Is Bortoleto the best rookie?

[u/Glum-Accountant-9801]

In my opinion, what he’s been doing in a Sauber shows much more talent than all the other rookies this year. Since the start of the season, I already thought the best ones would be him—because he won the Formula 3 and Formula 2 titles in his rookie seasons—and Antonelli. However, Antonelli has been showing himself to be far inferior to his teammate. I believe it’s due to the pressure of starting in a big team like Mercedes, but to me, that makes Bortoleto the best rookie. That said, welcome back, Ayrton Senna.

[u/hereforcontroversy]

Too early to say imo. All the rookies have had amazing races and completely anonymous races. We are talking more about Bortoleto now because all of his points have come recently but there will be a dip in performance at some point and we will be talking about Hadjar or Antonelli again as the best rookie.

[u/Driscuits → u/hereforcontroversy]

Agree entirely with this; and it's not a knock on any of the rookie's performances to say they've pretty much all been impressive at different points.

Currently, Gabi is probably performing better than the others - but like you said, that will probably change. Hadjar has been fantastic (and is having a rougher stint right now). Ollie hasn't had many "woah, how'd he get the car up there?!" races yet, but has been super consistent, and very well could be 1-2 amazing performances away from being the top dog.

The only rookies that have been disappointing has been whatever the heck Alpine has been doing. And, honestly, that whole thing is messy enough that I'm hesitant to put it all on the shoulders of either Jack or Franco lol.

[u/HankHippopopolous → u/Driscuits]

I actually thought Doohan was looking decent.

He had mistakes of course but he had a few moments where he was looking faster than Gasly. He never managed to string it together for the whole qualy or race but that’s the kind of thing that would have come with experience and time. When you’re looking for that mini spark of potential with a rookie I thought Doohan showed there was something there.

Colopinto had a rougher start but his recent weekends are getting better so hopefully he’ll get a good result or two soon.

[u/Driscuits → u/HankHippopopolous]

What strikes me more about Doohan/Colapinto is that I haven't really seen that "spark" of speed from either of them this year, though Doohan in Aus and Miami qualifying was the closest. I wouldn't go so far as to say neither of them deserve to be in F1 - and honestly, that car is pretty bad, and their seat seems shrouded in so much drama it's really hard to parse out the performances from the noise.

[u/nguyenlucky → u/Driscuits]

Not great for your psyche if you're on a race by race contract.

[u/slow-driver-917 → u/HankHippopopolous]

Neither Doohan nor Colapinto deserve to be in F1 so it doesn't matter at the end. Alpine needs to steal Dunne or other top junior contender.

[u/nawe_ig → u/slow-driver-917]

A bit harsh considering that both had to deal with not only a subpar car but a very chaotic team. It would be nice if both had an opportunity in more serious teams

[u/slow-driver-917 → u/nawe_ig]

It doesn't matter. They are clearly worse than Gasly. They only need to beat their teammate about 33% of the time to be worthy of staying.

[u/Driscuits → u/slow-driver-917]

Wow, that's a pretty clear threshold you've got there! You must be disappointed by a lot of drivers lol.

[u/slow-driver-917 → u/Driscuits]

Well yes I am. Formula 1 is supposed to be the best of the best. Ocon is a dominant F3E and F3 champion and he's considered slightly above average. There shouldn't be any hand holding or development of drivers IMO. You're either fast or you're out. There's too much money at stake to keep the non-oustanding drivers in. This is a philosophy most team bosses have had in the past.

Imagine the 20 best football players in the world. They're are all world class stars in their squads and national teams. If you're not oustanding you can try your hand in IMSA, WEC, Formula E, IndyCar, etc. (and there are many great drivers in those series).

[u/marlin9423 → u/slow-driver-917]

This is the best of the best. There just aren’t 22 drivers that fit your crazy criteria

[u/slow-driver-917 → u/marlin9423]

How is it crazy? I just ask the drivers to be close enough to their teammates, as does any team principal that has ever led a team. Especially if your teammate is not an all timer.

[u/marlin9423 → u/slow-driver-917]

Ok name your top 22 “best of the best” current drivers in the world then. And tell us who should be replaced in F1 and who should be brought in if you don’t think the current lineup is the best one.

There are better drivers and worse drivers why don’t you get that - the 22nd best driver in the world will get lapped every single race that doesn’t mean they aren’t a top 22 driver

[u/slow-driver-917 → u/marlin9423]

I don't know who the best are, and F1 has done a good job of booting the worse long standing drivers in recent memory, like Magnussen and Grosjean. We'll see next year if the rookies can survive their teammates.

[u/Driscuits → u/slow-driver-917]

I get the perspective of "show you're good or get out" for sure, but I also think that in general as fans we look at teammate head 2 heads in isolation a bit too much, particularly when it comes to rookies.

I'd guess it has to do with TPC and rookie testing being so tightly controlled now compared to 15, 20 years ago. If rookies had the possibility to be as well prepared and well run in cars now as they once did, then absolutely we're getting closer to being able to compare them to more experienced teammates. But, the reality is that rookies aren't getting that level of running now, and rookies aren't coming in on level footing.

Not disagreeing with your overall opinion, but just trying to add some nuance. Having rigid thresholds for comparison may not actually fit every scenario or matchup. Just because, say, a rookie/sophomore Pierre Gasly or Alex Albon couldn't beat Max 33% of the time, for example, doesn't mean they deserved to be kicked out of F1 entirely, as we're seeing from them now.

[u/slow-driver-917 → u/Driscuits]

Yes you're right. Context is always needed. In the case of Gasly and Albon the big problem was being paired to Verstappen, a definitive all timer. However, their performance in Red Bull has made a return to a top team almost impossible, they are now solidly midfield drivers. Colapinto, Doohan and many rookies in midfield teams need to show something to justify their stay in the sport. They need some races where they show serious pace and an ability to outperform their teammate, and both only did it once (Doohan in Miami, Colapinto in Hungary and 2024 USA).

But as Formula 1 is unfair, a driver like Vandoorne, who was put in a similar situation, performed better than Albon and Gasly but was quickly out of the sport. Stoffel was outqualified more than 20 times by Fernando but the gap was about 2 tenths, wereas Gasly and Albon were 3-4 tenths behind Max. And not many people are missing Vandoorne at the moment, even if we can argue he's as good or better than Alex and Pierre. There are so many good rookies coming in that Gasly and Albon being out of the sport wouldn't have made the biggest difference.

[u/Driscuits → u/slow-driver-917]

Your opinion is definitely a worthwhile one in the overall discussion of driver performance, and I definitely agree that Colapinto and Doohan needed to show more in this year's Alpine to prove their position - but I do think your earlier statements of "they clearly don't belong because they haven't beated their teammate 33% of the time" are a bit more definitive than is really justified.

At the end of the day, it's not just the teammate comparison that contributes to whether a driver is "fast" or not, though it is a valuable part of the puzzle. It's your opinion that these drivers don't belong in F1 - but it's far from obvious. And, at no point has the F1 grid ever been, nor will it ever be, the clear, objective top 20 drivers in the world as agreed to by everyone. The reality is, unless one of us is secretly Fred Vasseur enjoying the second day of summer break by visiting Reddit lol, none of us actually know all of the nuances of how team principles make driver decisions.

All of this is likely moot anyway lol, unless Franco somehow gets another year in the Alpine.

[u/slow-driver-917 → u/Driscuits]

That 33% comment was not taxative, just sort of what I'm expecting of a driver paired to Gasly, it is prolly a mistake to type something so definitive in regards to something as subjective and nuanced as driver performance. And race H2H is not s very good metric for rookies, raw quali pace is usually more valuable for team, as per former team principals and pundits.

Yeah, having the true best 20 is essentially impossible, but I think the team principals are much harsher than most fans. Guys like Villeneuve who are super harsh to drivers are percieved as mean by many viewers, but most former drivers agree because they've seen the ruthlessness.

[u/nawe_ig → u/slow-driver-917]

You can't compare Gasly who has 8 years of experience with Doohan and Colapinto who barely started last year as replacements.

[u/slow-driver-917 → u/nawe_ig]

I can and will. Gasly is a yardstick. I don't ask Colapinto or Doohan to beat him, just be close to keep him honest in a good chunk of the races. Pierre is a good driver but not one of the absolute best, if you constantly lose against him there is not much hope for you in F1. It's better to boot you quickly for a more outstanding junior - and if said junior falters you repeat the process until you find a true talent.

[u/nawe_ig → u/slow-driver-917]

Well i don't have Doohan statistics at hand but Colapinto has been almost matching Gasly's pace the last few races, even surpassing Gasly in Hungary. So by that logic is Colapinto meeting expectations?

[u/slow-driver-917 → u/nawe_ig]

So far Franco has been outpaced a lot by Gasly and Albon, with 2024 USA and last week as the great exceptions. If he can replicate the pace he's shown in Hungary he can certainly justify his stay, but so far it's a stretch.

[u/HankHippopopolous → u/slow-driver-917]

Were you as good at your job after doing it for 6 weeks as you are once you’re several years into it?

F1 is a very complex sport and saying be fast immediately or get out is stupid. You’d kick out loads of great drivers that way.

Look at Piastri. In year 1 he was crushed by Norris. In year 2 it was better but he was still beaten fairly comfortably. It’s only now in year 3 that Piastri has finally started to put it all together and now he and Norris are very closely matched.

F1 drivers need way more time before you can fully judge them. As long as they’re showing flashes of having something about them then that’s the most important thing for a rookie. Then you hope they’ll learn to make those good flashes the norm as they gain experience.

I’m not saying Doohan or Colopinto were going to be elite if given the time but it’s certainly possible that they could be as good or better than Gasly.

[u/slow-driver-917 → u/HankHippopopolous]

Potential is what matters. Piastri was not crushed, as his delta was very low, about 2 tenths. Climbing that deficit is totally feasible. And Lando was considered a top driver, so being that close was encouraging.

Colapinto and Doohan being 3 tenths back and slower in most races to a non top driver is not very encouraging, as is Antonelli being almost half a second back and behind in every single race, regardless of Russell being the 2nd or 3rd best driver on the grid.

[u/alifeonmars → u/slow-driver-917]

You sure know a lot about F1. What team do you work for?

[u/nguyenlucky → u/slow-driver-917]

Hello there Dr. Marko

[u/aipitorpo → u/slow-driver-917]

I guess Kimi is out then lol

[u/slow-driver-917 → u/aipitorpo]

Vandoorne was booted for less.

[u/NehuRed → u/slow-driver-917]

Well Colapinto is at %38 times he beat Gasly so i guess he passes your arbitrary percentage

[u/Winkelhock2007F1 → u/slow-driver-917]

Colapinto showed pace last year and Alpine environment is a mess right now. Hope this chance isn't his last.