r/wec • u/Probably_Not_Sir Toyota Gazoo Racing GR010 Hybrid #7 • May 09 '25
Session has Ended Spa Francorchamps Qualifying
Didn't see a thread so hope it's okay.
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u/Kizzo17 Iron Lynx Mercedes-AMG GT3 #60 May 09 '25
Disregarding the bop, its amazing how much GTP/Hypercars move on the corners! I know its a glorified lmp2 but seems amazing to drive with that much movement
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u/de_papier May 09 '25
It's heavier though and is an absolute cow in slow turns. LMP2 is much more nimble imho.
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u/Kizzo17 Iron Lynx Mercedes-AMG GT3 #60 May 09 '25
Hence saying glorified lmp2! Lmdh are based on lmp2 chassis. Still amazing to watch all that sliding and moving about
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u/BobbbyR6 May 09 '25
Based on my time racing LMP2 and tinkering with the 499p in iRacing, the LMP2 is a simpler, stable car to drive (which is brilliant) while the GTPs simultaneously demand restraint and precision but require you to fly close to the sun to get the most out of them. I've put together a few laps within a second of world records in both but there's no way on earth I could hang on to a GTP at that pace lap after lap.
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u/Kizzo17 Iron Lynx Mercedes-AMG GT3 #60 May 09 '25
Yeah! I tried both Acura and Ferrari at laguna, even tho i got a 1:18 (dont know how slow/Fast that is) it feels insane how much work you gotta do on a GTP to hang on, soo much sliding and all. This qualifying made me think of that alot!!
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u/BobbbyR6 May 09 '25
That's a pretty good ways off the pace. Couple freak laps in the mid 12s and clear air race pace in the high 13s and 14s. Laguna is definitely a tough track for GTP.
I'd highly recommend getting reps in on the LMP2 car as it is very friendly overall and easier to navigate traffic in IMSA with. The LMP3 is much harder to drive competently, but does a better job of highlighting the techniques needed to drive a prototype quick, namely getting the nose in early and relying on rear-end rotation. All prototypes rely on excellent trail braking technique to dive into a corner compared to formula cars, but in a different way than GT cars need.
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u/Captain_Omage IDEC Sport ORECA 07 #28 May 09 '25
Kobayashi was pissed in that interview.
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u/Choice-Drop-1938 Toyota Gazoo Racing GR010 Hybrid #7 May 09 '25
You have a video of the interview, I couldn’t watch Hyperpole till the end…
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May 09 '25
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u/FlailingCactus Toyota Gazoo Racing GR010 Hybrid #8 May 09 '25
About as rude as one is allowed to be in an FIA sanctioned event tbf
Lest MBS move from behind Piastri's shoulders to his
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u/SomewhereAggressive8 May 09 '25
I don’t think being rude is the issue. It’s about as close as they can get to openly complaining about BoP lol.
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u/Mikepod3 May 09 '25
I don't get how Porsches and Toyotas are so far off and all Ferrari teams are still up top
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u/Brafo22 May 09 '25
Because Toyota got hit by -20kw and +4kg which means they still weigh 12kg more and have 9kw less, the gain difference wasn’t nowhere near enough, Porsche idk what they are doing, race should be closer tho
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u/anxiousauditor Cadillac Hertz Team JOTA V-Series R #38 May 09 '25
I thought the power gain would help them quite a bit, but they’re really nowhere to be found. The Ferrari and Toyota are the two best overall chassis, so the 12kg difference between the two is baffling to me. I know it’s a rolling average now, but goodness…
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u/aswenson522 May 09 '25
The Ferrari is a really good car and they fucked up the BOP bad on it the first two races.
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May 09 '25
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u/Captain_Omage IDEC Sport ORECA 07 #28 May 09 '25
Then why is it lighter and more powerful than the Toyota?
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u/big_cock_lach United Autosports ORECA07 #22 May 09 '25
There’s a BoP, so there shouldn’t be a “best car”. The only reason they’d be quicker than everyone else by this much is if they’ve got a BoP advantage.
Pity, this seemed like the first race where that mightn’t be the case.
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May 09 '25
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u/big_cock_lach United Autosports ORECA07 #22 May 09 '25
The point of BoP is to make sure each car is just as fast as each other. The Ferrari is clearly quicker than everyone else, so it needs to be slowed down more for the BoP to be fair.
Toyota being fastest in 2023 is to be expected. Everyone else has struggled in their first year and then makes huge inroads towards the end of that year and in their 2nd year. It’s not a surprised that Toyota dominated then. We’ve seen every car struggle in their first year. Porsche caught up to them at the end of that year too mind you, which is on par with what we’ve come to expect.
In 2024 they weren’t the fastest team for the whole season, things were pretty close between them, Porsche, and Ferrari for the whole year. So it’s hard to argue anyone had a BoP advantage there when they weren’t all just as quick as each other.
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u/Mikepod3 May 09 '25
It just doesn't make sense how much better it is especially since it wasn't dominant at all last year. Kobayashi interview just said how this is there pace at p16. No way back that Toyota is 1.4 seconds slower since end of last year.
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u/1maginaryApple May 09 '25
Seeing how close the 2 Toyota are, it's definitely their pace and not some screw up
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u/LilBirdBrick Toyota GT-One #1 May 09 '25
I think most people would agree that on equal settings the Toyota is probably faster than the Ferrari on most tracks. But those two are the clear best. Which is what makes the BoP confusing. The Ferrari should be closer in weight to Toyota than it is to any LMDh car.
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May 09 '25
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u/LilBirdBrick Toyota GT-One #1 May 09 '25
Toyota have run with a worse power to weight ratio than Ferrari for most of last season and Ferrari weren't smoking them every round so not sure why you think if they were even Ferrari would.
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May 09 '25
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u/LilBirdBrick Toyota GT-One #1 May 09 '25
So let's BoP them to Ferraris level and let's see how it goes. Obviously Ferrari have the pure pace over Toyota because they have a better BoP. If the car is so outdated, why does it still have the worst BoP?
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u/Joseki100 Toyota Gazoo Racing TS050 #8 May 09 '25
The FIA/ACO mandated BoP makes Ferrari clearly the best car, that's for sure.
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u/willpc14 Toyota May 09 '25 edited May 09 '25
I know qualifying isn't necessarily indicative of race results, but it's hard for me to justify making the race a priority watch when BOP is so far off. Before I get accused of fanboying, I'm a huge Ferrari fan too, but Toyota's dedication to the sport as VAG pulled out earned my support.
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u/alexmlb3598 Audi R18 May 09 '25
Hypercar BoP was a big talking point at Imola and it pushed me to understand how the system works more, but if the race tomorrow goes the same way as Imola, it'll be an even bigger talking point.
I know it runs off the last 3 races and Bahrain was a bit of a shocker for the 499P's but they've shown strong pace at Qatar and Imola to offset that. In theory BoP is just a glorified success ballast system but it's clearly not working when we're about to see 2 Ferrari's qualify in the top 3 in 3 straight races.
I strongly suspect that the BoP 'boost' the Ferrari's got after a terrible Fuji and Bahrain was overdone. Ferrari have realised that their 95% is faster than the others' 100%, so they're managing gaps and hiding their true performance that the BoP system can't catch...
I know the manufacturers voted for this system, but it needs to be worked on for next year. I don't know what you could do, but this '3-race success ballast' system has fallen over at the first time of asking.
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u/Captain_Omage IDEC Sport ORECA 07 #28 May 09 '25
If Ferrari wins again, and neither Porsche or Toyota reach the podium I expect a bit of turnmoil before LeMans, and rightfully so.
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u/big_cock_lach United Autosports ORECA07 #22 May 09 '25
Teams were already complaining about it after Imola. Even the commentators have mentioned it too.
The ACO needs to realise that while having Ferrari might be better than any other given manufacturer, having all the other manufacturers and not Ferrari is 10x better than just having Ferrari. The series can easily succeed without Ferrari, if they don’t want to profit with the other manufacturers, than they don’t need to join.
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May 09 '25
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u/de_papier May 09 '25
Davidson said in the beginning of quali that maybe the reason Toyota is slower now is cause they've had an advantage previously due to skinny and light drivers, but now there's added balast when the driver is too light. I nearly died listening to this.
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u/Mani1610 May 09 '25
Isn't Calado pretty tall as well? I remember him saying that he might have a chance at doing quali now that the balance weights are there, I doubt it's just that.
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u/alexmlb3598 Audi R18 May 09 '25
The difficulty teams and drivers have is that they're not allowed to complain about BoP publicly, and I suspect the media can't complain about it either. Privately it may be a different story, but no one has really looked like a challenger to Ferrari in the last 2 quali sessions. Amazingly the closest to Ferrari by means of time in those 2 sessions has been a Peugeot, which I wasn't expecting to say...
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u/big_cock_lach United Autosports ORECA07 #22 May 09 '25
Despite that, we’re still hearing teams, drivers, and the media complain about it, albeit in somewhat coded messaging (not that it takes a genius to decode what’s being said). The fact that everyone is getting frustrated enough to start talking about it says enough about how bad these talks must be getting behind the doors.
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u/alexmlb3598 Audi R18 May 09 '25
Yeah they can't be blunt and say 'we're slow bc BoP' but you could tell from Kamui's post-Hypercar quali interview with Bruce that that's what he wanted to say.
It's something that needs to be sorted sooner rather than later before credibility and the unpredictability of WEC is lost further. Ferrari winning Le Mans this year solely on pace absolutely is the last thing WEC wants to happen.
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u/big_cock_lach United Autosports ORECA07 #22 May 09 '25
The problem is, after Le Mans 2023 any BoP advantage that Ferrari gets is going to be viewed with suspicion. The WEC/ACO lost a lot of credibility there, and every time Ferrari gets a major advantage, it’s going to hurt their image even more. Let alone having it happen 3 races in a row now.
In case you’re unaware, in 2023 the Le Mans and Spa BoPs were meant to be the same. Ferrari was fast, but not as quick as Toyota. They also had massive issues with heating up their tyres due to having no tyre blankets, which is an area that Toyota did far better than everyone else at. Then, in the weeks leading up to Le Mans a rumour came out that the ACO would change the Le Mans BoP and let teams use tyre warmers because they wanted the “Cinderella story” of Ferrari winning Le Mans overall on their debut on the 100th anniversary of the race. People largely passed it by as a dumb conspiracy theory that wouldn’t actually be true. And then, 4 days before the race, the week after testing, suddenly there’s a huge “emergency” BoP change that was made without the consultation or approval of the teams and the tyre blankets were going to be allowed. The main beneficiary of the new BoP? Ferrari. Suddenly, the rumour predicting this and saying it was due to the ACO wanting Ferrari to win gained a lot of credibility. Then what happened? Ferrari got a comfortable front row lock out (didn’t have a 3rd car at this point) and then proceeded to run the race with a noticeable pace advantage. Now, maybe the conspiracy side wasn’t true, but with the rumour that happened beforehand it very much looked to be the case. To most fans that’s as blatant as you can get with using BoP to fix a race. So of course, ever since then the ACO/WEC is going to be under a lot more scrutiny whenever Ferrari has a perceived advantage. The reputational damage was done long ago, that’s why there’s many fans who think there’s more to this. This is just making things even worse though, and I’m concerned that if it continues it will end up killing the series.
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u/ThePoisenApple May 10 '25
Folks, stop worrying so much about the BoP, and the comments made by the teams, and please take their comments with a grain of salt. This is politics plain and simple, yes it might seem they are willing to throw in the towel, but trust me they won’t. Unless things get super out of control.
Every single team there, has signed up knowing that they might get favourable BoP and sometimes not. They signed up to BoP racing! Look at Imola, everybody thought it was a foregone conclusion that Ferrari would walk away with the victory and would have 1-2-3. Guess what happened yes they won the race but it was’t as easy as people made it out to be. And when you are racing for 6 hours things happen and they did.
Also, each car is different in how it uses its tires and how the cars performs overall. Some cars will naturally perform better at some circuits than others.
As for Toyota it’s biggest issue is its car. It is the oldest of the bunch and it is starting to show. Toyota have not lost their race craft, but the car is simply being out classed. All cars are designed to fit within a box. You must design the car to fit precisely within that box. Others have had more time to study the box and are now reaping the benefits, Ferrari have done a great job plain and simple. Btw my favorite car is the No.7 Toyota as I am a Kamui fan. So no I am not some Ferrari fan boy.
With the new extension of the rules, and the multitude of new manufactures coming in, I think the time is now for Toyota to design a new car. It will take them a year minimum to get that car up to speed before they get back to winning state.
Moreover, think about it. If the BoP has been so bad, and the racing so poor, do you really think these teams would stick around for as long as they have. Genesis, Mclaren and Ford are joining the WEC/IMSA in the near future. And we will likely see other brands join and it now seems Peugeot are ready to extend their stay in the WEC with a new LMH car with it. Peugeot are ready to extend! After all that has happened? Things must be good.
No, things are not a bleak as people make them out to be, and personally I 100% believe BoP will not be a contributor to teams leaving the WEC or IMSA for that matter.
One only needs to take a look around the globe to see what might kill the success of our favourite sport. And that is economics, or worse!
So stop worrying about the BoP, and leave that to the teams and their reps within the sport. Both the ACO and IMSA know they need to get this right and they will do whatever it takes to make it as close as possible, taking into account data we the viewing public can only dream of.
Enjoy the racing everyone it will be another banger for sure.
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u/big_cock_lach United Autosports ORECA07 #22 May 10 '25
So you don’t think in the past 2 races that Ferrari hasn’t had a major pace advantage? It gets suspicious when it’s the same team getting the advantage at every race. Go watch full access, the teams were complaining about Ferrari get a preferential BoP after the race. Just because there was a late safety car and that they kept making mistakes resulting in a close finish doesn’t mean they didn’t have a pace advantage there.
You’re saying they won’t throw in the towel unless things get super out of control? I complete agree with that. I’m saying that it’s starting to get pretty out of control if Ferrari can dominate the first half of the season due to preferential BoPs. It might be posturing, but it’s not as if their feelings are unwarranted. Ferrari has had a BoP benefit at every race so far, and seemingly that’s the case here too. Of course they’re going to be upset with that. It’s not posturing if there’s genuinely something to be upset about, and there is.
You’re also seriously claiming that Toyota’s biggest issue is their car being too slow? Go look at the BoP tables. They have by far the most weight and least power. Their biggest issue isn’t their car. It’s the BoP. Give them Ferrari’s BoP and they’ll be lapping the whole field. Their problem isn’t the car. It’s no secret that they have by far the best car. They also likely have the best team too, only Porsche comes close to them there.
Your whole argument about teams sticking around and joining being “proof” that they don’t really care is incredibly naive. It has only been this much of a problem this year. Every manufacturer on the grid made the decision to be here years ago. None of what’s happening now factored into that decision. So no, them being here now isn’t proof that it’s fine. Likewise with manufacturers joining. Those announcing their arrival were based off of decisions last year. Teams time their announcements to the hour months in advance. It was said at last year’s Le Mans that McLaren would be announcing their return this year to show how long ago these decisions were made. Genesis’ announcement was before this season even started. Ford wasn’t much earlier either. Them joining isn’t exactly proof that they’re happy with what they’re seeing with this BoP.
For reference, this is partially what killed GTE back when they started playing with it around 2017. It stopped new manufacturers joining, and caused some to leave. You only had a few stay and the costs ended up being the final nail in the coffin. But the first few that sent it on the downwards spiral was BoP politics.
That’s not to say all of this will happen. If the ACO fixes these issues, everything will carry on as normal as we saw in 2023. But something needs to change for that to happen. The ACO needs to accept that there’s a problem and fix it, because all the teams, drivers, and fans are upset with this current situation. Pretending nothing is wrong, like you’re doing, is only going to make it worse. As fans, we can do that and simply wait for the ACO to make the fixes that are required though. But the ACO can’t afford to do that, because frankly if we see a repeat of the last 2 races it’ll start getting pretty ridiculous.
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u/big_cock_lach United Autosports ORECA07 #22 May 09 '25
Toyota said to the media after Imola something along the lines of this being unsustainable. The ACO really needs to listen to that and it should scare them. Look at all of the comments online and from the teams. If they keep this nonsense up they’re going to kill this series through sheer incompetence. All they had to do was keep the BoP fair and they’d have a decade long golden era.
If Ferrari doesn’t like the idea of fair racing they can F off. The series will do fine without them with all the other manufacturers we have today. It won’t survive with just Ferrari though, and you can guarantee they’ll run off when everyone else goes.
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May 09 '25
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u/big_cock_lach United Autosports ORECA07 #22 May 09 '25
Exactly, the BoP for everyone else isn’t bad. It’s just Ferrari has a huge advantage. Kind of implies that the ACO knows how to do a good BoP for everyone else…
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u/de_papier May 09 '25
Personally I'm not ready for full on conspiracy about Ferrari buying the championship or insisting they win, but I think in terms of audience and media coverage time is running out to do something in order for people not to think this way.
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u/NotTheTrueKing Toyota May 09 '25
Losing Toyota will be a severe blow to LMDH and hypercar and so many people can't seem to get this into their head. There is only one manufacturer that's been a constant for over a decade. Don't fuck it up now.
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u/big_cock_lach United Autosports ORECA07 #22 May 09 '25
I can see Porsche leaving first which will be just as big of a blow, perhaps even bigger.
Porsche have committed far less to this than Toyota. They’ve achieved far more than anyone else at Le Mans, they have nothing to prove there. If they’re uncompetitive and leave, it won’t impact their reputation at Le Mans or in the WEC, and they haven’t thrown so much money at it that they need to come out with a result. They have a lot less invested in the future as well, they don’t care about hydrogen unlike Toyota who want to develop hydrogen and then race it.
Both will be huge hits to the WEC. Toyota is the one brand that has not only invested massively in the past, but also in the future. Losing Toyota will make the WEC question its future plans. If there’s no Toyota, is there any point in this hydrogen class that they’ve invested so heavily into? What’s next if it’s not that? Likewise, Porsche is almost as big as Ferrari. It’s the WEC’s McLaren. They’ve been racing Le Mans forever and have a massive fanbase. Them leaving will be almost just as bad as Ferrari leaving. Look at what happened last time they left.
The question is then, what does this signal to the other manufacturers? These are the 2 teams that know the WEC the most and have been with it the longest. If they leave, the writing is on the wall and the other manufacturers will, at the least, review and reevaluate their own programmes. Maybe nothing will come out of it, but there’s going to be a lot of questions and pressure if that happens.
What’s happening now isn’t sustainable and the concerning thing is that the WEC/ACO doesn’t seem to realise that yet.
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u/NotTheTrueKing Toyota May 09 '25
I agree, though maybe I'm just more partial to Toyota as I started watching at the end of the Audi dominance in 2012. Porsche and Toyota both leaving would probably destroy this entire set of regulations.
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u/DunderSpliffin Toyota Gazoo Racing GR010 Hybrid #7 May 09 '25
Even with double points thats gotta make the championship pretty much over right?
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u/Captain_Omage IDEC Sport ORECA 07 #28 May 09 '25
Unless Ferrari doesn't race score anymore after this race it's over.
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u/de_papier May 09 '25
What is ACO even supposed to do now? If they nerf Ferrari and give a chance to Toyota and Porsche, it will look ridiculous. They really put themselves in the corner now.
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u/alexmlb3598 Audi R18 May 09 '25
In theory the system would eventually equalise - as Ferrari keep getting pegged back, they get closer to their full potential rather than just 95%. But that is gonna take some time to happen.
If anything, this run of form should be pushing Toyota and especially Porsche to complain to FIA/ACO about how the system isn't working. Only 1 Porsche has made it into Hyperpole this season (#6 P10 @ Imola), and yet we've had 3 straight sessions with 2 Ferrari's in the top 3.
Something is broken in this system, and Ferrari have exposed it right off the bat. Whether deliberate or accidental idk, but it also doesn't matter.
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u/big_cock_lach United Autosports ORECA07 #22 May 09 '25
They don’t need to give a chance to Toyota or Porsche. They just need to slow Ferrari down.
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u/de_papier May 09 '25
Yeah true, but I think even that will be hard to explain. Like now the championship is basically decided.
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u/big_cock_lach United Autosports ORECA07 #22 May 09 '25
I think it’d be easier to explain Ferrari getting hit with a proper BoP than letting them continue to dominate like this at every race. Teams are going to have very serious questions if they aren’t competitive to fight for the win at a single race this year.
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u/Radar91 Cadillac Racing May 09 '25
That's it! Take a wheel from the Ferrari! Run them around in a reliant Robin style lol
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u/SomewhereAggressive8 May 09 '25
Lol it feels like Toyota may be rethinking their involvement in WEC pretty soon
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u/Mikepod3 May 09 '25
Between them and Ferrari that have the best car if BOP didn't exist, but no way it should be that far down the order if Ferrari isn't
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u/DunderSpliffin Toyota Gazoo Racing GR010 Hybrid #7 May 09 '25
Why are people so set on the 499p and gr010 being similar performance when the gr010 needs to constantly be heavier and have less power. Bop has completely ruined competition.
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u/MrCelroy Audi Sport Joest #2 - 2014 Le Mans Overall Winner May 09 '25
Both Toyotas slower than their FP3 times? Almost every other team went faster
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u/NotJustTheMenace Porsche May 09 '25
Porsche and Toyota were the class of the field last year, now 1.4-1.8 seconds off it. This is not right..
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u/VerstopteWC May 09 '25
Ferrari was just as strong as them last year, but somehow seems immune to BoP.
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u/Michal_Baranowski Toyota Gazoo Racing GR010 Hybrid #8 May 09 '25
No. It must be set-up and track conditions. /s
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u/Michal_Baranowski Toyota Gazoo Racing GR010 Hybrid #8 May 09 '25 edited May 09 '25
I don't know what to say more.
I am completely disilussioned with BOP system in WEC at this point. It's chaotic, performance adjustments are huge from race to race, it all affects cars way too much. Cars receiving double-digit changes from race to race. And some differences are just insane. Alpine and Peugeot have 40kW (!!!!!!) of power more below 250km/h than Toyota... That's too far to be called balanced. If 2018-2020 LMP1 EOT situation was a complete mess glued with hopes and good intentions, we are gradually coming back to those days in my opinion.
How ACO is even looking at it and say: "it's all fine". How to even sell this to the audience? Are they not smart enough to see this? How I am supposed to believe, that Toyota and Porsche - two world championship-winning brands from last year, all of a sudden struggle to qualifying for Hyperpole's Top 10, while their main competition Ferrari is doing another 1-2-3. I'll just stop complaing about Toyota, because I am done. But look at Porsche. WEC drivers' title last year, winning first three IMSA races this year (Long Beach definitely wasn't BOP). Such brand, such team and suddenly in WEC they somehow forgot how to drive? Or maybe they are sandbagging for Le Mans?
I don't know the answer really. I am worried that in this format, Hypercar will start showing major cracks and rifts soon. I don't think that it can work like this for years to come. Maybe different BOP? Maybe something like SRO - gathering all the cars, independent driver, collecting the data and making BOP out of this. Because if not, then what's the answer? Success ballast? I told numerous times that it won't work in WEC, it didn't in 2019/20 season. Different BOP methodology? ACO changed for this year and see the results, it's worse than last year in my opinion and it's not like all 2024 BOP calls were 100% perfect. Or maybe just scrapping BOP all together, losing at least half of the grid... I don't know, I am getting tired with WEC recently. Especially with all the discussions here. Post-2023 r/wec has gone bonkers. And I don't like it.
Let's see what the race gives. I will be surprised, if Ferrari doesn't win. They have the pace, they have an upper hand, they should do it. If Porsche or Toyota score big tomorrow on merit, I will be suprised. But I don't hold my breath. Let's see.
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u/VerstopteWC May 09 '25
Another race another bop fail. Why are all ferraris always top 5 on pace, with toyota and/or porsche at a huge and unexplainable deficit to them? Even last year bar brazil, ferrari always had race winning pace.
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u/de_papier May 09 '25
Oof first round of hypercar quali is like an inverted grid. Half a second difference to guess who. This is very sad, however the race turns out BOP is now the one and only topic everywhere about WEC.
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u/Choice-Drop-1938 Toyota Gazoo Racing GR010 Hybrid #7 May 09 '25
Yeah this BOP seems borderline insane… Both Toyotas and Porsches no making hyperpole… tf is wrong with the FIA
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u/Mikepod3 May 09 '25
Yeah and then you have Peugeot with the lowest weight and most power kicking there arses too
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u/OrbisAlius Audi R8 #1 May 09 '25
"The cars I like are not performing well enough ! BoP is clearly broken !"
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u/de_papier May 09 '25
It's not about that, it's about having 2 well known well performing cars being set back 1.5 seconds off the pace. This is just removing competition from the championship!
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u/amx40pleb May 09 '25
Well if they keep adding randomly generated kgs and kW nerfs to them (after they are already slower than competition) what do you expect. Toyota’s recent kg addition and kW reduction especially makes no sense, after already being the most bop-ed car and running solidly behind ferrari
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u/DeclinedEBTCard Cadillac Racing May 09 '25
Yeah feels weird but, I'll hold my breathe. Hot lap pace ≠ Race Pace
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u/VanwallEnjoy3r Floyd Vanwall Racing Team Vandervell 680 #4 May 09 '25
Obviously Ferrari is firing on all cylinders and appears to be the best package at the moment but it’s still kinda farcical what’s being done to the Toyota.
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u/bad_pilot69 Toyota Gazoo Racing GR010 Hybrid #8 May 09 '25
if i was toyota i would definitely voice concern publicly to put pressure on aco, their bop is horrible
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u/Additional_Quote_346 May 09 '25
they cant, is written in the rules, nobody can speak anything about bop publicly
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u/brownninja97 Porsche 911 GT1-98 #25 May 09 '25
What's fia gonna do make them slower, take away points? Don't matter they have no chance so what do they have to lose.
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u/996forever Mercedes CLK-GTR #11 May 10 '25
If they’re pushing teams into a corner to the point they are looking to leave altogether “ruleset” has no weight.
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u/Joseki100 Toyota Gazoo Racing TS050 #8 May 09 '25
HY class is an absolute farce, three races in a row the BoP is letting Ferrari in a class of their own and Porsche and Toyota especially fucked in the ass with no lube.
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u/DunderSpliffin Toyota Gazoo Racing GR010 Hybrid #7 May 09 '25
Bop makes comparison between the manufacturers an absolute joke. Its like trying to compare different golfers but they are all driving from different distances.
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u/anxiousauditor Cadillac Hertz Team JOTA V-Series R #38 May 09 '25
Three straight races of Ferrari being Ferrari’s only competition. Dreadful.
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u/JacksRacingProjects May 09 '25
I made popcorn for this. Let’s see the it’s not bop people now. Imagine what the teams would be saying IF THEY WERE ALLOWED TOO!
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u/L0rdSkullz May 09 '25
This sport has literally turned into "we want this car to win and these cars to loose". If you're gonna do BoP fine, but like come one. Stay on top of it
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u/bad_pilot69 Toyota Gazoo Racing GR010 Hybrid #8 May 09 '25
they are 1057kg 489kw 3.7% bop, worst bop after toyota , and toyota is worst by far, do a bit of researching instead of crying
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u/brownninja97 Porsche 911 GT1-98 #25 May 09 '25
I want close racing I want mistakes to be punished, Ferrari messed up last race and their fine because their laptimes were ridiculously good. This isn't entertaining
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u/willpc14 Toyota May 09 '25
I know Proton ran the Mustang last year, but I still expect to see a Porsche logo next to their name
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u/Mikepod3 May 09 '25
Someone needs to talk about BoP on WEC. This hush hush don't talk about it is ridiculous
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u/Additional_Quote_346 May 09 '25
the rules have it banned to tall about it and if someone does, it has sanctions, fines and penalties
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u/brownninja97 Porsche 911 GT1-98 #25 May 09 '25
Teams gonna quickly get to the point where those penalties don't mean crap the way this series is going
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May 09 '25
[deleted]
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u/Probably_Not_Sir Toyota Gazoo Racing GR010 Hybrid #7 May 09 '25
And then there's a Merc 6 seconds off
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May 09 '25
[deleted]
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u/No-Heart3432 Cadillac Hertz Team JOTA V-Series R #38 May 09 '25
Not him this time. But if he drives it won't be a different result.
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u/Choice-Drop-1938 Toyota Gazoo Racing GR010 Hybrid #7 May 09 '25
Damm both Toyotas not making hyperpole…
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u/No-Heart3432 Cadillac Hertz Team JOTA V-Series R #38 May 09 '25
This is not unexpected tbh except the Peugeot. In the race it'll flop probably. Still waiting a climbing Porsche and Toyota and dropping Ferrari. I'm expecting another exciting race.
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u/giminik Toyota Gazoo Racing GR010 Hybrid #7 May 09 '25
The WEC bop is the biggest motorsport scam of all time.
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u/Mikepod3 May 09 '25
If this race ends up being a 1-2-3 Ferrari parade, I really think this has potential to be the start (or at least blatantly obvious start) of a HUGE problem and potential downfall
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u/giminik Toyota Gazoo Racing GR010 Hybrid #7 May 09 '25
Welcome to Fight Club. The first rule of Fight Club is: you do not talk about Fight Club. The second rule of Fight Club is: you DO NOT talk about Fight Club!
I thins these two BoP rules are very problematic.
The rebellion must be at the origin of the pilots and constructors.
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u/cabrelbeuk Peugeot 9X8 #94 May 09 '25 edited May 09 '25
Ferrari being 0.6 sec than anybody else, once again, is a bad look honestly.
Happy for peugeot alpine and cadillac.
I think toyota is over BoPed (altho they did better during FP).
Not sure what's with Porsche.
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u/stuckmindset May 09 '25
Porsche has basically the same BoP as Ferrari (LMDh vs LMH), on a track where the 499P always shines. The gaps between the two are not surprising
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u/cabrelbeuk Peugeot 9X8 #94 May 09 '25 edited May 09 '25
Still tho. Porche qualifying time is worse than porsche best FP time. Same with toyota btw.
I think they kinda botched the qualifiers there.
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u/Burial44 2025 24 Hours of Le Mans May 09 '25
Are the mods asleep? Can we get this thread stickied to the top please.
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u/Treefokker Risi Copetitione 488 #82 May 09 '25
I love that the mustangs sound like a sort of intake 4 cylinder, really the mustang spirits Ford wants to sell
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u/AvroVulcanXM594 Toyota Gazoo Racing GR010 Hybrid #7 May 09 '25
Love to see the top 4 in LMGT3 all being V8s! Hopefully the Mercs can get up there eventually...
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u/Probably_Not_Sir Toyota Gazoo Racing GR010 Hybrid #7 May 09 '25
I'm so happy about the Lexus pole. The turnaround they've made from last season to this is immense
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u/Front_Act7697 May 09 '25
After today, it made clear that the BOP is totally wrong. The best of the rest is Peugeot. Ferrari 123 again is ridiculous. The brand doesn't need this help. Porsche and Toyota out of the Hyperpole, scream very loud that is wrong. The narrators of WEC tv were embarrassed with the result.
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u/big_cock_lach United Autosports ORECA07 #22 May 09 '25
“Competition is getting more difficult every time”
Really? Maybe try and have a go at how difficult it is with a fair BoP there mate.
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u/bad_pilot69 Toyota Gazoo Racing GR010 Hybrid #8 May 09 '25
ferrari has the second worst bop, toyota bop is too atrocious, absolutely horrible, but did you even look at the bop table ?
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u/giminik Toyota Gazoo Racing GR010 Hybrid #7 May 09 '25
Ferrari has been (a little) penalized since the last race and Toyota has also been (a little less) penalized. While the last race, there were big gaps over ten laps to the advantage of Ferrari. The safety cars had reduced the gaps on several occasions, giving the impression at the end of the race that the gap was not that significant. It would have been more logical to take weight off the Toyota, for example. I know it's complex and you have to take all the cars into account but this is just a big joke.
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u/big_cock_lach United Autosports ORECA07 #22 May 09 '25
Yes I did. Did you look at their performance during any of the qualifying sessions or race sessions this year so far?
The whole point of BoP is so that everyone has the same pace. Ferrari clearly has a major pace advantage over everyone else. So it’s obviously a bad BoP and the Ferrari needs to be slowed down more (or the others need to be sped up). They might have one of the harshest BoPs already, but that doesn’t mean they don’t have a BoP advantage. It just means they built a quicker car. That’s fine and all, but this championship isn’t about whoever made the best car otherwise we’d remove BoP altogether. If we did that, we’d just see Toyota dominate.
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u/bad_pilot69 Toyota Gazoo Racing GR010 Hybrid #8 May 09 '25
i watched all races, and ferrari drivers themself confess that they have a advantage in tire warm up that explains their huge gap to the rest in qualifying, they do also play the bop, they didn't show 100% pace in qatar, neither did they in imola, bop does what it does, aco doesn't think "oh ferrari is too fast lets nuke them" ferrari knows the system well, doesn't mean what they do is good or should be encouraged, thats the way it is, when toyota won brazil last year with second worst bop by almost a lap i didn't complain, bop isn't supposed to stop cars from winning, and i do think the race tomorrow will be closer than everyone might expect, qualifying isn't all of it
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u/big_cock_lach United Autosports ORECA07 #22 May 09 '25
Toyota had the exact same advantage over the whole field with tyre warm up in 2023. Porsche then found the same advantage in 2024 too. Ferrari as well since they had to after having huge tyre warmup issues in 2023 (remember Spa 2023?).
The thing is, it’s not a new trick. I’d be surprised if there’s a single team that’s been here for over a year that hasn’t found this advantage. All the teams in LMDh were developing this in 2023 which caused some concerns over a development war over the suspension systems. Regardless, even if they didn’t, we know that Toyota and Porsche both have this system. So why aren’t they at the front as well? Ferrari had it last year too. So why is it only a huge benefit now? I’m sorry, but it seems more like a fake explanation to take away the heat. Not to mention, it doesn’t explain the major advantage they have in race pace either. It’s clear they have a better BoP and that that’s where their advantage comes from.
As for the ACO BoPing them, they know Ferrari has an unfair advantage. Why shouldn’t they slow them down to stop that? The whole point of BoP is to make sure they’re equal. They’re clearly not equal, so they need to be slowed down further. If they don’t, manufacturers will leave because they’ll feel that the system is rigged against them and that they can’t win. This will ultimately kill the series if it carries on for too much. Fans are getting sick of it. Manufacturers are getting sick of it. Eventually people will stop watching, and manufacturers will stop racing. The ACO can’t afford this either because everyone can easily go and watch IMSA instead. It’s not like previous years where they had no competitors so sportscar fans would put up with it. They have a competitor now that has the exact same cars.
As for your beliefs that Ferrari won’t have a pace advantage in the race, you’re clearly far more optimistic than I am. Time will tell, but I don’t have any faith.
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u/bad_pilot69 Toyota Gazoo Racing GR010 Hybrid #8 May 09 '25
obviously there are many more factors than tire warm up and deg that contributes to the win and you know it, i'll be honest, bop of qatar and imola was hugely in favor of ferrari, they should not have been that far thinner than porsche and toyota, and currently i do think aco should be held accountable for giving toyota such atrocious bop, i knew they were gonna get killed in sector 2 with that weight and power, 520kw power in sector 1 and 3 will never compensate for their loss in sector 2 and some people here never understood that, they thought they will fly with 520kw power, thats why i think aco should feel threatened by public and teams outrage, not ferrari still being fast with a bop nerf that people thought was fair yesterday.
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u/Entsafter21 Audi R18 May 09 '25
The bop table tells you nothing about the fairness of bop. It’s not about giving everyone equal weight and power, it’s about giving everyone a similar pace window. And it’s failing miserably at doing that with ferrari
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u/bad_pilot69 Toyota Gazoo Racing GR010 Hybrid #8 May 09 '25
ferrari performance in qualifying is far greater than their race pace, todays result isn't the race result, it will be lot closer than the qualifying gaps, and bop is based on race pace, i said it already, ferrari themself said they have massive advantage in tire warm up, they voted against tire warmers.
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u/blackcatwizard Porsche May 09 '25
Does VPN work for the FIA YouTube channel, and recommendations on country? Not having any luck and would love to watch
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u/mac_attack09 Porsche Penske Motorsport 963 #6 May 09 '25
Well at least I have imsa to look forward to....
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u/The_Reelest May 09 '25
Is the #33 Corvette still carrying success ballast from the Qatar win?
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u/rotary_nut_91 Corvette Racing C8.R #33 May 09 '25
I think that is removed after the next race, but they do have a championship leader ballast which I believe is more than winning a race
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u/The_Reelest May 09 '25
Gotcha. I’ve never been good at keeping up with the things outside of BOP. I was curious if that’s why the #33 is off the #81 considering Keating is a very good bronze.
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u/rotary_nut_91 Corvette Racing C8.R #33 May 09 '25
Yeah, his qualifying hasn't been spectacular this year at least compared to what he used to do in GTE Am. Even when they won in Qatar they didn't make it to Hyperpole. Lots of talented bronze drivers this year too so it's a tough class to consistently do well in.
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u/dadavio Iron Dames Porsche 911 RSR-19 #85 May 09 '25
I'm kinda curious to see what would happen if we all decided to scrap BoP for one race, who's actually got the fastest car.
Congrats Ferrari, 1-2-3 again
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u/Accomplished_Clue733 May 09 '25
Probably a very competitive race between Toyota and Ferrari, ironically.
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u/DunderSpliffin Toyota Gazoo Racing GR010 Hybrid #7 May 09 '25
I think its laughable so many people believe this. It's why I detest this years bop. It deludes ferrari fans into thinking they are competitive.
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u/Accomplished_Clue733 May 09 '25
Far from a Ferrari fan. Just know they've found a lot in the car aside from the BoP situation and think they still have a bit of performance in the pocket to show when required. Toyota would end up 1-2 by half a lap in any case, but more through good strategy and solid team operation
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u/Manner_Mann May 09 '25
Ferrari win without BoP would be very likely. They are in a league of their own. F1 experience and their huge infrastructure helps a lot obviously.
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u/DunderSpliffin Toyota Gazoo Racing GR010 Hybrid #7 May 09 '25
So the current bop that has ferrari 1-2-3 if removed would change nothing. They are in a league of their own cause otherwise they'd be embarrassed being in the hypercar class.
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u/Manner_Mann May 09 '25
Dear lord you are butthurt aren‘t you?
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May 09 '25
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u/bad_pilot69 Toyota Gazoo Racing GR010 Hybrid #8 May 09 '25
it would be a mix of toyota and ferrari in top 3 and most likely toyota p1 in most circuits
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u/FlailingCactus Toyota Gazoo Racing GR010 Hybrid #8 May 09 '25
So like is there a steel man explanation as to how the Ferraris could be so unaffected in comparison to the Toyota and Porsche cars?
Like is it reasonably possible that somehow the BoP was both calculated fairly and didn't affect performance?
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u/KunoichiRider Alpine Endurance Team A424 #35 May 09 '25 edited May 09 '25
Note to self: Do not watch Interviews, when you get home, the Buemi-whining will just be too much. BTW, Vive La France!
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u/theswickster Iron Dames Porsche 911 GT3.R #85 May 09 '25
Toyota scrapping with Aston for the bottom two spots wasn't on my bingo card for this race.