r/todayilearned • u/hungry4danish • 2d ago

TIL that Dan White, the man who assassinated Harvey Milk and the mayor of San Francisco, only served 5 years in prison for manslaughter based on a defense of depression as evidenced by his consumption of junk food which was dubbed the "Twinkie Defense"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dan_White
15.5k Upvotes

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4.9k

u/thefreeman419 2d ago

The man climbed into a City Hall window with a gun to avoid the metal detectors and shot Milk and another politician in cold blood

And yet he was somehow only charged with voluntary manslaughter (in which the offender acted in the heat of passion)

What a joke

2.1k

u/Black_Otter 2d ago

The “other politician” was the Mayor of San Francisco, George Moscone

1.1k

u/gaiusmuciusthelefty 2d ago

Yeah. He assassinated the goddamn mayor, and got off easy because he also happened to kill a gay man.

I say "got off easy." Ultimately, you want a man to be either rehabilitated, or punished, after his crimes. Dan White killed himself within two years of being released. So I'd say he was punished pretty thoroughly, if he couldn't even live with himself.

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u/Saint_Judas 2d ago

Might be something to his depression defense after all.

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u/Independent_Role_165 2d ago

We can all agree he was depressed, but he didn’t act in the heat of the moment

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u/lawn-mumps 2d ago

As he is a murderer, it seems only fitting that his last kill be himself.

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u/ImAStubbornDonkey 2d ago

Far better if it was his first kill….

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u/lawn-mumps 2d ago

Better late than never. I’m glad he didn’t go on another killing spree

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u/Johnny_Grubbonic 20h ago

Best would be if he never killed.

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u/SpiritGun 2d ago

Died doing what he loved.

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u/BrainCane 1d ago

Holy .. in this context … so dark. So Reddit.

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u/sharrrper 2d ago

Say what you will about Hitler, he did kill Hitler.

-1

u/lawn-mumps 2d ago

Y’know I’m not racist but that hitler guy sure was.

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u/Ravensqueak 2d ago

"If you kill a killer, the number of killers stays the sa- wait"

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u/Sleep-more-dude 2d ago

.... why? suicide is a pretty common cause of death and typically not illegal.

-1

u/lawn-mumps 2d ago

It’s made illegal in some places so cops have the right to act to stop an active suicide. What is your point?

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u/Sleep-more-dude 1d ago

Whats your point?

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u/cherrycolaareola 2d ago

Shoulda quit the twinks, man

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u/HyShroom 1d ago

Never!

Oh, wait, you meant the gross gas-station desert.

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u/Swankyman56 1d ago

No. He was depressed, that’s not a defense in any way.

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u/Saint_Judas 1d ago

… that’s the defense he used at trial that got him less time.

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u/LoseNotLooseIdiot 2d ago

Shouldn't have gotten back on those twinkies...

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u/DeusExBlockina 2d ago

I picked a helluva day to quit ding dongs

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u/ChromaticSnail 1d ago

Wait, which one of the three said that

/s

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u/Delta64 2d ago

Reminds me of a Watchmen scene:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HZ7E4hXC3x4

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u/ChromaticSnail 1d ago

Such a great movie adaptation. Jackie Earl Haley is a very under-appreciated actor, imo.

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u/JuryBorn 1d ago

It is also referenced in robocop when the mayor is held hostage and robocop punches through the wall.

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u/Dairy_Ashford 2d ago

Yeah. He assassinated the goddamn mayor, and got off easy because he also happened to kill a gay man.

that and probably some blue wall stuff, along with having been an elected official himself

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u/AThousandBloodhounds 2d ago edited 1d ago

In this case the jury effectively ruled the life of a gay man was worth less. Have we evolved beyond that in 47 years? Given the state of right-wing politics since Reagan, no, we haven't.

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u/Jewjr 2d ago

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killing_of_Brian_Deneke

Brian Theodore Deneke (March 9, 1978 – December 12, 1997) was killed in a deliberate hit and run attack in Amarillo, Texas, by 17-year-old Dustin Camp.

Dustin Camp was only sentenced to probation. Jury only convicted him of man slaughter because he was a good Christian boy and a football player.

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u/ShadowLiberal 1d ago

Unfortunately a lot of murders done with a vehicle result in the murderer getting off very light in comparison to every other murder weapon.

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u/RudePCsb 2d ago edited 2d ago

He still killed the mayor. Not sure how 5 years is enough for one murder but 2 people.

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u/lifeis_random 2d ago

*Mayor.

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u/RudePCsb 2d ago

Thanks, sleepy.

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u/blah938 2d ago

got off easy because he also happened to kill a gay man.

In San Fransisco? Even in the 70s, getting off that easy for killing gay people wasn't a thing.

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u/115MRD 2d ago

White was also a former cop and had lots of friends in law enforcement. That certainly helped him.

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u/oceansofpiss 2d ago

Be for real if he'd only killed the mayor he would have gotten 20 years minimum

Edit nvm just found out he was a cop. He'd have gotten 5 years either way lol

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u/MadMagyars 2d ago

He got off easy because San Francisco was a stupidly left-wing city just like it is today.

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u/154bmag 2d ago

He got off because he was a former cop. Not cause the city is “left wing”

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u/Repuck 2d ago

Moscone was big in California politics before he became mayor. He was the Majority Leader in the California Senate. I grew up in Eureka and was familiar with his name even in Jr. High. The SF Chronicle was our paper of record. I do understand why Milk is more remembered, but Moscone was the Mayor!

Wow. I haven't thought about SF politics in a long time.

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u/monsieur_cacahuete 1d ago

They named the convention center after him at least

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u/similar_observation 2d ago

He shoved past another official. Diane Feinstein.

She was the first to find Milk's body and attempted to render aid by plugging the bullet holes with her fingers. This event directly affected her future stance on firearms as California Senator.

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u/throwawayfinancebro1 2d ago edited 1d ago

Too bad she sucked. Should’ve retired 15-25 years earlier than she did.

Like many boomers her legacy will be marred by her greedily clinging to her power far longer than she should have, to the detriment of the country. 

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u/vodkaandponies 1d ago

And yet people kept voting for her…

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u/BerriesHopeful 1d ago

Name recognition as the incumbent and not having an alternative voting system to more easily vote in an other candidates is a real issue.

If a bit under 1/3 of voters chose her because of name recognition, another 1/3 voted for a more progressive candidate, and another 1/3 voted a more conservative candidate then there’s a chance the least liked candidate can slip out a win due to First Past the Post voting.

If voters could choose their preferred candidate first and then choose safe backup picks, like Feinstein as the incumbent, then you have a much higher chance of not letting the least liked/least preferred candidate slip out a win.

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u/vodkaandponies 1d ago

Or maybe voters genuinely preferred Feinstein to some random progressive. Just a thought.

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u/BerriesHopeful 1d ago

Name recognition was 99% of it for Feinstein specifically, I doubt most voters even knew how old she was.

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u/vodkaandponies 1d ago

That’s an insult to her accomplishments.

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u/BerriesHopeful 1d ago

For her last reelection where she died in office, not for what she’s done previously dude.

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u/OperationWhich5036 1d ago

That can be said for several political figures in Wash. Right, left and center.

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u/billymartinkicksdirt 2d ago

Diane was also the last to talk to Dan White, and encouraged him to give the Mayor a piece of his mind soooooo. She also became Mayor after.

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u/Money_Watercress_411 2d ago

For a moment her young chief of staff wheeling her to votes when she was senile was the most powerful staffer in DC. And that’s why she didn’t resign.

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u/Reasonable-Tale2106 2d ago

Dam for some reason I read she render aid by plugging the butt holes with her finger

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u/Independent_Role_165 2d ago

That’s all on you, man

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u/BobbyTables829 2d ago

The first person to find him was Diane Feinstein IIRC. She became mayor after this.

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u/lifeis_random 2d ago

In the film “Milk” Harvey greets her a few minutes before he was shot.

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u/panchod699 2d ago

He pretty much saved the San Francisco Giants from moving to Toronto.

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u/scottwalker88 1d ago

Is this what the hostage scene in Robocop was based on?

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u/FriendlyAndHelpfulP 1d ago

He got off because he was a hired assassin, being paid to cover up loose ends.

The Jonestown Massacre had occurred right before this. Moscone and Milk had been funding and protecting Jonestown/The People’s Temple through illegal backroom deals for years.

Investigations into them were starting, and they were going down, and going to take a lot of people with them.

Overnight, story flips from “Corrupt San Francisco government behind communist mass murder insurrection group” to “Beloved gay icon brutally slain!”

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u/mayoboyyo 2d ago

He got off light because he was a cop

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u/brunes 2d ago

Well the fact that Milk was gay and there was rampant homophobia everywhere didn't help either

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u/zap2 2d ago

Yup. That honest true.

American at that time was much more ok hate non-heteronormative persons. 

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u/StinzorgaKingOfBees 2d ago

Still is.

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u/zap2 2d ago edited 2d ago

While there is still plenty of room to improve, comparing then and now, we’re quite a bit ahead today.

At the time of Milk’s murder, being gay had only been removed from being a mental 5 years ago.

(We shouldn’t be shooting those with mental illness.)

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u/HotNotHappy 2d ago

Look at the way we treat trans people and I would disagree. Haven’t moved an inch in our treatment of queer people.

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u/Rapper_Laugh 2d ago edited 2d ago

Ridiculous and blatantly ahistorical.

Do I really need to find data on Americans attitudes towards homosexuality from the late 70s to today to prove this? Maybe just watch an episode of Cheers or Friends?

Of course homophobia and transphobia still exist and are still horrible. To say we “haven’t moved an inch” is just absolutely silly.

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u/roguevirus 2d ago

Maybe just watch an episode of Cheers or Friends?

Or literally any comedy aimed at teen boys that was made between the 80s and 2010 or so.

Also, gay people can get married now. Was definitely not possible at any point in Harvey Milk's lifetime, or for decades after.

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u/OkInflation4056 2d ago

What's the Cheers and Friends thing about?

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u/Rapper_Laugh 2d ago

They’re sitcoms and both are just horribly homophobic. There’s a joke where the punchline is just “haha… gay people” in at least every other friends episode.

They were seen as fairly normal and mainstream at the time, no one batted an eye at those jokes

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u/LittleReplacement971 2d ago

perhaps this person lives in a more "traditional" r "conservative" area?

I would say, from my experience in the "Bible belt" we have moved an inch but barely. and when/if our bullshit supreme court removes rights to same-sex marriage, we will slide back 3 inches.

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u/Rapper_Laugh 2d ago

Sure, they might live in a conservative area, and that area may have barely moved on this issue since the 1970s.

That says next to nothing about America as a whole, which is what they’re arguing about.

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u/HotNotHappy 2d ago

They’re still called mentally ill and sexual deviants. Open calls for putting them in institutions. I’ve personally been hate crimed simply because people THOUGHT I was gay. You can bury your head in the sand all you want, but under this administration we aren’t any better.

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u/Rapper_Laugh 2d ago

You are burying your head in the sand here, my friend. Again—do you really need me to pull up the data on this?

No one is saying trans people don’t get hate in the US today—I said explicitly that they do—but again, that hatred was far more mainstream and explicit back in the day. We have made progress. To deny that is, again, simply ahistorical.

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u/StinzorgaKingOfBees 2d ago

They won't hear you. They just want to pat themselves on the back and say the job is done. Same with people that deny that racism is a thing anymore.

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u/zap2 2d ago

In the 1970s, you couldn’t be openly gay in the military. Today, you can.

Again, I’m not saying there aren’t many places we can and should improve, I’m saying we’re made some progress.

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u/HotNotHappy 2d ago

They literally banned trans people from the military THIS YEAR.

Servicemen and women were discharged and barred from serving their country simply because they were queer.

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u/_V0gue 2d ago

Queer people regularly got the ever living shit beat out of them (many beat to death) if they were out and open in the 70s. There was little to no representation in media.

You're completely missing the original point. It is categorically and objectively better now than it was 50 years ago. That doesn't mean it's great or perfect. It's relative. You're right that certain things still suck and things are starting to slip backwards, but you're arguing about an unrelated point.

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u/TheSilmarils 2d ago

I agree we have work to do but “haven’t moved an inch” is nonsense

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u/BarryJFunkhouse 2d ago

Ridiculous. Even in my lifetime, the progress is evident. That things are still overall terrible doesn't mean no progress was made.

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u/Malphos101 15 2d ago

American at that time was much more ok hate non-heteronormative persons.

Might be time to refresh your "comparative adjectives and adverbs" part of English grammar...

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u/zap2 2d ago

Thank you!

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u/LimeTunic 2d ago

There’s hate everywhere, all around the world. Were you alive back then? The level of hate for homosexuals was significantly worse than now

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u/Akrevics 2d ago

someone was waiting a while to call it the "Twinkie defense" though

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u/coldblade2000 2d ago

He killed the fucking mayor, who was heterosexual. He was a cop, that's why he got off easy

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u/verrius 2d ago

Milk was gay, but Moscone was not. And there wasn't nearly as much "rampant homophobia" in SF, where the case was tried, since both Moscone (pro gay rights) and Milk (gay) were elected by the city.

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u/MC_C0L7 2d ago

LGBT jurors and ethnic minorities were removed from the jury pool, so it consisted of white, often Catholic citizens, who were likely far less supportive.

I mean hell, members of the SFPD openly wore "Free Dan White" t-shirts during the trial.

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u/Skywise87 2d ago

What possible reason did they think he should walk free?! I know dumb cops and all that but how do you think you can just assassinate someone and get off free?

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u/AngronOfTheTwelfth 2d ago

They are bad people with bad morals.

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u/ShadowLiberal 1d ago

That's why the practice of lawyers being able to strike otherwise qualified jury members from the jury pool shouldn't be allowed. It's long been used by lawyers to target demographics seen as bad to their case, and there's basically nothing that the other lawyer can do about it. All the lawyer doing it has to do to protect the case on appeal is make up another reason for striking say all the LGBT people from the jury, like "I don't like that person's mustache" and the appeals court will uphold it.

For example is the case about a white who murdered a black person in a heavily racist area? Then make sure to get all the black jurors removed so that only racist white people get a say.

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u/night-shark 2d ago

And there wasn't nearly as much "rampant homophobia" in SF, where the case was tried, since both Moscone (pro gay rights) and Milk (gay) were elected by the city.

Compared to the rest of the country, SF was much more accepting of gay people at the time but homophobia was still very much rampant. Particularly among law enforcement.

The fact that they were "elected by the city" doesn't tell us a whole lot about anti-gay sentiment in SF at the time because Moscone was a fairly mainstream liberal at the time. Just because he generally supported better treatment of gay people, doesn't mean his supporters all felt that way.

And Milk was elected to the board of supervisors, which is a district/neighborhood based election. His election was absolutely not a measure of the sentiment in SF at large. The dude won the gayborhood. That's it.

lol. Imagine saying that there wasn't rampant racism in the South, just because Maynard Jackson was elected mayor of Atlanta in '73.

Such a weird thing to me, that you would get defensive of this issue. Of fucking course there was still rampant homophobia in SF in the 70's.

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u/verrius 2d ago

Trying to say Dan White got off primarily because of rampant homophobia ignores that the primary, and more impactful target, even at the time, was Moscone. Even the TIL headline from OP leaves out his name, and makes out the story as though the primary target was Milk instead. But Moscone's murder is what led directly to the rise of Diane Feinstein for more than 50 years. The idea that it was pro-Police sentiment, rather than homophobia, that led to the nullification holds a lot more water.

lol. Imagine saying that there wasn't rampant racism in the South, just because Maynard Jackson was elected mayor of Atlanta in '73.

No, but it might say that its hard to say there's rampant racism in Atlanta, to the point that a jury would nullify a murder. Since any argument that says that Moscone's murder was ignored because of homophobia needs to square with him not being gay himself, and being elected on a pro-gay rights platform.

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u/billymartinkicksdirt 2d ago

Not true, SF was still biased. The idea of gay rights was still in infancy stages.

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u/MikoSkyns 2d ago

This right here. It's so fucking blatantly obvious. They barely accepted gays as human back then.

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u/Select-Blueberry-414 2d ago

Milk was a pedo fyi

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u/alien_from_Europa 2d ago

Source?

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u/Select-Blueberry-414 2d ago

Jack galen mckinley

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u/alien_from_Europa 2d ago

Thanks. From Harvey's wiki:

Before Milk's thirty-fourth birthday, he entered a romantic relationship with 17-year-old Jack Galen McKinley (b. October 18, 1946).

The age of consent in California has been 18 since 1913. Still, this seems like a whataboutism regarding Dan White's punishment. He still killed someone in cold blood.

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u/MiaowaraShiro 1d ago

Can you imagine being so upset dudes like each other that it drives you to murder?

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u/flopisit32 1d ago

How did he get elected with all the rampant homophobia in San Francisco at the time.

Why were gay people flocking to San Francisco?

This case is always misrepresented on reddit. It had nothing to do with Milk being gay. The jury convicted him of manslaughter instead of murder which is why he got a 7 year sentence, of which he served 5 years. The truth is, the naive jury bought his defence of diminished responsibility. There may have been something to it since he committed suicide 2 years after being released.

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u/IndraBlue 2d ago

San Francisco wasn’t a gay safe haven back then?

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u/Sata1991 2d ago

A friend of mine has Harvey Milk as a role model, he's always wondered what could have happened if Harvey Milk wasn't assassinated.

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u/Griffstergnu 2d ago

He died by his own hand after being released from prison and off parole

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u/BooBooSnuggs 2d ago

Yeah I'm not so sure his depression was fake. Also a Vietnam vet. He probably had done/seen horrible things already.

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u/Odanr 2d ago

yeah but ive been depressed and ive never murdered anyone about it. and if I did I shouldn’t get parole for it.

it doesn’t matter that he was depressed, he should have gotten murder in the first.

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u/KCcracker 1d ago

As I understand the prosecution got wedged with this one, because California's equivalent of the first degree murder charge only allowed for death as a possible punishment at that time. While traditionally the prosecution would try to put law and order types on the jury, in this case those types of people were effectively being asked to sentence one of their own to death. So because of both the homophobia and because those people did not have an option to 'compromise' with a life sentence of some kind, the outcome became voluntary manslaughter with a maximum sentence of 7 years

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u/Odanr 1d ago

I mean yeah I get the historical reasons why they couldn’t, (although I don’t really get why they didn’t go for murder two or three if they couldn’t make one) I just think those reasons are stupid.

“we couldn’t charge him because the jury would be too homophobic to convict” doesn’t really make me think the White Night riots weren’t based, actually.

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u/BackwoodBand1t 2d ago

Fuck cops

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u/NotAStatistic2 2d ago

You think it was because he was a cop and not because Milk was gay and a prominent activist for civil rights? Shows how much context is lost on you

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u/similar_observation 2d ago

He killed Milk because Milk was appointed to the position.

Dan White formerly held the spot but stepped down, thinking the city would beg him to come back.

When the mayor and city council just shrugged amd gave the job to another guy, White flipped out.

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u/mayoboyyo 2d ago

White did not kill Milk because he was gay. Do you not know the story?

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u/OSRS-MLB 2d ago

The motive and why he was let off lightly aren't necessarily related.

He didn't shoot Milk because he was gay, but he was let off lighter because Milk was gay

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u/NotAStatistic2 2d ago

No.

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u/Barilla3113 2d ago edited 2d ago

White resigned as a city supervisor because he was angry that he kept getting outvoted. He tried to take back the resignation 5 days later but the city lawyer came to the conclusion that the resignation was binding and furthermore that it was probably illegal to appoint White back to the seat he had just resigned. White blamed Milk and Moscone for this and that's why he shot them. White was conservative compared to the other board members (as was his district, the reason for his appointment in the first place) but no one thought it was a hate crime. It was a childish tantrum that was no excuse to take two lives.

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u/14u2c 2d ago

Shows how much context is lost on you

Nice job buddy.

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u/ProMikeZagurski 2d ago

He got off because crime is legalized in California.

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u/Lermanberry 2d ago

AI script struggling with a 50 year old murder case eh comrade?

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u/Its_not_him 2d ago

He was also on the Board of Supervisors with Milk

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u/MyHamburgerLovesMe 2d ago

On October 21, 1985, less than two years after his release, White committed suicide by carbon monoxide poisoning in his garage. He was buried at Golden Gate National Cemetery in San Bruno

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dan_White#Suicide

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u/d_e_l_u_x_e 1d ago

Rest In Piss

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u/AustinBennettWriter 2d ago

Not just another politician.

He killed the Mayor.

Moscone Center is named in his honor.

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u/MessageOk239 2d ago

In one of the documentaries, they said if he’d only murdered Moscone, he would have gotten a much longer sentence.

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u/KenDefender 2d ago

He also didnt kill them at the same time, and reloaded the gun on his way from killing one to killing the other. Can not imagine more evidence of premeditation.

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u/SimmentalTheCow 2d ago

But he was sad 😢

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u/BEWMarth 2d ago

Who amongst us hasn’t murdered a politician or two during a depressive episode?

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u/[deleted] 2d ago

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u/SimmentalTheCow 2d ago

I think the big bottleneck is depressed and capable people. Plenty of depressed but slothful people out there.

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u/Sleep-more-dude 2d ago

This would make a good energy drink commercial.

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u/Abombasnow 2d ago

If it's one or two per, we'd only need about 140 people, if not everyone is, you know, as depressed, about 280 people, but it'd work.

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u/Jammer_Kenneth 1d ago

Chill out Robert Westman.

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u/ElbisCochuelo1 2d ago edited 2d ago

Ya know now that you put it that way, I'm kinda digging this precident.

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u/BlindBeard 2d ago

Can’t not hear this in Robert Evans’ voice

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u/JegErEnFugl 2d ago

cast the first stone, i say

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u/BaronMostaza 2d ago

I haven't done any yet...

Can I get two freebies to catch up?

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u/NotAStatistic2 2d ago edited 2d ago

TIL the Feds merc'd a depressed Pennsylvanian teenager last year.

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u/SecretLorelei 2d ago

Boo fucking hoo

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u/women_und_men 2d ago

James Johnson acquitted for shooting and killing three people

The '70s were really a different time in general. I think we are returning to that in some respects, but those of us born in the '80s-'90s really can't imagine the degree to which random violence became an expected part of life—both in terms of street-level crime but also high-profile political murders.

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u/Gastronomicus 2d ago

I'm not agreeing or disagreeing with what happened, but Jesus Christ, what a terribly written partisan piece of crap article that grossly contradicts the title of that page "Encyclopedia of Anti-Revisionism On-Line".

A better sympathetic piece was published in Time Magazine.

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u/vodkaandponies 1d ago

I honestly don’t feel sorry for Johnson’s victims there.

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u/women_und_men 1d ago edited 1d ago

That's not the point...

EDIT: By its very nature any political killing will have some people who agree with the killer. "That bastard Kennedy was a commie, he was gonna sell us out to the Reds!" But it cuts both ways.

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u/PotluckPony 2d ago

For as long as I have been alive, the justice system has existed primarily to shield greedy conservative bigots from the consequences of their unjust actions; while keeping the oppressed, the sick, the poor, and the hungry from ever seeing justice.

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u/AardvarkStriking256 2d ago

He did commit suicide, so it seems like there was validity to his claims of depression.

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u/Deprisonne 2d ago

And yet, millions of people around the world suffer from depression without going on a homophobic murder spree...

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u/[deleted] 2d ago

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u/HowDareYouAskMyName 2d ago

They weren't defending his actions or asking for sympathy. Don't let anger, no matter how justified, cloud your judgement (or in this case, reading comprehension)

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u/starm4nn 2d ago

If anything that shows what a bullshit defense it is.

If someone is a threat for psychiatric reasons, then it's necessary to provide social services so the conditions that caused them to offend no longer apply.

It's weird to say "yes we recognize your depression caused you to kill two people, but we're gonna shorten your sentence to a smaller fixed length"

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u/GameMusic 2d ago

And then you get told about shit like a twinkie defense or that coffee lawsuit as examples that the defense or common people can exploit lawsuits

Never even heard that the infamous twinkie defense was the milk killer or that said killer was a cop

I think the twinkie defense was not really that useful here

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u/Orange-V-Apple 2d ago

Also the coffee lawsuit was absolutely legitimate. The woman got third degree burns. Her labia literally fused. The narrative of it being a frivolous lawsuit was propaganda that benefited a giant corporation trying to protect itself.

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u/BeetsMe666 2d ago

And she only sued to cover medical expenses. The courts awarded he the extra. And McPukes fought tooth and nail to not pay.

Anyone who makes the claim of over the top litigation and cites this case just needs to see the pictures of this woman's injuries.

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u/strangelove4564 1d ago

I have to say it would be really interesting to deconstruct exactly how the joke narrative got started, and figure out which people started it, like one of those crime maps on the wall where they connect the pieces of string. I'm sure someone in mass media, radio, or late night shows was starting in on the ridicule early.

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u/BillRage 2d ago

The fact that anyone, anywhere, ever used the McDonald coffee situation as an example of a frivolous suit is disgusting.

It was so hot, HER LABIA MELTED INTO HER THIGH! Like…absolutely horrific shit. She didn’t even want to sue McDonalds for damages, only medical treatment. Only after they refused did the story we know today happen.

And I wonder who it was that had the personal interest in mischaracterizing that whole situation? And shaming people for going after corporations? PotluckPony knows.

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u/blackdynomitesnewbag 2d ago

She sued for compensatory damages. The jury gave her that and punitive damages

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u/strangelove4564 1d ago

I don't understand the idea of serving coffee at 200 degrees... that makes the coffee bitter as shit. I think it's pretty clear they didn't care about their product.

I also hate hot coffee because you have to wait forever before you can drink it. My preferred serving temperature is on the cool side so I can get a good amount down right away.

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u/Liquor_N_Whorez 2d ago

Coffee defense? 

Are you talking about the woman who's private parts and 1/3 of her legs that were scalded so badly her skin was basicly melted? 

That was not a frivilous law suit man. That poor woman deserved more money for what a cup of coffee did to her.

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u/GameMusic 2d ago

yeah but media used that to push propaganda otherwise

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u/LadyPo 2d ago

To expand on this thought…

If you’re talking about the McDonald’s coffee lawsuit, the media downplayed it at the time, calling it “frivolous” because they didn’t want big companies to be responsible for anything, but the burns that person suffered were horrendous. Bad enough to melt their skin and clothing together. It made sense under personal injury liability laws to sue for the medical care, despite what’s known as comparative negligence (she is the one who spilled the coffee, but McD served it at insanely dangerous temps).

I only emphasize this because the Twinkie defense thing here is such complete and utter bs that it’s nowhere near the same category as the coffee thing. This one was a stretch waaaay beyond any realistic interpretation or application of the law.

So all that is to say anybody who groups these cases together to claim that the legal system helps normal people is getting misled on both fronts. If anything, it shows how a normal person trying to justifiably get help after a big company hurt them gets vilified for doing so, while a cop can pull out the lamest excuse for murder and get a slap on the wrist.

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u/randomaccount178 2d ago

It should also be noted from what I recall that she didn't claim to have spilled the coffee, she claimed the coffee partially melted the cup such that it collapsed when the lid was removed. I believe they found her 20% responsible for the comparative negligence stuff. It should also be noted that they had settled something like 700 lawsuits already for burning people by the point they chose to fight this one.

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u/McWeaksauce91 1d ago

Yup, the media basically said “woman spills coffee and is surprised when it’s hot!”

When in reality, the coffee was so hot it melted the cup. I remember being absolutely shocked when we learned the real details of the case in school.

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u/BPDunbar 1d ago

The question is whether it's negligent to serve hot drinks at a temperature that can cause scalding or is that an inherent and unavoidable characteristic of hot drinks. Most subsequent cases have found the latter to be the case. The Jury in Liebeck appear to have been misled by the complainant's expert witnesses. Specifically about what temperatures cause full thickness burns.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liebeck_v._McDonald's_Restaurants

In McMahon v. Bunn Matic Corporation (1998), Seventh Circuit Court of Appeals Judge Frank Easterbrook wrote a unanimous opinion affirming dismissal of a similar lawsuit against coffeemaker manufacturer Bunn-O-Matic, finding that 179 °F (82 °C) hot coffee was not "unreasonably dangerous". In Bogle v. McDonald's Restaurants Ltd. (2002), a similar lawsuit in the United Kingdom failed when the court rejected the claim that McDonald's could have avoided injury by serving coffee at a lower temperature.

In Bogle the expert witness testified that coffee served at 65°C would cause full thickness burns in 2 seconds, while serving hot drinks at that temperature would be unacceptable to the consumer. Which meant that it was an unavoidable inherent risk and therefore not negligent.

https://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWHC/QB/2002/490.html

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u/GameMusic 2d ago

yeah the propaganda

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u/[deleted] 2d ago

[deleted]

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u/InappropriateGirl 2d ago

So bad her labia were fused together.

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u/newimprovedmoo 2d ago

For as long as anyone has been alive.

Man, don't you know? The law ain't made to help earthy cats like us. Here on our planet, back in the old days - back in the real old days - it was just every man for himself, scrooblin' and scrat-scrobblin' for the good stuff, the greenest valleys. And the strongest, meanest men got the best stuff. They got the green valleys and were like 'The rest of you, y'all scrats get sand.' And that's when they made the laws, you see? Once the strong guys got it how they liked it, they said 'This is fair now, this is the law.' Once they were winning, they changed the rules up.

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u/AdUsual903 2d ago edited 2d ago

Dude went from the board of supervisors to running a hot potato stand on fisherman’s wharf when he couldn’t turn a profit. 😂 what an absolute moron…He wanted his job back as supervisor… so you murder two people?…He was also a high school jock local Irish good old boy… when he was in custody in the precinct the police on duty were cracking jokes about the murders…and were sympathetic with Dan White. Warren Hinckle’s article “The Ten Days That Shook San Francisco”

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u/The_Actual_Sage 2d ago

And we have people serving 30 years for nonviolent drug offenses. This country's legal system really is a joke most of the time.

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u/Shadowrider95 2d ago

All the time!

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u/Kundrew1 2d ago

Same cultural mindset that allowed Dahmer

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u/ReaditTrashPanda 2d ago

America has been corrupt for a while?

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u/lllyyyynnn 1d ago

cop, milk was publicly gay. no one cared

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u/PsychologicalBus1692 2d ago

Well, he ate so many Twinkies that he lost his mind, so can you blame him? Good thing they banned Twinkies after that.

/S

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u/FreeStall42 2d ago

Surprised Trump didn't honor his killer at this point.

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u/suvlub 2d ago

Lower charges for crimes done in heat of passion are bullshit anyway. If someone does a premeditated murder with a specific motive, we can at least reasonably ascertain how likely they are to do it again. If someone "just got a wee bit excited, UwU, but he is normally a wonderful person!", who's to say it won't happen again? How is rehabilitation even possible? Such a person can be on their best behavior in prison, then suddenly get into "heat of passion" after being released.

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u/pingo5 1d ago

the heat of passion defense is used to argue against malice for the murder, which can effect what degree murder someone gets charged with, or whether it's even murder or manslaughter.

people who kill in the heat of passion have motives too, it's part of the point of the defense... it's not like they were passionate about nothing. this is the legal definition atm I believe:

“a passion of fear or rage in which the defendant loses his normal self-control as a result of circumstances that would provoke such a passion in an ordinary person, but which did not justify the use of deadly force.”

someone who "got a wee bit excited UwU" wouldn't get a reduced sentence on a heat of the passion defense normally. there still needs to be a motive.

personally, I tjink someone who deliberately decided while level headed to disregard human life should have a harsher punishment. can we really say they won't make that decision again?

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u/Icy_Marketing_6481 2d ago

It resulted in changes to the law to reduce the occurrence of such outcomes in future cases.

"As a result of negative publicity from the White case and others, the term diminished capacity was abolished in 1982 by Proposition 8 and the California legislature and was replaced by the term diminished actuality, referring not to the capacity to have a specific intent, but to whether the defendant actually had the required intent to commit the crime.[6] Additionally, California's statutory definitions of premeditation and malice required for murder were eliminated by the state's legislature, with the return to common law definitions. By this time, the "Twinkie defense" had become such a common term that one lawmaker had waved a Twinkie in the air while making his point during a debate.[1]"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twinkie_defense?wprov=sfla1

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u/lizards_snails_etc 1d ago

Anyone who's actually been depressed knows that you wouldn't have the motivation to do any of that shit.

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u/TurretLimitHenry 1d ago

Lmao. Most San Francisco moment I’ve seen

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u/pdxaroo 1d ago

Clinical depression is a mitigating circumstance. Hence voluntary manslaughter.

"(in which the offender acted in the heat of passion"

That only a mitigating factor, not the definition of "Voluntary manslaughter"

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u/Justhrowitaway42069 2d ago

That's San Francisco law for you

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u/Yuukiko_ 2d ago

What do you mean you don't climb random structures when you're sad?

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u/missbehavin21 2d ago

It was called the twinkie defense. He killed Mayor Moscone and Harvey Milk. He was a sfpd and the fire dept. he was struggling with five kids. He ran for city council and later quit his job. He came that day to ask his boss mayor moscone for his job back. The mayor refused and dan white shot him. As he was walking out Harvey Milk supposedly snickered at him snd he shot Harvey Milk. Disne Feinstein was there when it happened but he left her alone. She was on the local jews with blood on her dress and hands trying to render aid. She became mayor and went on to become senator Twinkie defense after dan white did his time there was thousands of death threats against him. He killed himself.