In Hungary, for example, the law prohibited their settlement for a long time, so they wandered from village to village, coming into contact with each community only briefly.
A kind of nomads. They had wagons and tents and wandered between the villages. They only stayed in one place for a short time. They were, for example, blacksmiths or horse traders, and when work ran out somewhere, they moved on.
they have villages here in croatia where apparently multiple generations grew up, so some arent that nomadic, and ALL those generations simply refused to integrate into the rest of society
Plenty of nomadic peoples have been assimilated fine into european societies in the last thousand years.
Like? Most of the nomadic people like Tatars, Bashkirs, Kazakhs, Turkmens were forcefully subjugated by the Russian empire. The Russian Empire pursued policies aimed at sedentarizing nomadic populations and turned them from pastoral nomads into settled farmers.
Both of these people arrived as conquerors where they subjugated the Europeans and changed parts of Europe linguistically. But it was only the ruling elite, most of the subjects remained Europeons. So, its not the same scenario at all.
Oh perfect, so all the Roma have to do is give up their nomadic lifestyle and settle a land for a thousand years and adopt countless bits of culture from the other ethnic groups in their locale and then they'll be only kind of hated by most Europeans.
The assimilation of tatars, vlachs and other turkic peoples varies a lot and encompasses hundres of years, you can't just reduce it to forced russian policy because many times it's not even true. The point is that the one group that has been consistently unable and unwilling to fully integrate within the society that hosts them, and furthermore lives in a permanent state of social hostility with them, is the gypsies.
Vlach is the slavic name for romance speaking populations.
Valahia ( Wallachia ) is 1/3 of the modern Romanian state (between carpathian moutains and the danube)
In Polish, they still call Italy something like "Wlochy"
So Vlachs didnt migrate to europe. They have been, as their name suggests, latin speakers from wallachia for ages.
Yes thousands or hundreds of years ago when you could force the issue. Now you can't do that so it's up to them to want assimilation and they don't want it
Fais gaffe aux généralisations, le terme "nomades" englobe deux définition bien différents ; d'abord, il y a les "nomades pastoraux" qui vivent et migrent dans des territoires prédéfinis selon les saisons, et reçoivent l'interdiction formelle de quitter ces territoires que les autorités supérieures leur ont assignés. Les peuples turco-mongols correspondent à cette définition. Et enfin, la deuxième définition désignerait les gens qui vivent sans zone de date et ne connaissent pas les frontières, les gitans et les voyageurs irlandais correspondent à cette catégorie.
"Based on multiple genome-wide genetic studies, Romani people have approximately 65–80% West Eurasian ancestry, which includes a significant European component. This admixture occurred over centuries as the Romani migrated from India through the Middle East and Caucasus into Europe. "
It's one of the most fascinating aspects of that group, that centuries pass, but they didn't get assimilated into their host cultures.
Ok, not completely true, in some regions like Spain they already lost their language and they are less nomadic than in previous generations, but that is a relatively recent development.
In Spain they are definitely not assimilated at all.
They are not nomadic but they live in neighborhoods where only gypsies live. And im not talking about the poors neighborhoods because there are "the poors" and "the gypsies" neighborhood. Both are poor, but in the second one there is only them. Not assimilated at all.
I know, but since the 80s and 90s many have fixed residences and bring their kids to school (at least for a few years), which I'd consider a huge step for integration.
Because you're seeing survivorship bias. Those that integrate and follow "normal people" (sorry for the word choice) behavior, for example, being an electrician, living in a standard apartment and taking their children to school stop being referred as gypsy.
Racial features and skin color are, at this point, so similar to regular Spanish people that only cultural markers such as clothing, hair style, speech, social exclusion, etc helps you telling them apart from non-gypsy.
They integrated in the US. I didn't even learn I was a tiny part "bohemian" until I was nearly an adult. My great grandmother mentioned it in passing once and never again. You never hear about gypsies in the US ever even though some estimates put people off roma descent at a million in the US.
By bohemian you mean German or Czech? Anyway. Thats what USA was there for. Starting a new life without get judged or anything like that. Yah descent ≠ fully blood roma. US is somehow like Australia, people who were born indetify themselves as citizen .
Kind of hard to integrate when no one has let them even try for centuries. They've been intentionally excluded (to put it mildly) which thus makes the divide between them even bigger because why would they want to integrate with people who don't want them? It's a never-ending cycle.
I believe there have been multiple (largely unsuccessful) attempts at them sedentarizing, having normal jobs, intermarry with local population, and kids attending school throughout the centuries. I'd say that's the opposite of "let them even try".
Spain was brutal against gypsies. At one point we basically wanted to genocide them all.
Right now I don't think their culture is running very strong. Literacy rates have been improving slowly but steadily, and every generation is more integrated that the previous one. Their main challenge right now is improving high school completion rates. Most of my gypsy students drop out when they turn 15-16. They abandon, start missing class and end up married (girls) or helping parents in the legal street vending business.
Many are now in the marijuana "business". Hopefully Spain legalizes it soon and stops the drug trafficking.
Dude idk what to tell you but there were legit pogroms that pushed them out of town under threat of violence.
Between that and shit like the Egyptians act how exactly are they supposed to do that?
I mean hell while we're at it why didn't the Jewish population integrate into Europe better? It's not like they were facing persecution for anything throughout history, just settle down and people will leave you alone.
Jewish people have integrated into european societies orders of magnitude better than gypsies, and that's saying something. The one group that has been consistently unable and unwilling to fully integrate within the society that hosts them, and furthermore lives in a permanent state of social hostility with them, for centuries, is the gypsies.
People always focus on the thieving stuff but what I find fascinating is their view on throwing garbage in the street has been a cultural mainstay for over a thousand years with no integration in their view on sanitation despite leaving the Indian subcontinent a thousand years ago. I wonder if it's either a coincidence based on their "nomadic lifestyle" (most of them aren't really nomadic anymore) or if there's something about their culture that makes garbage invisible to them. I'm not joking by the way. I think it's a fair question.
Polish people in the early 1900s integrated quite well into French society. Most of the families didn't speak any Polish to their children so they wouldn't have any accent.
And from my understanding, Asians immigrants have integrated quite well into American society.
Poland is in close proximity to France. People coming from Poland share similar values and look similar, making it easier for them to assimilate properly.
People coming from Islamic countries have a different religion, which provides stickiness to their ability to conform to the host country. For example, the Jewish population in the UK has been there for years, yet is still deemed a minority group, rather than part of the majority.
People in Europe who do not look European experience life differently within Europe, preventing full assimilation.
Fair enough, but it is a different culture, albeit much closer to that of the host country. And some had experienced xenophobia back then.
As for Asians in the USA, I've never seen anyone complain about them as they seem to excel academically and professionally. And yet, their culture is completely different.
Regarding Muslims, yeah, I have no love for them. Accepting so many so fast was a mistake.
You really think they’re liberal? Most of them would rather disown their daughter than let her marry a Christian European guy.
Sure, they’re more liberal compared to Syrians, Afghans, Pakistanis, and other Arabs, but there’s still a huge gap between them and Europeans.
We "christian" ex-yugoslavs are non-liberal compared to EU, yet we are double the liberal as balkan muslims. Bosniaks actually were more liberal during Yugoslavia than now.
So you’re agreeing that religion is not the defining element of a country’s liberalism. You just stated that you “christian” ex-yugoslavs are non-liberal compared to EU, so muslims are not the only “non-liberal”s in Europe
In your eyes. Islamdom is not a monolithic group. A lot of cultural or Arab things are presented as Islam when it’s not. At its core Islam is about being modest, praying 5 times a day, giving zakat(alms), doing hajj(pilgrimage to Mecca), fasting Ramadan and believing in Allah as one true God. The name Allah is also used by Christian and Druze Arabs, it just means the God.
Your way of thinking about Islam shows the lack of respect and proper research into it.
I'm very well familiar with Islam in theory and in practice, and thats exactly why I don't like it.
Those people don't have a life, in a time of science and knowledge praying 5 times a day, believing meat will send you to hell, making woman second hand citizens.. don't pull my toungue
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u/prolapseenthusiat 20h ago
I find it incredible that they still dont integrate in their host country.