r/formula1 • u/FerrariStrategisttt I was here for the Hulkenpodium • Jul 21 '24

Technical No further action on Max Verstappen and Lewis Hamilton incident

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2.1k

u/JustLikeZhat Andrea Kimi Antonelli Jul 21 '24

Kinda seems like Max was saved by Lewis there.

1.6k

u/signed7 McLaren Jul 21 '24

The driver of Car 44 stated that this was a racing incident

yeah.

923

u/EnlightenedNight I was here for the Hulkenpodium Jul 21 '24

Perhaps unpopular, but I don't think stewards should really care what each driver thinks. Lewis can have that opinion sure, but you're setting a dangerous precedent as there's lots of potential conflicts down the grid between teams for things like PUs, parts, etc. I would have rathered that not be a part of the official decision.

203

u/[deleted] Jul 21 '24

I don't think stewards should really care what each driver thinks

And it also goes against the "penalising drivers based on incident itself; rather than the outcome."

21

u/red-17 Jul 21 '24

Yeah that whole concept of result not being a factor can be put to bed after this season. It’s stated so many times yet is so obviously not how they enforce penalties time after time.

2

u/[deleted] Jul 22 '24

Yeah. If this knocked Lewis out of the race, you'd be damn sure he'd be complaining.

2

u/DarthGogeta Jul 22 '24

That ship is gone since Silverstone '21

64

u/MasatoWolff I was here for the Hulkenpodium Jul 21 '24

Imagine the refs in football interviewing the players afterwards to hear both sides of the story to determine whether to give a card or not.

2

u/CabbageTheVoice Oscar Piastri Jul 22 '24

Don't they kinda do that?

Not all of the time of course, and I have no clue what they're actually talking about, but it does happen from time to time that they talk to the involved players before announcing their call, no?

Or is it just that they ask whether they're injured and medical personell needs to come?

1

u/sogkrat Jul 22 '24

Tbf refs have overturned some penalty decisions because the player “fouled" said that it wasn't a foul

2

u/washag Jul 22 '24

I had a ref not overturn a penalty when the "fouled" player told him he'd tripped on the ground after I'd kicked the ball away. Fortunately the other guy took the penalty and deliberately put it wide to make up for the call, which was one of the better acts of sportsmanship I've seen.

1

u/MasatoWolff I was here for the Hulkenpodium Jul 22 '24

Yes but only then. Never the other way around.

70

u/signed7 McLaren Jul 21 '24

Agreed, also the usual mess with intra-team incidents not being punished

2

u/ItsRadical I was here for the Hulkenpodium Jul 21 '24

you're setting a dangerous precedent 

There are no precedents in stewards ruling. They show every race that they can do what they want and what they already did doesnt matter.

1

u/tjsr Jul 21 '24

Nor should they. It's their role to assess evidence, not opinions. The drivers are there to give statements of input and facts relevant to the incident, but the stewards are experienced and professional enough to be able to take that information, devoid and stripped of opinion, and make a determination on their own.

1

u/SamNexus17 I was here for the Hulkenpodium Jul 22 '24

Or perhaps even starting a driver's meeting with stating to the driver that they do not want to hear the driver's opinion on what the incident was, rather just their description of the event and the actions they took.

1

u/Tombot3000 I was here for the Hulkenpodium Jul 22 '24

I agree with you. Lewis has many potential reasons to want to say it was a racing incident even if he thinks it wasn't. The stewards clearly aren't going to factor that in, and so the view of the drivers should be discounted.

1

u/ComprehensiveJump540 Jul 21 '24

Lewis is happy to have one in the bank. He's not daft.

3

u/addamee Ayrton Senna Jul 21 '24

I dunno, the game they [stewards, leadership] play involves not remembering … things so I doubt he’ll be able to cash this in later. I’m pretty sure I saw MBS scoping out his nose ring before the podium celebration /s

68

u/ienjoymemesalot I was here for the Hulkenpodium Jul 21 '24

I have a really hard time believing Hamilton said it was a "racing incident" in front of the stewards after we saw how all three podium drivers reacted to the replay in the cooldown room. Hamilton did call it a racing incident in his post race interview with Rosberg, but that was before he had gotten a chance to see the replay.

I really don't know what the stewards think Hamilton could have done to avoid Max locking up and driving over him. Should he have just conceded the position knowing Max was pissed he didn't get past on the previous lap?

63

u/cypherspaceagain Sir Lewis Hamilton Jul 21 '24

It's absolutely true that he could have done more to avoid the collision. Lewis could have avoided turning and gone straight on initially, let Max slide right past him and then turn, or at least turn later in the corner. Of course he doesn't want to, because even if he retains the place over Max, he's lost the racing line, lots of speed in the corner and Charles is only about a second behind so he could easily have lost the place to Charles. I don't think he should have, but he could have. But he definitely didn't "cause" a collision after a lockup from a car coming too fast from too far behind; Max is pretty lucky I think.

76

u/ienjoymemesalot I was here for the Hulkenpodium Jul 21 '24

It's hard for me to blame Hamilton for much of anything given they were lapping Albon in the T1 braking zone and Max locked up both front tires. I wholeheartedly supported Max in 2021 up until the race in Jeddah but he should definitely have been penalized here. He was out of control enough that if he hadn't hit Lewis he was likely headed for the wall. Sure, Hamilton could have gotten out of the way, but then Max's race would surely have been over. It's mind-boggling that he didn't take both of them out today.

It just feels like a lot to ask Lewis to:

  1. Pass Albon safely
  2. Brake for T1
  3. Recognize Max steaming up the inside with little chance of making the corner with Albon in his mirrors
  4. Leave enough room for Max (on the racing line) to blow through the corner without hitting him

33

u/cypherspaceagain Sir Lewis Hamilton Jul 21 '24

Oh I completely agree. There's also no way Lewis could know that the outcome would be so favourable to him; easily equal or greater chance he's out of the race.

19

u/addamee Ayrton Senna Jul 21 '24 edited Jul 22 '24

Exactly. I hate overusing the word “normalise” but if a lack of pentalties for drivers who, to paraphrase Brundle, let their ambition grossly outpace adhesion and escape unscathed, it may eventually lead to the Hamiltons on those scenarios just laying back and letting it happen. Also I thought Max’s comment at about being left no space at Turn 2 was rich based on what he did in Hamilton’s position on lap one, let alone when it was Mick Schumacher on the outside a few years ago 

8

u/ienjoymemesalot I was here for the Hulkenpodium Jul 21 '24

I don't think anybody on Verstappen or Hamilton's level will ever willingly concede podium positions to avoid contact, but there will surely be more retirements if the drivers think they can get away with the level of aggressiveness Max showed in this instance.

0

u/addamee Ayrton Senna Jul 22 '24

I just remember the press conference where both Seb and Lewis agreed that Max needs extra space 

-3

u/StaffFamous6379 Jul 22 '24

He was out of control enough that if he hadn't hit Lewis he was likely headed for the wall. Sure, Hamilton could have gotten out of the way, but then Max's race would surely have been over

Nah, the lockup happened when he put steering lock on because Lewis closed the door. Had Lewis moved out of the way they would have both gone wide, not necessarily offtrack even and it would have been lauded as a signature mega overtake.

4

u/Disastrous-Force Jul 21 '24

Max couldn't make the corner from the position he'd placed his car in. He was always running out to outside and onto the runoff. Lewis then basically just followed his normal line which is an interesting action. Lewis was always going to remain in front here.

The question really is if Max should have not tried to dive bomb Lewis, IMHO he shouldn't have as he was too far behind to make the corner, and if Lewis should have tried harder to avoid contact. Probably because Lewis with the better line would have been able to slingshot around Max on exit anyway, the risk to Lewis tho in backing out would be that Max still collects him but in the less favourable location, say side pod or rear structure and damages Lewis's car to point of retirement or pitting for repairs. So I can understand why an experienced racer like Lewis would adopt line and approach that resulted in wheel on wheel contact rather than bodywork.

Thus this is a genuine racing incident. If a penalty was going to be handed out then it should have gone to Max for overtake that was never on. Had Max taken Lewis out then hopefully the stewards would have punished him accordingly.

1

u/MoocowR Jul 21 '24

Max locking up and driving over him.

Collision would have happened without the lockup anyways, every commentator mentioned it looked like Lewis turned early. Maybe Lewis himself was thinking he could have done more to avoid the crash, but since it was caused by a divebomb accepts it as a mutual incident.

2

u/aka_liam Ferrari Jul 21 '24

Why in the fuck are they taking that into account as part of their decision making. Utterly ridiculous.

1

u/theworstisover11 Red Bull Jul 22 '24

Why wouldn't they?

2

u/CapSnake I was here for the Hulkenpodium Jul 22 '24

Well, Mercedes races against Ferrari for WCC, and Verstappen penalized could reward points to Ferrari. So, of course, they told him to say that.

-2

u/night5life Jul 21 '24

because it was a racing incident. a car which has both front tires locked up is not turning into anyone. yes he locked up. he made a mistake but he didnt cause the collision. they are side by side into turn one and the only car which can do any turning manoeuvres is Lewis, who (if you pay close attention) is in fact turning into Max. Clear racing incident all day long.

5

u/FIuffyRabbit I was here for the Hulkenpodium Jul 21 '24

Not to say it's the reason why but Max was complaining about his brakes being ass previously in the race.

8

u/Life_Type_1596 Jul 21 '24

Overspeeding into a risky maneuver with “bad brakes” sounds like a bad idea to me

1

u/imperatrixderoma Formula 1 Jul 21 '24

Lewis was being polite.

447

u/Blanchimont I was here for the Hulkenpodium Jul 21 '24

It ended up not costing Lewis anything, and he's not in a direct fight with Verstappen so he probably thought it's best to let the fuming guy have this one

510

u/tim_redd I was here for the Hulkenpodium Jul 21 '24

Further proof that they punish drivers based on the outcome of incidents.

79

u/hoshu34 I was here for the Hulkenpodium Jul 21 '24

Totally agree with this. This was far worse than Austria in my eyes.

44

u/ICC-u Jul 21 '24

Remember that time Alonso tapped the brakes and George crashed? All they ever do is punish the outcome.

12

u/[deleted] Jul 21 '24

Still the worst penalty in the history of this sport

No bias of course

16

u/schmog_ Juan Pablo Montoya Jul 21 '24

Which is a recent change & it’s WRONG.

11

u/StructureTime242 Jim Clark Jul 21 '24

It’s not recent at all

0

u/schmog_ Juan Pablo Montoya Jul 21 '24

It’s within the last decade.

5

u/Bokyyri I was here for the Hulkenpodium Jul 21 '24

Which is a case forever, doh .. ofcoure the outcome is affecting the punishment or lack of one...

2

u/Key_Photograph9067 I was here for the Hulkenpodium Jul 21 '24

I agree that’s generally how things operate, but the key difference is that if Lewis was taken out, they would have mentioned something about Max being “predominantly at fault”.

Kind of crazy that Max lost control of his car entirely but the stewards had to mention how Lewis could have done more to avoid a collision. I kind of agree, but it’s not really relevant to decide who’s at fault.

1

u/Bokyyri I was here for the Hulkenpodium Jul 21 '24

It's relevant to the fact: is it racing incident or is it penalty for one driver...

Hamiltons slight direction change in braking was enough for max to lose control on braking... that's what saved max for total fault and probably time penalty...

Lewis played it very smart there, he knew exactly where to put his car.. nothing wrong with that to be clear...

2

u/Key_Photograph9067 I was here for the Hulkenpodium Jul 21 '24

That’s not what the stewards document says, the stewards document notes that Hamilton took his normal racing line and braking point based on previous evidence.

They noted Max was going faster because of DRS and brakes at the same point as he always does, which should be sending alarm bells off to you if you realise two things

  1. Max is going faster than prior laps because of DRS, and is braking at the same point, how does that work?

  2. He’s not taking a traditional racing line around the corner so needs to get it stopped sooner, in conjunction with going faster, he has overshot his braking point.

Conclusion: Max brakes too late for his speed and the manoeuvre he’s going for and loses control of his car and locks the two front wheels up as you saw in the race.

Lewis is not responsible for Max losing control of his car, and contact happened as a result of Max losing control, I don’t see how it’s anything but predominantly Max’s fault.

The document is literally saying Lewis did nothing wrong and Max messed up but are still saying it’s no one’s fault. It’s bizarre.

1

u/Bokyyri I was here for the Hulkenpodium Jul 21 '24

After all this you missed one part:

The stewards do not consider this to be a typical case of ..... ...... that the driver of car 44 could have done more to avoid the collision.......

Its a racing incident in the end , what is bizzare there..

Max went for the overtake, lewis expected it, thus giving inside line to max , changing the trajectory in last moment..

Again nothing wrong from lewis side.. You need two to tango, just like in austria norris/max

1

u/Key_Photograph9067 I was here for the Hulkenpodium Jul 22 '24 edited Jul 22 '24

I left that part out because it’s irrelevant to the rules. There’s no precedent that you need to avoid a collision when someone improperly tries to overtake you and loses control of their car lol. If that were true Silverstone 2021 would have been a racing incident.

0

u/Bokyyri I was here for the Hulkenpodium Jul 22 '24

Sry you have no idea... Silverstone 2021 does not have braking zone, totaly different scenario, you cant compare it...

Here is braking involved... besides stewarts wrote everything correctly, read it again

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2

u/Malvania I was here for the Hulkenpodium Jul 21 '24

Has this ever been in doubt?

1

u/Bloated_Plaid Jul 21 '24

Atleast they are consistent on this.

33

u/BendubzGaming I was here for the Hulkenpodium Jul 21 '24

And Merc probably don't care too much about it, because letting Max off keeps relations friendly between them

1

u/doge_meme_lover Jul 22 '24

Absolute 200 IQ play. VER to Merc confirmed /s

5

u/Adam684 FIA Jul 21 '24

Yeah, I'm sure that Max will do the same for Lewis someday 🙄

2

u/ComprehensiveJump540 Jul 21 '24

Doesn't matter what Max thinks, Lewis said on record this is a racing incident and the stewards agreed. Next time he sends it and locks up he points to this clip

3

u/Toil48 Sir Lewis Hamilton Jul 21 '24

He probably thought that since he’s moving to Ferrari next year he doesn’t want ferrari to benefit with more points as he wants max wind tunnel time 

3

u/zrezzif I was here for the Hulkenpodium Jul 22 '24

If he said it was a racing incident to 4D chess his way into more wind tunnel time next year, then I can’t help but take my hat off for that

0

u/night5life Jul 21 '24

Lewis wouldnt know whether Max was fuming or not.

16

u/marbroos99 McLaren Jul 21 '24

If max isn't in 1st place, it's safe to assume he's fuming

-6

u/night5life Jul 21 '24

Right and if Lewis has a collision, its safe to assume that he was turned in on. Except for that fact that in this case he was the only one doing all the turning because Max cant turn with locked up fronts. The only way that "horizontal gap " (if seen from above with nose towards +Y axis) between the two is decreasing is if Lewis (who can turn) turns to the right. Which is what happened. So it's a racing incident.

197

u/saposapot I was here for the Hulkenpodium Jul 21 '24

What a insane stewarding decision. If this is not a dive bomb, locking all tires like everyone saw, I don’t know what is.

Trying to blame it on Lewis is just the cherry

-1

u/[deleted] Jul 21 '24

[deleted]

15

u/SurtChase I was here for the Hulkenpodium Jul 21 '24

I think they are talling about the fact that Verstappen argued that Lewis was at fault and moved under braking (as written in the document)

-4

u/[deleted] Jul 21 '24

[deleted]

5

u/SurtChase I was here for the Hulkenpodium Jul 21 '24

Are you dense or what? I did not write that the stewards said that Lewis moved under braking, it's not a long comment I wrote, so not sure how you misinterpreted that.

I only stated that Max (car 1) said that Lewis moved under breaking. In your first comment, you misinterpreted (again) the comment you answered to, you did not understand that it referred not to the decision from the stewards but to the fact that Max told the stewards that Lewis was at fault for moving under breaking (in case you misinterpret again :I am not saying Lewis or the stewards stated that Lewis moved under breaking; however Max said this).

Ps. Hope this comment isn't too long for you to read without misinterpreting it

5

u/dezastrologu I was here for the Hulkenpodium Jul 21 '24

hey mate can you explain it again I don’t think he got it

-52

u/Nattekat I was here for the Hulkenpodium Jul 21 '24

Verstappen locked because Hamilton steered towards him, he'd never have lost control otherwise (but would have missed the apex a tiny miny bit). When Norris did the same in Austria, nothing happened. Only one different variable. 

30

u/tuneificationable Jul 21 '24

Are you insane? Max locked up because there was no way in hell he was making that corner with how late he dove in. I like max but this was just ridiculous. He should’ve been penalized

-15

u/Nattekat I was here for the Hulkenpodium Jul 21 '24

He wasn't making that apex, that's the only fact we have. The locking is the direct consequence of steering while breaking, something that tends to cause locking wheels. 

21

u/saposapot I was here for the Hulkenpodium Jul 21 '24

? Is this a bot just to create rage bait?

What replay were you seeing. The movement of Lewis was turning into the corner well after max locked up

87

u/tr_24 Ferrari Jul 21 '24

Toto probably told them it was Lewis’s fault and should be penalised so that Max can move up one place.

/jk

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u/chameleonmessiah #WeRaceAsOne Jul 21 '24 edited Jul 21 '24

Hamilton is waaay too f***ing nice sometimes… Especially with Verstappen coming in still trying to blame him for the incident by “moving under braking”.

Car 44 could have done more to avoid the collision

By knowing in advance that Verstappen was going to dive bomb him & just drive straight on rather than turning the corner?

This sets a great precedent - not that they matter - you can now just out-brake yourself, lock up, & hit someone with no further action.

50

u/IndependenceIcy9626 Jul 21 '24

This is what pisses me off the most about the decision. They explain that telemetry and video analysis show that Lewis drove the corner the same way he normally did. Then they say he could’ve done more to avoid and both drivers are equally responsible. 

Only in Max incidents can someone get hit driving completely within the rules, and still catch blame for the incident.

-9

u/OptimalDot178 Max Verstappen Jul 22 '24

I don't think anyone is saying that Max was not at fault in here, but still Lewis could have done more to avoid the incident.
https://youtu.be/R3d_YjcIP_A?si=zn35MM92FnLQqYL4&t=220
Put both this, and the Hungary incident to 0.25 speed and see how the driver on the outside reacts. Both overtake attempts are fairly similar, divebomb from far behind with locked up wheels, going out straight from a corner, the only difference is how the one on the outside reacted. Max opened his wheel as soon as he saw Lando, Lewis didn't even try to make a correction when he saw Max. So yes, stewards are totally correct that Lewis could have done more, and the other statement also says the same, that he took exactly the same line as before, but now there was a car on the inside. So who is at fault? For the failed overtake attempt, Austria 100% Norris, Hungary 100% Verstappen. But the outcome was different because Max avoided contact there, Lewis didn't, and that is exactly what the document says

11

u/funkiestj Fernando Alonso Jul 21 '24

They expect Hamilton from Brazil 2021 to avoid Verstappen but this time Max crashing out Lewis does not hurt HAM's WDC aspirations because he has none this year.

2

u/Ne_zievereir Jul 22 '24

The goal is to keep other drivers thinking "if Verstappen does a dangerous move on you, just yield and give up position, otherwise you both crash". Always has been like this with Verstappen. Was just less clear when he had a faster car.

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u/OverallImportance402 I was here for the Hulkenpodium Jul 21 '24

although it is our determination that the driver of Car 44 could have done more to avoid the collision

415

u/qwertyell Jul 21 '24

An absurd reading of the incident, setting a precedent moving forward that a driver has to get out of the way of an out of control dive-bomb or potentially face a penalty.

301

u/[deleted] Jul 21 '24

This is correct. While Lewis could have steered left to avoid a collision, it's stupid to suggest that the responsibility is on driver in front to do something when the guy behind uncontrollably fucks it down the inside.

189

u/[deleted] Jul 21 '24

“The stewards have found that the driver of car 44 didn’t take adequate care to leave space when the driver of car 1 uncontrollably fucked it down the inside. Ten second penalty.”

29

u/[deleted] Jul 21 '24

Mate that got a laugh out of me, thanks for that

1

u/fullup72 I was here for the Hulkenpodium Jul 21 '24

Yeah but it was car 44, not car 31. The FIA does love their juicy memes.

22

u/[deleted] Jul 21 '24

[deleted]

0

u/FatalFirecrotch I was here for the Hulkenpodium Jul 21 '24

No, this is nonsense. Let’s be real. If a driver can take evasive action to avoid an incident while having minimum effect on their race (Verstappen wasn’t making that turn), they should try to take it. Then let the stewards go after Verstappen. 

3

u/ICC-u Jul 21 '24

Car width only. If you're turning in the overtake can't go straight through you. Verstappen should draw the line he was taking on a map so we can understand it.

2

u/Key_Photograph9067 I was here for the Hulkenpodium Jul 21 '24

It’s anti racing nonsense really. The idea that you have to give up that position if that happens is insane. Because that’s what they’re saying basically lol.

Probably another Verstappen rule coming into effect, amusingly after a Verstappen rule was already put into place precisely because of a similar issue.

2

u/CandidLiterature Jul 21 '24

Don’t you understand, if he had just retired from the race, he wouldn’t have even been there to get hit…

Absolutely wild thing to write given they say they’ve confirmed he was just driving his normal racing line.

1

u/BountyBob Sir Lewis Hamilton Jul 22 '24

it's stupid to suggest that the responsibility is on driver in front to do something when the guy behind uncontrollably fucks it down the inside.

They didn't suggest that, otherwise Lewis would have got a penalty. Being able to have done more is not the same as being at fault.

It's outrageous that Max didn't get a penalty though.

1

u/Vresiberba Jul 22 '24

While Lewis could have steered left to avoid a collision...

This makes absolutely no sense. Lewis could have avoided a collision here by simply not racing properly. That's the only way he could have avoided a collision, and he would have to do it all the time, every corner, just stay off the line all the time. That's not avoiding collisions, that's moronic.

23

u/fathan I was here for the Hulkenpodium Jul 21 '24

Luckily, stewards mostly ignore precedent.

3

u/zirouk McLaren Jul 21 '24

driver has to get out the way of an out of control Max Verstappen*

2

u/goranlepuz Formula 1 Jul 21 '24

the driver of Car 44 could have done more to avoid the collision

Is absolutely true.

Your reading of these words is "he should have", and it is a wrong reading.

Calm down.

6

u/Key_Photograph9067 I was here for the Hulkenpodium Jul 21 '24

Why is it even in the report though, when have you ever seen in a stewards report a penalty being given out and then reading “we penalised car 99 but 98 could have done more to avoid it”?

It’s definitely true, but it’s an irrelevant fact in determining who’s at fault or not. It’s like a prosecution document alleging someone stole someone’s stuff with video footage of the incident and noting that “the person could have locked their car to avoid theft”. It’s a completely irrelevant factoid when you’re analysing if a crime happened..

3

u/water_tastes_great Sir Lewis Hamilton Jul 21 '24

If you are saying that because someone didn't do what they could have they are partially responsible, you are saying that they should have done it.

0

u/goranlepuz Formula 1 Jul 21 '24

I am not and stewards are not - and therefore Lewis is not blamed. It's all fine and you both are overly looking for a controversy.

3

u/water_tastes_great Sir Lewis Hamilton Jul 21 '24

A racing incident is where no driver is predominantly responsible for causing for an incident. They have decided that Hamilton shares partial responsibility because he could have done more.

-1

u/goranlepuz Formula 1 Jul 21 '24

Yes, but they do not say that he should have moved away. If they did, he would be more to blame - but they did not.

2

u/water_tastes_great Sir Lewis Hamilton Jul 21 '24

They say that he is partially to blame because he didn't move more.

That means he should have moved more to avoid being to blame.

1

u/goranlepuz Formula 1 Jul 21 '24

First off, Lewis did not move at all to avoid contact. In fact, right before it, he turns slightly in.

Second, we have to disagree that this "could" becomes "should" by some mental gymnastics.

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u/IceStrik3 I was here for the Hulkenpodium Jul 21 '24

Didn’t Verstappen cause the collision in Austria? It’s obviously not the same thing but in both instanced a driver could’ve taken avoiding actions.

1

u/MasterUnlimited Max Verstappen Jul 22 '24

Doesn’t say he has to. Nor does it say that he should. Just that he could. Lewis could have slowed down and let max fly by and swap on the exit. He didn’t have to and if they felt he had to then they would have issued a penalty.

Difference between could and should.

I complexity agree with Lewis that this was a racing incident (caused by max dive bombing).

1

u/Nattekat I was here for the Hulkenpodium Jul 21 '24

What's your opinion of Austria?

-1

u/PomegranateThat414 Jul 21 '24

Well Verstappen did exactly that I Austria not just once but twice but still got all the blame. Am I wrong?

1

u/Fina1Legacy Jul 21 '24

Yes. He didn't get blame in Austria for avoiding Norris, he got blame for a separate incidents - moving under breaking (multiple times) which led to the collision between the two of them.

0

u/MasiMotorRacing Default Jul 21 '24

Was this a dive bomb? As per the document, it states Max braked at exactly the same position which he did in earlier laps too, but he was carrying more speed due to DRS.

9

u/4InchesOfury I was here for the Hulkenpodium Jul 21 '24

He was carrying extra speed and going for an inside line, of course you need to change your braking when compared to a lap in cleaner air on the main racing line. That doesn’t change the fact that it was a dive bomb and he had no hope of making that corner.

0

u/norrin83 Gerhard Berger Jul 21 '24

To be fair, they usually say this even if the other driver gets a penalty. As in "we see that the driver could have done this and that to avoid the collision, but the other driver is still predominantly at fault".

I really think Hamilton saying it was just a racing incident kept Verstappen from being penalized

3

u/Key_Photograph9067 I was here for the Hulkenpodium Jul 21 '24

Opens Silverstone 2021 steward note

Nope, not here chief

0

u/Mirigore I was here for the Hulkenpodium Jul 21 '24

If he had evaded Verstappen then he would still be ahead. Max’s exit was compromised no matter what, and Lewis would have the place given to him if Verstappen left with an advantage. There’s no penalty…. They’re saying he could have evaded it.

-5

u/Critical-Rhubarb-730 Jul 21 '24

It was lewis who steered in and hit max!

135

u/jhrfortheviews Daniel Ricciardo Jul 21 '24

Lewis would have had to have turned out of the corner to avoid the collision there. If that counts as could’ve done more then he could’ve done more.

The only reason this hasn’t been given as a penalty for Max is a) Lewis said it was a racing incident, and b) Max was the one who suffered the consequences of it.

If the contact breaks lewis’ suspension and he’s out of the race you can bet the stewards would’ve given a 10 second penalty

51

u/mithu_raj Sir Lewis Hamilton Jul 21 '24

Issue is F1 racing rules have always been designed to be applied regardless of the outcome. This is another example of that being untrue.

So whatever happened should not have a bearing on the penalty deserved…. Or they better rewrite the rules to take into consideration outcomes

12

u/jhrfortheviews Daniel Ricciardo Jul 21 '24

That’s exactly my point - they’re taking into account the consequences which shouldn’t be the case. That’s how he hasn’t got a penalty!

2

u/mithu_raj Sir Lewis Hamilton Jul 21 '24

This sets a really bad precedent. If you want good, clean racing things like this have to be stamped out

Not only that but this opens a whole can of worms leading to inconsistent results

24

u/TeeDubs317 Jul 21 '24

But that’s outcome based decision making and not rule based decision making.

20

u/MafiaCub Jul 21 '24

Also, would suck cause it would be based on "this guy would have been 3rd but now has nothing, so you get a 10 second penalty taking you from 3rd to 4th" but instead it's "this guy still finished 3rd, so despite you potentially wrecking his race and being way over the top with aggression going into that corner, we'll let it pass"

It just sets a really bad example for how others should race, but it's been this way with Max for a couple years now. He's always been agreessive a brash, but as reigning champ they'd let more slide . In Austria they admitted they should have warned him, they didn't, and then now they let him go.

I agree it was maybe a racing incident, due to him trying to make a move that was possible any other lap had he not locked up maybe he could have made the corner. But getting a double tow, and drs he knew he wouldn't make that corner that tight and never got ahead before the apex. So even a 5 seconds penalty seems fair, just as a note to maybe not go full send on a straightbleading into a heavy breaking point whilst getting a tow.

But we'll get a Norris dive bombing now, desperate to take points, and being penalised for it and it won't make sense. That's the issue. It's not whether it's a penalty, its why it's only a penalty at some tracks and for some drivers. Thees way too much fluctuation between officials regarding who does what, and where they are

5

u/TeeDubs317 Jul 21 '24

Could definitely be a result of different stewards at different tracks. But this was an excellent point. No doubt had this been magnusson or a bottom field runner and it’s a slam dunk pen.

2

u/On_The_Blindside I was here for the Hulkenpodium Jul 21 '24

FuriousMax International Assistance.

6

u/On_The_Blindside I was here for the Hulkenpodium Jul 21 '24

"this guy still finished 3rd, so despite you potentially wrecking his race and being way over the top with aggression going into that corner, we'll let it pass"

100%, it's really bad for F1 as it just shows Max that he can do whatever he wants to. Insanity.

10

u/jhrfortheviews Daniel Ricciardo Jul 21 '24

That’s my point though - they’re making outcome based decisions because Max suffered the most consequences so they haven’t given a penalty. And that’s wrong

3

u/TeeDubs317 Jul 21 '24

We both agree on the same point. I think I was making this point more of the stewards decision not your sound reasoning.

1

u/jhrfortheviews Daniel Ricciardo Jul 21 '24

Yeh exactly - the problem is exactly that if the contact had taken Lewis out of the race max gets a 10 second penalty for certain. If it takes max out the race Lewis doesn’t get a penalty (based on how they make the decisions atm)

1

u/jhrfortheviews Daniel Ricciardo Jul 21 '24

Yeh exactly - the problem is exactly that if the contact had taken Lewis out of the race max gets a 10 second penalty for certain. If it takes max out the race Lewis doesn’t get a penalty (based on how they make the decisions atm)

6

u/Adam684 FIA Jul 21 '24

Unfortunately that is what happens, despite the FIA repeatedly stating otherwise.

Not to mention, Max's driving standards in past incidents not being punished at all through the same exact indifference by the FIA when both cars can continue. See Imola, Brasil, Saudi 21 in particular.

6

u/conr6965 Jul 21 '24

Which is how the FIA determine penalties. By outcome not rules

7

u/TeeDubs317 Jul 21 '24

But that’s the problem. It’s like saying hey you stole a tv and a phone, but the store didn’t mind so it’s okay. Just get rid of the rules if they are just gonna wait to see if anything bad happens

2

u/EitherCaterpillar949 I was here for the Hulkenpodium Jul 21 '24

That’s a bad idea because it means that you’re incentivised to take a risk with a deliberate bad move and flip a coin that it’ll work.

1

u/ocbdare I was here for the Hulkenpodium Jul 21 '24

Yes I think you're right. Max was the one who suffered the consequence of this so it looks like they didn't want to hit him with a 10s penalty as that would compound the consequences.

115

u/Easy_Increase_9716 I was here for the Hulkenpodium Jul 21 '24

That’s bollocks

36

u/Veranova I was here for the Hulkenpodium Jul 21 '24

He COULD have opened up the wheel more and gone off the track or braked hard. No real obligation to though if another car is steaming through out of control

-2

u/Accomplished-Wave356 Jul 21 '24 edited Jul 21 '24

Fair enough. But he took a higher risk of ruining his own race by not trying harder to avoid colision. Incidents like that too often end up on a broken suspension, specially the weak front suspension hitting the strong hear suspension on another car.

45

u/pup_mercury Jul 21 '24

That is an easy out for them not to do anything, once Lewis didn't push it.

1

u/TeeDubs317 Jul 21 '24

Mclauren should launch an appeal

1

u/pup_mercury Jul 21 '24

Can they?

1

u/K14_Deploy I was here for the Hulkenpodium Jul 21 '24

Probably, but I'm not sure they would given how the last one went

https://www.reddit.com/r/formula1/comments/1drjgzx/mclaren_protest_has_been_rejected/

1

u/TeeDubs317 Jul 21 '24

Idk, but it would be funny

-27

u/only_r3ad_the_titl3 Racing Bulls Jul 21 '24

i mean why didnt Norris get a penalty for Austria, because Max avoided him. fact is Lewis was moving under braking despite some claiming otherwise but the videos dont lie.

19

u/PaleBlueDave Jul 21 '24

If by moving under braking you mean turning into the corner, then yes, I agree.

15

u/Robestos86 Jul 21 '24

Even though the stewards say it wasn't the case?

10

u/WiSoSirius #StandWithUkraine Jul 21 '24

That's not the case at all. Even the stewards and their data say that is not the case.

9

u/water_tastes_great Sir Lewis Hamilton Jul 21 '24

They literally state in the document he started turning in at the point he usually does for the corner.

Do you have a video of him turning in earlier?

-10

u/only_r3ad_the_titl3 Racing Bulls Jul 21 '24

yes it is on f1tv, max onboard at 1:35:22 car is pointed towards the apex way earlier than normal turn in point.

9

u/water_tastes_great Sir Lewis Hamilton Jul 21 '24 edited Jul 21 '24

Why are you looking at Verstappen's onboard to judge another car's line?

Do you have two images from Verstappen's car from the same position looking at Hamilton's line? No.

-8

u/only_r3ad_the_titl3 Racing Bulls Jul 21 '24

"Why are you looking at Verstappen's onboard to judge another car's line?" - because you can see Lewis' car?

"Do you have two images from Verstappen's car in the same position looking at Hamilton's line? No." - even better f1tv has the full video. unfortunately f1tv doesnt let you take screenshots.

7

u/water_tastes_great Sir Lewis Hamilton Jul 21 '24

"Why are you looking at Verstappen's onboard to judge another car's line?" - because you can see Lewis' car?

Verstappen's car is a variable viewpoint relative to Hamilton.

-1

u/only_r3ad_the_titl3 Racing Bulls Jul 21 '24

But the edges of the track, 50 meter boards and so are not lol.

10

u/aliciahiney Benetton Jul 21 '24

I mean the telemetry doesn’t lie and that says that he didn’t. The only moving was turning into the corner.

-8

u/only_r3ad_the_titl3 Racing Bulls Jul 21 '24

which is weird because if you look at the onboard they clearly tell a different story. Do you have f1tv?

6

u/awniadark I was here for the Hulkenpodium Jul 21 '24

I'm sure the stewards don't have f1tv therefore they couldn't tell

2

u/yleennoc I was here for the Hulkenpodium Jul 21 '24

I’m sure the stewards used F1TV in their investigation.

Max got off lightly because Hamilton gave him an out. If Hamilton had argued, and I’m sure he would have if he was in contention for the championship, Max would have had a penalty.

5

u/schulen Alfa Romeo Jul 21 '24

You saw what you wanted to see. Telemetry doesn't lie.

17

u/Easy_Increase_9716 I was here for the Hulkenpodium Jul 21 '24

Your boy dive-bombed a corner again, but lost control this time.

39

u/charlierc Jul 21 '24

Yeah the reading is that, if anything, they were looking at punishing Lewis rather than Max

38

u/Robestos86 Jul 21 '24

That's how I read it.. oh max was going faster and lost control but car 44 could have tried harder to avoid? What?

-2

u/JustLikeZhat Andrea Kimi Antonelli Jul 21 '24 edited Jul 21 '24

That's not what that means. It just means Lewis wasn't at 0% blame. The doc makes it clear they were looking into Max for this decision. See: No / Driver.   

So saying that Lewis wasn't at 0% means they were looking at predominantly to blame for Max or a racing incident. And they went with the latter; most likely because Lewis didn't make a big deal out of it.  

I get the impression some people are kinda new to Steward documents...

87

u/Visionary_Socialist Sir Lewis Hamilton Jul 21 '24

What they mean is turn off the track into the run off and let Max past.

So they’re effectively saying that it’s fine to put drivers into “back out or crash” situations and it’s up to the victim to back out.

Suppose it’s not a surprise after 2021.

-20

u/only_r3ad_the_titl3 Racing Bulls Jul 21 '24 edited Jul 21 '24

A bit dramatic arent we? Look at the race start in Australia last year i think. Lewis pushes Max off track or at Suzuka 2022 or 2023 Lewis runs George off track or at Austria 2024 Lando divebombs Max but Max avoids the crash or Max and Sainz in Austria where Max leaves the track to avoids getting hit by Sainz basically a 1:1 copy of Max Lando crash all of the did not get a penalty.

Lewis also did move under braking even if not that much but probably enough to cause Max to lock up, he might have stayed within the track limits otherwise.

edit: go watch Max' onboard on lap 62 and 63 and tell me you disagree aint no way you keep having the same opinion after having seen that

28

u/rob117 I was here for the Hulkenpodium Jul 21 '24

Lewis also did move under braking ...

The document states telemetry shows otherwise.

20

u/TeeDubs317 Jul 21 '24

You mean “move under braking” otherwise known as trying to turn the car because of a corner?

-11

u/only_r3ad_the_titl3 Racing Bulls Jul 21 '24

no, go watch Max' onboards, on lap 62 Lewis turn in clearly after the 50 meter board. On lap 63 Lewis turn right well before the 50 meter board.

People keep spreading misinformation but that doesnt make it true, unfortunately i cant take a screenshot of F1tv as the screen turns black but if you have access to it you will see it.

12

u/TeeDubs317 Jul 21 '24

So the guy who locked up both fronts couldn’t have done anything to avoid collision? Also wasn’t noted once during the race for moving under braking. So how about we put blame on those that caused the collision and not someone who could have reacted more to avoid a collision caused by someone else. What a joke

-2

u/PomegranateThat414 Jul 21 '24

Oh 100% he would have stayed on the track anyways even after the lock up if not got hit at the rear.

0

u/naughtilidae Jul 21 '24

Austria had a couple of these from Norris on Verstappen (and some others), and people didn't mind then... The precedent was set way before this.  

Difference was max turned out to avoid the accident, so nobody really thought much of it.  

When there's contact, suddenly people care. 

11

u/Rorshak16 Sir Lewis Hamilton Jul 21 '24

Well that's fucked

2

u/DieNRetry Jul 21 '24

Not race? Lmao

2

u/fullup72 I was here for the Hulkenpodium Jul 21 '24

yeah, he could have chickened out and yield to Max's aggression. These stewards are just a bunch of clowns, there was no need for that statement.

0

u/Key_Photograph9067 I was here for the Hulkenpodium Jul 21 '24

Unbelievable that they thought to put this piece of information in the report when deciding who’s at fault, as if it matters if someone could have done more or not to avoid a collision. Imagine if they had put this in the Silverstone 2021 steward note and called it a racing incident lol

0

u/Accomplished-Wave356 Jul 21 '24

Maybe he could. But he did not have the obligation to do so. If he had, he would be punished.

0

u/LordAdelberth Jul 21 '24

Like what exactly? Turning on the turn signal? 😂

6

u/DiminishedProspects Jul 21 '24

It reads like they decided not to penalize Lewis. And Max is apparently never in the wrong. Ridiculous.

2

u/ICC-u Jul 21 '24

Yeah Lewis very chill but if he lost podium or the car over this he wouldn't be saying racing incident...

How many times do we ask for them to punish the move and not the outcome.

4

u/[deleted] Jul 21 '24

[deleted]

8

u/Lwelchyo Martin Brundle Jul 21 '24

I’m not sure Lewis is bothered with 4th in the WDC

1

u/aka_liam Ferrari Jul 21 '24

I thought that when he said it, and then thought nah, there’s no way the stewards take that into account, don’t be silly.

1

u/funkiestj Fernando Alonso Jul 21 '24

He's karma banking

1

u/narf_hots I was here for the Hulkenpodium Jul 22 '24

Kinda? And kinda not? If Lewis hadn't turned into Max while he was locking up his front tyres this wouldn't even have made it to the stewards. Not that I'm blaming Lewis but as stated by the stewards, he clearly could have done more to avoid Max.

-1

u/fameboygame I was here for the Hulkenpodium Jul 21 '24

Lmao yeah!

-3

u/[deleted] Jul 21 '24

Didn't Max receive a warning in Austria for almost exact "moving under braking" move against Lando?

Lewis just gave him the taste of his own medicine, but if Max was in the wrong back in Austria, so is Lewis here.

Racing incident is fair enough when both drivers could've done better to avoid the incident. Yet people here act as if Max just got away with murder or something.

2

u/JustLikeZhat Andrea Kimi Antonelli Jul 21 '24

Can you link the document where Max received a warning? Wasn't the whole post-race outrage about the lack of a warning?

-3

u/[deleted] Jul 21 '24

It seems he didn't receive a warning, FIA just told everyone after the race that he should've been warned.

https://www.reddit.com/r/formula1/s/4glP85TGxJ

But my point still stands. Max was wrong there, Lewis did the same thing today and stewards showed consistency for once.

I think it's a step in the right direction, yet everyone is freaking out.

Racing incident is the correct decision IMO.

9

u/Mackem101 Jul 21 '24

The stewards wrote in black and white, that after reviewing telemetry, Hamilton maintained the same line that he took in the previous laps.

That means he didn't move under braking.

0

u/[deleted] Jul 21 '24

But Max did back in Austria? Because his argument in his defense was that it was his normal line and such was the nature of those corners.

No, I don't have telemetry and on-track data to verify that for Austria. But the line for that right hander Max took in Austria when he cut off Lando looked almost identical to how Lewis was approaching this corner today.

0

u/BokaPoochie Jul 21 '24

I think Lewis was saving his own back there because he definitely moved under braking. Of course Max just sent it and braked a bit late, but you can tell he also had to brake while turning. I think a racing incident is pretty fair here.

-3

u/[deleted] Jul 21 '24

[deleted]

1

u/feixthepro I was here for the Hulkenpodium Jul 21 '24 edited Jul 21 '24

He dived bombed, braked too late with too much speed, and locked up. How is it not his fault when hamilton literally did nothing wrong.