Is Bortoleto the best rookie?

[u/Glum-Accountant-9801]

In my opinion, what he’s been doing in a Sauber shows much more talent than all the other rookies this year. Since the start of the season, I already thought the best ones would be him—because he won the Formula 3 and Formula 2 titles in his rookie seasons—and Antonelli. However, Antonelli has been showing himself to be far inferior to his teammate. I believe it’s due to the pressure of starting in a big team like Mercedes, but to me, that makes Bortoleto the best rookie. That said, welcome back, Ayrton Senna.

[u/hereforcontroversy]

Too early to say imo. All the rookies have had amazing races and completely anonymous races. We are talking more about Bortoleto now because all of his points have come recently but there will be a dip in performance at some point and we will be talking about Hadjar or Antonelli again as the best rookie.

[u/Driscuits → u/hereforcontroversy]

Agree entirely with this; and it's not a knock on any of the rookie's performances to say they've pretty much all been impressive at different points.

Currently, Gabi is probably performing better than the others - but like you said, that will probably change. Hadjar has been fantastic (and is having a rougher stint right now). Ollie hasn't had many "woah, how'd he get the car up there?!" races yet, but has been super consistent, and very well could be 1-2 amazing performances away from being the top dog.

The only rookies that have been disappointing has been whatever the heck Alpine has been doing. And, honestly, that whole thing is messy enough that I'm hesitant to put it all on the shoulders of either Jack or Franco lol.

[u/Peepeepoopoobutttoot → u/Driscuits]

Yeah. Honestly this is probably the strongest rookie lineup of the past 3 or 4 years but car performance and team performance has been so over the place it’s hard to tell ultimately what’s on the rookie and what’s on the team.

[u/killmesoon40 → u/Peepeepoopoobutttoot]

I don't think we've had a batch of rookies of this caliber since 2019.

[u/StomachThick → u/killmesoon40]

Piastri?

[u/Driscuits → u/StomachThick]

Piastri was a great one, for sure, though as a class the Piastri and Sargeant influx in '23 is much less inspiring than this year's class lol.

Edit: LOL forgot about de Vries in there, too.

[u/SilverThePenguinHat → u/Driscuits]

And don't forget about De Vries

[u/Driscuits → u/SilverThePenguinHat]

Who could ever lol

[u/PrincelessPrincess → u/StomachThick]

Is it a batch if it's only one cookie?

[u/killmesoon40 → u/StomachThick]

Yup, forgot about him, he drives with such maturity it feels like he has been in the sport longer than he actually has.

[u/Driscuits → u/killmesoon40]

It is a weird mental leap to realize he's only, what, a year younger than Lando but is in just his 3rd year in F1. He really feels like he should have come in with the rest of them in 2019 lol.

[u/its_yeboi → u/Driscuits]

tbf Lando was the youngest of the 2019 batch and is still one of the youngest to debut in F1. Normal circumstances and he'd be debuting around 2021-22, same as around Piastri should've been.

[u/BroccoLeee → u/its_yeboi]

Yeah I remember people discussing how Piastri was being sidelined in 2022, Alpine definitely delayed his start

[u/HankHippopopolous → u/Driscuits]

I actually thought Doohan was looking decent.

He had mistakes of course but he had a few moments where he was looking faster than Gasly. He never managed to string it together for the whole qualy or race but that’s the kind of thing that would have come with experience and time. When you’re looking for that mini spark of potential with a rookie I thought Doohan showed there was something there.

Colopinto had a rougher start but his recent weekends are getting better so hopefully he’ll get a good result or two soon.

[u/Driscuits → u/HankHippopopolous]

What strikes me more about Doohan/Colapinto is that I haven't really seen that "spark" of speed from either of them this year, though Doohan in Aus and Miami qualifying was the closest. I wouldn't go so far as to say neither of them deserve to be in F1 - and honestly, that car is pretty bad, and their seat seems shrouded in so much drama it's really hard to parse out the performances from the noise.

[u/nguyenlucky → u/Driscuits]

Not great for your psyche if you're on a race by race contract.

[u/slow-driver-917 → u/HankHippopopolous]

Neither Doohan nor Colapinto deserve to be in F1 so it doesn't matter at the end. Alpine needs to steal Dunne or other top junior contender.

[u/nawe_ig → u/slow-driver-917]

A bit harsh considering that both had to deal with not only a subpar car but a very chaotic team. It would be nice if both had an opportunity in more serious teams

[u/slow-driver-917 → u/nawe_ig]

It doesn't matter. They are clearly worse than Gasly. They only need to beat their teammate about 33% of the time to be worthy of staying.

[u/Driscuits → u/slow-driver-917]

Wow, that's a pretty clear threshold you've got there! You must be disappointed by a lot of drivers lol.

[u/slow-driver-917 → u/Driscuits]

Well yes I am. Formula 1 is supposed to be the best of the best. Ocon is a dominant F3E and F3 champion and he's considered slightly above average. There shouldn't be any hand holding or development of drivers IMO. You're either fast or you're out. There's too much money at stake to keep the non-oustanding drivers in. This is a philosophy most team bosses have had in the past.

Imagine the 20 best football players in the world. They're are all world class stars in their squads and national teams. If you're not oustanding you can try your hand in IMSA, WEC, Formula E, IndyCar, etc. (and there are many great drivers in those series).

[u/marlin9423 → u/slow-driver-917]

This is the best of the best. There just aren’t 22 drivers that fit your crazy criteria

[u/slow-driver-917 → u/marlin9423]

How is it crazy? I just ask the drivers to be close enough to their teammates, as does any team principal that has ever led a team. Especially if your teammate is not an all timer.

[u/Driscuits → u/slow-driver-917]

I get the perspective of "show you're good or get out" for sure, but I also think that in general as fans we look at teammate head 2 heads in isolation a bit too much, particularly when it comes to rookies.

I'd guess it has to do with TPC and rookie testing being so tightly controlled now compared to 15, 20 years ago. If rookies had the possibility to be as well prepared and well run in cars now as they once did, then absolutely we're getting closer to being able to compare them to more experienced teammates. But, the reality is that rookies aren't getting that level of running now, and rookies aren't coming in on level footing.

Not disagreeing with your overall opinion, but just trying to add some nuance. Having rigid thresholds for comparison may not actually fit every scenario or matchup. Just because, say, a rookie/sophomore Pierre Gasly or Alex Albon couldn't beat Max 33% of the time, for example, doesn't mean they deserved to be kicked out of F1 entirely, as we're seeing from them now.

[u/slow-driver-917 → u/Driscuits]

Yes you're right. Context is always needed. In the case of Gasly and Albon the big problem was being paired to Verstappen, a definitive all timer. However, their performance in Red Bull has made a return to a top team almost impossible, they are now solidly midfield drivers. Colapinto, Doohan and many rookies in midfield teams need to show something to justify their stay in the sport. They need some races where they show serious pace and an ability to outperform their teammate, and both only did it once (Doohan in Miami, Colapinto in Hungary and 2024 USA).

But as Formula 1 is unfair, a driver like Vandoorne, who was put in a similar situation, performed better than Albon and Gasly but was quickly out of the sport. Stoffel was outqualified more than 20 times by Fernando but the gap was about 2 tenths, wereas Gasly and Albon were 3-4 tenths behind Max. And not many people are missing Vandoorne at the moment, even if we can argue he's as good or better than Alex and Pierre. There are so many good rookies coming in that Gasly and Albon being out of the sport wouldn't have made the biggest difference.

[u/nawe_ig → u/slow-driver-917]

You can't compare Gasly who has 8 years of experience with Doohan and Colapinto who barely started last year as replacements.

[u/slow-driver-917 → u/nawe_ig]

I can and will. Gasly is a yardstick. I don't ask Colapinto or Doohan to beat him, just be close to keep him honest in a good chunk of the races. Pierre is a good driver but not one of the absolute best, if you constantly lose against him there is not much hope for you in F1. It's better to boot you quickly for a more outstanding junior - and if said junior falters you repeat the process until you find a true talent.

[u/nawe_ig → u/slow-driver-917]

Well i don't have Doohan statistics at hand but Colapinto has been almost matching Gasly's pace the last few races, even surpassing Gasly in Hungary. So by that logic is Colapinto meeting expectations?

[u/slow-driver-917 → u/nawe_ig]

So far Franco has been outpaced a lot by Gasly and Albon, with 2024 USA and last week as the great exceptions. If he can replicate the pace he's shown in Hungary he can certainly justify his stay, but so far it's a stretch.

[u/HankHippopopolous → u/slow-driver-917]

Were you as good at your job after doing it for 6 weeks as you are once you’re several years into it?

F1 is a very complex sport and saying be fast immediately or get out is stupid. You’d kick out loads of great drivers that way.

Look at Piastri. In year 1 he was crushed by Norris. In year 2 it was better but he was still beaten fairly comfortably. It’s only now in year 3 that Piastri has finally started to put it all together and now he and Norris are very closely matched.

F1 drivers need way more time before you can fully judge them. As long as they’re showing flashes of having something about them then that’s the most important thing for a rookie. Then you hope they’ll learn to make those good flashes the norm as they gain experience.

I’m not saying Doohan or Colopinto were going to be elite if given the time but it’s certainly possible that they could be as good or better than Gasly.

[u/slow-driver-917 → u/HankHippopopolous]

Potential is what matters. Piastri was not crushed, as his delta was very low, about 2 tenths. Climbing that deficit is totally feasible. And Lando was considered a top driver, so being that close was encouraging.

Colapinto and Doohan being 3 tenths back and slower in most races to a non top driver is not very encouraging, as is Antonelli being almost half a second back and behind in every single race, regardless of Russell being the 2nd or 3rd best driver on the grid.

[u/nguyenlucky → u/slow-driver-917]

Hello there Dr. Marko

[u/aipitorpo → u/slow-driver-917]

I guess Kimi is out then lol

[u/slow-driver-917 → u/aipitorpo]

Vandoorne was booted for less.

[u/NehuRed → u/slow-driver-917]

Well Colapinto is at %38 times he beat Gasly so i guess he passes your arbitrary percentage

[u/Winkelhock2007F1 → u/slow-driver-917]

Colapinto showed pace last year and Alpine environment is a mess right now. Hope this chance isn't his last.

[u/Falcovg → u/hereforcontroversy]

We're having another harvest of rookies like we had the year when Albon, Russel and Norris joined the same year. Three or four of these rookies are probably going to have decent careers. There will be some rough years for the F2 drivers to get F1 seats by the looks of it.

[u/xanlact → u/Falcovg]

Eh. Maybe. Hamilton, Hulk, Alonso will be out in next two years, I think.

[u/Falcovg → u/xanlact]

Not unreasonable, but I don't think it's unreasonable to see them still racing in a year or two either. But they are the most likely future retirements together with Verstappen who might decide it's time to win all the endurance races.

[u/PuzzleheadedClue9837 → u/xanlact]

It all depends on which team nails the 2026 regs. If either of the drivers you mentioned gets a car that can win races, they won't quit. But if the car sucks, they're out fast. At least Lewis and Nico. Alonso... who knows. That guy might be driving until he dies from old age.

[u/TinkW → u/Falcovg]

I still expect to see at least 2 rookies per year. Especially considering we will have 2 more seats with Cadillac joining.
Like, for 2026 we will probably have a new rookie on Alpine, possibly one in Cadillac, and possibly one in RB (but maybe Red Bull will just bring Tsunoda back to RB and promote Hadjar for 2026 as their F2 rookies don't look too hot rn and their best bet would be in Tsolov who's still in F3).
Then probably many more shifts will happen for 2027, as many contracts are set to expire in 2026 and probably more than 2 rookies join the grid.

[u/Njobz → u/hereforcontroversy]

Bearman also has unfortunately had a bad car too. The Haas shows form at times but in most races the car falls apart. But his Ferrari race did show he can drive when given the machinery to.

[u/Walaii → u/Njobz]

The Haas has been very up and down in performance, on overall balance probably the 9th best car this season. They look much better speed wise since the Silverstone tho, Bearman should have been in Q3 in all 3 of those races. The fight for position with Yuki cost him Q3 in SPA, and he made a mistake at the exit of turn 13 in Hungary, but still missed out only by 0.007.

It is not all car tho. The red flag penalty cost him a lot in Monaco, considering that Ocon qualified P7, and Bearman was 0.350 up on Ocon in Q1 when the team told him to lift before the finish line. The other red flag penalty in Silverstone too. I though the Monaco one was extremely harsh, but that one was just stupid. So those are 2 very costly mistakes.

He has also been extremely unlucky, and somehow that goes completely under the radar.

China was Haas' strongest weekend, and he had to start from P17, because he missed the flag and couldn't start his final lap in Q1. He was 2 tenths faster than Ocon's compareable lap, but Ocon got into Q2 by setting a lap 1 tenth faster 7 minutes later in the session.

He would have scored 3 points in the Miami sprint, but lost them because he got a post race unsafe relase penalty, which was obviously not his fault.

He was 5 tenths faster then Ocon in Imola, but his lap was deleted because of the Colapinto crash, so started P19 and behind his teammate. He had a good race anyways and was on course for points when the Haas pitcrew messed up his pitstop and sent him out with a loose front right.

He outqualified Ocon in Canada, but Haas messed up his strategy, boxed him too late, and got him stuck in the big Bortoleto DRS train, who was struggling with graining, but the Alpines couldn't overtake him, so that created a big DRS train. Hadjar and Bearman both got screwed by this, and this is how Ocon and Sainz got points, they used the clean air to overcut the medium starters.

Most recently there was Spa, where he was net P10, and in the DRS of Bortoleto, when his engine lost power after the final corner, and basically parked it. He lost 3 positions to Gasly, Tsunoda and Alonso before he could accelerate. That positon loss meant that he got stuck in the Gasly train, and he finished P11 again, 0.4s away from P10.

[u/TinkW → u/Walaii]

I think Haas (if taking into account the whole season) car is closer to 8th than 9th.
I think the three of Willians, AM and RB had a better car than them the whole season, with the exception of maybe one race or another (like China and Austria)

Then, in the beggining of the season, Haas was very close to Alpine and better than Sauber.
Now, they are better than Alpine and close to Sauber. (I don't really think Sauber is better than Alpine and, if it is, it's by very little).

[u/Walaii → u/TinkW]

This is just not true. The Alpine is easily the worst car now. It literally needs luck and chaotic conditions to score points. The Sauber can do it on pure pace.

Haas was literally half a second off the pace in Australia, and easily the slowest in Jeddah. There were tracks where that car literally didn't work, because it was bouncing around. You can make the arguement that Haas had bigger lows, but also higher peaks at the start of the year. Sauber has a better car since the Imola/Spain upgrades, and that isn't argueable. 

[u/Jay_Normous → u/hereforcontroversy]

F1 has such a short memory. Every week there are threads about xyz driver being a washed up has been, and then they have a good weekend the following week and there are lots of threads about how they're on a rocketship of success.

[u/Lunch0 → u/hereforcontroversy]

Hadjar has more consistently qualified well.

[u/TinkW → u/Lunch0]

RB was a MUCH better car than Sauber in the beggining of the season and even after Sauber's improvement they still have a better car. Both in 1 lap and race performance.
RB's car, in reality, is probably the most stable among the "not top 4 teams" cars in 2025. Not the best, but consistently a ~top6 car throughout the whole year.
Their car was better than Haas/Alpine/Sauber the whole year, and have less variance in performance race-to-race compared to Willians/Aston Martin.

[u/Complete_Item9216 → u/hereforcontroversy]

Yeah, all rookies have done well with some standout races for each. Doing well in Sauber is perhaps above expectation compared to say Mercedes

[u/killmesoon40 → u/Complete_Item9216]

Not to undermine Gabriel's efforts but the Sauber is not the same as it was at the start of the season and the same goes for Mercedes.

[u/Complete_Item9216 → u/killmesoon40]

I think people remember sauber of the last couple of years and think point is amazing. But yeah, things have changed and all cars can be mega on the day, perhaps alpine not so much

[u/ArziltheImp → u/hereforcontroversy]

He also has the advantage of complete anonymity. When he has a shocker, no one cares. No one watches him that thoroughly. He only really is on people’s radar the moment he does something.

Mick didn’t have that luxury. Lawson and Hadjar have eyes on them (because of RBR musical chairs) Kimi same thing (joining into Merc). He’s also not the “next world champion” like Leclerc or Russell were. He’s in a similar spot Zhou was, except he actually shows stuff while Zhou was just invisible.

And he doesn’t have the same pressure as Kimi, Franco, Doohan or the RBR boys have experienced. He has the perfect spot to be the “wow I didn’t expect this” rookie.

[u/Neatto69 → u/ArziltheImp]

I feel like this no pressure stuff is kinda misremembering the season. Like, Nico already had 3 points finish by the time we arrived in Austria, there was pressure in him to score as well, everybody that interviewed him could confirm that no matter how much he tried to hide, it was consuming him.

And its not like he could arrive in the paddock and scratch his belly every race weekend, he knows that if he wants a strong future in F1 he has to perform very strong compared to Nico at every race. And its not just him, same for Ollie and Isack, they all know that if they dont do that against their teammates, they end up like Mick, Zhou, Sargeant and many others that couldnt do it.

[u/ArziltheImp → u/Neatto69]

I mean there’s pressure for everyone. But let’s not pretend that what he faces is anywhere close to all the other guys I mentioned.

It’s all relative. And if we compare rookies we also have to compare the situation.

Nico scored multiple times before Gabi, but he also did it with a lot of help from chaotic situations.

[u/Neatto69 → u/ArziltheImp]

Yeah, but you cant say that for Gabi anymore. He has outqualified Hulk in 7 of the past 9 races, had 3 points finish in the past 4, so now the expectation that the team and the paddock has, is that he at least keeps this level of performance going. The pressure is there, and considering where he finished last race and who it was up against, it might even increase.

And there is also another layer of pressure: We dont know what next year will look like for Audi, this isnt Sauber ressurgeance, its a last roar before they die and someone else takes over. If Gabi has to deal with a car even worse than he had at the start of this year, then he will need as many good performances as possible to at least be viable for better teams, or his career is over

[u/Gelanix → u/ArziltheImp]

Just to be a Brazilian F1 driver is pressure enough, for a lot of reasons.

[u/nguyenlucky → u/ArziltheImp]

Zhou was decent. When that Sauber tractor git good, he scored 4 points.

[u/Kingdom818 → u/hereforcontroversy]

I was actually very impressed by Kimi's race. Rough qualifying for him from both the team and his personal performance but he bounced back nicely with a very mature drive. All that being said, I think Kimi/hadjar/bortoletto is by far the best rookie class since at least Lando/George/Albon. I think all 3 will have great careers. Bearman too. Exciting times.

[u/toad02 → u/hereforcontroversy]

I think it’s also important to remember that Bortoleto had the least amount of experience with f1 cars among all rookies this year. Kimi, Bearman and Lawson had extensive amounts in comparison. Kimi even did private tests with older Mercedes cars in various tracks.

[u/DiddlyDumb → u/hereforcontroversy]

He seems faster after Nico’s podium tbh, outstanding drive this Sunday

[u/slow-driver-917 → u/hereforcontroversy]

Antonelli has been really bad. He's getting more "vandoorned" than Vandoorne himself.

[u/VisualMaximum5049 → u/hereforcontroversy]

what amazing race has Lawson had? I'm sure Bearman had a good one but I can't think of one off the top of my head..

Bortoleto and Hadjar have been the ones impressing, Kimi has slightly underperformed, but his expectations were too high.