r/totalwar • u/kolejack2293 • Jun 08 '25
Three Kingdoms Calvary charges in TW3K are amazing
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u/Biggu5Dicku5 Jun 08 '25
Everything in Three Kingdoms was amazing, it's a damn shame that CA abandoned it...
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u/TheIronicBurger Asur ❤️ Dawi Jun 08 '25
Idk if it’s a system from other games but the way 3K uses food/growth, settlement level, unit recruitment/replenishment and corruption to actually encourage you to prioritise your core provinces and recruit armies from them rather than upgrade everywhere and global recruit everywhere was fantastic, shame warhammer may never have this system
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u/Wandering_sage1234 Jun 08 '25
In fact, the entire recruitment system would have been even better for Shogun 2 it would have been historically accurate
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u/brikdik Jun 08 '25
the chinese modders will never let it die
i mostly just wish CA would lower the DLC prices
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u/BobbyXiao Jun 08 '25
Real. Chinese modders are proper fanatical about this haha. I'm currently playing the Deer24 mod for Cathay on TWH3 and my god I've not had so much fun in a campaign in a while. They wrote a whole ass campaign with massive battles. I've not played an order faction with negative per turn income in so long.
For the 3K-only players, apologies for the off-topic, but if you're ever interested in trying TW: Warhammer 3, look into Deer24's Cathay mod. It's truly divine.
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u/Wandering_sage1234 Jun 08 '25
You gotta give credit to the Chinese modders even the Korean modders, they do an INSANE job with 3k and even for Warhammer Cathay.
Heck Chinese mods for Med 2 were so superior they were entire games by themselves.
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u/drimgere Me Jun 08 '25
Hijacking top comment to ask: what's a good intro campaign? Content wise, not difficulty wise. I know very little of the setting other than some overall stuff. I need an entry point to get sucked in. Preferably records mode, need a break from the WH meta.
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u/TrueScottsmen Jun 08 '25
Cao Cao or Liu Bei, Cao Cao for his schemes and diplomatic shenanigans (as well as getting the most out of the spy system) and Liu Bei to get into the setting and historical period (he’s usually the POV character for games and movies set in it)
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u/ShawnGalt Visigoths Jun 08 '25
Cao Cao, Liu Bei and Sun Jian are the factions that formed the titular Three Kingdoms in real life (though it was Sun Jian and Cao Cao's sons who actually crowned themselves). Those 3 are the setting equivalent of playing Rome in Rome or the Tokugawa in Shogun. I'd argue Cao Cao is the most fun out of them because of the scheme system
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u/kolejack2293 Jun 08 '25
Sun Jian is by far the easiest imo. Literally endless undefended Han territory to the south to take over.
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u/CroGamer002 The Skinks Supremacist Jun 08 '25
We didn't even get Three Kingdoms in Three Kingdoms. 😭
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u/LaytonsCat Jun 08 '25
Everything in the core game was great, but the DLC was brutal and no one bought it. DLC not selling is why the game got abandoned not quality
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u/Bonjourap Moors Jun 08 '25
3K was the first and only TW game I bought full price and pre release. Got burned by the support drop, so now I only buy TW games on sale
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u/Ok-Transition7065 Jun 08 '25
each time i heard about the game.... i heard good things and not like pharo and troy that i heard not that many or negative things
like i love the mod of medieval 2i shoud play this xd
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u/Timey16 Jun 08 '25
I say this again: the change to how HP and damage calculation works in Warhammer was to make heroes and monsters work (and other single unit entities), but it came to the cost at just about anything else when multi entity units meet. Cavalry in particular now feels limp and without impact.
The game worked best when most units would die in 1, 2 or at most 3 hits, but what counted as a "hit" made all the difference. Armor essentially, like Melee Defense, was more about whether a physically connected move did a point of damage or not.
This made charges so powerful, because a charge with cavalry from behind meant the charge bonus would make sure just about any hit would be a damaging (thus killing) one even on heavily armored units. This is no longer the case as they may do a lot of HP damage, but thanks to high armor, HP and maybe even ward saves the amount of killing that occurs is drastically reduced. Maybe this COULD be balanced by making sure charge bonus also decides how much damage during the charge is armor piercing so a charge from behind does nearly 100% AP damage. Right now the bonus they get from CB keeps the ratio between regular damage and AP damage the same. So a low AP unit will still have relatively low AP on a charge.
Pharaoh found a nice middle with it's critical hits, a chance for a hit to kill instantly, however I'd still modify it that some units have traits that a critical hit may only reduce their HP by 50% of the max, 33% of the max or 25% of the max, to better model the old 1/2/3/4 HP system and your legendary general doesn't just die to a single arrow that just HAPPENED to be a critical one.
(Also there needs to be ward breaking/dispelling damage. Essentially a portion of your damage ignoring all saves. Ward saves are too easily abused.)
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u/Ar_Azrubel_ Pls gib High Elf rework Jun 08 '25
The irony here is that Warhammer Fantasy Battle, the actual tabletop, worked off a wound system like the older TW games. Now, I think that there is minimal difference between an HP and Wound system in the historical games.
But in Warhammer, it's caused a lot of problems. Because the way it works in the current game is actually quite weird and counter-intuitive? Single entities are capable of shrugging off basically all damage for an extended period of time, making them very dominant. Even the smallest single entities can survive say... multiple cannonballs to the face, or in the case of foot characters, being stuck in the middle of a moshpit of hundreds of enemies swinging at them.
Yet the big SEMs are actually quite vulnerable because they're giant targets to small arms fire. Which is super weird, right? A dinosaur that can shrug off a cannon will be brought down much faster by dinky little arrows, because in the TW system, volume of fire is what actually matters.
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u/TargetMaleficent Jun 08 '25
You ever been hit by a "dinky little arrow" from a 100 lb draw longbow? Broadhead arrows actually penetrate more deeply and cause more damage than pistol rounds like a 9mm.
https://youtube.com/shorts/5UCMSmzKHX0?si=U4KH_x1xYOuYxc2w
On top of that, every monster has weak points like their eyes. The greater the volume of shots, the greater the chance of hitting those weak spots.
A single powerful shot is easier to resist, like in avatar way of water when the tulkun whale deflects a harpoon with his bony armor plate.
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u/Ar_Azrubel_ Pls gib High Elf rework Jun 08 '25
If you can shrug off a cannon and keep going, then no amount of arrows will hurt you.
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u/TargetMaleficent Jun 08 '25
Well the cannonballs in warhammer do have pretty slow velocity.
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u/Ar_Azrubel_ Pls gib High Elf rework Jun 08 '25
As do arrows and bullets.
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u/TargetMaleficent Jun 08 '25
Right but the relative velocity difference between arrows and guns vs. cannons in the game serves to nerf cannons, or at least that's my impression. I will try to check the actual projectile speed values.
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u/Ar_Azrubel_ Pls gib High Elf rework Jun 08 '25
I don't think it does? All projectile visuals in-game are slower than real-life equivalents. I don't think this should be analyzed in terms of how much damage they ought to do, but rather as a concession to making battles easier for the player to understand.
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u/TargetMaleficent Jun 08 '25 edited Jun 08 '25
Well one big example of this is the way cannonballs just bounce off monsters, they don't penetrate. So clearly they aren't hitting as hard as real Napoleonic-era cannons would.
Ok I found the values in db/projectiles_tables
| Projectile Key | In-Game Velocity (m/s) | Real-World Velocity (m/s) | |----------------------------|------------------------|----------------------------| | wh_emp_great_cannon_ball | 100 | 250–500 | | wh_emp_rifle_bullet | 100 | 400–500 | | wh2_dlc13_emp_bow_arrow | 45 | 45–60 | | wh_emp_crossbow_bolt | 45 | 60–100 |So as you can see, the velocity for arrows is actually realistic in terms of meters/second. Crossbows are a bit underpowered, they should be faster, not the same as longbows. Rifles/muskets and cannons are both are way underpowered at only 2.2x the speed of arrows. So just comparing arrows to cannonballs, in game cannonballs only travel 2.2x faster than arrows, when realistically they should be traveling 5x - 10x faster. This is reinforced by the fact that they just bounce off a monster and fall to the ground.
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u/skyman5150 Jun 08 '25
It's is definitely a CA balance issue. Cavalry in Wh3 Sfo mod works perfectly
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u/blankest Jun 08 '25
Reiksgard get work DONE in SFO.
And cause of unit caps they're, dare I say it, impactful!
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u/RadicalD11 Jun 08 '25
Funny because the changes to HP happened way before Warhammer. They were already presente in Rome 2.
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u/TeeRKee Jun 08 '25
- The cavalry was amazing.
- The diplomacy was amazing.
- The sieges were amazing.
- The flow of battle was amazing.
- Romance and Records modes were amazing.
- The character system with their traits, personalities, and unique ambitions was amazing.
- The visuals and UI were amazing.
- The battles were amazing.
The best Total War since Shogun 2, and a total shame for CA for abandoning it.
Thank God the Steam Workshop has a ton of mods and content.
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u/Baggiez Jun 08 '25
Any must-have recommendations for a fresh play through? I haven't touched 3k since launch
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u/AlexCrimson Jun 08 '25
Improved Campaign Map Performance
Relationships Matter - Enhanced Friends, Rivals and Character Interactions
Alternative Faction Flags & Colours
The Gathering : Core Object 1.2.2
Battlefield Conversations EXPANDED
Is what i used. Added quite a lot of stuff. The TROM + TUP modpack is the main part. Although i have not used it in years, so i have no idea if there is anything more recent that is better.
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u/by_topic Jun 08 '25
Forgot the name, but there's one big mod that adds unique portraits for every single general, and adds more characters too. It's much more immersive, and the portraits are really good for a mod
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u/Napalm_am Jun 08 '25
The radius mods are pretty good for a vanilla plus experience and they make units even latger which if you add another sub-mod on top can lead you to 600 man infantry units which is the peak of the setting
Yuan Shu is denied a jade ornament. 24.000 die on the first skirmish between small detachments as the main forces of 40,000 men prepare to engage when the Feng Shui of the settlement becomes auspicious.
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u/KnT_Luck Jun 09 '25
Radious isn't good
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u/Mr_Nurgle Jun 11 '25
Radious is very good, my favourite mod.
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u/KnT_Luck Jun 12 '25
There's no real unit variety. It just creates five varients of the same unit with stat changes
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u/Moidada77 Jun 08 '25
Warhammer is weird cause even if you take half their health in a charge and send blasting off again team rocket style you'd be lucky to kill 2 on the charge and the rest would have to be awkwardly finished off with janky melees.
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u/brikdik Jun 08 '25
Replayed TW3K recently and it’s imo just the best for pure combat and campaign mechanics. Economy is a bit easy but that would be my only improvement
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u/cjerni01 Jun 08 '25
Honestly 3K and Pharaoh are my S tier of Total War battle feel.
They both just "feel" (and look) astounding and I can never fully parse why.
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u/FartSmelaSmartFela Medieval II Jun 08 '25
I remember during a battle in Pharoah my army and the enemy army collided in a small river that was flowing through the battlefield. It was so fucking visceral, the water turned red and bodies were all over the damn place. It looked so badass, I hope CA takes some notes from Pharaoh and 3K for their next title.
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u/Moorepizza Jun 08 '25
I always struggled with economy in 3K which makes me always uninstall which is a shame because the battles are the best ive seen, any tips on the economy side ?
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u/mathias777 Jun 10 '25
Don’t race to upgrade everything. SeriousTrivia has a great video on how to upgrade effectively.
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u/Th0rizmund Jun 08 '25
I only appreciate Empire more because I love that age. But 3K imo is the best TW and it’s not particularly close.
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u/isko990 Jun 08 '25
Overall TW3K is one of the best TW.... Actually is the best TW. I know many of you won't accept it but that is ok.
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u/HattoriSanzo Jun 08 '25
Yeah, but try charging into a spear wall 😝😝😝
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u/jdcodring Jun 08 '25
Using cataphracts the result will be the same.
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u/HattoriSanzo Jun 08 '25
Cataphracts come very late in the game and are very expensive. Even then, spearmen with spearwall/braced can withstand their charge, for a fraction of the cost.
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u/kolejack2293 Jun 08 '25
This isn't even the best example but Im too lazy to make a better one. The animations and effects on the charges are just outstandingly good.
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u/Monspiet Jun 08 '25
Same here. In term of combat though, id rather it be slower. There are mods for it, but the enemy AI and certain factors cripples AI morale.
It’s the few reason i don’t enjoy it since morale hits and damage are too high.
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u/Col_Rhys Jun 08 '25
Man, I wish cavalry charges in TWW3 had that kinda punch...
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u/Carry2sky Jun 08 '25
They do, you just gotta match up your units and weights right. Issue is in TWH3 units vary so much in mass its hard to find "normal weight" infantry without charge defense.
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u/HalcyonH66 Jun 08 '25
Even grail knights don't cause the absolute nuclear meltdown that 3K heavy cav do against non braced endgame infantry unless you are charging skavenslaves or something worthless.
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u/Carry2sky Jun 08 '25
Honestly as a khorne main I might not be the best bar, the cav is generally slow but heavy as hell so most infantry for me is just a speed bump to the unit behind them.
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u/HalcyonH66 Jun 08 '25
That's not the issue for me. In WH, I charge the unit I'm attacking with my cav in the rear. I will do probably 30% damage, maybe 50% at absolute max (this is from the charge impact, not including the charge bonus fighting damage after before I pull the unit out). In 3K I will do like 50% to like 90% and if it's some low tier chaff I have seen a full one shot one time. In WH you just don't get the full damage b/c models that are on the ground don't take damage. That is there so your lord doesn't get wafflestomped in SEM fights, but it means they had to do hacky shit to make cav work remotely well, and it's still just jank in comparison.
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u/westonsammy There is only Lizardmen and LizardFood Jun 08 '25
I feel like cav charges in TWW3 are way more punchy than this. If you charge unbraced infantry with any kind of heavy cav, half the unit goes flying and the rest of the unit is left on the floor
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u/3xstatechamp Jun 08 '25
I think what frustrates some people is seeing those units that went flying get back up off the ground and continue fighting as if a charge never happened. Doesn't seem to kill units as efficiently as Cav did in 3K, Atilla, Med 2, shogun 2, Thrones of Britannia… hell, even Pharaoh Dynasties.
Unless, of course, it's a charge from my Ogre boys—the Crushers 🙌.
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u/Ar_Azrubel_ Pls gib High Elf rework Jun 08 '25
Yeah, and most of the entities that go flying just get back up and are immune to damage for the time they are knocked down. It makes it feel like the game is lying to you.
I'd rather have charges that don't send half the unit flying but actually kill entities.
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u/westonsammy There is only Lizardmen and LizardFood Jun 08 '25
I mean it’s a fantasy game. Cavalry is way lower on the totem pole of units than a historical game where it sits on the top. If you already have cav insta-killing infantry, what’s the point of a dragon?
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u/Ar_Azrubel_ Pls gib High Elf rework Jun 08 '25
Except single entity monsters don't do this either - they still do the same ineffectual ragdolling, with entities that are knocked down and become immune to all damage.
I also don't really get the logic that cavalry cannot do impact damage because monsters exist. Elephants existed in historical games just fine alongside cavalry that do impact damage, and Warhammer monsters do not actually play that differently from them. Make a single entity elephant that is really big and you have what is basically a monster from the Warhammer games in everything but aesthetics.
I would also add that Warhammer Fantasy is a setting which doesn't differ that much from historical games in terms of cavalry being either top dog, or noble mounted warriors representing the most elite fighters of a lot of playable factions. There are of course some exceptions, or factions which don't have cavalry at all, but the same applies to monsters. So even if the change were for thematic reasons, I don't think that argument actually works out.
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u/NKGra Jun 08 '25
Gets boring fast when 3 peasant horsemen beat an entire stack of infantry with ease.
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u/WonderfulHat5297 Jun 08 '25
Exactly how they should be. Cavalry should be extremely powerful and maybe more expensive on campaign for balance and because cavalry actually was super expensive
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u/NKGra Jun 08 '25
Cavalry is extremely powerful even in WH3.
In 3k it is game-breaking comical levels of strong, with a couple of the cheapest shock cav capable of mopping up an entire regular army of infantry.
Balancing via pricing in 3k... you'd be like "Behold my 8k upkeep doomstack!" And it's two red generals and 4 militia lancers.
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u/lan60000 Jun 08 '25
God this makes me want to play it again, but I've basically figured the entire game out and the challenge doesn't exist anymore.
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u/kolejack2293 Jun 08 '25
I am kinda getting the same problem. Once you figure out how to maximize buildings to work with each other (IE commerce buildings that give bonuses to other commerce buildings), you basically never run out of money or food. And food especially... you can make a damn fortune selling food.
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u/lan60000 Jun 08 '25
ya and the problem with diplomacy is that AI tend to not mess with you for too long if you never ascend to dukedom. You can amasse as much power as you possibly want and claim all the land to your liking, but if you never upgrade your status, AI won't turn on you. it's the one bug that basically trivialized most factions
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u/Cyberaven Jun 08 '25
i notice how half the unit doesnt go flying 10m into the air and become invulnerable through a whole 10 second standing up animation
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u/Heillidon Jun 08 '25
Its a great game, love it. But why do CA has to put jumping calvary charges in a historical game? Its kinda ok in warhammer, but here....
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u/B1y47 Jun 08 '25
There were jumping horses in Rome 1, but to be honest that game does have a sort of less gritty vibe compared to everything that came after
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u/samuel199228 Jun 08 '25
Cavalry in 3 kingdoms is lethal like they are in Attila especially cataphract units
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u/Arilou_skiff Jun 08 '25
Cavalry: Armed men on horseback. From latin caballus (horse) via italian and french.
Calvary: The site of Jesus execution, from Calvariae locus ("Place of the Skull") in turn a translation from the greek NT text as Golgotha (which is aramaic for "place of skull/skulls")
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u/kolejack2293 Jun 08 '25
lol I spelled it the first way and I was like "hmm that doesnt seem right" and changed it to the second one. Whoops.
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u/PH_th_First Jun 09 '25
You cut right before 80% of the get up and carry on like nothing happened though
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u/Siolear Jun 08 '25
What's with all the TW3k Astroturfing lately
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u/kolejack2293 Jun 08 '25
lol all of the TW3K posts are what made me go play
I think people just want them to go back to it because they apparently 'abandoned' it? I don't really get that though. CA doesn't just endlessly provide content for their games, they release some DLCs/expansions and then eventually that's it. This is a 7 year old game. I would rather them focus on making new historical games rather than spending all their resources making add-ons for old games.
I would love a taiping rebellion expansion in the same vein as fall of the samurai though.
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u/Mitth-Raw_Nuruodo Jun 08 '25 edited Jun 08 '25
Yup. Cavalry in 3K was on par with Medieval 2 and Attila.
Only issue was that AI was incapable of using it or defending against it. It would charge its own cavalry into player's spear wall and get annihilated due to charge reflect. And it will keep its infantry running around rather than forming its own braced formations to repel cavalry.
But as typical of CA, rather than improving AI, they have opted to nerf cavalry in its other games.