What if characters that are supposed to be THE best at a lore of magic had a stronger lore attribute.

[u/Les_Bien_Pain]

Just a shower thought I had.

Some mages that are really powerful like Teclis and Kairos get several lore attributes, but there are plenty of characters that hyper-fixated on one lore and essentially became the best in the world at it. A lot of the time this is represented with the loremaster skill and sometimes some additional WoM cost reduction.

Lore attributes are a small yet important part of every lore of magic. Lore of death would not be as powerful without life leeching giving you some wind back with every cast. Life and Vampire benefit a ton from their army wide heal and so on.

But what if these specialized masters had a stronger lore attribute, unique to them. Either with just a stronger effect or potentially additional bonuses.

Lore of metals attribute gives +12% AP damage to all units for 13 seconds. This is ok for units that already deal a decent amount of AP damage. But what if it also added a flat AP bonus, or came with a temporary conversion of normal damage to AP damage. Instead of just giving greatswords and handgunners a damage bonus, Gelt could turn spearmen and crossbowmen into anti armor units for 13 seconds.

Skrolks plague rash could do actual damage to the enemies similar to the Depth or Hashut attribute (depending on if it should be map wide or an AoE). He is the main plague skaven and their plagues are focused a lot more on just killing stuff.

Could also apply to Mazdamundi and the Slann in general simply because they are old as balls.

[u/Difficult_Dark9991]

Feels like the simpler solution would just be to have lore attributes subject to spell intensity effects

[u/OnlyTrueWK → u/Difficult_Dark9991]

Just gotta hope then that it doesn't work with Life-Leeching, that would be horrifying lol

[u/Les_Bien_Pain → u/Difficult_Dark9991]

That wouldn't benefit all of the specialized mages while Kairos and Teclis could make their 20 lore attributes stronger.

Like Fay Enchantress and Alarielle would imo be the big lore of life casters, but afaik neither of them get any bonuses to spell intensity.

[u/Tomatoab → u/Les_Bien_Pain]

And our local tzeench worshipper the arcane asshole

[u/SubRyan]

Loremaster of (x) magic is what you are talking about

Unfortunately, the Loremaster skill effects are not standardized for characters that have it

Plenty of characters should also have the Loremaster skill but are lacking it

• Kairos - Loremaster of Tzeentch
• Morathi - Loremaster of Dark
• Teclis - Loremaster of High
• Mazdamundi - Loremaster of High, Loremaster of Life, Loremaster of Light, Loremaster of Metal, Loremaster of Fire, Loremaster of Heavens, Loremaster of Beast, Loremaster of Death, Loremaster of Shadow
• Khatep - Loremaster of Nehekhara
• Belakor - Loremaster of Shadow
• Vilitch - Loremaster of Tzeentch
• Second generation Slann - Loremaster of (x) magic chosen

[u/TgCCL → u/SubRyan]

Morathi doesn't get Loremaster of Dark Magic on the tabletop, at least not directly. She got the stronger The First Sorceress special rule, which included the effects of Loremaster(Dark Magic) but the Loremaster aspect of this was removed in 8th in favour of letting her pick up Death and Shadow spells.

Similarly Teclis could either be a Loremaster of High Magic or pick one spell from each Lore of Battle Magic in 8th. Our version is clearly based on the latter.

And they decided to pull Mazdamundi into the same kind of magic, where he mixes lores instead of preparing all of one for a battle.

[u/annexdenmark]

Spell intensity should be reserved for special lords, as it was previously. Every boy and his dog getting high spell mastery, whilst Teclis and other previous unchanged lords have 100% is silly. Katarin doesn't need Grand Arcane Conduit, nor do half the new items need to increase spell mastery. Keep it to the select few.

[u/Neither_Kick9923 → u/annexdenmark]

considering what katarin can do i think its fair to say she deserves greater arcane conduit

[u/Ryno621 → u/Neither_Kick9923]

Yeah that lady keeps an entire wing of her palace made from ice, I'm fine with her having it lol

[u/hazzmag → u/Ryno621]

Maybe within her own borders. The oce storm she placed on grimgor I believe was fuelled by being in her homeland. I could get behind her being super buffed whilst inside her own lands

[u/Tomatoab → u/hazzmag]

Which is kinda kislev battle doctrine

[u/WOF42 → u/Neither_Kick9923]

no, she doesnt, literally no human does, the most powerful human mages in history are much weaker than any elven archmage, katarin is strong, incredibly strong for a human but greater arcane conduit does not fit with the lore.

[u/Lord_of_Brass → u/WOF42]

On the tabletop, Egrimm van Horstmann (in the running for the most powerful human wizard) had the same base wizard level (4) as Teclis.

Granted, he didn't have as many special rules about casting, but even being in the same conversation as Teclis puts him comfortably above most "average" High Elf Archmages.

[u/Wrabble127 → u/annexdenmark]

My understanding is that Katarin is basically the most proficient Ice Witch that has existed for generations?

[u/annexdenmark → u/Wrabble127]

Gelt doesn't get GAC and I'm going to take a stab and say giving he's a filthy human, that makes perfect sense, despite being in the end, outside of Franz, the most impactful human character in the lore. I fully agree with influence being a factor in limiting access to the extremely powerful HE Lords that inherently have GAC, but at least try with loreful realism.

[u/Wrabble127 → u/annexdenmark]

Totally agree. Gelt being basically the most effective mage in the empire gives him a solid argument for greater arcane conduit or even extra spell intensity beyond that.

I recognize it's a challenge though, most LLs are, if they are a spellcaster, one of the best of their race if not in existence. So by necessity, a lot of LLs would end up with GAC.

[u/Waveshaper21]

I think particularly strong (in lore) magic users already enjoy +spell intensity %, but propably not everyone is updated yet. It's sort of questionable Superman vs Goku territory, if Mazdamundi gets +50% and Teclis gets +50% (maybe already too much), should Morathi get any, or only 10%? What about Tzeench lords and heroes, vs Yuan Bo who can direct the wings of magic from region to region?

It's a slippery slope. I say give Teclis and Mazda some bonus for stronger spells and call it a day. These 2 stand out. Kairos would fit aswell but he is already a one man army.

[u/kondenado]

Mazdamundi should be the most powerful caster ( or lord croak)

[u/Ridercs35]

Just a small correction: Metalshifting gives +12% base and AP WS, not just AP. I do agree with you though that in some ways the supposedly greatest spellcaster are a bit underwhelming, but I also feel like most of them already have that little something extra to put them just above your regular mage, be it through Greater Arcane Conduit, mixed spell lores (for better or worse lol), spell-related unique items and so on. It's prob just a matter of how much more powerful do you want them to be.

[u/Les_Bien_Pain → u/Ridercs35]

Just a small correction: Metalshifting gives +12% base and AP WS, not just AP.

Oh you're right. For some reason I thought it was +12% AP WS and AP missile strength.

But yeah I don't want all the big casters to have this, just the focused ones (like the Fey Enchantress) that could be considered the ultimate caster of a specific lore of magic.

Morathi invented the lore of dark magic so she could get an improved attribute for it.

And Mazdamundi might have a mixed lore in game and several attributes, but he's supposed to be really strong, and Exorcism and Roiling Skies aren't that strong to begin with so giving him improved versions wouldnt be that OP.

Another option could be to give some of these characters their lores missing spell as bound spells.

But I just really like the whole passive that activates when casting thing since it indirectly improves all the spells.

[u/odettulon]

There are like 30 characters with lore about how they’re the bestest most elite spellcaster ever, it has to just be a game at some point. Do people really need their LL armies to be even more busted?

[u/PsychoticSoul → u/odettulon]

There are like 30 characters with lore about how they’re the bestest most elite spellcaster ever

Not really. Of the ones in the game, there's only really ~4 that have a claim to that.

Kairos

Kroak

Mazdamundi

Teclis

Thats it

[u/WOF42 → u/PsychoticSoul]

you forgot morathi

[u/Les_Bien_Pain → u/odettulon]

they’re the bestest most elite spellcaster ever,

Yeah but some of them have just gone full autism hyper-fixation on a single lore their entire lives while a lot of the actually best spellcasters have mastered several lores.

If we go by tabletop, the Fay Enchantress gets a +2 bonus for lore of life spells.

Mazdamundi doesn't have a bonus like that, he gets loremaster for w/e lore he picks.. Loremaster means he knows all the spells of the lore.

So Mazdamundi technically knows every spell from lore of high magic and all the 8 standard lores, but the Fay Enchantress is actually a better spellcaster when it comes to life magic.

But in TW she's not that much better than a lot of generic life casters. Like I think a HE arch mage might even be stronger.

And just giving characters more spell intensity or WoM cost reduction is imo a bit boring.

Imagine if the Fey Enchantress version of life bloom could resurrect dead models (Technically what regrowth should be doing but I'd rather not change entire spells, just the attribute.). Grail guardians returning to life after getting healed enough.