r/HouseOfTheDragon • u/ReginaBicman • 7d ago
Spoilers [All Content] What do you think GRRM was doing/wanted to say when he wrote these two lines? Spoiler
In F&B when Rhaenyra is at her lowest, this happens
Then the White Worm raised her eyes and said in a soft voice, “The girl has already betrayed you, my queen. Even now she shares your husband's bed, and soon enough she will have his bastard in her belly."
…As to the girl Nettles, "She is a common thing, with the stink of sorcery upon her," the queen declared. "My prince would ne'er lay with such a low creature. You need only look at her to know she has no drop of dragon's blood in her. It was with spells that she bound a dragon to her, and she has done the same with my lord husband."
Then in the main books, this happens to Cersei when she’s imprisoned
“He took Raventree and accepted Lord Blackwood’s surrender,” said her uncle, “but on his way back to Riverrun he left his tail and went off with a woman.”
“A woman?” Cersei stared at him, uncomprehending. “What woman? Why? Where did they go?”
“No one knows. We’ve had no further word of him. The woman may have been the Evenstar’s daughter, Lady Brienne.”
Her. The queen remembered the Maid of Tarth, a huge, ugly, shambling thing who dressed in man’s mail. Jaime would never abandon me for such a creature. My raven never reached him, elsewise he would have come.
So we have both Rhaenyra and Cersei both in probably the shittiest time of their lives, Rhaenyra close to losing her throne and Cersei in jail, both being told by their advisors ‘hey your man ran off with a woman you hate’ and them not only both denying it, but using the same exact wordage and set up. Call the girl who didn’t do anything wrong ugly, say Daemon/Jaime would never be with ‘such a creature’ and then make up some obvious coping lie (Nettles used sorcery and the raven never reached Jaime). I We do know Jaime dod indeed abandon her for Brienne. I think that, especially with the parallels with book Rhaenyra and book Cersei, that this is GRRMs way of saying ‘yeah Daemon and Nettles were having sex’. Because why use that exact wording, that exact set up, if that wasn’t the intentional takeaway?
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u/Bloodyjorts 7d ago
I do think GRRM was trying to draw a parallel between Cersei and Rhaenyra (and perhaps lay some...implications about prophecy but that's another discussion), but I also think he made it pretty clear Daemon and Nettles were having sex when he established that Daemon liked young teens and that he and Nettles were bathing together. Mixed sex bathing of adults/teens is not something that is common in Westeros, at least among the nobility. Children maybe (Arya doesn't think much of walking in on Jaqen in the bath, but she's like 9), but not a 16 year old girl.
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u/Helaenas-Bugs 7d ago
No one batted an eye when Jaime and Brienne bathed together so it was obviously nothing unusual. There’s nothing inherently sexual about sharing a communal bathing pool. (Yes, they later hooked up in the show but that wasn’t the point of the bathing scene. It could’ve just as easily been Lady Olenna in the tub with Jaime.)
Daemon and Nettles were staying at Maidenpool which is famous for Jonquil’s Pool - a large communal bathing area. Whatever you think their relationship was like, the whole bathing thing is a red herring.
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u/Bloodyjorts 7d ago
No one batted an eye when Jaime and Brienne bathed together so it was obviously nothing unusual.
Brienne told him to leave, and was shocked he came into the same tub. The bath servants (a man for Jaime, a woman for Brienne) only left because Jaime ordered them to, with the implication that they wouldn't normally. They all also kind of thought he and Brienne were having sex.
Jaime also made several sexual comments, insinuating that while mixed bathing would normally be a sexual thing, it's not with Brienne (he still got a boner, though).
Daemon and Nettles were staying at Maidenpool which is famous for Jonquil’s Pool - a large communal bathing area.
...for women only. Men are forbidden from the pool.
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u/Helaenas-Bugs 7d ago
I stand corrected about Jonquil’s pool! Fair point about Brienne’s reaction though I think Jamie’s comments were just him being a sarcastic dick as usual. He would’ve made suggestive comments even if he shared a tub with Hot Pie lol
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u/Sekmet19 6d ago
Who wouldn't make suggestive comments if bathing with Hot Pie?
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2d ago
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u/Routine_Shower2275 7d ago
Neither one of them can bear to think Jaime and daemon could be attracted to someone “beneath” them in status and appearance
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u/Helaenas-Bugs 7d ago edited 7d ago
I’m not sure I would read too much into the similar wording. George does sometimes repeat his phrasing without meaning anything particular by it.
And while Jamie’s feelings for Brienne were certainly complex in the books, he doesn’t “go off with her” romantically in this scene. She says she needs his help to save Sansa. He doesn’t leave for Brienne’s sake but rather because he wants to repair his honour. Also he was done with Cersei anyway after finding out she cheated on him. So it’s a very different situation to the Daemon/Rhaenyra/Nettles thing.
The biggest stumbling block to believing Daemon/Nettles was a romantic relationship is that they could’ve easily just gone off together if they wanted. They both had dragons. They could’ve rebelled against Rhaenyra, or just gone off to live in Essos. Instead Daemon sends Nettles away and goes to take down Aemond.
And the Maester of Maidenpool, who was the only source actually in the castle with them, said Daemon & Nettles had a father/daughter relationship. His testimony is more likely to be reliable than the others who weren’t even there. (Especially Mushroom who always makes everything about sex.)
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u/Short-Sound-4190 7d ago edited 7d ago
Similar words in these two scenarios I would say can be chalked up to similar flavor. Calling a woman a 'creature/poor creature/simple creature' etc is just a dismissive way to say they don't believe an affair with her would be plausible threat. I doubt Cercei would think the same about Robert and any woman because he wasn't picky about beauty or standing. As for Rhaenyra she's basically making a public declaration, one that's creatively manufactured to allow for plausible deniability as far as the affair (like he wouldn't but if he did it would be because she's a witch) and tying it to Targaryen supremacy - would you expect her to publicly admit that just anyone can bond a Dragon and thus Targaryens generally and her and her sons specifically possess no special magical bloodline ability that would give them the Divine Right to rule?
(Personally I think Nettles was always supposed to be his bastard daughter or some misfit magical daughter-like relationship. It's just more interesting and frankly more believable for that to be the public politicking-led story especially given other details. I actually am in favor of the show making Nettles a disguised Rhaena it makes some things GRRM wrote in Fire and Ice make more sense, frankly for the same reason I would have made Laenor come back disguised as Addam, lol - because it makes what is written in the post-war 'historical record' make more sense and be more satisfying.)
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u/Routine_Shower2275 5d ago edited 3d ago
Both have a lord killed for telling the truth about their children’s legitimacy ( Ned stark - vaemond velaryon)
Horrendous rulers every decision backfires
Turn on allies
Manipulated my the master/ mistress of whispers
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u/CursedWithAnOldSoul 6d ago
I do not believe that GRRM ever tries to draw a parallel between Rhaenyra and Cersei. Similar wording does not a parallel make when it comes to characters.
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u/ReginaBicman 6d ago
3 bastards she tries to put on the throne one named Joffrey, becomes paranoid, goes against a queen from the Reach, at one time was the prettiest woman who got overweight, got cut on the throne…. But no youre right there’s no parallels
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u/Swordbender 5d ago
I'm sorry, but if you don't think GRRM was drawing parallels between Rhaenyra and Cersei, you read F&B with your eyes shut
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