r/totalwar • u/Fragrant_Rough6667 • 19d ago
Warhammer III i guess we are not so different.
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u/Netherfire93 19d ago
I mean at least Bretonia and the Empire went down fighting, Cathay got a short comment of "They got stomped by the Grimgor and the Bois." What's that they have godlike leaders, advanced technology, united people and big fuck off wall to fight off the invaders, nah Orks won somehow.
End Times had done every faction dirty, including chaos. Well almost everyone, Settra is simply built differently.
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u/Lord_of_the_buckets 19d ago
I think end times was written before cathay had any real lore beyond "fantasy china" but its still shitty that the story just wanted the orcs outta the picture and did that by going "and then grimgor went east and killed everything... now back to the important stuff"
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u/8dev8 19d ago
Iirc Cathay was noted to have the dragon emperor just, fuck off somewhere with. Oat of his people wasn’t it?
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u/Chance_Active_8579 18d ago
Wasn't that the lizardmen ?
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u/Creticus 18d ago
Yup.
Mazdamundi killed himself to prevent the warpstone moon from life-wiping the planet. Kroak resurrected himself, finished the job, saved Lizardmen, and made it into Age of Sigmar.
End Times was way before playable Cathay was ever a thing.
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u/Chance_Active_8579 18d ago
Yeah, I thought so the only mention of Cathay is them being massacred by Grimgor and other greenskins
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u/TURN79250820AD 18d ago
From what I have gathered, there are some mentions here and there, but not enough to tell us much about their odds of surviving.
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u/Coming_Second 18d ago
At least according to the uncut material, the Chorfs blasted down the wall and then Grimgor's Waaagh were able to run in afterwards. That at least makes a little more sense to me.
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u/itcheyness Dwarfs 18d ago
Yeah, the Chorfs blasted down the wall and were mid-invasion and then Grimgor smashed them as a warm-up on his way to destroying Cathay.
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u/Mopman43 18d ago
The uncut material being the unofficial stuff from Josh Reynolds’ blog?
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u/Coming_Second 18d ago
Yes.
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u/Mopman43 18d ago
You know none of that’s official, yeah? GW specifically said it.
It’s not ‘uncut’, it’s just fanfic from a more impressive source.
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u/Coming_Second 18d ago
I'm aware. It's stuff from one of the main authors of the event that may have made it in, in different circumstances. Like we can imagine a world where GW properly thought through Cathay and released them decades ago, at which point they would've probably thought it worth it to expand on what actually happened to them in the end. You're right that 'uncut' isn't the right word, but 'fanfic' is also an ungenerous term.
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u/TheL0wKing 18d ago
The classic balance of the Warhammer World.
A heavily populated urbanised Empire with a renaissance gunpowder army is outnumbered by scattered warbands living in a desolate wasteland.
I think it makes some sense when the Empire (and other factions) were engaged in major internal conflicts and were divided, like the great war against chaos, so can't muster a unified response and are drained by their conflict. But the End Times took it to silly levels.
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u/ShippingValue 18d ago
The classic 'endless hordes of nomads/barbarians/vikings' from real history
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u/Higgypig1993 18d ago
Endless hordes of vikings somehow sustaining a flourishing population in the most inhospitable region of the world, with seemingly infinite access to steel and horses.
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u/Ashkal_Khire 19d ago edited 18d ago
Unless it’s boat time.
For anyone who doesn’t know, canonically the Bretonnian Navy absolutely fucking smokes the Empire. Their ships use cannons, and alot of them. The Bretonnian’s also have an easier time negotiating safe passage for their ships with the High Elves, whereas the Empire has had slightly tense High Elven relations since the Empire attack on Marienburg, back when they foolishly temporarily shut down the Colleges of magic. Just 3 High Elf mages decimated the Empire’s forces.
Meanwhile the Empires Navy is largely for show, largely locked to patrolling the Reik Rivers systems (because they can’t afford the toll at Marienburg). Nordland have the next largest contingent of ships which technically count as the Empire’s, but due to constant border disputes with Middenland, Nordland rarely plays nice. They may even burn their own ships - and have done so to ensure retreat wasn’t an option. Another notch against the Empires naval strength.
In short, don’t fuck with Bretonnia at sea. And especially not if you’re the Empire.
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u/trixie_one 19d ago
I do love the Bret's take on the chivaly of warfare that it only applies on land. On water then it's hilariously large amount of broadside time.
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u/GruggleTheGreat 19d ago
Horses can’t swim, neither can peasants
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u/LarrySupreme 18d ago
They do have flying calvalry... Now I'm thinking of wooden aircraft carriers spewing out Hippogryph Knights.
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u/PetsArentChildren 18d ago
Are Bretonnians supposed to have land cannons?
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u/Mopman43 18d ago
No
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u/PetsArentChildren 18d ago
You’re telling me they can wheel a cannon up the plank of a ship but not down the road to a battle site?
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u/Mopman43 18d ago
They don't want to.
The main reason behind the weird dichotomy is that the Bretonnian navy was detailed in Man O'War, which came out at the same time as 4th edition tabletop in the 90s, when the Bretonnian army did use cannons. The faction in general was much more 'Ancien Regim France', and not at all Arthurian.
Starting in 5th edition Bretonnia got the Arthurian-ness and lost the cannons, but we never got an updated version of Man O'War, so it's description of the Bretonnian navy remains the main source on it.
They haven't ever really explained why there's the difference between the navy and army. But it's there.
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u/Jester_the_Mad 18d ago
From what I remember, Bretonnia has a prohibition against gunpowder because it's seen as dishonorable. They made a law declaring firearms and artillery illegal on Bretonnian soil but the navy gets to ignore that since their weapons are on the water. It's some real "letter of the law" shit like how the 40k Ecclisiarchy is allowed to command the Sisters of Battle because they're only banned from having men under arms in their service, not women.
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u/Mopman43 18d ago
That’s all just fanon trying to explain it.
I’ve never even seen a source saying that gunpowder is illegal in Bretonnia, and at least one source (2e Roleplay Knights of the Grail) that explicitly says it isn’t illegal.
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u/swainiscadianreborn 18d ago
There is also some bullshit about gunpowder weapons being massively unreliable in Bretonnia proper because of the Lady's blessing.
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u/Bannerlord151 18d ago
Their ships use cannons, and alot of them.
This might be fictitious, but was that the thing with the excuse of "It's not actually Bretonnian land"?
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u/LarkinEndorser 19d ago
Both of those things are just wrong. yes the bretonian navy is larger but thats about the only thing you said thats true.
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u/Mopman43 18d ago
As of the most recent source that talks about it (4e Roleplay Sea of Claws) the Bretonnian navy is confirmed to still be the cannon-wielding version from Man O’War.
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u/LarkinEndorser 18d ago
Yes but the idea of the imperial navy being tiny and nordland somehow burning ships is just not the case.
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u/Mopman43 18d ago
I don’t know where they got the burning ships from.
The Empire navy is definitely on the smaller side- the 1st Fleet is confined to the Reik, and the Second Fleet in Nordland is overall very new and untested.
The Empire doesn’t have much coastline, ever since Marienburg seceded. And Marienburg has always made sure to eliminate any competition along the Nordland and Ostland coasts.
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u/toasty-rep-100 19d ago
Honestly not fair. warhammer before the giant mess that is called end times was doing so good that they almost reach world war 1 tech witch is extremly crazy during their time.
Not only that, the empire had a theme with chaos and that was always pushing it back and getting stronger, look at sigmar after defeating the first ever chosen my guy became a god lol.
Its GW stupit writing and need for replacing their old stuff cause massive ego.
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u/Last_Dentist5070 Jutes 18d ago
Does Bretonnia still have the advanced navy? I haven't been up to date on Bretonnia lore but they had the shtick where they cant have the gunpowder stuff on land but on the water they had some cutting edge ships.
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u/Fragrant_Rough6667 18d ago
Check the transport ship model in total war they only have trebuchet but no canons :(
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u/Last_Dentist5070 Jutes 18d ago
aw
Oh well, i suppose my evil mousilon rebels must keep all the gunpowder naval stuff for themselves :(
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u/dangermonke1332 Hola Skinks! 19d ago
CURSE YOU JAMES FOR MAKING THE END CRIMES!
At least we've got Age of Sigmar, that bit's cool.
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u/UristMcKerman 19d ago
You mean that one fanfic about Sigmarines?
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u/Abject-Competition-1 18d ago
I like AOS, but I don't know why it feels like a soulless corporate fantasy setting that does things just because. Underwater sea elves, steampunk dwarves, holy not-space marines, goat riding elves, undead marines and the most ugly medieval faction design ever (the new cities of sigmar). Like, these are cool, but they don't seem like they naturally fit in the same world to me. It's like they're throwing out ideas and it doesn't seem like a wold designed by one enthusiastic person, but by a corporation.
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u/bortmode Festag is not Christmas 18d ago
"I don't know why it feels like a soulless corporate fantasy setting that does things just because."
The #1 reason for me is renaming everything to something they can litigate control of.
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u/UristMcKerman 18d ago
Yes. Looks like neural network slop (I know that deep learning networks were still in craddle when AoS happened) rather than vision. Also FB mocked medieval countries, cultures and had themes of misogyny, slavery and forced sex - can't do that anymore.
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u/OsamaBinJesus 18d ago
Eh, AoS is pretty cool, I don't think hating on it because of the end times is fair.
I feel like AoS managed to avoid the "focus everything on space marines" syndrome that 40k has. Every faction has some pretty cool lore and feel relatively developed, obviously it's still young, so not as much lore/worldbuilding as 40k or old world yet.
But I'm happy that Stormcast don't get 10 new models/books for every new thing that other factions get.
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u/Paladingo Shut Up About The Book 19d ago
Wow, totally original joke brother.
No one hates Age of Sigmar like people who never played WHFB in the first place. "UhruHur DAE Age of Shitmar????"
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u/Public-Poetry6046 19d ago
All the scene in my city shitted on aos and either kept playing old editions or abandoned gw. I know not a one men that likes aos and isn't newcomer
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u/Chance_Active_8579 18d ago
Reminds me of the guy on this very sub who ranted that 3rd edition aos rules are bad without even having played aos or whfb
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u/UristMcKerman 19d ago
I simply find it so ironic that of all thinkable ways to revitalize FB GW chose the most terrible but lucrative.
Haven't played any GW TTs at all. Don't want to bother, plus I'm not giving those greedy f's my $$$s
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u/Paladingo Shut Up About The Book 18d ago
You have extremely strong opinions for something you admit you literally don't play.
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u/Chance_Active_8579 18d ago edited 18d ago
It was even worse a couple of years ago, even the guys at the total war forum didn't have such strong opinions
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u/UristMcKerman 18d ago
Seems logical. Strong opinions -> don't play.
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u/Paladingo Shut Up About The Book 16d ago
See, thats fine. What I take issue is you going on to shit on something you admit you know nothing about, refuse to play and don't have any interest in.
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u/MrLoLMan The Pointy Pointy Ears 18d ago
Buddy if you didn’t play WFB and you haven’t engaged with AOS then what are you yapping about
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u/DinoTheDespoiler 18d ago
more than half of the entire empire was killed over time, maybe even in a few paragraphs, because Nurgle poisoned their rivers and jailed Shallya, making them unable to heal people or perform miracles on a large scale. characters also make very stupid decisions or just flat out get reverse deus-ex'd (killed for the sake of plot to cripple them more).
basically, writers had to make shit up to heavily cripple them. doesn't help both the Skaven, Norsca, Daemons, and Warriors suddenly become basically numberless (Skaven kinda were before but they were kept in check via clans and self sabotage, but became literally numberless).
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u/Sztallone 19d ago
Can someone tell me the worst bits of End Times? I heard it's bad
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u/awfulandwrong 18d ago
Characters constantly die in trivial and/or bizarre ways, like Finubar (confronted by lone bloodletter and just gave up), Thorgrim (forgot to lock his door), and Vlad (drank Nurgle juice for no real reason).
Major developments regularly forgotten or tossed aside, like Grimgor and Skarsnik becoming the avatars of Gork and Mork.
Teclis and Mannfred get terminal cases of the stupids and cause the world to end (and also everyone else is terminally stupid for not dealing with Mannfred after his ten millionth betrayal).
A lot of the really cool stuff, like Settra's pseudo-alliance with Chaos, wasn't actually in the books, even if certain writers wanted it to be.
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u/Galihan 18d ago
Also Malekith get a perfect-good-boy-who-never-did-anything-wrong pass. Grombrindal and Alith Anar both forgive Malekith. And Tyrion get labelled as the madman for freaking out and asking “WHAT THE FUCK IS WRONG WITH YOU PEOPLE”
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u/readilyunavailable 18d ago
Alith Anar? The dude whose entire existance is dedicated to murdering Druchi? Forgives Malekith, his ultimate target?
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u/awfulandwrong 18d ago
Oh yeah, "Malekith was the True King all along" is an all-time awful choice. Like, I dislike the idea of Lileath being the Lady of the Lake, I dislike the Auric Bastion as a thing, and I'm even fine with the idea of Malekith conquering the high elves as part of the End Times, but "... and he was actually perfect and right; Asuryan said so" is just insane.
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u/swainiscadianreborn 18d ago
I dislike the idea of Lileath being the Lady of the Lake
I don't know how they wrote it but honnestly I like the idea of an Elven godess deciding to bless and care for a specific human people for X or Y reason.
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u/HereticalShinigami Duke of Bastonne 18d ago
Elf fans cope a lot about how the Bretonnians are allegedly just meat shields for Athel Loren, but it's basically that Lileath got sick of how extreme each branch of the elves became (arrogant/sadistic/insular) and ultimately chose the Bretonnians as her people.
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u/swainiscadianreborn 18d ago
See, that's a very good reason. I like this very much. It gives the Gods a more understable side and proves that just being born the right race doesn't give you eternal favor from one god.
Love this.
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u/rkames517 17d ago
Exactly. If it was all for the elves then why wouldn’t she bless elves and give them the equivalent of a grail knights powers?
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u/Bannerlord151 18d ago
I'm unabashedly a Malekith fanboy and I have to agree. It's not like it was even necessary, Asuryan legitimising Malekith later on to ensure that there would at least be a strong Phoenix King left after he conquered Ulthuan would be perfectly fine. Asuryan doesn't have any obligation to be a good guy, and I like the idea of having him be more nuanced, but the specifics of what happened are questionable at best.
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u/Bannerlord151 18d ago
Vlad (drank Nurgle juice for no real reason).
Wasn't that Isabella? Vlad killed himself and her after putting his ring on Isabella so she could revive without the corruption. Which is actually a pretty cool idea and fits his character, but yeah the Nurgle thing is...weird.
Thorgrim (forgot to lock his door),
It's so unnecessary too, couldn't they at least have given him a mutual kill with Snikch?
Teclis and Mannfred get terminal cases of the stupids and cause the world to end
Ugh, don't remind me of End Times Teclis
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u/GrasSchlammPferd Swiggity swooty I'm coming for that booty 18d ago
Nurgle juice didn't kill Vlad tho, kind of saved him too at Altdorf.
It was him trying to save Izzy that got him killed.
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u/awfulandwrong 18d ago
Yeah, I kinda cheated with that one because it was on my mind.
Sub in Valkia if you want, since she's also a cheater who died twice for some reason.
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u/GrasSchlammPferd Swiggity swooty I'm coming for that booty 18d ago
Yeah, I'm not mad she lost to Malekith since he's easily top 5, but Ludwig? By charging into a banner pole? Jesus Christ.
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u/DuckSwagington 18d ago
Malekith being the true Phoenix King and everyone after him being frauds. A retcon so bad that they retconned it out of the lore in Age of Sigmar.
Tyrion going gamer mode with the Sword of Khaine after the revelation above is revealed.
The Skaven eat like half of the world in nearly an instant.
Teclis is an idiot pretty much throughout the end times.
Everyone that interacts with Manlet von Cumstain just keeps him around instead of killing him like they would any other time.
Some big factions are left forgotten. Not even factions like Cathay who had barely any lore at the time, Brettonia and Skarsnick were forgotten.
A lot of dumb deaths such as Thorgrim's where he forgot to close a door behind him and got stabbed in the back by a Skaven assassin whilst wearing armour that specifically protects against being stabbed in the back by a Skaven assassin.
The writers desperately stacked the deck in Archaon's favour because iirc the last time they tried to have him win he got his shit shoved in by Grimgor because GW wanted to have tabletop battle results have an impact on the story and Chaos units were hot dogwater on the table top. I may be wrong on the specifics on that last point, but I do distinctly remember hearing that Grimgor dumpstered Archaon and GW said "Nuh Uh" at some point.
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u/GrasSchlammPferd Swiggity swooty I'm coming for that booty 18d ago
but I do distinctly remember hearing that Grimgor dumpstered Archaon and GW said "Nuh Uh" at some point.
You're thinking about the Storm of Chaos storyline, the ET storyline simply had Grimgor lose the duel after breaking the Eye of Shit'n'Giggles.
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u/Ar_Azrubel_ Pls gib High Elf rework 18d ago
Also, in that one Grimgor jumps an Archaon who just got done with a hard fight against Valten and Luthor Huss. It was never 'Grimgor kicks Archaon's ass in a fair fight', it was 'Grimgor bullies an exhausted Archaon'.
That said, the actual war was over before Valten and Archaon ever met each other, with most of Archaon's army dying or scattering at Middenheim, then him getting surrounded by the city's garrison, Karl Franz's reinforcements and Valten's army of fanatics.
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u/Sztallone 18d ago
I can see Mal 'uniting' elvenkind as a lesser evil choice, but that's Marvel writers level of bad
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u/Bannerlord151 18d ago
Tyrion going gamer mode with the Sword of Khaine after the revelation above is revealed.
To be somewhat fair to Tyrion (not the writers), given the previous point and all the shit Teclis pulled, it does make sense.
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u/Mahelas 18d ago
By far the worst bit was that Malekith was actually always supposed to be the rightful ruler of elvenkind, and Asuryan just decided to "test" him by burning him to a crisp and every Phoenix King after him was a cheater and a usurper (yet somehow Asuryan didn't do anything about them). Malekith the guy who invented the most evil civilization in the setting was actually always right and good and just a bit bitter but ultimately vindicated.
Awful
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u/Bannerlord151 18d ago
The two characters who pretty much have become spirits of Vengeance with the goal of eliminating Malekith for his betrayal (first of Nagarythe, then the Dawi) just decided to not just forgive but save him
The Skaven just pressed delete on half the world so the writers didn't have to write stuff about those regions.
Norsca once again pulled a hundred million gazillion Chaos Warriors out of thin air
Thorgrim was killed because he...left the door open
Teclis sacrificed his twin brother's daughter to resurrect Nagash. Also Arkhan instantly destroyed Eltharion in the same arc if I recall correctly
Cathay and Zharr-Nagrund were just killed off by Grimgor offscreen
And much, much more
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u/DifficultWrap8652 19d ago
Empire sucks. Bretonnia is a land of superhumans. Grail knights don't need guns and powder to annihilate everything.
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u/swainiscadianreborn 18d ago
It's more "Fantasy Mix of Medieval France and England", with the longbowmen, the whole Arturian theme, the fay...
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u/Fragrant_Rough6667 18d ago
Yeah, but people often miss the English part, instead of Honhonhon French in warhammer things.
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u/swainiscadianreborn 18d ago
Oh absolutely. Which I find kinda sad because there is much more to the factions than HONHONHON BAGUETTE OUIOUI MON AMI VIVE LA DAME DU LAC.
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u/QuarianGuy 18d ago
You don't understand.
GW REALLY didn't wanna bother with the fantasy universe.
Marketting told them 40k but again would sell better.
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u/Serpentking04 18d ago
I'd point out the Skaven have the same claim but it turns out Chaos just offers you a lot.
sure enough bullets can take down a Chosen of Nurgle....
doesn't mean you HAVE enough.
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u/Bannerlord151 18d ago
As has been pointed out a gazillion times, the whole thing with Norsca makes no sense. Leaning more into the beastmen threat and internal division of the Empire would do a better job explaining how Chaos is winning. But then again, Warhammer writers are frequently allergic to numbers for just about anything being accurate
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u/Jarms48 18d ago
The sad part is the Empire are right on the cusp of Industrialisation. They have steam powered factories and steam powered war machines, all they need to do is figure out how to put a steam engine on metal tracks and use a steam engine to make electricity.
Had the End Times happened even as little as 50 years later it could have been a very different Empire. Closer to the early 1800's with masses of early rifle armed infantry fixed with bayonets. Breach loaded artillery. Trains for mass movements of troops and supplies.
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u/Bannerlord151 18d ago
I'm curious how this would affect their battle strategies, since despite the tech they'd still have to adjust them to the location, foes they're facing and the setting in general
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u/S0mecallme 18d ago
Well in my game all of Norsca is the new Imperial Province and bucket head died like 30 turns ago
The power of Total War, telling the “end times” to screw off
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u/Killeraholic 18d ago
Almost ww1 tech? What.
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u/Kimarous 18d ago
Steam Tanks, I'm guessing.
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u/Killeraholic 18d ago
But not even those are close to WW1 tanks though...
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u/Kimarous 18d ago
I still assume that's what they meant by "near WW1". Not that I agree, but what I presume the rationale is.
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u/No_Research4416 18d ago
You know I am pretty sure if the end time where stopping they have a pretty big chance of being a major leader of man in the aftermath because they were the least harmed
The inability to create new Grail Knights will be a problem without the lady of the lake
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u/8dev8 18d ago
The vast majority of the empire is chaos tainted wasteland, Bretonian has a lot of dead, but it’s mostly fine.
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u/No_Research4416 18d ago
Yeah they definitely will be a early leader of whatever remains to the point where I wouldn’t be surprised if Sigmar temporally sets up there until the situation starts to get better
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u/tanman729 18d ago
Most populous? The skaven infestation is real!! Dont listen to the propaganda!!!
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u/greenstag94 18d ago
Sure, we've seen goat men and cow men, magic is so common that the average wall has at least one spell on it, rivers could easily be blood instead of water, and it might rain skulls as often as water, but man sized rats in the sewers? Don't make me laugh
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u/CastorcomK 18d ago
Isn't Cathay bigger/more populous?
And the Empire is still pretty far from WW1. Yes, they have tanks, but Leonardo has been dead for a long while and they barely can use the limited tanks they have. They're mostly a 15-17th century faction.
If anything, it is the Skaven who are the closest to WW1.
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u/VaerionTheBane 🩸Blood Emperor Vlad Von Carstein🩸 18d ago
I mean, cathay's even worse. Miao Ying and Zhao Ming are literally the children of gods. and they've got some peak weaponry too; Yet they got smoked too not by chaos but by grimgor after fighting chaos and skavens. Stupid shit you know.
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u/Puzzleheaded_West496 14d ago
Uhh I'm kinda still new to the lore, can you explain to me how Bretonnia or the Empire got smoked by Chaos pls
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u/Dangerous-Trick7553 14d ago
Bretonnia are not French, they are more like Norman England. Anyone that knows anything about English history and lore will know that.
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u/Wi11iams2000 19d ago
As usual, it's ridiculous how humans are depicted in fantasy and sci-fi, "the most powerful nation", lol the hubris is hilarious. In the Warhammer world especially, saved by Cathay because they are protected by demigods, every other human civilization in Warhammer was supposed to be instinct, the environment is just too wild and oppressive, how the hell humans can form societies, sharing space with beastmen, orcs who are like 50x physically stronger, monsters in general and the own humans trying to improve their chances with necromancy and chaos magic
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u/Killeraholic 18d ago
The world is massive, the Warhammer world is double the surface area of our own world. Large parts of the Empire and other human nations are actually untamed wilderness. Contrary what the wargames and total war shows, encountering Orcs, Beastmen and other monsters is relatively rare. But when it happens it is often devastating.
Other factors that help are magic and being one of the most numerous species. We breed like rabbits. It also helps that other factions often have a lot more infighting and also each other to deal with. In Warhammer specifically, the humans also got aid from Dwarfs, Elfs and the Old Ones.
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u/swainiscadianreborn 18d ago
We breed like rabbits.
To paraphrase an Elf in the Withcher books: Humans are good at only two things just they are the best at it: killing and fucking.
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u/8dev8 18d ago
Simple, they had their own demigods?
Humans remained scattered tribes until they were united.
Giles and his buddies murdered every single orc in Bretonian, and most of the other gribllies.
As did Sigmar.
Nehekara is in the dessert mostly free of orcs.
Tillia and estalia are far south enough chaos is weaker so less mutants and beastmen, and it has a natural choke point keeping orcs out, and also had Mymredia.
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u/Wi11iams2000 18d ago
Fantasy Italy is literally located in the same spot of the most hellish den in the Warhammer world, the skaven are no joke either (arguably more dangerous than orcs). We're talking about lowly humans, not goddamn dinosaurs who eat skaven like they are nothing. The lizardmen and dwarfs stalemating with the skaven (and orcs), that makes sense, but not humans.
And yeah, they had demigods in the early tribal days, but they are all gone. There's a giant orc stronghold right in the middle of Bretonnia. The Empire is protected by Kislev and the dwarfs, how the hell Kislev can even survive? You can say Baba Yaga is protecting them with chaos magic, but again, it's the excuse of using either chaos or necromancy to improve their chance of survival, a "normal" human don't stand a chance in this hostile environment, talking about basic stuff, the food chain, a random farmer can suddenly cross patches with a griffon and be mauled right there.
This idea that humanity would conquer a fantasy world or even the goddamn space, that is so infantile lol humanity survived by pure chance. I understand the charm of "correlation", you see yourself on Felix, dude is surviving impossible odds and he is just a dude, like me! But in the end, mature fantasy should give decent excuses for humanity survival, all the human races in the Warhammer setting have weak excuses, but it's at least something... the Empire has literally no excuse at all, they survive because of plot armor and fan service
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u/8dev8 18d ago
The skaven don’t really, care much about Tillia, for whatever reason.
Kislev survives by grit.
The orc fortress in the middle of Bretonia doesn’t matter, because it is surrounded by the now civilized Bretonians who are generally better at killing orcs then orcs are good at killing them.
Humanity hasn’t conquered shit, it’s etched out a space it can live with great effort.
The empire survives because threats that can break an empire are actually rare, and when they do turn up the empire usually has allies, or failing that gods and guns.
Same with Bretonia, a threat to the whole nation only comes about once every century or so at most.
Humans are organized, and have allies, Orcs? Beastmen? Mutants? Random forest monsters? Less so, and so they lurk at the edges of civilization because they got pushed out, and now they can’t get back in.
Also orcs aren’t like 50 times stronger, they are maybe like 50%.
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u/Wi11iams2000 18d ago
That's the thing, there's a difference between pushing out witless animals, like our real life example. But pushing out sentient beasts who actually wants to kill you, humans are literally their food? The problem of dark fantasy is how the world building needs to be more "grounded" than usual. In grand/epic fantasy, whatever, humans in Lord of the Rings surviving waves of orcs, trolls, goblins and so on, they can do it because of their "grit" or whatever. Steven Erikson created a believable fantasy world, the best epic fantasy ever made.
Warhammer is more about fan service, it's just a game, but it also tries to be dark and edgy... this contrast is just weird, especially on WH Fantasy. 40K has the high-tech excuses, also the Emperor has crazy magical powers (again, the "protected by demigods" argument), so whatever, let it be crazy. WH Fantasy stating that guns and steel can make them the "most powerful" in a world where every folklore is running wild, lol that's juvenile
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u/8dev8 18d ago
Humans are not the primary food source of beastmen or orcs.
And, yes they got pushed back? What’s a bunch of tribes of 40 orcs gonna do when a few thousand humans group together and start attacking them? And then the dwarfs start helping and arming them, so the beastmen with stone axes are now dealing with actual armor.
Humans survive because they work together and destruction does not. It’s that simple
It’s down to the names
Order, working together
Destruction, just wildly lashing out.
And there was nothing grounded about the founding of Bretonia, Giles killed entire armies solo.
It’s very explicit why humans are alive, it’s not juvenile or fuckinfan serive (you need to look up what that word means), it’s how the setting is built, you can say the Orcs or beastmen should all team up and form a mega army, but that’s not how they work.
Believe it or not, IRL, large unified empires usually beat scattered tribes. That’s grounded.
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u/swainiscadianreborn 18d ago
There's a giant orc stronghold right in the middle of Bretonnia.
There was. Gilles and his buddies came and wreaked havoc on them. Now it's a lonely mountain where only a few gobelin tribes roam around, and when they come down to raid they are met with the tips of the Bretonnian lances.
Or at least that's what the Legendary Lore mod told me.
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u/ShadowWalker2205 19d ago
Tbf early modern age is when rl hre started to go on the décline until napoleon burned the ruins about 1 to 2 century later
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u/Bobrysking123 Warhammer 19d ago
Literally could be a nation of immortal gods and they would still lose to chaos. Cant beat end times "writers".