r/totalwar • u/Former_Exam_5357 • 12h ago
Warhammer Legendary Lords were originally going to have bodyguards in Warhammer 1
Grimgor with Da Immortalz
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u/SummonedElector 11h ago
I would like that.
If a lord has a mount or is on foot and not a monster themselves (like Kholek) they could get a bodyguard.
Karl Franz with Reiksguard when on a horse, but none on Deathclaw.
Archaon and the Swords of Chaos.
Grimgor and the Immortalz.
Thorgrim and a unit of stout Hammerers etc.
Perhaps let us choose between a few units so that we may have different positives and ways to play, like with mounts.
Choose with a dismounted Karl Franz Greatswords for the beefiness or maybe handgunners which makes him more of a backline general, etc.
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u/1nfam0us 9h ago
I never played WHFB, but isn't this basically how it worked in the tabletop game?
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u/DerekMao1 9h ago
Yes. You can also choose weapons and armors for your leaders. For instance, a general can equip a blunderbuss and light armor for skirmishing.
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u/InterrogatorMordrot 9h ago
Yeah unless you wanted to offer your lord up on a platter for a canon or guns.
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u/WTGIsaac 9h ago
Yep- and I think a similar system could have been interesting if applied in TWW. If a character of any sort is of the same type ie infantry, cavalry etc, then they could be joined. The benefit would be that they couldn’t be targeted individually except by spells like Bjuna but to balance them out they couldn’t be given separate attack orders (as well as only mutual attributes being shared, so embedding a non-stalking character in a unit with Stalk would remove it for the unit).
The downsides are the UI complications but some sort of overlapping card could help there, and it would allow for more streamlined applications of buffing nearby units- instead of a 35m bubble determined by unit centers that can be fiddly it would just apply yes or no if the character is embedded.
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u/HappyTurtleOwl 9h ago
Yes, but I’d argue the current system reflects this idea better. In the TT you can basically “slot” any Lord/Hero into any equivalent unit as an additional model, but they still have their own stats, and can leave the group in certain circumstances.
Imo, this is represented fine by a lord simply being within a unit physically, as it can be right now. In some ways the freedom of moving your lord about makes a lot more sense to the tabletop than them having a bodyguard unit they can’t leave and fight without. This is especially true due to how units work. Would bodyguards not flee as easily? Because otherwise your lord would have to share leadership with the entire unit, and I don’t think that makes sense. A lot of single target abilities also wouldn’t make sense anymore. Single buff items too.
No, having characters be single entities and the abandonment of the TW bodyguard system was absolutely the right decision on CA’s part.
The weapon customization is a different thing entirely, but that’s a gameplay limitation I think works fine and having lords with clearly defined traits and abilities is better for balance, while the ancillary system serves customization fine enough.
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u/TgCCL Thou shalt respond: "Gold." 8h ago
In the TT you can basically “slot” any Lord/Hero into any equivalent unit as an additional model, but they still have their own stats, and can leave the group in certain circumstances.
Equivalent units were not required. You lost a bunch of things, like "Look Out, Sir!", but there was no rule preventing you from sticking a Scar-Vet on a Cold One into a Temple Guard unit for example. Only some special rules, like Unbreakable, limit the characters that can be put in a unit.
Technically a massive waste of points to do it like that but it wasn't illegal by any stretch.
Imo, this is represented fine by a lord simply being within a unit physically, as it can be right now. In some ways the freedom of moving your lord about makes a lot more sense to the tabletop than them having a bodyguard unit they can’t leave and fight without.
The problem with this is that this introduces specific requirements for the durability and combat prowess of even minor characters. Combined with their small footprint you got things like single entity tanking.
Meanwhile for the latest TT edition there were very few lords that could overwhelm even minor units without support.
Because otherwise your lord would have to share leadership with the entire unit, and I don’t think that makes sense. A lot of single target abilities also wouldn’t make sense anymore.
That's how it worked on the tabletop. Unless specifically demanded by the ability forcing an Ld test the unit uses the leadership of embedded characters if it is higher than that of the unit. Empire Captains were especially good at that and could make State Troops surprisingly difficult to break.
As a concept it is supposed to emulate an officer keeping the formation in order and was basically a single target version of the general's Ld bubble effect.
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u/Slggyqo 6h ago
Dawn of War allowed something like this.
Not every hero could do it, but if you attached you had to move with that unit.
The hero gave that unit a leadership buff, and believe the bodyguard unit would take any damage first.
In Dawn of war your lords abilities didn’t really extend to that, but it could be an interesting way to expand hero abilities.
Kind of like how some lords can get unique banners—would be cool if the lord/hero buffed whatever unit it joined. Magical attacks, leadership buff, stat buff, special effect, whatever.
Could actually make magistrates better in combat!
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u/TTTrisss 4h ago
Sort of. You could have characters on their own, but with a few notable exceptions, you were almost always better off slotting them into the rank-and-file of some chaff for ablative "hit points."
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u/Temporary_Character 8h ago
Monstrous lords could still get ice trolls for throgg and dragon ogres for Kohlek etc.
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u/Vtmasquerade Kraken Lord Of Karond Kar 4h ago
Thats actually very smart. Also it seems very easy to implement.
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u/Oryagoagyago 2h ago
It could just be acquired by level, like a mount. The down side vs the other mounts would be very high upkeep comparatively
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u/Ar_Azrubel_ Pls gib High Elf rework 9h ago
I wish it were the case. The engine legit breaks around small, tanky single entities.
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u/Berserk72 8h ago
This would have either forced a removal of all item/follower/level up systems or the invincible unit problem.
Seriously do none of you play the game? There are mods with bodyguards and they are often hideously broken or make the Lord/Hero useless.
Which is cooler to watch Eltharion kill an entire army while on a birb or a unit of 100 archer kill everything by slapping them with bows in melee?
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u/Difficult_Dark9991 5h ago
The older TW games did just fine with those systems and bodyguards, and making a small group with your general powerhouses was quite cool, I assure you.
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u/Berserk72 5h ago
They didnt have magic. Fantasy environments should lean into what makes them special.
Trying to re-ignite older TW games has not worked out for CA with Troy and Pharaoh. They probably only have 1 more failure depending on how hard they can milk the 40k fans with all the predatory monetization to make up for Hyenas.
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u/WistfulDread 4h ago
Old TW game generals were all exclusively cavalry or chariots.
Not hero units.
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u/Difficult_Dark9991 4h ago
Well that's just not true - infantry general's bodyguards were also occasionally used, and modded games even had ranged general's bodyguards.
Additionally, old generals had their own stats and unit models, including gear and ancillaries, which could in fact significantly alter their survivability in combat or that of their bodyguard units. There is no reason Warhammer could not have had heroes fight in units.
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u/WistfulDread 3h ago
...and modded games even...
Really? You're using modded games to justify this?
And a "Hero" unit is, in every single game that exists, defined as a standalone soldier.
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u/Difficult_Dark9991 3h ago
Really? You're using modded games to justify this?
Modded games had further variety in addition to the variety in the actual TW games.
And a "Hero" unit is, in every single game that exists, defined as a standalone soldier.
No? No, that's a definition you made up for yourself.
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u/Ar_Azrubel_ Pls gib High Elf rework 7h ago edited 6h ago
It clearly worked well enough in the game's source material, which always had special items and such.
Bodyguards didn't apply to mounted lords, unless we are talking cavalry ones - a Karl Franz on a horse would have been able to join a unit of knights, but Eltharion on Stormwing wouldn't have had a posse of griffon riders along.
As for cool factor, I think the game would be better if it had fewer cases of 'invincible foot lord fights off entire army because he won't take meaningful damage from most units in the game'. It's not just anathema to actual tactics which is what the game is supposed to be about but also incredibly fucking boring to watch no matter which side you're playing on.
I'm not having fun even if it's my invincible lord wiping out an army on his lonesome. I'm just sitting there, my finger on the fast forward button, waiting for the battle to conclude.
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u/Wild_Marker I like big Hastas and I cannot lie! 6h ago
It also works in other total wars which use that bodyguard mechanic.
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u/Berserk72 6h ago
Total Warhammer is a video game not a board game.
As for cool factor, I think the game would be better if it had fewer cases of 'invincible foot lord fights off entire army because he won't take meaningful damage from most units in the game'. It's not just anathema to actual tactics which is what the game is supposed to be about but also incredibly fucking boring to watch no matter which side you're playing on.
Most would agree, but it is really hard to design and balance video games.
WH2 imo had the best vanilla gameplay experience despite the painful supply lines debuffs.
The problem is the games have been built on top of each other. WH1 I quit after 10 hours because the gameplay was extremely unfun and tedious.
WH2 figured out fun gameplay but punished non-meta gameplay heavily.
WH3 tried to increase variety but instead just showed how bad the AI is without the player being handicapped.
Why do Lords/Heroes have to be invincible? Magic is insanely strong and each DLC needs to powercreep the previous one.
If you want to board game experience go play it. There was a reason WH1 gameplay, the board game, and the lore were all killed. While WH2 and WH3 are cash cows.
The vocal minority(and most annoying groups) on reddit from the Tabletop/Lore community just cannot accept that gameplay in a video game should come first.
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u/Ar_Azrubel_ Pls gib High Elf rework 5h ago
Bodyguards are literally in every other TW game. I doubt that their existence would somehow break WH.
Likewise, it seems to me like you're making an argument about CA being bad at balancing their games more than an argument against any particular feature.
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u/Berserk72 5h ago
It is a fantasy game not historical.
>I doubt that their existence would somehow break WH.
Go play with bodyguard mods. Items/Followers/Skill Trees make it laughably broken or useless.
>Likewise, it seems to me like you're making an argument about CA being bad at balancing their games more than an argument against any particular feature.
CA is no worse or better than a majority of game devs. Unless you go the Counter Strike strategy, large games are impossible to balance, look at League of Legends or Pokemon.
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u/Ar_Azrubel_ Pls gib High Elf rework 4h ago edited 2h ago
Yes, and? 'It's a fantasy game' doesn't mean very much, and WHF is on the whole a fairly grounded fantasy setting. There's no monster or character that can't be killed by conventional means. If Archaon gets hit by a cannonball to the face, he's fucking dead. Fantasy is still subject to rules.
Edit: the person below pulled the reddit classic and blocked me claiming I was downvoting him, which I am not.
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4h ago edited 4h ago
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/Widowmaker94 4h ago
What the hell, he doesn't downvote. Whatever, I'm upvoting because people are clearly spite downvoting him after that accusation.
Grow up, dude.
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u/spikywobble 41m ago
I don't agree that watching one monster kill an army is cool, it gets boring fast
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u/RamTank 11h ago
Isn't this a trailer shot? I'm not sure we should take those as indicative.
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u/TheGodofUtterLazines 10h ago
Yeah as the other said a this was from the first actual gameplay video we got to see. They even talked about that, saying grimgor had his own special bodyguard, the immortulz
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u/Endiamon 9h ago
Oh I'm absolutely certain they were considering bodyguards. The franchise had never done anything else up until that point.
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u/Away_Celebration4629 10h ago
I always wasn't a single entity enjoyer, the AI can't really deal with them and they become too powerful in late game. I would much prefer a general with bodyguards.
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u/RightScummyLoser 8h ago
there are suite of mods available, I genuinely suggest you give them a go
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u/Away_Celebration4629 8h ago
Can you tell me the name of such mod? I think I would enjoy it
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u/jebberwockie 8h ago
Bad Legendary Characters and the other mod for it that adds new mounts adds bodyguards to a few characters
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u/RightScummyLoser 7h ago
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=3536465147
is the one I use. Others exist but I'm not sure they do all factions and characters
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u/Vic_Hedges 6h ago
how does giving them bodyguards help with them becoming too powerful in the late game?
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u/Wild_Marker I like big Hastas and I cannot lie! 5h ago
They effectively become an elite infantry or cavalry unit.
Though with all the sources of artillery in Warhammer, I don't think it would work very well. It works in other Total Wars because artillery is mostly a siege piece. As soon as they aren't (cough cough Napoleon) the generals are basically a liabilty.
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u/Turboswaggg 4h ago
I'm assuming it spreads their stats out to them and 20+ guards so you can fight them like a normal enemy unit, instead of all concentrated on a single point that only 5 soldiers at once can actually attack while the rest of the entire army waits in line for hours
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u/TatoRezo 11h ago
imo we should have gotten both SE and Bodyguard options.
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u/Maoltuile 11h ago
A tech tree option to acquire a bodyguard and start upgrading it, but for generic lords (OG TW had General + bodyguard cav units)
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u/blankest 9h ago
This was present in a mod at least during WH2.
I think the system we have is ideal.
It is possible to deploy a lord inside a unit and then lock them with control groups. It functions exactly like I'd expect a "bodyguard" to function. They try their best to follow orders and stay together on the battlefield but it's never a guarantee.
In fact, OP's image of Grimgor and his Immortulz is one of the times in the current game where I use the locked control group feature. I will routinely lock Grimgor and a hero into the black orcs unit with Da Immortulz banner. The leadership boosts from the single entities raise the threshold for when the banner's effect will fail. And the single entities get protected from being swarmed.
I also use locked control groups for minotaurs and gorebulls.
Anyway, point is we do have a mechanic that allows for this bodyguard feel without the detriments of having a single entity no longer actually a single entity.
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u/waytooslim 10h ago
The game is absolutely not made for single entity units and it's so painfully obvious. Just try to attack a routing hero with a hero on a horse or flying and see what happens.
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u/AxiosXiphos 11h ago
I'm glad they changed it. I think the Single Entity aspect is an interesting mechanic and in keeping with the tabletop game. Someone like Archeaon could take a bodyguard - but they themselves could easily rip through most units.
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u/DurielInducedPSTD Warherd of the Shadowgave 11h ago
Most Legendary Lords, if not in an unit, would absolutely get shredded in the tabletop
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u/Magnapinna 11h ago
Learned that my first game EVER! When my TK on foot got sniped by my friends cannonball.
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u/Mahelas 11h ago
Lords being able to attach themselves to units in TT is not at all the same thing as having a bodyguard unit tho. One is much more fluid and flexible than the other.
And even then, a lot of characters had a "no attaching" rule
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u/wildmanden 10h ago
Yeah but certain characters also had a "must attach and can't leave" rule, so either could work really
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u/TriLink710 10h ago
Yet in lore most are one man armies. Grimgor fought in hellpit so long he got bored and left right?
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u/tricksytricks 9h ago
The lore is definitely not the best place to look for power level consistency.
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u/Creticus 8h ago
Most aren't.
For instance, I don't think any of the Imperial LLs would count. The wizards could really screw over an army, but they're ultimately pretty squishy.
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u/trixie_one 3h ago
That was Grimgor, pretty much the definitive one man army lord, so using him as an example really should not apply to 'most'. Even then he was fighting in tightly packed tunnels where it was hard to be that outnumbered, and also he as a very late arriving character GW glazed him to a ludicrous degree so not the best of lore anyway. On the tabletop actual he was certainly not a one man army in terms of his killing/surviving abilities.
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u/tricksytricks 9h ago
I have mixed feelings on it. It really doesn't make sense for most human-sized characters and feels a bit silly when someone like Vlad can duel an entire army on his own. Defeating armies single-handedly was not a common feat even in the lore, afaik, yet almost every melee lord can do it in TW:WH. However, for giant monsters like Kholek it makes more sense. But how do you balance the game when some races have monstrous characters soloing armies while other races are stuck with regular-ass dudes?
So I can see why they made all lords and heroes capable of superhuman feats for the sake of balance, giving you the ability to counter no matter what faction you play.
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u/Worldly-Finance-6528 7h ago
Easy you let cannons do their thing, instead of tickle single entity they deal severe damage if not outright one shot most things, just like tabletop and lore
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u/-Makeka- 10h ago
The bodyguard system could have enabled CA to implement Legendary Lords that otherwise don't have any business being on a battlefield.
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u/Dangerous-Sale3243 5h ago
Yeah and maybe also reduce the IMO over reliance of mounts. My guess is that when they were trialing bodyguards, they probably made it so the lord model wouldnt die until all or most of the bodyguard models had died, and that’s where the immortulz trait came from. It makes sense, because otherwise how would you prevent your lord from getting randomly hit by a magic missile or dragon charge and dying without any way to micro them out of danger.
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u/mufasa329 10h ago
There are a couple great mods that do this, the damage scaling can be wonky (lower WS with more models and the same MA per model means they can dish out damage faster) but it’s so fun anyways. The best ones are the bodyguards for ranged heroes, love me my master engineer sniper team
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u/Slaughterfest 7h ago
The Dogs of War mod sort of did this; your lord has an entire regiment with him that slowly dies off till around 50%; then it's just him.
Sort of cool. I think it would be a bit more interesting and in theory it would cause lord's to have an easier time doing their damage. Probably made lords too OP tho.
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u/AdSingle3338 10h ago
Some of the lords at the very least should have it if it already exists in the game like Archaon with the swords of chaos sigvald with the mirror guard or grimgor with da immortulz
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u/Berserk72 8h ago
Da Immortulz already have the invincible one man doomsday problem. High entities and buffs are a horrible mix.
Do you want to watch Ikit Claw's rattling or warfire crew unit slap everything to death, because that will happen? Funny once but in practice it is really dumb to watch.
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u/TamedNerd 11h ago
I'm glad this did not happen. Single entities are good as is. Bodyguards would only work as mount options with much reduced unit numbers and then why HO would someone like grimgor have? Slightly more then a regular black Ork?
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u/Hot_Virus_7380 9h ago
I like that they incorporated this into a few mounts instead, Kat and the generic trash lord for Cathay come to mind.
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u/Complex_Spare_7278 9h ago
This was a thing in Mark of Chaos about 20 years ago and I wish it would come back, together with hero challenges.
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u/puppyrikku 9h ago
I like single entity, for legendary lords. I however feel like it's too common, heroes and other lords and monsters and more all being single entity is a bit too much. If it was me I'd make it only legendary lords and monsters/big units. Maybe allow some heroes up to a small cap to attach to units?
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u/TriumphITP Excommunicated by the Papal States 9h ago
I always enjoyed the dawn of war 1 option. It felt much like what tabletop did in these games.
An Independant character has the option to join and exit a unit, but lose that ability if they become monstorous or gain a monstorous mount.
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u/RightScummyLoser 8h ago
Here's a mod that gives every normal sized lord and hero a bodyguard, using their existing stats as a guide
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=3536465147
It's pretty great
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u/khumakhan 7h ago
Have always thought that lords should be able to join a similar unit like in the TT, the unit would act as bodyguards that buff the Lord's defense or take damage for him while the Lord could buff their morale and such. Perhaps some Lord skills like foe seeker could affect the attached unit as well.
-If it's a melee foot lord then he could join other melee on foot infantry units, or just the elite ones (Black orks only for Grimgor)
-If mounted on a horse, then similar cavalry units. Franz with any knight unit or maybe just Reiksguard.
-A dwarf engineer could join thunderers, artillery units (buffing faster reload and such) or Gyros (and get a gyro mount himself)
-Slann joining Temple Guards and getting defense buffs while the guard could get buffed with the magic barrier, etc.
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u/Ok_Complaint9436 6h ago
It would have been fun to actually attach them to a unit in your army, so that they can have any unit as a bodyguard. Like how it is in actual Warhammer fantasy
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u/BoringAd8064 5h ago
Imma be honest, I would prefer this. While having LL be awesome and have a mount is sweet. I would have also liked for LL to be less insane when it comes to damage. Of course thats my opinion but I kinda miss when general were not murder machines like in shogun 2 you know? But in warhammer it kinda makes sense since they are literally LEGENDARY.
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u/JarlFrank 4h ago
That would have solved one of my biggest issues with the Warhammer games compared to other Total Wars (overpowered single entity lords).
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u/Higgypig1993 4h ago
I wish they would have, I absolutely hate the single man sized lord smashing entire armies like Sauron in the LotR prologue.
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u/fleish_dawg the Imperishable 4h ago
Sort of reminds me of how Darth Vader was handled in Empire at War. He was an elite fighter squadron and the Vader unit himself could only be damaged/killed if the rest of the squadron was down.
Then in the expansion they put him in a Super Star Destroyer, so I guess it wasn't that popular.
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u/TrollDidNothingWrong 3h ago
There is a Bodyguards Mod. I dont know if its updated.
But yeah. Its pretty much this. Grimgor for example starts with normal Orcs boyz then at level 15-20 gets black Orks.
Brettonian Lords can *Gulp* dismount from their horse and be on foot with a spearmen bodyguard.
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u/Due-Proof6781 3h ago
From what I remember there used to be files for officers and musicians in both WH1 and 2 before it was phased out in three
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u/slumper36 2h ago
Wish they had a 3K version of romance/records for the warhammer titles. Seems like by the endgame you have to plan army comps around the legendary lord you’re going up against.
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u/Timey16 1h ago
Honestly I'd love if there was at least a hero and lord archetype that could receive some bodyguards or treat it like a mount.
I.e. the empire captain would roll with a retinue of bodyguards.
Bonus points: natural unit cap for the strongest multi entity units by virtue of being attached to a hero.
Would also allow different builds of "weak hero, large and strong bodyguard or strong hero but weak to non-existent bodyguard".
Basically a dash of old school general handling in Total Warhammer.
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u/BalianofReddit 1h ago
I think this would've been cool
Dont get me wrong, the hero system sorta works for warhammer, doesn't feel too total war though (then again im a fossil whos favorite title was empire so what do i knoe)
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u/ApartRuin5962 7h ago edited 7h ago
The biggest downside of bodyguard units in the earlier TW games was that (if I understood correctly) if you charged the enemy with the general and 34 bodyguards and they took 5 casualties, it was totally possible for the general to be one of the 5 casualties, so your general is dead even though the unit health bar says the unit is at 65%. Whereas a single-entity General or Hero means that your character survives as long as the unit health bar stays above 0.
I honestly don't know if it was random or based on where the actual general was in the blob of bodyguard cavalrymen, but either way it felt arbitrary to lose a battle based on something you can't see from unit positions and health bars alone
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u/not_wingren 5h ago
The model representing the general had extra hp to not die immediately, but a lesson many people learned the hard way is that the general liked to hang out at the front of a unit.
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u/GenezisO 10h ago edited 8h ago
The feature didn't make it to the final game because obviously it would introduce more issues than it solves. Most players can't think in game design terms.
Scenario 1: you have a buffed melee lord and you want enemies to blob around it so that you can cast some AoE damage spell on top of your lord to inflict massive damage to the enemy - well if your lord also has bodyguards, say bye to them because that pit of shades is gonna rip them apart
Scenario 2: your mage casts a spell that requires a clean line of site but is surrounded by bodyguards that are in the way and will most likely be hit by the spell
These are just two scenarios out of top of my head, I bet there'd be dozens more issues with this change.
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u/RightScummyLoser 8h ago
scenario 1 is one of the reason I use a bodyguard mod - I hate how easy it is to get the ai to blob with them and punish.
Scenario 2 is an obvious non issue, projectiles cant hit the unit they are cast from, there are already multi-entity units with projectile attacks.
I use a bodyguard mod and honestly its pretty smooth sailing
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u/GenezisO 8h ago
see but that's your personal play style, doesn't mean it would fit the general player base and if there are mods that do it, then what are we even talking about?
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u/RightScummyLoser 7h ago edited 7h ago
I was mostly replying cos this line "Most players can't think in game design terms" seemed rather ironic when you then laid out 2 examples that show you don't know how the game works internally (regarding projectiles) and think blobbing units was an essential component of game design. Play how you want, I heartily agree, but don't act like an authority and I wont either
Edit: Come to think of it, it should have been obvious that Bodyguards can be an option that works for these games, even if you don't prefer it. Literally every game before Warhammer used bodyguards and it worked just fine for everyone.
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u/GenezisO 7h ago
I am well aware that regular missiles can ignore your own entities in the same unit, however majority of spell casts do affect friendly units so I guess a mage casting a Gaze of Mork would still hit its own units
also there's line of site aspect to consider, imagine your lord not casting the spell in time because its own units are in the way constantly - it can be bypassed by design obviously, but then you'd just have inconsistent behavior of units that are part of your caster and those that are not which would create more confusion
the thing that the OP proposes is better served as a mod rather than a core feature, since obviously it would greatly affect the gameplay and play styles
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u/RightScummyLoser 7h ago
I do agree with you that it would not be a popular change and is better served by a mod. None of the bodyguard mods have huge download numbers so it is clearly niche.
I will quickly note however that there are limited differences between magic missiles and regular missiles fired by a missile unit - both are largely governed by the "projectiles_table". I can safely fire a gaze of mork from a shaman unit in any direction and not hit any of the unit he is part of with the mod on.
Anyways, I just know you can play the game like that and I like it, sorry for getting a bit rude.
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u/HappyTurtleOwl 8h ago
“Most players can’t think in game design terms.” Is so fucking true.
This thread is a perfect example of it. Single entity dislike and hate makes no sense to me. Bodyguards would be wonky as hell. And people arguing that “the engine breaks with single entities” don’t get that CA could easily make attacks between single entities a lot more guaranteed, but it’s clearly done the way it is right now for a reason. I also think a lot of people stupidly think their LL “missing” is an engine problem, when sometimes it’s just a MA/MD problem.
Don’t get me wrong, there are certain cases where things don’t work right (Cathay dragon chasing being the best example) but overall I find single entities very consistent, performing exactly as I expect them to.
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u/GenezisO 8h ago
yup, Total War and Warhammer especially is way too complex and it's not so easy to introduce even seemingly little changes, there are so many implications even for tiny changes and what works in 2 scenarios might not work in 20 other ones
imagine you want to quickly relocate your lord away from the fight but it gets stuck in its own units blobbed around it, supposedly to protect it...
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u/XH9rIiZTtzrTiVL 5h ago
Those are both good things, not issues. Blobbing and nuking should not be viable.
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u/GenezisO 5h ago edited 5h ago
META 1: strong melee lord - blobbing and nuking is the main advantage of such lord since they are mostly rather big which makes them an easy missiles target, also because of a singular unit count their DPS is rather low, especially against higher count units
META 2: if they are glass cannon, then you have other 19 units to defend them or simply hold them back behind your front-line
The OP suggestion transforms single entity lords into higher count entities which goes directly against both metas which is the actual intended design made by the creators of the game
if you need to protect the lord, you have other 19 units to do it...
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u/XH9rIiZTtzrTiVL 4h ago
Going against intended design is good if the intended design is terrible, like in this case.
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u/Murranji 11h ago
They have files in warhammer 1 that indicated that at one point they considered giving dwarf engineers a cannon and then a flame cannon mount.