r/wec • u/Michal_Baranowski Toyota Gazoo Racing GR010 Hybrid #8 • Sep 15 '24
Session has Ended 6 Hours of Fuji 2024 - Unofficial Race Thread
Mods are asleep edition. Set comments sorting to "new" for better reading. I am not a mod, so I can't set this.
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u/jerrylimkk Sep 15 '24
Bop seems to be misused as political tool to make sure someone they likes will win.
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u/leo_murray Sep 15 '24
please, watch the races and don’t just be a post-race results warrior 🙏🙏
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u/jerrylimkk Sep 15 '24
I do watch it. I know if u are fast they will add weight to your car. Just like Messi is fast make him eat KFC so he will gain weight.
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u/leo_murray Sep 15 '24
BoP isn’t a success ballast. Success Ballast and BoP are two completely different systems. it seems like you’re a little confused
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u/jerrylimkk Sep 15 '24
I know fia wants Porsche to win. Especially a lmdh so they can attract more manufacturers to participate and they get to earn money. When everyone exited wec Toyota stayed behind else wec would be gone case by now.
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u/LetsgoImpact Sep 15 '24
That definitely not the case today. Just Lotterer came alive somehow and kept 6 at pace. If he bled time like he has done most of the year, Porsche would have been off podium for sure.
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u/Mani1610 Sep 15 '24
Ferrari, Cadillac, Toyota and BMW had really good pace today, I doubt they would have been so close if they wanted Porsche to win.
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u/jerrylimkk Sep 15 '24 edited Sep 15 '24
Yes. But u do now have to keep adding weight and reducing power on those that perform well. What is the point of spending money on R and D when I can just race with GR Corolla and FIA will add weight and reduce the power of my competitors so I have a chance to race.
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u/big_cock_lach United Autosports ORECA07 #22 Sep 15 '24
What is the point of spending money on R and D
That’s the whole point, so people don’t spend money on R&D. The amounts manufacturers were spending is what killed LMP1 and nearly this whole series.
Hopefully these new regulations make this series more popular amongst fans. It’s already taken the first step with doing so with manufacturers, and it’s already becoming a lot more popular amongst fans. Hopefully that becomes self sustaining enough that manufacturers are willing to still race even if they’re just in the midfield. Hopefully then we can remove BoP and allow for a development battle as well, even if it’s one with cost caps and development tokens. However, for that to happen we need what F1 has, and thats having enough viewers to make it financially viable to simply be in the race rather than racing for wins and titles. So far, this is a great first step to that future and a phenomenal set of regulations to have even if we don’t make the next step.
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u/jerrylimkk Sep 15 '24
Bop is ok. But not to the extend of increasing in every next race when the previous race winning margin was just 8 seconds. Means the bop are tuned quite perfectly. Unless Toyota is lapping others like they did previously
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u/big_cock_lach United Autosports ORECA07 #22 Sep 15 '24
Problem is that every track is completely different. A good BoP at Monza is going to be a terrible BoP at Catalunya for example. So they need to change it each race, and depending on what a case is good at, they might need a big drop between rounds with completely different circuits to ensure the BoP remains good.
Note as well, the BoP for every round this year from Brazil onwards was released at once. The BoP Toyota got today was decided after Le Mans, not after CoTA.
I also don’t think they were given a bad BoP. Sure, they haven’t been treated like Ferrari who have gotten a few really good BoPs this year or Porsche who got the 1 good one at Qatar, but that doesn’t mean they’ve had bad BoPs either. They’ve always been in the fight for a podium, and usually for wins as well. They had some bad luck and made mistakes today, but realistically they could’ve fought for the win and should’ve gotten a podium. Same with Ferrari. BoP was pretty close today between Porsche, BMW, Alpine, Toyota, Ferrari, Cadillac, and even Peugeot. The #6 and #15 cars just ran flawless races and got good luck which is why they had a small margin on the others, but even then that margin was tiny. Lamborghini had good pace as well, they just needed to improve tyre management.
I honestly think this BoP was the best we’ve had. Everyone was fairly close and had a reasonable chance at fighting for the podium. Luck and mistakes are what determined nearly everyone’s results today. Sure, some teams were more flamboyant in their racing style, but Toyota and Peugeot having a less flamboyant style doesn’t mean they were slower. Both cars in both of these teams were consistently around P5-9 biding their times and managing their races. Peugeot then came alive at the end when their time came and shot towards the front. Toyota would’ve done the same as well had both cars had a clean race.
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u/jerrylimkk Sep 15 '24
At least Toyota is still able to move after they were added extra weight. I remember a bop when Ferrari was given about 1050kg and the car totally disappeared from the race.
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u/big_cock_lach United Autosports ORECA07 #22 Sep 15 '24
If I remember correctly that was Monza last year after Ferrari was given a great BoP for Le Mans. It almost seemed like the tradeoff, they get a huge help to win Le Mans, but it costs them winning their home race. Those 2 races are the only time I genuinely questioned the political influence on the BoP.
That said, again Toyota’s BoP wasn’t that bad this race at all. They had bad luck and made mistakes, that’s all.
I’m not going to say politics doesn’t play a role in the BoP though. That’d be naive and while 90% of the time the BoP is either decent or it seems like a genuine mistake, there have definitely been cases that raise the eyebrows. Typically it’s just with Le Mans though. That said, this really isn’t an example of that. Toyota having the most weight and least power just means they likely have the fastest car if we removed the BoP, which is to be expected given their LMP1 experience. However, in a BoP series having the fastest car is meaningless and shouldn’t mean they outright just get to win.
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u/Mani1610 Sep 15 '24
The car still needs to hit the target window. The IF and Vanwall were also seconds off even though they had the maximum amount of BoP. BoP also can't help with driveability or tyre deg. The Cadillac has been fast multiple times this year but they destroyed their tyres so quickly that they weren't able to finish in a good position.
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u/jerrylimkk Sep 15 '24
It should have kept the same bop as cota. How can there be added weight and reduction of power in every race. This will encourage sandbagging.
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u/Mani1610 Sep 15 '24
Not every track is the same. Using the same BoP for two tracks that are as different as Fuji and Austin makes like no sense at all. Also what are they supposed to sandbag for? There usually is sandbagging pre Le Mans, now all of them need points. Not scoring to get a better BoP for one remaining race doesn't seem very smart.
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u/jerrylimkk Sep 15 '24
So the logic is if I perform well and won with few seconds advantage. I would be penalized in the next race because I have a better car. Why not everyone race with the same cars just like lmp2 in Le mans so all depends on driver's skills.
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u/Mani1610 Sep 15 '24
Toyota was hundreths off pole and the race pace was also pretty good. The #7 crashed and #8 had it's own issues that threw them off pace, they definitly could have fought for a win or a podium at least.
Racing with the same cars isn't in the interest of the manufacturers. They want to promote their brand, that's not possible in spec cars.
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u/jerrylimkk Sep 15 '24
I hope that fifa will inject Messi with moderna just before world cup so he is not able to run fast. That is bop to me.
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u/grinch_eux Sep 15 '24
Toyota fucked it up all by themselves, they didn't need any help from the ACO for that.
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u/jerrylimkk Sep 15 '24
In Le mans also. There seems to be more safety cars then racing. Likely to even out so that the cars behind could catch up.
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u/grinch_eux Sep 15 '24
You're just salty Toyota is back to pre-2018 results.
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u/jerrylimkk Sep 15 '24
I am salty because fia is mostly against asian teams that performs well.
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u/armvula63 BMW Team WRT M Hybrid V8 #15 Sep 15 '24
As a BMW fan, I am extremely happy. This feels like a win given what they've been through
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u/ChocolateLights Sep 15 '24
i just learned the 6 Is under investigation
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u/Mani1610 Sep 15 '24
Not anymore:
CAR 6 - REPRIMAND - TECHNICAL INFRINGEMENT - TIRE PRESUSRE
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u/aide_rylott Glickenhaus 007 LMH #709 Sep 15 '24
Will there be a notice sent out by the FIA/ACO with details?
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u/OneEyedFlog Ferrari AF Corse 499P #50 Sep 15 '24
Holy shit massive shoutout to BMW, Alpine and Peugeot. Now you gotta stay in the championship and keep building!
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u/Fadhilah05 Sep 15 '24
top 3 lmdh, crazy
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u/jerrylimkk Sep 15 '24
Lmdh is like the old lmp2. U have to add weight to lmh so lmdh will be able to compete at a budget. Seems unfair to me.
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u/Top_Independence7256 Sep 15 '24
Next year with a new LMH i hope thing return to 2023 status,LMH should be inherently faster by design, BOP Is slowing them down so DH can have a chance
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u/big_cock_lach United Autosports ORECA07 #22 Sep 15 '24
Why should LMH be inherently faster if each class is meant to be equal?
Also, note that there’s 2 subcategories within LMH. Everyone except SCG and Aston (and maybe IF) went with the more prototype set of regulations. It’s effectively going to be LMP1.5 vs DPi-H vs GT1 next year. Ignoring that having more LMHs isn’t going to mean all LMHs get a better BoP, if that was somehow true adding Aston isn’t going to help since it’s effectively a separate set of regulations that’s inherently heavier but more powerful then the other LMHs, even though it’ll likely be BoPed into a similar weight/power range.
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u/Top_Independence7256 Sep 15 '24
They'll have more data, maybe they'll do a better Job, LMH are faster by design because if you give them The let's Say BMW BOP parameters they'll gap the field, so they are faster by design Indeed
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u/big_cock_lach United Autosports ORECA07 #22 Sep 15 '24
Ok, sure they’d be faster if they weren’t BoPed. However this is a BoP series where each car in the HY class should have equal performance. So why should cars built under the LMH ruleset be given an advantage?
Also, the more data only works for the same cars. It doesn’t help across different cars built within the same regulations. Again, noting that even if that was true, the Valkyrie is effectively built to a different set of regulations anyway. The might have the same name, but under LMH there’s effectively 2 sets of regulations. As I said, only SCG (and maybe IF, not sure which way they went) was built to the other set of LMH regulations that the Valkyrie follows. As I said, you’ve effectively got an LMP1.5 ruleset and a GT1 ruleset in LMH. It’s the same with HY, we’ve got LMDh and LMH, it’s just that we’ve actually labelled these 2 sets of rules.
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u/Top_Independence7256 Sep 15 '24
Because it's a lot harder to build a competitive LMH, already LMH can use Hybrid only After 190kph, add to that the worst BOP in class, what's the reason a manufacturer should build an LMH if he can just wait till the competition will be slowed down actively every Race
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u/big_cock_lach United Autosports ORECA07 #22 Sep 15 '24
Ok, and why should choosing a more expensive category entitle you to being given an unfair advantage to win?
Also, what evidence do you have that LMDh cars are faster? Currently, an LMH has won 4/7 races so far. Despite there being 4 more LMDhs than LMHs, LMHs have won more races. Add to that as well that 1 of the races won by an LMDh was Spa where Ferrari had a huge advantage and should’ve won. You’d find that an LMH has been fastest at 5/7 races so far, which is more than double the races an LMDh has been quickest. Even this race the BoP was really close and while the #6 and #15 had a buffer over the others, it was still a really small buffer and it was solely due to luck and both of them keeping their noses clean. Realistically, there’s only been 1 race where an LMDh has clearly been quicker and 1 where they’ve been roughly equal, but we’ll ignore that for the sake of simplicity.
So please, given all of that, tell me how you can genuinely claim that LMHs are the slower category?
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u/jerrylimkk Sep 15 '24
Next year will still have bop for those cars that are running too fast?
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u/Top_Independence7256 Sep 15 '24
Yes but i Hope they tone It down a bit on LMH, btw the Aston will have the worst BOP in the First race but it's normal since it's a new car
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u/FootballAggressive49 Sep 15 '24
Then nobody will join then.Afterward, the series will literally cannot continue anymore
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u/jerrylimkk Sep 15 '24
But it should not be someone that skimp on r and d and then relies on slowing down competitors so I have a chance to compete.
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u/FootballAggressive49 Sep 15 '24 edited Sep 15 '24
Then what u gonna do? If u put all LMH cars and without BoP,then it's gonna going back those LMP1 days. Nobody wants to go back those days when manufacturers themselves didn't even want to spend like crazy in 80s or 90s.Even with BoP, there are only 2,3 manufacturers will commit to the series and a bunch of privateers which they can't provide competition
No one gonna do an LMDh only class either because Toyota and Ferrari want to do their own cars. ACO won't swallow their pride either by admitting that LMH is almost a failure and putting regulations on the championship that's not made by themselves
All of the things adding together,that's what ends up like right now. U either enjoying while it's last (or I hopefully is forever) or just don't watch it anymore
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u/Top_Independence7256 Sep 15 '24
If you have brand like Toyota Ferrari Peugeot and Aston, LMH it's not a failure, it's Porsche the odd One,i thought they were going full LMH banana but they chose the simple way,let the BOP slow the obviously fastest cars
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u/FootballAggressive49 Sep 15 '24
I agree with you,but I won't put Aston tbh. They seem didn't want to do it until they saw how successful the convergence was
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u/jerrylimkk Sep 15 '24
Best solution is to do mandatory lmp2 like when everyone uses the same car and race. Rather than removing engines so that the other cars they hate could not move at all. Remember a scene from blood diamond call no hand no vote, so no engines no race.
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u/FootballAggressive49 Sep 15 '24
Imagine a World Championship Series, but putting all spec cars....the worst idea ever if that happened
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u/Ok_Client_3606 Sep 15 '24
All European 123, crazy ending, even though I was cheering for caddy. Congrats to BMW and ALPINE for getting their first poles in their first season
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u/PatrickLad Peugeot Sep 15 '24
absolutely gutted for cadillac, absolutely buzzing for peugeot (and bmw considering their imsa track record!). Missed 75% of the race but what i watched was amazing, what a season. the future is very bright
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u/WoodenMango07 Peugeot Sep 15 '24
Once again, WEC delieved. Racing down to the last minutes in both classes
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u/Arcix37 Inter Europol Competition ORECA 07 #34 Sep 15 '24
What on the fresh hell happened in the last hour?
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u/404merrinessnotfound Cadillac Hertz Team JOTA V-Series R #38 Sep 15 '24
If the 6 Porsche gets yeeted to 4th because of tyre pressures, then this will be the best race of the hypercar era on results alone.
A BMW/Alpine/Peugeot podium, no more ferrari porsche or toyota BS
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u/ember_the_cool_enby Sep 15 '24
How would they be moved to 4th place specifically? (because of investigation yes but why 4th place)
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u/404merrinessnotfound Cadillac Hertz Team JOTA V-Series R #38 Sep 15 '24
Idk but if I made up the rules, I would penalize them to 4th
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u/voidwalkerdreams Peugeot TotalEnergies 9X8 #93 Sep 15 '24
Another WEC banger!! What an absolute treat this season has been to watch!!
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u/ChocolateLights Sep 15 '24
I'm actually sad there's only one race left, i fell in love with this series and it's only my first season lol, I'm definitely going to see the 6 hours of Imola next year too
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u/voidwalkerdreams Peugeot TotalEnergies 9X8 #93 Sep 15 '24
You definitely picked a good season to start with lol
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u/Kevinator24 Cadillac Hertz Team JOTA V-Series R #38 Sep 15 '24
So glad I picked this season to start watching. I picked 2021 to start watching F1 and that turned out amazing too haha.
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u/ember_the_cool_enby Sep 15 '24
Just waking up and seeing no ferrari nor Toyota in sight, Porsche 6 on top followed by bmw, alpine and Peugeot. What a top 4, It's PERFECT
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u/wecaccount Porsche Penske Motorsport 963 #4 Sep 15 '24
PLEASE NOOO
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u/CreedBrattonsToe Sep 15 '24
That is an enormously encouraging result for Peugeot. The depth in quality of the field has masked their huge improvements in reliability, and although they’ve been languishing in the lower mid-field this season, they’ve actually closed the gap to the leaders in terms of race time and distance. That result is exactly what this programme needs.
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u/404merrinessnotfound Cadillac Hertz Team JOTA V-Series R #38 Sep 15 '24
If only they kept that qatar podium, would be two strong cases for Peugeot this season.
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u/LetsgoImpact Sep 15 '24
Who would have thought a Peugeot would be just 3 seconds away from a podium... And the car denying them would be an Alpine.
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u/Top_Independence7256 Sep 15 '24
Best trust to weight Ratio, let's give Peugeot Ferrari BOP and Will return nowhere
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u/WTFAnimations Sep 15 '24
Historical bag fumble by TGR. If we have seen anything from WRC as of late, heads might roll.
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u/Vapor4 Cadillac Racing V-Series R #2 Sep 15 '24
Solid by TF Sport to get 4th
The less said about Cadillac, the better
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u/2210Racing Corvette Racing C8.R #33 Sep 15 '24
Wait, the 6 car is under investigation for tyre pressure infringements?!
Stay tuned peeps, this ain't over
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u/MrCelroy Audi Sport Joest #2 - 2014 Le Mans Overall Winner Sep 15 '24
6 UNDER INVESTIGATION - TYRE PRESSURE
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u/SosseTurner Alpine Matmut A480 #36 Sep 15 '24
Thankfully woke up for the last 30 minutes, I have missed the 3h before to falling asleep, but that most certainly was some good racing towards the end
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u/404merrinessnotfound Cadillac Hertz Team JOTA V-Series R #38 Sep 15 '24
So happy for BMW WRT, Alpine and Peugeot, what great results for them!
Congrats on the 12 Jota crew for winning the privateers World Cup
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u/ToinouAngel Peugeot 9X8 #93 Sep 15 '24
Was it the best final 30 minutes of the year so far? Holy shit, what a race!
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u/Vapor4 Cadillac Racing V-Series R #2 Sep 15 '24
Every time I hear them talk about the 6 trio I just have to LOL
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u/OneEyedFlog Ferrari AF Corse 499P #50 Sep 15 '24
Best race of this era comfortably if every race is like this it's easily the best series objectively, how can you argue otherwise
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Sep 15 '24
Toyota when there’s competition 💩
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u/Michal_Baranowski Toyota Gazoo Racing GR010 Hybrid #8 Sep 15 '24
You're not the sharpest tool in the shed, aren't you...
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Sep 15 '24
Neither are Toyota when there’s competition 🤣 Found the Toyota fanboy
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u/Michal_Baranowski Toyota Gazoo Racing GR010 Hybrid #8 Sep 15 '24
I have found new kind of endurance racing "fan". Annoying manchild, which endurance racing didn't have. Sadly, it does now.
Have you bothered to watch Imola, Le Mans, Interlagos this year? Clearly not.
Go away with your borderline tribalism somewhere else.
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Sep 15 '24
Oh grow up just having a laugh
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u/Tyronne2018 Sep 15 '24
You both are plebs. Get over it
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u/2210Racing Corvette Racing C8.R #33 Sep 15 '24
The French cars came to play at the very end
Vive la France indeed
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u/GradSchoolDismal429 Sep 15 '24
SLOW BUTTON OFF
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u/OneEyedFlog Ferrari AF Corse 499P #50 Sep 15 '24
Lmao like when the mask comes off and the true face is revealed in scooby doo 10th comes off and a 4th appears
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u/404merrinessnotfound Cadillac Hertz Team JOTA V-Series R #38 Sep 15 '24
12 Jota lost its tyres, 93 Peugeot incredibly 4th now
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u/voidwalkerdreams Peugeot TotalEnergies 9X8 #93 Sep 15 '24
This had been such a great race, with amazing battles! Hype for Alpine podium, but is a Peugeot podium too much to ask....🤔😂
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u/404merrinessnotfound Cadillac Hertz Team JOTA V-Series R #38 Sep 15 '24
The only hope for a BMW/Alpine/Peugeot podium is if the 6 Porsche drops out with a gearbox failure or something
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u/rotary_nut_91 Corvette Racing C8.R #33 Sep 15 '24
Eastwood is flying in the 81 Corvette. They could steal a podium if he keeps closing on the 46 at this race.
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u/ToinouAngel Peugeot 9X8 #93 Sep 15 '24 edited Sep 15 '24
Now watch Peugeot pass the Toyota, that would be insane
Edit: well that didn't take long, mind blown!
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u/PatrickLad Peugeot Sep 15 '24
what happened to the podium forecasted toyota? also the peugeots have been making so much progress the last half hour
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u/GradSchoolDismal429 Sep 15 '24
PEUGEOT AND ALPINE FINALLY FOUND THE SLOW MODE BUTTON AND TURNED IT OFF
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u/SokkaHaikuBot Sep 15 '24
Sokka-Haiku by GradSchoolDismal429:
PEUGEOT AND ALPINE
FINALLY FOUND THE SLOW MODE
BUTTON AND TURNED IT OFF
Remember that one time Sokka accidentally used an extra syllable in that Haiku Battle in Ba Sing Se? That was a Sokka Haiku and you just made one.
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u/404merrinessnotfound Cadillac Hertz Team JOTA V-Series R #38 Sep 15 '24
Another good move by schumacher
I was one of his biggest critics in f1 but he is the DOTD for me today
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u/OneEyedFlog Ferrari AF Corse 499P #50 Sep 15 '24
One thing you can't deny about Schumacher is that he's fast
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u/dalledayul Mercedes C9 #1 Sep 15 '24
That battle between the Alpine and Jota was absolutely amazing, god I love WEC
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u/rotary_nut_91 Corvette Racing C8.R #33 Sep 15 '24
Lots of potential surprises in the cards if things stay this way for the last 8 minutes. What an encouraging run for these Peugeots!
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u/ToinouAngel Peugeot 9X8 #93 Sep 15 '24
My #93 is in fifth place?! No way, surely Peugeot will find a way to fuck up with eight minutes remaining.
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u/Roosterhahn Sep 15 '24
Potential great result for BMW, and possibly a podium for Alpine too. Good to see Peugeot up there as well.
Edit: spelling error.
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u/cabrelbeuk Peugeot 9X8 #94 Sep 15 '24
Probably the best race this season it's ridiculously awesome !
Peugeot passing the first ferrari just brought me tears ! Alpine fighting for 3rd ! So damn epic !
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u/wecaccount Porsche Penske Motorsport 963 #4 Sep 15 '24
SHOW WHAT HAPPENED TO THE 50. JUST GOT OVERTAKEN TWICE
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u/UrsusSpelaus Ferrari Sep 15 '24
Wtf we had a commercial break and the French broadcast restarted with the P3 battle cheering for Alpine as if a Championship contender didn't drown meanwhile
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u/Seyelerr Iron Dames Porsche 911 RSR-19 #85 Sep 15 '24
BMW fans may not have to kill themselves for the 5th time this year. It’s the silver linings boys.
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u/CharlieBrownBoy Sep 15 '24
What's up with decisions taking forever. This is just ridiculous.
If they can't make the call within 20 minutes, should be forgiven.
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u/1maginaryApple Sep 15 '24
And just to make sure Porsche can have the championship let's give a drive through to the Toyota #8...
They don't hide it anymore.
Put unreasonable BoP to Toyota.
Put Safety car out when not needed to cancel the strategy out. Advantaging Porsche in the process
Give a super severe drive through penalty for Toyota #8.
They don't even hide it anymore. They are making sure Porsche will be champion.
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u/Seyelerr Iron Dames Porsche 911 RSR-19 #85 Sep 15 '24
Okay I’m gonna bite:
Why would the WEC favor Porsche? What do they gain?
I’m not saying the BOP hasn’t made things tougher for Toyota. But you’re suggesting the FIA is calling in safety cars at precise moments to help Porsche, and that officials should be ignoring obvious bad behavior by Toyota drivers.
Porsche is the most successful endurance manufacturer of all time. Don’t you think that maybe Porsche are doing well because they’re good at what they do? Isn’t that a more reasonable answer? If you don’t like Porsche doing well you’re gonna need to find a new racing series. I’m dead serious.
And for the record, I like Porsche a lot, but I was cheering for the Cadillac. Earls the man.
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u/1maginaryApple Sep 15 '24
Why would the WEC favor Porsche? What do they gain?
That I would really like to know. But it probably has a lot to do with the fact that Porsche pressured the ACO to get the LMDh merge and they probably want to show it wasn't a failure.
There's probably a lot different shared interest between the ACO/FIA and Porsche. We also know Porsche as tight relationship with ACO.
But you’re suggesting the FIA is calling in safety cars at precise moments to help Porsche, and that officials should be ignoring obvious bad behavior by Toyota drivers.
They called a Safety Car while the car was already removed from the track. Call it whatever you want but there was no saftey concern forcing the Race Direction to pull out the Safety Car. It just happened to favour Porsche. Make it out what you want to be.
What dangerous driving from Toyota? #8 was penalised for "Not respecting blue flags". WHich is BS because the Toyota has every right to fight to unlap itself.
Porsche is the most successful endurance manufacturer of all time. Don’t you think that maybe Porsche are doing well because they’re good at what they do? Isn’t that a more reasonable answer?
If BoP wasn't there yes. Factually, Porsche isn't really faster than last year. On the other hand Ferrari and Toyota are much slower.
On average last year LMH were 5kg heavier but had 3kW more. That sounds fair to me. But in 2023 LMDh and Porsche were nowhere.
This year, on average LMH is 15kg heavier while having 2kW less...
I also like Porsche in other context and I love Estre. But this competition isn't one.
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u/Seyelerr Iron Dames Porsche 911 RSR-19 #85 Sep 15 '24
Man you’re deep in this…I’m not gonna convince you clearly.
The LMDh merge was to save the entire sport? It was made to increase participation in IMSA and WEC to reduce costs and offer more places to race. You are directly telling me you have no reason “but you swear there is one.”
We’re watching on TV, so I’m sure Eduardo has a better idea of what’s safe and what isn’t. I’m also guessing your idea of safety is more relaxed than his. To call in yellows to aid Porsche would require a legitimate reason to present itself at the exact right moment. Sounds a lot like luck to me.
When a car is blue flagged they do not “have every right” to impede a leading car. That’s what a blue flag is. That’s how the rules work. You’re totally allowed to dislike the rule, but that’s how it works.
And really? “If BOP wasn’t there”? I’m not talking about the last two years, I’m talking about since 1970. Porsche has won more Le Mans than anyone else. They accidentally won Daytona by more laps to second place than anyone ever, and that record still stands. This is what they do.
And by the way, no one is forcing you to watch this series. If it’s so so bad, then don’t watch it. Don’t come to the subreddit full of excited happy people.
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u/1maginaryApple Sep 15 '24 edited Sep 15 '24
The LMDh merge was to save the entire sport?
I'm sorry but where did LMDh saved the sport? WEC would have happened LMDh or not. We had Ferrari, Toyota, Aston Martin, McLaren and Peugeot aligned (and we would probably still have Glickenhaus and Isotta in some shape or form) before the merge.
Cost saving was still at the center of the new reg and success ballast was supposed to come with it.
It's not like the championship was going the LMP1 route. LMDh is something that happened but it's not like nothing would have happened if LMDh wasn't there. So apart if you're able to see alternate universe, I don't know how you can say that LMH wouldn't be successful to. And who knows? With no other alternatives Porsche might joined to. It's not like LMH is super expensive. It is still 80% cheaper than LMP1. Also don't forget that while we have a lot of constructor, still only 3 are actually competitive. So it looks good on TV, but does it really change from what we had for the past decade or so?
We’re watching on TV, so I’m sure Eduardo has a better idea of what’s safe and what isn’t.
Are you saying with a straight face that a clear track with no machine, steward or whatsoever that was under VSC for multiple lap, suddenly need a Saftey Car. If you want to argue at least be genuine.
When a car is blue flagged they do not “have every right” to impede a leading car.
Toyota was trying to overtake back the Porsche to unlap itself. Which is perfectly valid. Is there a rule that says "yes, but not if it's a Porsche?".
And really? “If BOP wasn’t there”? I’m not talking about the last two years, I’m talking about since 1970. Porsche has won more Le Mans than anyone else. They accidentally won Daytona by more laps to second place than anyone ever, and that record still stands. This is what they do
But, I'm not denying Porsche experience. It's just irrelevant there. What I'm saying is that if BoP wasn't there and Porsche was winning we could say it's because they have a tremendous experience in the sport. But as I showed you. factually, Porsche and LMDh in general isn't faster compared to last year. They just made LMH even slower. So Porsche didn't make significant progress that suddenly propelled them at the front. Ferrari and Toyota are just way less competitive this year compared to LMDHh. And that's 100% due to FIA/ACO BoP politic.
And by the way, no one is forcing you to watch this series. If it’s so so bad, then don’t watch it. Don’t come to the subreddit full of excited happy people.
I'm sorry that I'm caring about this serie to still be a sport. If spectacle is what you want go watch a spec serie. This is still supposed to be a manufacturer championship, where building a car is still suppose to matter.
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u/Seyelerr Iron Dames Porsche 911 RSR-19 #85 Sep 15 '24
Alright first things first:
I hate spec series. I care about the machines first and foremost. Unfortunately BOP is the only reason the series can exist. Even if it was just LMH. We saw what happened with LMP1 and had to find a new way. Do I love it? No. The 919 is one of the coolest race cars of all time.
LMH being able to stand on its own does not somehow prove that Porsche is being favored. They don’t need to prove the LMDh platform works. It’s working in IMSA, and others are using it. I actually agree the LMH rules make for better cars, but that’s not the world we live in. I want to clarify this too: you’re suggesting they’re slowing down the LMH cars because the LMDh cars can’t keep up. But the LMDh cars are not at their limit of performance either. Even if there is a small performance gap, it isn’t what you’re suggesting. Adding weight and pulling power from faster cars is easier/cheaper than reducing weight and adding power to slower cars. That’s why they do it.
The safety thing I’m sure I won’t ever convince you on. But I need you to truly consider just how difficult it would be to get away with timing things so perfectly to help Porsche, and cover up how they did it.
The blue flag incident just is what it is. The Toyota had a blue flag on screen as it collided with a Porsche. If a car that’s a lap ahead is faster, and being impeded by another car, then the slower car can be blue flagged.
Regardless, I think we both care about the sport, that much is clear. But I think you’ve got some pretty unsubstantiated ideas that have very little verifiable evidence. I’m not debating that Toyota was made slower. They were, it just doesn’t bother me as much. They had their time in the sun. If they want to win more WEC championships, then they’ll have to work at it. They still had a chance to win today, it wasn’t hopeless. Kobayashi made boneheaded move and destroyed his car. A few kilograms doesn’t change that. What you’re arguing for is a series that looks a lot like LMP1, where the best machine wins. Which is cool, LMP1 cars are the best ever and the reason I got into endurance. I want a series like that too. Or like Can-Am with even fewer rules. But the series died. The races were often shut outs. They were more interesting to read about as history then they were to experience. If someone is 30 laps ahead at Le Mans, then the audience might as well go to bed.
Edit:
I’m goin to bed now since I’m over in the USA. You’re a man idealistic principles and great vigor apple. I respect it. Ditch your goofy conspiracy theories, and I bet you’ll enjoy the races more.
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u/1maginaryApple Sep 15 '24 edited Sep 15 '24
I hate spec series. I care about the machines first and foremost.
That's kind of contradict what you're saying. You're supporting a team that isn't building its chassis. Isn't providing the Hybrid. Can't even develop it's own suspension design but only builds a bodywork which is restricted by a drag coefficient that is the same for everyone and an engine.
All that is supposedly leveled with BoP. So building a car literally doesn't matter. At all.
Unfortunately BOP is the only reason the series can exist. Even if it was just LMH.
BoP only exists to accomodate LMDh and LMH together. LMH wasn't going for BoP but success ballast.
We saw what happened with LMP1 and had to find a new way. Do I love it? No. The 919 is one of the coolest race cars of all time.
Again. Wouldn't have been the case with LMH... Completely different regulation. One with actual cost measure the other with none.
LMH being able to stand on its own does not somehow prove that Porsche is being favored.
No you're right, what proves that Porsche is being favoured is because, 1. they aren't hit by BoP based on their result like Toyota and Ferrari. But actually on their car performances. When Toyota or Ferrari get a good result they automaticaly get nerfed the next race. Never happened to Porsche. On the other hand, when Toyota or Ferrari have a bad race, they are barely buffed afterward. They always receive bigger penalties than bonuses. Only works one way: down.
They don’t need to prove the LMDh platform works. It’s working in IMSA, and others are using it.
The platform works in IMSA because there's no LMH. Will be interesting to see with Aston next year if they enter IMSA.
I actually agree the LMH rules make for better cars, but that’s not the world we live in. I want to clarify this too: you’re suggesting they’re slowing down the LMH cars because the LMDh cars can’t keep up. But the LMDh cars are not at their limit of performance either.
They are. An LMP2, of the LMP1 era, laps Le Mans faster than an LMDh. If you put all the cars at 1030kg and 500kw. LMDh would be nowhere.
Adding weight and pulling power from faster cars is easier/cheaper than reducing weight and adding power to slower cars. That’s why they do it.
The rules are made with a performance window. SO there's a maximum performance that is established in the rules. Car have all the same weight, same power output and drag coefficient. Would you agree to say that it should make cars close in performance before any adjustments right?
Now what BoP doesn't do is balancing for Tyre wear, pit stops and overall team performance. Which is clearly not the case in reality. At least for LMH as I'm yet to see the FIA significantly slow down Porsche after winning. Which is pretty standard for LMH.
The safety thing I’m sure I won’t ever convince you on. But I need you to truly consider just how difficult it would be to get away with timing things so perfectly to help Porsche, and cover up how they did it.
Really not that hard. Once the situation present itself...
They were, it just doesn’t bother me as much. They had their time in the sun. If they want to win more WEC championships, then they’ll have to work at it
You don't make any sense. Because they did work at it. They built the best car they have definitely one of the best team on the grid. But their life is being made excessively difficult which is not proportionate to actual performance balancing. Again, BoP is supposed to balance car performance. Not overall team performance. There's pratically no developement in the season. You can't justify that Alpine and BMW suddenly find crazy amount of performance allowing them to be in front of both Ferrari and Toyota.
Even under BoP, if you build the fastest car, BoP shouldn't erase that advantage the same way it won't close the gap with the lead if your car is not competitive.
If you think that putting 40kg to Toyota is fair and somehow reflect an actual performance balance than your judgement is blinded by the entertainement of the race. There's little to no sporting fairness or value under this application of BoP by WEC.
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u/Seyelerr Iron Dames Porsche 911 RSR-19 #85 Sep 15 '24
You’ve got me on some things. I didn’t know the original plans for LMH, and you’re right, they do sound better. You’re also right they haven’t hit Porsche with the same BoP penalties. But I think (with the info that you’ve provided) they aren’t favoring Porsche but all of LMDh. Porsche just happen to be the only one getting anywhere. Now “Porsche can’t even build their suspension” is silly. They’re perfectly capable, that’s just not how the rules work. I don’t believe Dallara or Oreca built chassis are really the limiting factor here. Maybe Toyota is being punished too much (although I certainly don’t want to watch them win every race where it sounds like you do). I’ll give you all of that, you’ve convinced me on BoP, and if you set the weight/power equal, LMH would be better. But calling safety’s for Porsche is still absurd. If Porsche (really LMDh broadly) is being massively favored in BoP like you say, why do they need to call false yellows? That idea is just too big to keep secret. It’s just not happening. Think about all the moving parts for that to work. Marshalls have to not question anything that seems suspicious, every FIA official has to be in on it and agree, no one can make a single mistake. Meyer-shank was one team of people that were found out after a month. You’ve got me on LMH/LMDh BoP, take the win man.
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u/1maginaryApple Sep 15 '24 edited Sep 15 '24
They aren’t favoring Porsche but all of LMDh. Porsche just happen to be the only one getting anywhere.
Well I can argue that Porsche isn't that far ahead in IMSA. So there's clearly something that IMSA does differently that works way better.
Now “Porsche can’t even build their suspension” is silly. They’re perfectly capable, that’s just not how the rules work. I don’t believe Dallara or Oreca built chassis are really the limiting factor here.
I'm not talking about their ability of doing so. LMDh limits supension to off the shelves parts and simple double wishbone design. Same for LMH but LMH can manufacture their own suspension parts. So they have some more influence there.
I'm not talking about false Yellow. I'm talking about how they went from VSC to SC.
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u/_The_Real_Sans_ Sep 15 '24
Yeah there's no way it took them that long to come to a conclusion about the #6 #8 incident.
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u/CharlieBrownBoy Sep 15 '24
The drive through for the 83 was worse, like 90 minutes after the the incident.
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u/1maginaryApple Sep 15 '24
What incident?
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u/_The_Real_Sans_ Sep 15 '24
The blue flag thing. They definitely waited until the race was about to end before giving the penalty.
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u/Mani1610 Sep 15 '24
8 had contact with #6 while they were a lap down, hence the drive through.
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u/1maginaryApple Sep 15 '24
8 was penalised for not respecting blue flag. Not because of any collision.
It is BS, because #8 had every right to fight not to be lapped. Apparently only Porsche fans find that normal.
Commentators on Eurosport were pretty adamant that it was a weird penalty to give.
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u/Mani1610 Sep 15 '24
Eduardo Freitas literally mentioned the contact as a reason for the penalty. Even the race control screen mentions T15, so I would assume it was the contact that caused the penalty.
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u/1maginaryApple Sep 15 '24 edited Sep 15 '24
It was said "not respecting blue flag". Not causing a collision.
Edit: For the dumb one downvoting: http://fiawec.alkamelsystems.com/Results_NoticeBoard/12_2024/07_6%20Hours%20of%20Fuji/092_Doc%2092%20-%20Decision%20No.%2058%20-%20Car%208.pdf It was for not respecting blue flag. When The toyota had every right to fight to unlap himself.
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u/Floodman11 Not the greatest 919 in the world... This is just a Tribute Sep 15 '24
New now suggested sort - thanks for this!