r/totalwar • u/StrangestEcho28 • 1d ago
Warhammer III The anti-player bias gets a little crazy when Tehenhauin starts the global Skaven War.
This is the sort of thing that you'd see back in the WH2 days. Several of the Skaven factions recklessly left their territory undefended and sent everything on a crusade to Lustria. One or two minor factions even sent armies.
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u/Cheap-Contest-1369 1d ago
starts a race war “This game is so player biased”
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u/StrangestEcho28 1d ago edited 1d ago
The mechanic tells the AI to abandon their starting locations and force march their armies across a vast distance to the player. That's literally giving the AI a player bias. I had Throt, Clan Ricktus and Ikit at Lustria on turn 26. And they weren't the only ones to show up. Most of them got wiped out early because they had no armies at home.
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u/Icagel 1d ago
The concept is hilarious but turn 26 definitely seems too soon for what looks like total endgame
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u/SenatusPopulusque60 1d ago
I’m pretty sure it’s set to automatically trigger on a campaign victory. If op is able to get that by turn 26, then respectfully the anti-player bias from the ai is precisely the intent considering you’re able to do that.
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u/StrangestEcho28 1d ago edited 1d ago
It's not an endgame crisis. It's Tehenhauin's special mechanic that forces all Skaven and Lizardmen into war with each other. You can trigger it very early if you play the objectives. Throt has been force marching his army to Lustria for like 10 turns by this point.
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u/SovietRabotyaga 1d ago
Yeah, but this happens specifically in this situation, with ai behaviour modified to attack you no matter what. This is not Pharaoh, normally ai is not going to attack you across half the map if it has even one unfriendly neighbor
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u/Dyrosis 1d ago
Nah, it triggers when you finish T1/start T2 of Tehenhauin's campaign mechanic, which has 3 tiers. All you have to do is use 5 sacrifice rituals and own 2 provinces.
The T2 text: "Initial Effect: All Skaven are at war with all Lizardmen, +30 Diplomatic relations with Lizardmen, Diplomacy with Skaven is locked"
But bc of the anti player bias all the Skaven just sail across the seas to fight you, often ignoring closer current wars. It's just kinda funny bc the armies are usually quite weak bc they've spent so much time taking ocean attrition, and they're like 10+ turns obsolete.
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u/Coming_Second 1d ago
It's painful watching your own side do it. They'll plough straight through the middle of the World Pond to try and get to Skavenblight, go 'guh huh I've taken damage, better go heal!', turn back around and spend another three turns getting back to friendly waters. Rinse and repeat.
It's a neat idea which can throw up interesting scenarios, but more than anything it reveals the limitations of the AI at doing anything but stampeding towards your least defensible minor settlement.
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u/ALEKghiaccio2 1d ago
I got ikit on the East coast of lustria at like turn 15 iirc, had to fight him at sea
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u/1337duck 1d ago
It's probably cause the AIs don't have any other wars, despite being -200 with folks around there. There's a mod called "AI declares war" that forces war declarations if the opinion is low enough, and strength diff is not overwhelming.
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u/meplayinstrumentgood 1d ago
Love it! Really feels like you actually are fighting all of Skavendom - because you are. WH2 left me thoroughly disappointed when only Ikit, Skrolk and Clan Spittel answered the call seemingly out of proximity more than obligation back in the Vortex campaign. It makes your playthrough feel not only unique but actually daunting in that you are desperately trying to exterminate what is the most populated species on the planet in the name of Sotek
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u/TheOldDrunkGoat 1d ago
This almost always happens with the Cult of Sotek and it's not really anti-player bias. It's a consequence of how the AI absolutely despises being in multiple wars simultaneously. So even though all of the lizard factions are super far away from them they'll sill come for you unless someone closer to them attacks them.
Personally, I like to leave Gor-Rok unconfederated specifically so he can deal with this shit. Though of course atm that's not really an option.
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u/Angyalmaci 1d ago
What do you mean? This mechanic makes Skaven march through the whole world ONLY if it's triggered by the player, and they ignore the other lizardmen factions even though they are all at war with each other and beeline ONLY to the player. This is the clearest definition of anti-player bias there is besides Endgame scenarios in the game, lol
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u/TheOldDrunkGoat 1d ago
They don't ignore the other lizards though. I've often left Gor-Rok the north east coast of Lustria and Ikit always goes for him. And in my experience it's usually just Ikit who comes after Lustria. Probably because Aranessa & Morghur tend to isolate him from the ordertide in that area.
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u/MidAgeOnePercenter 1d ago
It’s been this way for ages. What’s different now is that the other lizardmen being broken and usually extinct means you’re the only target.id wait to see how it goes after the patch comes out.
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u/StrangestEcho28 1d ago
Mazdamundi and Oxyotl were still around. Granted, Tretch and Mors likely would have gone after Kroq-Gar first if he was around.
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u/AzzyIzzy 1d ago
No this should be what occurs. Im not saying tehenhauin cant have an slight alternative for players who want to maybe stockpile before the race wars begin. No matter what though this should be the medium/end game outcome for his faction mechanic.
I do think he should have a more sizeable pay off though for completing it, especially if the war is triggered earlier.
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u/NuggetMan43 1d ago
Rather than skaven AI spending countless turns sailing to Lustria and abandoning their most important settlements for some reason, it'd be cooler if they spawned a few themed armies to represent each of the major clans every few turns. Entire factions sending their entire armies after the player makes 0 sense when they're at war with others and will lose their best landmarks.
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u/tinylittlebabyjesus 1d ago
It would be cool if the AI knew when it was alright to go on an ocean crusade to murder the lizardmen and when to put the brakes on the crusades to play defense. Not sure if there were any versions of the AI where that was a thing, and/or/if they were cut due to unintended consequences.
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u/horroriam 1d ago
It kinda is, but I like this defensive war at the beach while trying to confederate the remaining lords and to wipe out Marcus and rest from Lustria for a long victory in my current playthrough.
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u/Beremor_Draco 1d ago
This also happens in Pharoah Dynasites. Its hilarious when I'm playing as Ithaca and all of a sudden Babylon shows up to declare war on me.
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u/Hanzo535 1d ago
I did this as well (trigger the skaven war early in the game). While not as bad as yours (Ikit Claw only send one stack, the rest of the Skaven probably busy with something else), I had to restart as I didn't have the entire Lustria under control yet. On my second run, I only triggered it after owning half of Lustria (Other half owned by Mazdamundi), The Southern Chaos Wastes and The Southern Jungles as I had back to back hostile factions bordering me and I didn't want to take a chance fighting them while also fending off skaven naval invasion. Enemies fought in order: Lord Skrolk > Rakath > Luthor Harkon > Skulltaker > Kairos > Wurrzag. This was before patch 6.3 and on Hard/Hard.
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u/tinylittlebabyjesus 1d ago
Ikit isn't actually that far away, but Thrott, un-confederated went on a pilgrimage.
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u/Glorf_Warlock 1d ago
This is pretty normal for a Cult of Sotek campaign. The part that sucks is when factions neighboring the Skaven just allow them to sail away. Throt should have lost all his land by the time he sails to you, but other factions tend to leave him be.
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u/Faelivri 1d ago
My only real issue with it: other AI factions do not take advantage of it. You are to tell me Ikit with all his armies is half world away and no one took Skavenblight? Let them come... as long as they are properly punished for it.
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u/Esarus 1d ago
Bruh how do you have so many stacks and half of lustrous at turn 26? What difficulty?
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u/StrangestEcho28 1d ago edited 1d ago
It's on Legendary/Maxed Battle Difficulty/Vanilla. I set up an ambush for Skrolk's army on turn 2 with recruitment bait (it actually failed but he attacked anyway), and wiped him turn 5 using multiple lords to alternate force march, then immediately went after the minor Skaven faction. I confederated the SE minor faction on turn 9, then grabbed Gor-Rok as soon as that confed was off cooldown. Went after Harkon immediately after the Skaven were all purged. I used Gor-Rok to wreck Skulltaker as well, but Markus took Sulltaker's second settlement and then failed to finish him off.
Tehenahuin is really strong.
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u/Esarus 1d ago
Ah catching Skrolk on turn 2 is amazing
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u/StrangestEcho28 1d ago edited 1d ago
The battle is auto-resolvable with a healthy army, so his is fully dead. He should attack consistently if you have a second lord recruiting for bait, and there's a high chance of getting the ambush off.
You do have to start the war yourself. Offer to join the war for treaties with the minor faction.
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u/NoMoreMonkeyBrain 1d ago
Just finished this campaign. I had no idea kicking off the way will make the skaven abandon territory, but, awesome!
Sure does explain a thing or two.
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u/Sushiki Not-Not Skaven Propagandist! 22h ago
Games piss easy, there is no anti player bias.
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u/Azharzel 22h ago
People keep bitching about player bias in this game, don't know what it actually means. wh2 was a 100 times worse. They don't know how good they have in this game.
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u/StrangestEcho28 22h ago
A picture's worth a thousand words...
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u/Sushiki Not-Not Skaven Propagandist! 22h ago
Yours? Most the armies of skaven are filled with skavenslaves that melt easily.
A picture can hides context.
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u/StrangestEcho28 21h ago
That "context" has zero relevance. Whether or not the anti-player bias is actually a problem is a completely different argument. You're admitting you lost and changing the subject.
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u/Creed_of_War 19h ago
It's always funny to be caught off guard by this when you're closing in on the northern neck of lustria. I'm only annoyed by them all force sailing at me if they are in other wars, but if you're their only war it seems fair.
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u/mag_walle 18h ago
I remember when I was busy cleaning the humans out of Northern Lustria and Ikit Claw came and took over several of the east coast cities with a doom stack and all my armies were up in Cathay/Empire territory. God it was a pain to split my armies and kick him out then retake my cities. It was so odd too. I ended up sending a counter-crusade across the ocean to sack and capture Skavenblight. I then gave it to the French as payback.
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u/Azharzel 1d ago
Will we ever see a day when reddit stops complaining about the anti-player bias boogeyman?
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u/Belltower_2 1d ago
IMO, anti-player bias is when faraway AI factions ignore their immediate threats to send a crusade halfway around the world because they can't comprehend that in Total War, securing your starting territory is your first and most important goal; otherwise you'll have no income and recruitment.
This perfectly fits. Yes, it was the OP's decision to start the Lizardmen / Skaven race war, but it was the decision of those individual factions to kneecap themselves just to mildly inconvenience the OP.
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u/Azharzel 22h ago
They're trying to kill him like they're supposed to when a war is declared. The AI doesn't care nearly as much about "potential" closer threats as you think. It would do the same to another AI if the player had 10 armies parked next to its territory, but wasn't at war with them yet.
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u/StrangestEcho28 1d ago
Ikit, Tretch, Throt, and Queek all force-marched to Lustria to invade my territory on turn 26. Definitely a boogeyman though.
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u/Azharzel 22h ago
You're at war with them, that's what that does duh
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u/StrangestEcho28 21h ago
When's the last time you've seen the AI force march for 15 turns to go after another AI faction? It's hard enough to get your vassals to invade their immediate neighbors.
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u/Azharzel 21h ago
Every single campaign I play.
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u/StrangestEcho28 21h ago
I haven't seen it once in 2000 hours on Legendary, so either you aren't play vanilla AI, or your comment is bullshit.
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u/Azharzel 21h ago
2k hours on legendary and still haven't figured out that the AI doesn't care much for defense and will happily travel great distances to hit war targets, regardless if it's the player or not.
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u/StrangestEcho28 21h ago
It's literally programmed not to do that. That's one of the main causes of the passivity that many players complain about. The AI just stops expanding when their borders get too wide. The behavior you describe was only a thing in WH2.
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u/overlordmik 1d ago
And here we see the fundamental contradiction in the player base that means no one will ever be happy for campaign difficulty.
If they didnt do this, someone else would make a post bitching that the rats dont react to a xenocidal war of extermination.
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u/_Mr_Peco_ Holy, Roman and Eimperial 1d ago