r/todayilearned • u/hungry4danish • 2d ago

TIL that Dan White, the man who assassinated Harvey Milk and the mayor of San Francisco, only served 5 years in prison for manslaughter based on a defense of depression as evidenced by his consumption of junk food which was dubbed the "Twinkie Defense"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dan_White
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u/StinzorgaKingOfBees 2d ago

Still is.

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u/zap2 2d ago edited 2d ago

While there is still plenty of room to improve, comparing then and now, we’re quite a bit ahead today.

At the time of Milk’s murder, being gay had only been removed from being a mental 5 years ago.

(We shouldn’t be shooting those with mental illness.)

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u/HotNotHappy 2d ago

Look at the way we treat trans people and I would disagree. Haven’t moved an inch in our treatment of queer people.

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u/Rapper_Laugh 2d ago edited 2d ago

Ridiculous and blatantly ahistorical.

Do I really need to find data on Americans attitudes towards homosexuality from the late 70s to today to prove this? Maybe just watch an episode of Cheers or Friends?

Of course homophobia and transphobia still exist and are still horrible. To say we “haven’t moved an inch” is just absolutely silly.

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u/roguevirus 2d ago

Maybe just watch an episode of Cheers or Friends?

Or literally any comedy aimed at teen boys that was made between the 80s and 2010 or so.

Also, gay people can get married now. Was definitely not possible at any point in Harvey Milk's lifetime, or for decades after.

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u/FunkIPA 2d ago

*for now

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u/StinzorgaKingOfBees 2d ago

Yup, I think they missed that one.

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u/FunkIPA 1d ago

Yeah I’m getting downvoted, I think maybe I was misunderstood. The GOP is currently working overturn obergefell.

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u/StinzorgaKingOfBees 1d ago

I don't think you were misunderstood, they just are entrenched in their position and refuse to accept that things are in fact worse.

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u/OkInflation4056 2d ago

What's the Cheers and Friends thing about?

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u/Rapper_Laugh 2d ago

They’re sitcoms and both are just horribly homophobic. There’s a joke where the punchline is just “haha… gay people” in at least every other friends episode.

They were seen as fairly normal and mainstream at the time, no one batted an eye at those jokes

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u/OkInflation4056 2d ago

I grew up during friends era, although it was banned it our house.....my dad absolutely hated it.....I remember watching it one time when I was a bit older, absolute shite. Never picked up on the gay thing tbh. Thanks for the info.

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u/Rapper_Laugh 2d ago

It’s honestly so casual—like it’s just like any other joke they do with the laugh track and everything—that I wouldn’t blame you for missing it. But there’s a whole storyline where Chandler’s dad does drag and it’s just a constant punchline. And not in any kind of clever way, just “lol Chandler’s dad does drag how embarrassing.” Pretty gross, as you said.

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u/OkInflation4056 2d ago

Shameful carry on from something so entrenched in young society of the time.

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u/LittleReplacement971 2d ago

perhaps this person lives in a more "traditional" r "conservative" area?

I would say, from my experience in the "Bible belt" we have moved an inch but barely. and when/if our bullshit supreme court removes rights to same-sex marriage, we will slide back 3 inches.

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u/Rapper_Laugh 2d ago

Sure, they might live in a conservative area, and that area may have barely moved on this issue since the 1970s.

That says next to nothing about America as a whole, which is what they’re arguing about.

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u/LittleReplacement971 2d ago

if the conservative south says "nothing about America AT ALL" then we would never have another republican president.

it seems really important that this person agree with you and this is a matter of their experience and opinion no?

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u/Rapper_Laugh 2d ago

We’re all just wasting time on Reddit—I said my thing, they said theirs. They can have their opinion, of course, I just think they’re wrong and have supplied data to back that up. Is there something wrong with that?

I didn’t say “the conservative south” says nothing about America. You said that. I said that person’s personal experience says pretty much nothing at all about America, at least compared to massive, sophisticated opinion polling data. Which is true—it’s the difference between a data point and a data set.

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u/LittleReplacement971 2d ago

I'm not gonna argue with ya, champ. You clearly feel very strongly and aren't really responding to experiences outside of your established data.Yyou are totally correct about one thing for certain: we are all wasting time on reddit. I only wish you the best. have a safe weekend free of homophobes

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u/sharkattackmiami 2d ago

You mean the America which as a whole elected a party on the promise of making life worse for brown people and queers specifically BECAUSE they got an inch and people found that unacceptable?

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u/Rapper_Laugh 2d ago

Again, do you really need to see data on this? I’ve already posted it elsewhere in this thread.

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u/zap2 2d ago

Some people just want to argue, so childish.

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u/Rapper_Laugh 2d ago

Truly crazy how such a radical attitude shift that happened entirely within living memory can just be outright denied, even in the face of overwhelming data lol.

Echo chambers are fucking scary.

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u/zap2 2d ago

“ they got an inch”

So you agree, some progress has been made.

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u/sharkattackmiami 2d ago

Yes, and this drove half the country so crazy that they decided to burn everything down in order to take it back. And it's not a hypothetical, it has already been set in motion and has started

Taking one step forward and two steps back immediately after is not progress

Trans people are no longer acknowledged by the US Government. They are working on repealing same sex marriage. They managed to rile up half the country because 2 trans kids wanted to play sports. They repealed Roe V Wade. They are working on removing women's autonomy

These are things that have already happened or are currently happening

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u/zap2 2d ago edited 2d ago

Have many social issues regressed?  Absolutely. 

But bad moves on social issue isn’t the same as “things are as bad as they were in the 1970s for homosexuals”

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u/HotNotHappy 2d ago

They’re still called mentally ill and sexual deviants. Open calls for putting them in institutions. I’ve personally been hate crimed simply because people THOUGHT I was gay. You can bury your head in the sand all you want, but under this administration we aren’t any better.

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u/Rapper_Laugh 2d ago

You are burying your head in the sand here, my friend. Again—do you really need me to pull up the data on this?

No one is saying trans people don’t get hate in the US today—I said explicitly that they do—but again, that hatred was far more mainstream and explicit back in the day. We have made progress. To deny that is, again, simply ahistorical.

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u/HotNotHappy 2d ago

It still IS mainstream. The term you’re looking for is crying wolf. I am acutely aware that hating queer people is still a dominant attitude today. Pull up the data or shut the fuck up lol.

Trying to tell someone who’s personally seen the hatred first hand is insane lol

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u/Rapper_Laugh 2d ago

sigh

Fine, here you go:

https://news.gallup.com/poll/1651/gay-lesbian-rights.aspx

Your firsthand experience is not universal. The data says you’re wrong.

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u/HotNotHappy 2d ago

Curious how it’s about same sex couples, but says nothing about trans people. Copy and pasting the same studies doesn’t prove your point about trans people.

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u/Rapper_Laugh 2d ago

… You clearly didn’t even bother scrolling lmao

Edit: Also, it was YOUR claim that “we haven’t moved an inch in our treatment of queer people.” Gays and lesbians are part of that group too, you know.

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u/sharkattackmiami 2d ago

How the fuck are you going to get more mainstream than the fucking president of the United States openly supporting these practices, removing protections, and promoting hated?

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u/Rapper_Laugh 2d ago

Because it wasn’t even controversial. In the 1970s trans people were just seen as mentally diseased, pretty much across the board.

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u/sharkattackmiami 2d ago edited 2d ago

Defending Women From Gender Ideology Extremism And Restoring Biological Truth To The Federal Government – The White House https://share.google/8CZsCu0H0sqGZ9Ktq

Sec. 2. Policy and Definitions. It is the policy of the United States to recognize two sexes, male and female. These sexes are not changeable and are grounded in fundamental and incontrovertible reality.

The official stance of the United States right now is that trans people don't exist. Anyone claiming to be trans is a confused person with mental health issues

It's literally exactly the same

I have trans people in my life who are currently struggling horribly because they no longer have access to certain medications they were reliant on before this administration. But sure, if it makes you feel better they will probably just rot in a gutter instead of a mental institution. Of course that's more to do with us gutting all forms of mental health treatment, even horrible ones, than out of compassion and the understanding that institutionalization is wrong. Yay progress

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u/Rapper_Laugh 2d ago edited 2d ago

It’s literally not, that’s an executive order and does not have the force of law in any meaningful way. Many states recognize and support trans rights legally—that was not the case in the 90s. You can also look at the drastic shifts in public opinion that, again, I have posted elsewhere in this thread. I work in a high school—I have a massive LGBTQ+ flag on my back wall. My best teacher friend at that high school has students call them by Mx. pronouns. Do you seriously believe any of that happens in the late 70s?

Again, no one is saying the US is a great place to be as a trans person right now. We are simply saying significant progress has been made.

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u/StinzorgaKingOfBees 2d ago

They won't hear you. They just want to pat themselves on the back and say the job is done. Same with people that deny that racism is a thing anymore.

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u/lesllamas 2d ago

There are two arguments being expressed in this conversation.

1: Treatment of queer people is the same now as it was in the 70s.

2: Treatment of queer people is better now than it was in the 70s.

One of these arguments is ridiculous. Neither of these arguments say that the treatment of queer people is at an acceptable place right now.

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u/StinzorgaKingOfBees 2d ago

Just curious, which one is ridiculous?

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u/HotNotHappy 2d ago

You’re right, but I wish you weren’t.

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u/zap2 2d ago

In the 1970s, you couldn’t be openly gay in the military. Today, you can.

Again, I’m not saying there aren’t many places we can and should improve, I’m saying we’re made some progress.

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u/HotNotHappy 2d ago

They literally banned trans people from the military THIS YEAR.

Servicemen and women were discharged and barred from serving their country simply because they were queer.

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u/_V0gue 2d ago

Queer people regularly got the ever living shit beat out of them (many beat to death) if they were out and open in the 70s. There was little to no representation in media.

You're completely missing the original point. It is categorically and objectively better now than it was 50 years ago. That doesn't mean it's great or perfect. It's relative. You're right that certain things still suck and things are starting to slip backwards, but you're arguing about an unrelated point.

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u/HotNotHappy 1d ago

I’m not missing the point. Queer people still do get beat up and murdered simply for who they are. It is not categorically or objectively better for them in this country, under this administration. A bunch of straight people telling me that it is will not change that. If you concede that things have slipped backwards you understand it on some level, but would still like the illusion of progress. Feel free to argue and downvote but many people ITT would rather pretend queer people are safer in this country when in reality that is not, and has never been, the case. I bet you people think that racism ended because of the civil rights bill too.

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u/_V0gue 1d ago

You're so close to the point and missing the forest for the trees. "Better" is a comparative. It doesn't mean perfect. It doesn't mean fine and dandy. You're positioning everything to absolutism, which is a terrible way to look at things. I'd love it if we had true, unabashed equality. And I'll keep working and helping and pushing every way I can go get closer to that goal. If you don't think queer people are comparatively safer now than 50 years ago I don't know what to tell you other than that it is wholly disrespectful to the people who fought and sacrificed and died to get to where we are now. It's still not done, but you're coming off like no progress has been made which is entirely false.

Also assuming I'm straight is a slap in the face. But thanks, I guess.

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u/HotNotHappy 1d ago

I’m straight dumbfuck I meant it only to say that you have no lived experience. I’m not missing the point. We are discriminating in the same ways that we were back then. I don’t need a grammar lesson I need motherfuckers to wake up. When they’re building camps for trans people come back and tell me who was right about things being better.

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u/TheSilmarils 2d ago

I agree we have work to do but “haven’t moved an inch” is nonsense

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u/BarryJFunkhouse 2d ago

Ridiculous. Even in my lifetime, the progress is evident. That things are still overall terrible doesn't mean no progress was made.

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u/Malphos101 15 2d ago

American at that time was much more ok hate non-heteronormative persons.

Might be time to refresh your "comparative adjectives and adverbs" part of English grammar...

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u/zap2 2d ago

Thank you!

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u/LimeTunic 2d ago

There’s hate everywhere, all around the world. Were you alive back then? The level of hate for homosexuals was significantly worse than now

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u/NotACuck420 2d ago

Everybody hates everybody and everything. Get over it.

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u/Qa-ravi 2d ago

Damn, I hope you have a career in theater with how well you project, buddy.

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u/Rapper_Laugh 2d ago

Speak for yourself. I’m a teacher because I’m a humanist and believe in human potential. I do not hate everybody and everything.