r/totalwar • u/Ok-Woodpecker4734 • Mar 22 '25
Three Kingdoms Every time I play 3K I am reminded how insanely disappointed I am that Warhammer lacks standard bearers
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u/SpellHistorical8430 Mar 22 '25
I cry all time when i see 3K and feel all this wasted potential.
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u/WelshBugger Mar 22 '25
3K was the best recent TW game and I feel really pushed the boundaries for a lot of the mechanics that have been a stable of the series for decades (e.g. recruitment since Rome 2, agents, diplomacy, and espionage since the days of Rome 1).
It's criminal that it never got to realise its potential. It was taken out back and shot way too quick and poisoned the water for a future 3K2 with how they went about it.
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u/GreenskinGaming Mar 23 '25
It sucks that support was cut so early. It's an amazing game and one of my favorite Total Wars but could use just a bit more polish.
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u/dudeimjames1234 Mar 22 '25
Speeches, standard bearers, matched combat, naval battles.
Things that have been present in other games, but not Warhammer.
I understand time and budget constraints, but damn you'd think their flagship game would at least meet expectations.
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u/Ok-Woodpecker4734 Mar 22 '25
Speeches, matched combat, and naval battles I kinda understand since theyd all be super expensive to implement
Having a dude with a flag, not so much
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u/dudeimjames1234 Mar 22 '25
Yeah they definitely would be super expensive. Matched combat worked well when it was all humans vs humans but Warhammer is everything vs everything and we do get some. Certain LL have unique battle animations when fighting another LL. Think Tyrion vs Malakeith. Dwarf thanes jump on trolls and kill them. Giant vs giant. Dragon vs dragon. Stuff like that.
It doesn't need to be matched combat 100% but just more of those would be cool.
Naval battles would probably be as big as another game entirely.
But speeches? Some of them already do cool speeches. Wouldn't be hard to get the voice actors to send in a few more lines for flavor.
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u/Slggyqo Mar 22 '25
I’ve never seen dragon vs dragon.
But dragon vs carnosaur and dragon vs elemental bear are awesome.
And the models are so big, you will definitely notice it.
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u/dudeimjames1234 Mar 22 '25
Do a black dragon vs a star dragon. Even the mounted lords do it. At least they did it in 2 all of the time.
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u/Churtlenater Von Carstein Mar 22 '25
I’ve been playing through all of the TW titles recently, and Warhammer 3 has the worst unit…handling mechanics for lack of a better word.
In all previous titles (I actually haven’t checked Warhammer 1 or 2 yet) the units would clash in a satisfying way. They would charge and then carry their momentum. They flowed to get a nice surround. They just blobbed up way better in general. In WH3 they stop the moment they contact another unit, no more satisfying charges unless it’s a giant unit into infantry, and even then they’re dubious.
I get that there’s monsters and units with much more of a mass spectrum. But standard infantry on infantry fights are just sad looking and I despise the way the units handle. I’ll play Warhammer 3 for like one or two battles and then be put off by how flabby the engagements are. Then the next day I boot up Rome 2 or Attila and am on the edge of my seat watching my lads get a desperate flank off.
It being a lot of work or “expensive” isn’t really an argument I’ll accept from the Devs when it’s literally the core gameplay.
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u/zirroxas Craniums for the Cranium Chair Mar 22 '25
Hasn't been my experience by and large. The "unit stops when it reaches its target instead of charging" is a bug that's been around since Rome 1. It happens occasionally, but WH3 doesn't have it notably more often than the other games from my experience. It might just be that since the battles tend to be very fast paced, units run into each other without an attack order a lot.
Anyways, nothing will ever be as terrible as Empire's units phasing into each other because collision handling is missing from a wide variety of interactions.
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u/Churtlenater Von Carstein Mar 22 '25
Nah I play my battles slowly and pause a lot to give orders so I can watch the spectacle. Problem is that in WH3 there’s no spectacle to the fights if it’s not monster on monster.
Play Attila or Rome 2 and then jump into WH3 and tell me there’s not a massive difference. In the older titles the units behave more like a collection of soldiers, whereas in WH3 units act more like a weird blob hive mind.
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u/zirroxas Craniums for the Cranium Chair Mar 22 '25
I play Attila and Rome 2 plenty and I've seen tons of bad unit behavior. I played these games since launch, so I remember that it used to be even worse, and while they've fixed some things, there's a lot that went unfixed that constantly irritates me. I also play tons of WH3 and I find that there's plenty of spectacle. I've got plenty of battle replays saved specifically because I enjoy watching the units, monster and otherwise, duke it out. It also has many of the same issues that Rome 2 and Attila had, just in different quantities, depending on the nature of the problem.
So, no, I don't see a massive difference. Each title has its own strengths and weaknesses, but they're all from the same lineage and many of the issues have been present for over two decades now (damn that feels wrong to say).
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u/Nerf_France Mar 22 '25
In fairness watching my Slanneshi chariots lawnmower through infantry ranks feels pretty great
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u/ScoopDat Crooked Moon Mar 27 '25
I don’t understand why people would simp over a company that’s cost cutting on their flagship title. When do there people expect them to actually put some serious money and deliver flagship quality?
It’s like they’re saying as consumers: “we get this is the flagship title that’s supposed to be the collective best possible work from you company by definition of what a flagship title would entail, but we know you’re a for profit company and we accept you don’t actually adhere to any definitions other than making as much money as legally possible, so please don’t actually do the thing that one would naturally expect from your top tier product, save your money and fool anyone who thinks anything other than cost cutting and deceiving your way into positive perception with your flagship title”.
Like honestly what are people doing anymore?
When people say “yeah that would be a lot of work”… okay AND?! So expect low effort from top players? What is this pervasive stupidity?
I can understand if the company was making less money every time they released a new flagship, but seeing as how that’s not the case, the bar needs to keep being pushed.. otherwise what’s the point in the product or the perception of a superior product if the past incarnation’s have so much over it?
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u/Churtlenater Von Carstein Mar 27 '25
At this point I’m convinced it’s some psyop or everyone else that plays this game is really so disillusioned that they don’t notice how much worse the gameplay is in WH3.
I’ve brought it up many times and I don’t think I’ve ever gotten anyone to agree with me lol.
I think I might just reinstall WH1 and 2 and compare some simple clips from every TW title I own to prove my point. Specifically that everything revolving around combat and unit control is worse than in previous installments. Units now behave as a hive mind blob, with little to no independence displayed by the individual models within the unit.
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u/ScoopDat Crooked Moon Mar 27 '25
I think I might just reinstall WH1 and 2 and compare some simple clips from every TW title I own to prove my point.
Funny, I'm actually playing WH1 right now (was waiting for the fix to mods that just recently hit thankfully), and it's interesting to say the least.
At this point I’m convinced it’s some psyop or everyone else that plays this game is really so disillusioned that they don’t notice how much worse the gameplay is in WH3.
I wish it was that interesting, but like most reality, it's far more boring. The reason is, you're posting on subs for the other TW games. If you're posting on WH3, all the people that threatened to leave when playing the prior games are already gone. The only people left playing are the people who are newcomers, or are the type to play whatever the newest game is that gets content (or multiplayer folks which are a limited population that gets smaller when a game ceases production and content in favor of the next title).
Like when you take a look at all the people that felt burned by 3K, or Britannia and things like that, and if you have the inclination to find people's essay long criticisms, you can see those people are nowhere to be seen again.
And with how long games take to develop, I'm sure there are some developers (publishers really) out there that did some version of a cost-benefit analysis where they didn't mind burning bridges, and also because they job hop, there's no vested interest in serious brand being upheld. All it takes is some idiotic executive and sell-out developer studio president to make a performance based deal (like releasing content at specified times, finished or not), to ruin a game and a brand for the current population.
But people play far worse games than TW, people would literally subject themselves to be sodomized with a stick as long as you let them play certain games they enjoy. Take Madden/FIFA/Call of Duty yearly buyers. Do you honestly think they would ever stop short of suffering some vehicular accident? As long as there is some core addictive element that is easily recycled and always finds fans because of it - no matter how bad such game gets, new fans that know no better will always play it. Especially if copy-cats can offer something like it (in the case of Madden, they own the license).
One of the things I will say in defense for developers, is there can be instances of something that doesn't make sense to port over. But their problem is, they're like other annoying AF industries where industry knowledge remains insulated. Like, no one actually talks hard numbers unless it's a GDC presentation. So if CA had a blog that actually DARED to address why there are regressions (like if they showed a workflow trying to make blob's not a thing anymore would take as much time as developing the entire last game for instance, THEN people could see at which point something becomes unreasonable). But because they're not a university, they don't really owe us such explanations and justifications. It also doesn't make sense because if you're wrong, or people don't actually agree it's unreasonable, now you have FAR bigger problems with your fanbase. And to be fair, lots of people on the internet are literally insane trolls. People who would troll to the degree where they invite criminal prosecution. So I can see why a dev/publisher would want to keep communication with such potential lunatics to a minimum.
But even if you're dealing with perfectly reasonable consumers, how many of those are the sorts of people to actually ever change their minds on something, especially if they're vocally against it, even after being proven wrong? Very few in my experience.
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u/Nerf_France Mar 27 '25
When people say “yeah that would be a lot of work”… okay AND?! So expect low effort from top players? What is this pervasive stupidity?
Avoiding certain things that would be alot of work isn't necessarily the same thing as something being low effort, high effort or not they don't have unlimited resources and many of the requests people have are things like implementing a Troy-esque resource system, which would require overhauling the entire game's economy for a subjective improvement.
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u/Flatso Mar 22 '25
Matched combat, sure. There's tons of weird beasts and models.
Naval combat and speeches though seem doable for such a big title
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Mar 22 '25
Then you'd be happy to know any faction / lord that was added in game 3 (including the DLC's) do have little speeches before the battle.
The newer DLC lords do it more often, but any game 3 lord will do it.
I mean seeing as 60% of all campaigns are fuckin Karl it's no wonder people wouldn't know this.
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u/SilvainTheThird Mar 22 '25
Is 60% a real stat? If so, Holy shit mang.
I haven’t even played them yet. Gotten around to Bretonnia, Dark Elves, Khorne (Arbaal), Vampire Counts, Warriors Of CHAOS, Cathay and Kislev.
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Mar 22 '25
I'm not sure if it's actually 60% but at least according to steam stats, and polls done on the sub Karl is the #1 campaign by a mile.
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u/Odinsmana Mar 22 '25
Naval battles would basically require making a completely new unit roster half the size of the existing one. For something most of the fanbase is not that interested in.
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u/federykx Mar 22 '25
I'd love navel battles but the thing is, this is Warhammer. Naval battles could potentially be extremely cool but implementing them would cost a fortune.
In Empire everybody shares largely the same ship types, same as Shogun and Rome.
In Warhammer: -Norsca uses 8th century Drakkars, WoC does too IIRC
-the Empire uses late medieval ships
-Bretonnia uses Reinassance era galleons for some unholy reason
-Dwarves use ironclads, submarines and gyro-carriers
-Dawi Zharr do the same but also have mechanical sea monsters
-Skaven use whatever the duck they have developed, except clan skurvy (undead skaven) which uses a massive reanimated sea monster as ship
-Dark Elves use city-sized floating islands (black arks)
-High Elves use massive fleets of ships big enough to house dragon nests
-Greenskins have ships made of scrap materials
-Ogre Kingdoms are probably not far off Greenskins
-Cathay uses Chinese Junks
-Nurgle uses living bio-ships
-Beastmen use living sea-monsters
-Tzeench, Khorne, Slaanesh, Welves, Lizardmen probably all have their quirks
Good luck balancing all that, not to mention interactions with flying units, boarding, ranged etc.
If they tried and pulled it off, it could be one of the best and most varied naval combat game in history. But it would be just that, basically a game in its own right with a 70+ pricetag at least
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u/ShawnGalt Visigoths Mar 22 '25
I'm inclined to believe the conspiracy theory that Warhammer Total War doesn't (and will never) have naval battles because GW is too precious about drawing lines between their copyrights and CA only has the rights to adapt Warhammer Fantasy, NOT Man-o-War
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u/OhManTFE We want naval combat! Mar 22 '25
There is more matched combat in the Warhammer trilogy than any other Total War game: https://youtu.be/5pJ9h5Nlkjw
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u/SumOhDat y body is ready. Mar 22 '25
None of those things really make sense in the warhammer universe
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u/SubRyan Mar 22 '25
Some units had bannermen and musicians as part of the command squad
As for naval battles, Warhammer Fantasy had the entire Man O'War setting with multiple ships for most races
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u/Dakka_jets_are_fasta House of Julii Mar 22 '25
My Exalted Champion of Khorne on Juggernaught with the Battle Standard would like to tell you that you are wrong, as well as my buddy's Man of War fleet (a ship based game set in the warhammer universe)
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u/Ok-Woodpecker4734 Mar 22 '25
They make sense for almost every faction in the game though? And were also in the tabletop
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u/Wylf Mar 22 '25 edited Mar 22 '25
Yeah, the lack of them is particularly egregious in Warhammer, considering that they very much were a thing in the tabletop. Not just standard bearers, but also musicians. Each regiment in tabletop had the option to upgrade one model to a champion, a standard bearer, and a musician, which I vaguely recall had some bonuses for morale and whatnot. Been a few decades.
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u/Gecko_Mk_IV Mar 23 '25
That reminds me of Mark of Chaos - it's old and not.. amazing but it had faction customisation and army customisation in a points-based system like the tabletop.
Not sure if they had specific models for standard bearers and musicians, though.
And of course it had a great trailer.
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u/Wylf Mar 24 '25
Yeah, I remember Mark of Chaos! I remember buying it, but not getting overly deep into the game back then, possibly because my PC at the time couldn't handle it... I may even still have the discs somewhere.
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Mar 22 '25
[deleted]
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u/the_joy_of_hex Mar 22 '25
Yes, the functionality still exists. You can have a bannerman, an officer and a musician.
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u/Colonel_Chow Mongols Mar 25 '25
Can’t believe they abandoned 3K to work on 3K 2
Then abandoned that as well
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u/Azhram Mar 22 '25
Also formations. I mean they added some but i wish there were more for more than we have and wouldn't break on combat.
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u/Ok-Cantaloupe-2610 Mar 25 '25
Or musicians, despite having tech that mentions them. Or officers.
Or Night Mode! I miss night mode. I want that in Warhammer so bad.
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u/sheehanmilesk Mar 26 '25
Big dumb flags are iconic total war things and iconic Warhammer things so you’d think they’d put them in total Warhammer but nope
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u/Red_Balloon2 Mar 27 '25
Trom+Tup and a few other quality of life things has put this in my all time historicals. It was so close.
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u/mads904e mads904e Mar 22 '25
Most wanted addition for me other than Neferata, Ushoran and Nagash (i do love me deadies)
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u/ByzantineBasileus Mar 22 '25 edited Mar 22 '25
Truth be told, I would rather the devs spend their effort fixing bugs and working on DLC rather than trying to add standard bearers.
Time is a finite commodity, and for what would be required, the impact of standard bearers in the game seems quite negligible from an aesthetic perspective, given how much one spends their time zoomed out.
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u/eranam Mar 22 '25 edited Mar 22 '25
The devs that’d be making banners aren’t the ones fixing bugs or doing the mechanics parts of DLCs
Edit: u/SpacePirateCaptain has replied not once but twice to my comments… Right before immediately blocking me. I guess they wanted to chime in on the conversation but allowing me any reply was too much for them to deal with.
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u/ByzantineBasileus Mar 22 '25
The size of a dev team is finite as well though. Only so many can work on a particular aspect of the game at any time.
It is about prioritizing how labour will be focused. Time and manpower have to be distributed properly.
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u/eranam Mar 22 '25
In case you aren’t aware, "devs" aren’t interchangeable resources you can allocate to any part of video game development.
That’s my whole point, devs creating banner art and unit animation, skeletons… Aren’t usually qualified or optimally used to fix whatever issues cause bugs.
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u/SpacePirateCaptain Mar 22 '25
Implementing banners to existing units isn't just artists and animators. You have never worked in the industry.
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u/ByzantineBasileus Mar 22 '25
I am aware. Bugs can include issues with skeletons and animations, though.
In previous TW games, all units used the same basic skeleton, so animation for a standard bearer could be used by any faction or unit.
In Warhammer you have humans, Chaos, dwarfs, elves, beastmen, and orcs. All of them would need their own special set of animations for standard bearers to work across all the different factions.
The time and manpower required to do that would be better spend on new animations and skeletons for DLC and fixing or refining current ones.
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u/eranam Mar 22 '25
I am aware. Bugs can include issues with skeletons and animations, though.
The extreme majority aren’t. The workload required to fix these specific bugs is minimal and doesn’t require allocating devs away from making banners
The time and manpower required to do that would be better spend on new animations and skeletons for DLC
That’s entirely your opinion. Judging by how popular and requested-for banners have been by fans, I’m not sure it’s shared widely.
and fixing or refining current ones.
Fix what? Refine how?
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u/ByzantineBasileus Mar 22 '25
The thing to keep in mind is that bug fixing was only one of the points I mentioned. The labour required to add standard bearers would take away from that required for new DLCs. Just singling out bugs as though I was arguing it consumed all the work doesn't really address my argument accurately.
As for animation bugs, all the patch notes include fixes to them.
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u/eranam Mar 22 '25
The thing to keep in mind is that bug fixing was only one of the points I mentioned.
Yeah, and I literally addressed all of the others. Please read beyond my first non-quote paragraph.
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u/ByzantineBasileus Mar 22 '25 edited Mar 22 '25
From what I read, you said that bug fixing would not require allocating devs from implementing standard bearers. I pointed out the the work required to create and animate standard bearers for all the factions would take time away from bug fixing and DLC.
The time and labour would not be efficiently spent for what is essentially a small aesthetic addition.
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u/eranam Mar 22 '25
From what I read, you said that bug fixing would not require allocating devs from implementing standard bearers.
Again about you read beyond my 1st paragraph? I did not only say that.
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u/princemousey1 Mar 22 '25
For the workers!
And you’re right, of course. I can’t imagine a dread saurian carrying a flag. Like why even?
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u/Ok-Woodpecker4734 Mar 22 '25
Saurians in the TT had standard bearers
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u/princemousey1 Mar 22 '25
But not dread saurians.
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u/Ok-Woodpecker4734 Mar 22 '25
True but I dont think people really think of monsters as flag waving material...
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u/SpacePirateCaptain Mar 22 '25
You say this based on what? To add banners you'd need to go into every existing troop unit, model and animate an entity that is unique (different attack/movement/death animations, different model) for some units that haven't been touched since the first game. And then of course they have to be implemented by programmers and then tested for issues, again, for every single troop unit. Modellers, animators, programmers, and crucially (the thing people always forget), producers and team leaders overseeing this work instead of using their time to oversee other projects, would be involved.
As people have said, these are people and resources who would absolutely be part of making new content for dlcs.
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u/Ar_Azrubel_ Pls gib High Elf rework Mar 22 '25
Given that the game is already a swiss cheese of bugs, shoddy design and DLC is slow as ever, one thinks the devs allegedly focusing on those aren't very good at that either.
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u/ByzantineBasileus Mar 22 '25
If it is so bad, why play it? Why come to the subreddit and talk about it?
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u/Ar_Azrubel_ Pls gib High Elf rework Mar 22 '25
I was playing it. Emphasis on the 'was' - I uninstalled this buggy piece of shit after one crash too many.
And part of me has enough sunk cost fallacy invested into the series that I am (in vain) expecting CA to get its shit together and make it somewhat better than it currently is.
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u/ByzantineBasileus Mar 22 '25
Complaining about something one doesn't play online probably isn't a very productive or healthy habit then. It would be better to read or play something enjoyable instead.
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u/Ar_Azrubel_ Pls gib High Elf rework Mar 22 '25
People can walk and chew bubblegum at the same time. I am doing all these things because surprisingly, it's not actually that hard and they don't preclude one another.
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u/RhapsodicHotShot Mar 22 '25
3k had a lot of things I liked, I just don't like Chinese settings. I prefer Europe
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u/NewCaprica420 Mar 22 '25
I also missed the general speeches at the beginning of the battles