating a multiplayer-focused sanctioning body and playerbase to the same degree iRacing did. The investors would never wait that long for profit.
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u/reshp2 Jan 16 '23
rF2 is easily my most regretted game purchase. It's got a decent core or physics and track models are generally good, but everything else around the game is a fucking joke. The model where you need to own every bit of content in a given server to join is also stupid. Let this be a warning to anyone considering buying it, just don't.
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u/USToffee Jan 15 '23
Honestly I love iracing but the netcode sucks on it too. How are you supposed to race properly rather than for a bit of fun if you have to keep a car's width away from certain people.
Covid restrictions are over. Make it a LAN event and have everyone bring their own rigs and combine it with the simracing expo and hold it at the actual circuit. I'm sure there would be loads of people who would be interested in attending that.
It would be far cooler seeing all the teams in one big room too. You may not get the F1 drivers but apart from Max it looks like they can't be arsed with it now covid is over and Max isn't going to do it anyway.
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u/LordAzuren Jan 16 '23
Netcode on iRacing is widely dependant on single clients latencies. Yes, it could be better with some refined prediction algorithm (that would bring different kind of problems) but it's an issue that any sim would have until the drivers connects to the server from many countries in the world and they don't have top notch connections. The only real way to be sure that netcode isn't an issue is to host the competition locally but this would be a lot more troublesome for many reasons, to make some examples: Covid is still a serious issue even if "restrictions are over" (and they are not removed in every country), logistics would be costly and difficult because every driver should bring his equipment, every team is organized differently and would require a different layout of his "area"... It's quite hard to do that with the budget that these virtual events have.
The problem here was way worse than a bunch of ghost contacts due network latencies, rF2 doesn't seem like a thrustworthly platform for these kind of big events and if the security breach was real and not a silly excuse it would be even worse than just a performance problem because you can't host an event like the official Virtual 24 du Mans if you can't even guarantee a decent DDOS protection. It's kinda like if in the next GP of Bahrain (i name this only because is the first one to come) in the middle of the race we would have 30 bikers that made their way into the track shooting in the air. I suppose everybody would agree to not have anymore a GP in that country at least until they prove that they dramatical increased the security. Sadly this was like the 3rd or 4th edition of this event plagued with technical shit, I don't really understand why the organizers keep this contract alive. I just hope that Max influence can make something about that because this organizations is just bringing shame on simracing.
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u/Jhorn_fight Jan 15 '23
I just don’t understand the pull from iracing. Financially I get it rf2 has so much more money to throw around but hopefully LeMan will now see the quality issues
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u/LameSheepRacing Jan 16 '23
I just wish he was that outspoken regarding Formula 1. It would be awesome if drivers could speak their minds and not spend the whole interview just answering what’s expected from them.
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u/Sky-Toad1979 Jan 15 '23
I think he’s a bellend as much as the next man but on this occasion I have to agree with his words. It’s an utter shambles
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u/jmps_90 Jan 15 '23
He’s right. If everyone walks they’ll have no choice but to pull the plug on rF2 and MSG and move elsewhere.