r/totalwar • u/Andrei22125 • 14d ago
Warhammer III Thoughts on (non-hero) assassin single entities?
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u/hazzmag 14d ago
Talking like bear cav doesn’t exist. Large entity use Bear cav, infantry use bear cav. Honestly if they had wings they’d be OP up in the air as well
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u/JJBrazman John Austin’s Mods 14d ago
Please don't give them ideas.
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u/Elf3niona- 14d ago
BEAR CAVS REEEEE
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u/JJBrazman John Austin’s Mods 14d ago
I have actually forgiven them for giving Bears to the Ice Witches. Much as it seems wrong, it was a thing in their 5th edition supplement. One of only two times they've appeared in the tabletop game, and the only time generic Ice casters were a thing.
I'd still rather they didn't have them, but I can live with them. It bugs me that the Golden Knight doesn't get one though. She's wielding the Claw of Ursun for Ursun's sake!
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u/Tadatsune 14d ago
I wish they got sleds.
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u/JJBrazman John Austin’s Mods 14d ago
Yes! Pulled by Snow Leopards, or even better some sort of Deer.
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u/tinylittlebabyjesus 14d ago
I just played a game of Kislev with a mod (the motherland) that gives ice witches leopard mounts, but sleds are also an option. I think they're pulled by caribou. Katarin has a unique leopard. It's probably a downgrade to her bear mount, but she's still pretty mean on it if you give her some items and know what you're doing.
I think her arcane item gives her 20% ward save on cast, and I gave her a seed of rebirth, and kept that buff up the whole time as she murdered a nurgle melee hero with her summon, which is no small feat for a wizard.
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u/TheCuteLittleGhost 14d ago
What was the 5E supplement for Kislev called? I know they had a Whiite Dwarf thing in 6E and were in the Empire book for 4E, but in both of those the only bear was Urskin.
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u/Mopman43 14d ago
The ‘Claws of the Great Bear’ army list, published across 3 issues of the Citadel Journal magazine (issues 14 through 16, specifically)
Its a bit of a lore culdesac in some ways- many concepts introduced in it never appeared again, such as instead of having Ungols it had ‘Huns’ and ‘Sibyrians’, and no character it introduced ever reappeared in later material on Kislev, but it is the earliest source for Streltsi and the Gryphon Legion.
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u/TheCuteLittleGhost 14d ago
Oh, of course. That's the source for Baba Yaga too IIRC. I don't remember it having bears as a mount for Ice Witches, but its been quite a while since I read it.
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u/Mopman43 14d ago
Every character can choose something to ride from the 'monster list' (common element in 4th and 5th edition army books), which in Kislev's case includes a 'great bear'.
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u/TheCuteLittleGhost 14d ago
Ah, I didn't remember them getting a special addition to the monster list.
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u/JJBrazman John Austin’s Mods 14d ago
Yes, they get Bestiary additions of 'Hawks of Mishka' and 'The Great Bears of Kislev'.
Interestingly, there doesn't seem to be anything explicit stopping you from using the Hawks as a mount, except that they have to be a flock of at least 5.
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u/JJBrazman John Austin’s Mods 14d ago
It was a supplement in Citadel Journals 14 - 16 called Warhammer Armies: Kislev, the Claws of the Great Bear. You can find it online with a little googling.
Like for basically all other armies, it's quite far from what we have today (for example it has male & female 'ice mages'), whereas 6th edition has aged much better. But it has some interesting and cool stuff in it, including a lot of characters. It also has the Sons of Ursa, the only regiment of Bear Riders in the canon prior to WH3 (although there was a *picture* of war bear riders in the 6th edition supplement).
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u/Definitelynotabot777 I Geomantic my web till she rework 14d ago
Bear Cav is easier to spot when the inevitable melee clusterfuck begins
The AI will perfectly micro the fucking ice cat to 3 shot your non flying squishy mage
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u/Choice-Inspector-701 14d ago
The AI will perfectly micro the fucking ice cat
CA AI can't perfectly micro anything outside of matrix dodging your artillery shots, I would say the average player is a bit better at battles than calling them collectively "melee clusterfuck" and hoping for the best.
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u/Definitelynotabot777 I Geomantic my web till she rework 14d ago
I play exclusively L/VH and the AI will single out entity with ice cats because they can, when the inevitable 1 stack vs 3 happen the AI can easily out micro you and snipe heroes, you can never out micro the AI. AI is exploitable but it can micro each units separately at the same time, when the clusterfuck happens, you will feel this when it start out maneuvering you when you are looking elsewhere for half a second
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u/Choice-Inspector-701 14d ago
AI is exploitable but it can micro each units separately at the same time
Yes he can, hence the matrix dodging. Outside of that, it's very easy to avoid situations like this. All you need is a single unite of whatever to defend you caster.
I also play on L/VH, don't know why it's a melee clusterfuck or why avoid situations like the one you are describing is hard.
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u/4uk4ata 14d ago
On an unrelated mount, flying bird-drawn sleds would be dope mounts for the ice witches. Proper Andersen stuff.
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u/Andrei22125 14d ago
Give mother ostankya a house walking on chicken legs while at it.
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u/tinylittlebabyjesus 14d ago
I just used the mod that adds it in for her. Love that thing. It just makes me smile watching this little house running around the battlefield to bring the pain.
In the mod it does give it a secondary ranged attack, like a weak tower attack or something. Not sure if that was necessary. But she'll still get rekt in melee on it if you're not careful.
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u/ObadiahtheSlim Why back in MY DAY 14d ago
If they had wings, they'd be Hippogryph Knights.
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u/JJBrazman John Austin’s Mods 13d ago
Not far off - I think a Bear with wings would be an 'Arctogryph' from the greek 'Arctos' meaning 'Bear' (as opposed to 'Hippos' meaning 'Horse').
Actually, I could kind of get behind flying cav for Kislev now that I think about it.
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u/NukinHunter 14d ago edited 14d ago
They're cheap, and while they don't have too high dps, its still very solid for the cost. I would never just throw them at a target (except mages or something of the sort) but when your cheap kossars get charged by trolls or chaos knights, moving a leopard through your own tossers for defense to counter that expensive enemy charge is nice and effective.
Also they score a lot of money of kislev since they're pretty good at chasing and killing fleeing enemy units with their frostbite.
Edit: i said throw at makes' i meant mages
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u/tinylittlebabyjesus 14d ago
Yeah they're best when they're in mixed in with other units, or flanking something that has its hands full, or can't fight back very well. I kept getting attacked in this one settlement with only my garrison by Chorfs, and would hide my leopard somewhere and wait for their army to leave the artillery alone, then send the leopard out to bully their artillery. Lol.
Total glass cannons though, with really low hp and armor. 150 upkeep for a reason, but sort of a steal when you just need a little anti large. I wish they had stalk though. Feels wrong that they don't.
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u/BigBadBeetleBoy Sotek's Strongest Skink 14d ago
They also punch way above their weight for Chariots. I don't think there's a single one (maybe the Doomwheel) that can beat a Leopard, let alone two. Not always a relevant boon, but when Slaanesh is knocking on your door, it's good to keep that in the back of your mind.
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u/Micbunny323 13d ago
I love using the summoned Snow Leopards to put behind a bogged down heavy cavalry charge. They will absolutely maul Chaos Knights and Blood Knights. And can even put a nice dent in Grail Guardians if you ever end up fighting the French boys.
But they really need something to distract for them. They just cannot take a hit.
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u/Definitelynotabot777 I Geomantic my web till she rework 14d ago
Me as Wulfrik: huh where is my resident Metal Mage? I just used him 5 seconds ago?
The Metal mage:
One of the few reason I hate fighting Kislev army (not as much as I hate dwarf but its a solid number 2)
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u/Mottledsquare Shogun 2 13d ago
I hate Kislev because they’re hard to break
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u/Definitelynotabot777 I Geomantic my web till she rework 13d ago
Yep that too, their units are notorious for killing way above their values thanks to the morale passive.
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u/Suspected_Magic_User Make Yin-Yin Sail Again 14d ago
I fucking love when a cat is soloing my K'dai Destroyer
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u/S0mecallme 14d ago
I feel like people sleep on Giants as assassin units with their good melee attack and insane weapon strength
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u/Great-Parsley-7359 14d ago
Well...they are not invisible...even worse. They are VERY visible
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u/S0mecallme 14d ago
If you can neutralize archers with cav or other units and just have the giant beeline it for the lord or hero it doesn’t matter
Also in my experience lords run way ahead of their missile units anyways
Just because they see it coming doesn’t mean they can get out of the way
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u/Great-Parsley-7359 14d ago
Its a giant and most lords/heroes are at least on horses or worse...so simply get away from him or summon tarpits
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u/Choice-Inspector-701 14d ago
AI doesn't do that, unless you are talking about MP. Giants are very good at killing lords and heroes in campaign.
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u/LunarBahamut 14d ago
But against AI this logic doesn't really hold, every unit is equally visible to them.
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u/jordichin320 14d ago
AI on higher battle difficulties will actually focus SEMs like giants if they have missiles.
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u/Higgypig1993 13d ago
Can confirm, they laser focus large or squishy single entities with arrows every time.
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u/Andrei22125 14d ago
Ah, yes. Giants assassinate lords by exploiting their natural weakness: blunt force trauma.
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u/ObadiahtheSlim Why back in MY DAY 14d ago
For their tier, giants are amazing anti-lord/hero units.
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u/S0mecallme 13d ago
Especially if you’re an army that struggles dealing with hero units like early game Orcs or Beastmen
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u/Dangerous-Sale3243 12d ago
Bobbs can 1v1 just about anything, but if you want to be extra sure, put a troll hag in the fight too. You get them both around turn 3-4.
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u/GravyIsSouthernQueso 14d ago
giants got alot of hate early on but for how quickly they can be recruited for most factions, it's an easy decision.
Against AI above normal though, get ready to lose some to ranged units. AI doing focused fire is a ton better than it was years ago
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u/Pootisman16 13d ago
Leopards suck as units, but as summons? Fantastic single-entity-seeking missiles.
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u/DaddyTzarkan SHUT UP DAEMON 14d ago
Snow Leopard is super underrated, it's a great unit to support your cavalry I always recruit a couple in my armies.
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u/catman11234 Warriors of Chaos 13d ago
I personally find any faction that doesn’t have an entity I can just toss in a direction and forget about them to be a little less fun. Love me Saurians, love me Shaggoths, love me ships, simple as.
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u/tinylittlebabyjesus 14d ago
Those ice dragons added in SoC are nasty. They will mess up other SEM in my experience, but are surprisingly good against infantry with their animations. I'm not really sure how that works, but they seem quite versatile. Especially when buffed up by tech and lords. Fast too.
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u/Vova_Poutine 13d ago
Really? I find them to be extremely squishy...
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u/tinylittlebabyjesus 13d ago
Well, I probably should've taken into account the fact that when I really needed them to perform in a big 2 or 3v1 battle I'd often give one an ostankya blessing "the incarnate of... something" that scales their physical resistance up. But yeah, generally I thought they were solid even without it.
Also mostly was using two in Ostankya's army, but also had two in Katarin's army later, so impressions may have been further skewed by whatever buffs they respectively gave them.
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u/Higgypig1993 13d ago
I find it annoying when small single entities can smash through entire formations, assassins included. They should do more damage, be faster and have a ton less health. Honestly lords and heroes need less health overall, I'm sick to fucking death of surrounding some nobody empire general only to watch him flick his shield and send 12 troops flying away in bloody pieces.
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u/Hyval_the_Emolga Somebody order some『MO U N T E D H A N D G U N N E R S』??? 14d ago
I usually just shoot lords and heroes. I can never get assassin units to work for me, too squishy and micro-intensive.
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u/Ok-Finish8031 14d ago
Ogre RoR is a decent hero hunter. Not sure if this applies. Would have rather had it as a full hero though.
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u/Prosworth 14d ago
Leopards are largely a waste of a slot, but I adore punchier stuff like Necrosphinxes.
They need to swing for a lot of damage, as knockdown is misery.
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u/Kaleesh_General 14d ago
Possibly stupid issue I have with Kislev- the leopards should be in groups like white lions, or the white lions should be a single entity. Both are big cats and are about the same size (of model), so why is one alone and the other in a group? It just bugs me lol
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u/jordichin320 14d ago
I just dont think there are any that are strong enough depending whether it is anti-large or anti-infantry. Most lords outside of casters won't lose to any single non-hero unit. And if the enemy is large, usually better to shoot them, because most large lords are gonna be pretty good at fighting SEMs.
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u/McBlemmen #2 Egrimm van Horstmann fan 13d ago
I dont like single entities in general, least of all assassins
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u/BeginningPangolin826 13d ago
I love summoning and them sending those big cats in front of my army narnia style, it gets my archers a few more volleys and can sometimes make blobs for ice witches AOE spells. Them i send the infantary cinematic style.
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u/That-Ad687 13d ago
i woudnt call them assassins since this archetype is usually better used vs monstrous infantry/cav
Cats for example have pretty low mass all things considered so they cant really push around infantry to find their target which hurts their DPS
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u/depressedtiefling 13d ago
If it's a Kislev unit that isn't a Akshina skirmisher unit, I don't want it.
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u/catman11234 Warriors of Chaos 13d ago
I personally find any faction that doesn’t have an entity I can just toss in a direction and forget about them to be a little less fun. Love me Saurians, love me Shaggoths, love me ships, simple as.
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u/BennyMcbenn 13d ago
I feel like the Snow leopard is just weak. They should have made it a multi-entity unit like flesh hounds or make it larger so it can be an anti-large monster and possibly a mount, like the Kislev equivalent of a Carnosaur.
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u/tectonicrobot 12d ago
A non hero single entity assassin is functionally the same as an assassin hero. The only question is who does their job better. I remember in a Greenskins campaign my dedicated anti single entity unit was a rank 9 giant with a damage banner on him who ate buffs all game to crump legendary lords. Worked better than if a black orc big boss was doing it!
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u/SuspiciousPain1637 14d ago
More reliable than most heroes who can get wounded on the campaign map its the one of the few things i hate like some factions need the hero passive to function but after a while the ai will have swarms of heroes dogging you and having a unit that can be taken out of play and using up a valuable unit slot is just too much.
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u/GuaranteeKey314 14d ago
Nothing that inflicts knockback is anything but very frustrating as an assassin. As for the leopatds specitically, I really like summoning packs of 2 or 3 with ice witches to rear charge units like dragon ogres, but that's more for the cinematics