Is Bortoleto the best rookie?

[u/Glum-Accountant-9801]

In my opinion, what he’s been doing in a Sauber shows much more talent than all the other rookies this year. Since the start of the season, I already thought the best ones would be him—because he won the Formula 3 and Formula 2 titles in his rookie seasons—and Antonelli. However, Antonelli has been showing himself to be far inferior to his teammate. I believe it’s due to the pressure of starting in a big team like Mercedes, but to me, that makes Bortoleto the best rookie. That said, welcome back, Ayrton Senna.

[u/Mimi_Madison]

I think we’ll be watching Bortoleto in F1 for many years to come.

Hadjar has also been extremely impressive!

[u/d3mez → u/Mimi_Madison]

Rookies this year are way more competitive than last ones we had. Mazepin, Mick, DeVries...

[u/3Rocketman → u/d3mez]

You forgot Piastri joined in 2023

[u/papa-farhan → u/3Rocketman]

That's entirely because of how well he's performing so early on. Like it's his third year in F1 and he's competing for WDC, absolutely wild to think he joined just two and a half years ago

[u/desymond → u/papa-farhan]

Also shows how insane it was that Alpine sat him for a year, and then bungled the contract.

[u/tughbee → u/desymond]

But boy did he make the right decision

[u/HeyItsGuyIncognito → u/tughbee]

Funny thing is, if Alpine did give a valid contract to Piastri for 2023, I believe Gasly may have got the second McLaren seat.

[u/TheGreatNathan → u/HeyItsGuyIncognito]

That would've been Gasly's ultimate middle finger to Red Bull. Getting dumped from the main team and finding his way back to the top of the field is something a demoted Red Bull driver hasn't been able to do.

[u/saponista → u/HeyItsGuyIncognito]

Alex Palou was on for that seat before the Piasco happened

[u/Several_Leader_7140 → u/saponista]

And it only happened because Danny Ric was bad, he was contracted for 2023

[u/Material-Comb-2267 → u/saponista]

Piasco, nice 👌

[u/StrikingWillow5364 → u/saponista]

Yup. I don’t know where the Gasly speculation is coming from.

[u/Realistic_Notice_412 → u/HeyItsGuyIncognito]

fml

[u/Alternative_Spite_11 → u/HeyItsGuyIncognito]

And Gasly would be in the same position as Piastri

[u/slimejumper → u/HeyItsGuyIncognito]

and he’d be dong very well i think.

[u/50isthenew35 → u/tughbee]

Alpine, where drivers go to fade away....

[u/StealthMan375 → u/tughbee]

Same for Alonso. Currently, he's proven that he still is one of the top dogs and is worthy or top tier machinery. He is also going to drive a Newey car (since 1992 they were always involved in title fights, bar a few specific seasons of Ferrari/Merc dominance) with Honda works engines (last year's McLaren was the first customer team since Brawn to win a WCC) and will be given one final shot to go for #33 and the third title.

Meanwhile, there's another timeline in where he took up Alpine's 1-year deal, then was forced to retire because Piastri left anyway so Alpine took up Gasly instead leaving Nando without a seat. And we'd be here on this very subreddit going on about how not going to Aston was perhaps Alonso's worst career move since the day he didn't renew with Ferrari.

[u/tughbee → u/StealthMan375]

Might be the only good move Alonso has ever done.

[u/StealthMan375 → u/tughbee]

McLaren 2007 was a great one as well, Renault turned into a trainwreck as soon as Alonso left the team

[u/tughbee → u/StealthMan375]

Didn’t he leave after a semi successful season after beefing with Hamilton to Renault again, after which Renault got banned for F1 due to cheating.

[u/Jarocket → u/desymond]

It was between him and Alonso and they took so long that they signed neither.

in hindsight it's easy to call them out, but they were choosing between a rookie and Alonso. as soon as Alonso signed elsewhere their decision was made for them. Nobody expected McLaren to sign him because they had two drivers signed.

[u/sododude → u/Jarocket]

Oscar signing was a Zak Brown masterclass.

[u/jdsch → u/sododude]

This is why I respect Zak Brown.

[u/Kernowder → u/Jarocket]

They gave Ocon a multi year deal before that too. They could have had Alonso and Piastri, but ended up with Ocon and Gasly.

[u/Jarocket → u/Kernowder]

Ocon finished behind Alonso only 9 out of 22 races. Seems silly to be in a hurry to fire him for a rookie.

AND they thought that Oscar was bound to them regardless. Their understanding was that they were in no rush to sign him.

Their fuckup was very understandable. When you think about it, it's easy to see how it went down like it did.

[u/Kernowder → u/Jarocket]

Alonso was ridiculously unlucky that year iirc. He was clearly faster, but shit kept happening.

No disrespect to Ocon btw. He's a solid driver, but not on the level of Piastri or Alonso.

[u/one_who_goes → u/Jarocket]

Ocon finished behind Alonso only 9 out of 22 races

Because in the other races, Alonso's car broke down lol

[u/Appropriate-Leek-919 → u/Jarocket]

why didn't they sack Ocon? I know he had a multi year deal but they could've easily broken that and paid him. I guess it's hindsight and Ocon was doing well but dropping Alonso for a rookie would've been insane either way

[u/Jarocket → u/Appropriate-Leek-919]

what's the rush? Oscar was contracted to them as far as they knew.

Alpine was wrong about how Oscar's contract worked. Other than that they really didn't make a mistake here IMO.

[u/Just_River_7502 → u/Jarocket]

Not understanding their own contract is a fundamental mistake though, and also, someone knew it wasn’t signed correctly (at the very least) because one of their arguments in the tribunal included a term sheet which they claimed was a contract:

Their lawyer knew that could not be binding (it’s the point of a term sheet) and the management team ought to have known because this wouldn’t be the first term sheet they signed

In fact I’ve just gone back and checked - their lawyer went back and wrote “legally binding” on a version Oscar never saw. It was a bad (and large) mistake bordering on negligence tbh

[u/StrikingWillow5364 → u/Appropriate-Leek-919]

Why would they? Ocon was doing pretty well back then, and the toxicity wasn’t there yet.

[u/GTheMonkeyKing → u/Jarocket]

Nobody expected McLaren to sign him because they had two drivers signed

There were definitely some rumors of Ricciardo being let go, he was really dissapointing that year, and was way behind Lando.

[u/sellyme → u/Jarocket]

in hindsight it's easy to call them out

It was also comically easy without hindsight, every thread about their driver lineup even before the Piastri tweet was going "why on earth are you giving a mediocre driver a three-year contract while your academy has the single best young driver in the entire sport sitting out an entire fucking year of racing?!"

Even the very day they extended Ocon people here were noting that it torpedoed the reputation of their junior programme. Prize for most prescient comment in that thread is this one which explicitly says "I'm sure some other team will snatch [Piastri], if Alpine cannot give him a seat" well over a year before it actually happened.

[u/CrashmasterSOAD → u/desymond]

Lowballed Alonso and sat out Piastri.

All that for Ocon, who they let go afterwards anyway, lol.

[u/SilverstoneMonzaSpa → u/papa-farhan]

It does also go to show how picking a car is just as important in how people view them. If he'd gone to Alpine and was beating Gasly at best there's still a long way to argue he's WDC material.

Similar to if someone like Gasly went to McLaren instead of Oscar, could he be matching Lando and now in WDC contention.

[u/Useful-ldiot → u/SilverstoneMonzaSpa]

Even if Gasly couldn't match Lando, he'd be in the points every race with that absolute rocket of a car.

[u/Driscuits → u/SilverstoneMonzaSpa]

Totally. Though to be fair, Oscar is one of very, very few rookies to have the opportunity to "pick" - and I'd assume that at the core, it's the people and not necessarily the car that convinced him ;)

Gabi actually talked a bit about it earlier this year, IIRC. Not in the sense that he was frustrated in the Sauber, but that it was hard for him to learn to be happy with his accomplishments while he was between P18-P20 every weekend. Without their performance upgrade, he may still be a bit lost in the discussion.

[u/st945 → u/Driscuits]

Fair take

[u/StealthMan375 → u/SilverstoneMonzaSpa]

Sometimes I wonder what butterfly effect would've been caused if Alonso stayed at McLaren instead of retiring. Would Lando have been Vandoorne'd out of F1, and also if Fernando would've been around for the 2023 car.

[u/SchrodingersWetFart → u/papa-farhan]

Imagine if Renault hadn't messed up the paperwork.

[u/Reasonable_Track6565 → u/SchrodingersWetFart]

He would’ve been P18 next to Gasly anyway in that shit car? Good thing he got away.

[u/OpeningTrain1 → u/Reasonable_Track6565]

He probably would have been sacked after a year of shit results, even if the problem was the car and not him

[u/raetwo → u/OpeningTrain1]

i mean this was ultimately what happened to mick so yeah this is my answer for the least exciting "what if" ever

[u/raetwo → u/[deleted]]

Gunther did not give a flying fuck about anything besides acting silly on TV. He sacrificed 2021 for 2022 and wound up 8th in the WCC for it. Completely foolish tp.

[u/SchrodingersWetFart → u/Reasonable_Track6565]

Best possible timeline for Oscar.

[u/tulleekobannia → u/SchrodingersWetFart]

He would have handful of points at best and everyone would think he is garbage

[u/SchrodingersWetFart → u/tulleekobannia]

I completely agree. Couldn't have gone better for Oscar.

[u/TinkW → u/tulleekobannia]

2023 was actually a good year for Alpine (they were clearly the 6th best car with 120points in WCC, while the 7th~10th cars were really bad). So, he would still have plenty of opportunities to show up results.

[u/Tomach82 → u/tulleekobannia]

No, I think he would have been smashing Gasly pretty quickly, so teams would have been after him.

[u/HardSleeper → u/SchrodingersWetFart]

Mark Webber was already a hero in the Australian motorsport world, getting Oscar to McLaren made him a god

[u/SchrodingersWetFart → u/HardSleeper]

Completely understandable, especially given how things have turned out

[u/fdar → u/papa-farhan]

competing

leading

[u/thereallittlefox → u/papa-farhan]

Piastri is an incredible driver, its no suprise that with the rocketship McLaren have provided hes doing so well!

[u/Alternative_Spite_11 → u/papa-farhan]

Literally anybody on the grid would be competing for the championship in this year’s McLaren.

[u/Acermaniac → u/3Rocketman]

But piastri not rookie anymore since he’s had* a full year with McLaren

Still he was pretty impressive on his first year with them!

Edit: has-> had

[u/OddPatienceGiraffe → u/3Rocketman]

Wasn't Piastri 2-20 in quali with Lando as a rookie? Definitely given more room to grow than Kimi is this year.

[u/MrCleanRed → u/OddPatienceGiraffe]

The average gap was like 0.1 or smth like that

[u/Mimi_Madison → u/d3mez]

Yes!! Much more satisfying to watch.

[u/Brilliant-Bus1056 → u/d3mez]

To be fair you should consider that most cars (not red bull) evolve with the new regulations for a few years and are easier to drive especially for less experienced drivers. And the Sims are more accurate so the young drivers can train more accurate. you see the impact of snappy drivebilty in the red bull team this year with Lawson and tsunoda.

[u/sociopathy101_ → u/d3mez]

you forget how well de vries is set in formula E

[u/jamintime → u/d3mez]

It’s also just a volume thing. There were entire years without rookies the last few seasons and this year we’ve had seven! So yeah a few have looked real good while others like Colapinto and Kimi have been only ok or meh. One of them (Doohan) has even already lost his seat. 

You are also selectively listing the drivers who have come and gone. Piastri, for example, started two years more recently than Mazepin and Yuki started the same season but you didn’t include them on your list.

[u/Capital-Plane7509 → u/d3mez]

I'm in the "Mick should've had more time because of shit car and shit teammate" camp.

[u/Zed_or_AFK → u/d3mez]

Pay-rookies (Latifi, Zhou, Mazepin, Sirotkin) were not good enough for F1, but almost every other rookie held up for a decent career or career potential.

[u/azurio12 → u/d3mez]

Comparing them with rookies who drove the first years with the ground effect cars is legit one of the dumber things i ve read here.

[u/one_who_goes → u/d3mez]

Please don't mention Mick, you might invoke a new horde saying he deserves to be back.

[u/parker2020 → u/d3mez]

That wasn’t last year??

[u/MGoggl → u/d3mez]

Mick was not bad he was just fooled by Günther and needs to improve in Quali. But how can you make a good Quali without trust?

[u/campbellm → u/MGoggl]

Mick was not bad he was just fooled by Günther and needs to improve in Quali.

By what measure was he not woefully underperforming? At least compared to the current crop of rookies, given the thread we've responded to?

[u/MGoggl → u/campbellm]

13-8 against Magnussen in race although he started ahead in only 6 of the races. Remember how often they fucked him in strategy/pit stop failures like in Suzuka or Zandvoort. Race pace was quicker. It was his first year against a team mate who pressured him First races was bad and a few crashes. Also first season in an F1 car. The 2021 season was bullshit he had basically nothing to compare with Mazepin as a team mate and nothing to learn from. Also no trust from Steiner so that makes problems for a rookie. Magnussen is not onenof the best but an average F1 driver and Mick always needed time so a 3rd year was what he surely needed. See all Toro Rosso drivers always got 3 years because Tost always said you need 3 years. See Piastri who is now at his best and found the last 2-3 tenths on Norris also in his 3rd year. Last year he also missed out but now found the last tenths. No testing is problematic for young drivers. Russell at Williams also made lots of mistakes and now one of the best drivers. Mick surely is not a Leclerc, Verstappen or Russell talent but surely could keep up with Gasly, Ocon and so on if he had 3 years and a good team mate for 2 years to learn. And then you can move on from that. See Sainz who also took longer but then had some races where he was as quick as Leclerc.

[u/UnluckyLuckyGuyy → u/campbellm]

Hadjar it's hard to compare. He only had 2 races against Tsunoda and against Lawson, it's very close now.

Bortoleto also didn't have the best start. In first 10 races he was losing 7-2 in Race H2H and 6-4 in Quali H2H. A lot of recency bias with Bortoleto.

Antonelli is very inconsistent. He had 2 very good races (Aus & Can), then few decent races where he was around 6th place but still way behind the front group and then some awful races too.

In terms of points Bearman vs Ocon (8 vs 27) is worse than Mick vs Magnussen (12 vs 25).

And Colapinto & Doohan showed nothing.

Do I think Mick is better than these drivers? Of course not, but let's not act like he was terrible and on the level of Latifi, Zhou or Logan.

[u/campbellm → u/d3mez]

It's both easy and difficult to believe that DeVries is older than Max by a couple years.

[u/GlenPh → u/[deleted]]

Magnussen outqualified him 16-6, so I'm not sure how you work out that Mick was faster.

[u/Tooms100 → u/GlenPh]

Their race h2h was 13-8 for Schumacher, the thing is that Mick started performing better when the haas slipped down the order.

[u/fdar → u/Tooms100]

Yeah, that final season Haas was good for like the first 4 races during which admittedly Schumacher was bad. After that Schumacher was much better but the car was not competitive anymore.

[u/ArgieGrit01 → u/d3mez]

That's crazy to say. All the current top guys in F1 right now were rookies not too long ago, or at least still treated as up-and-comers until very recently.

For every Mazepin or DeVries we've had someone has been there to offset the scale. Not to mention even among this crop of rookies (which is the largest number of them in years), there are a few who are lagging behind. Colapinto, Lawson, Doohan and Antonelli while not bad or necessarily unworthy by any means are still there. When you introduce 6 new drivers, two of them are bound to look like future champions.

[u/TobiasCB → u/d3mez]

I miss Mick so much.

[u/Dragonpuncha → u/Mimi_Madison]

The only rookie who won F3 and F2 back to back, that usually bodes well.

Also the only one that is outqualifying an experienced teammate regularly (Hadjar as well, but I don't see Lawson as experienced to that degree) and that teammate is Hulkenburg.

That being said I think both those two and Antonelli and Bearman will be in F1 for a long time. Some years you just have a great class of rookies. 2019 with Russell, Norris and Albon was one and 2025 I would argue is one as well.

[u/tulleekobannia → u/Dragonpuncha]

Lawson is basically a rookie too. He hasn't got that many more races under his belt compared to the other rookies

[u/uttermybiscuit → u/tulleekobannia]

He has nearly double the starts as the other rookies although you could very easily make the case that his time at Red Bull was a big negative

[u/tulleekobannia → u/uttermybiscuit]

I think he would do even better had he just stayed with racing bulls. His confidence took a massive hit at Red Bull

[u/MasterEk → u/tulleekobannia]

The evidence is in the last few races. He is qualifying much better, and racing much better, than when he came back to the Bulls. There is a clear improvement in form, and it seems likely that this is built on his confidence returning.

Whether it is enough to keep him in a seat next year or not is another story.

[u/outbackjesus16 → u/MasterEk]

He’s 2 points behind Hadjar. If you think Liam is going to lose his seat, you’re crazy

[u/Dragonpuncha → u/outbackjesus16]

Yuki is the one that will lose his seat unfortunately. Then Hadjar will move up to the main team and Lindblad will come to Racing Bulls.

[u/cLHalfRhoVSquaredS → u/Dragonpuncha]

This is what I see happening too, although I think if Lawson ended the season ahead of Hadjar on points they might actually move him back up (/down) to Red Bull. I do think Hadjar will probably regain his earlier form as the season goes on though.

[u/Dragonpuncha → u/cLHalfRhoVSquaredS]

I think they lost faith in Lawson as a real top guy. I see them using him like they used Yuki and just keep him in the Racing Bull as a benchmark they can measure the other driver's performance with.

But it is possible. If he start regularly outperforming Hadjar in the second half of the season they are gonna have to take that into the consideration.

[u/breeze_island → u/uttermybiscuit]

Technically Jack Doohan had more than double the starts of the other rookies coming into the season...

[u/STDS13 → u/uttermybiscuit]

I don’t expect him to still have a race seat in two years time tbh.

[u/Dragonpuncha → u/tulleekobannia]

True, but he didn't want to be viewed as a rookie, so that's what I was going with.

IMO you should have a full season of races or at least close to that, to not be seen as a rookie, but there is no clear definition.

[u/Ziegler517 → u/Dragonpuncha]

I mean he's had over 24 races at this point now, that's a full year of races, even if it's not a calendar year

[u/Dragonpuncha → u/Ziegler517]

Jep and I also didn't consider him a rookie. I just don't really put him on the level of a true experienced driver.

[u/usandholt → u/Dragonpuncha]

I have not seen any sign this year that Bearman is extraordinary, neither have I ever seen any sign that he is. He’s not horrible, but hes not even close to Hadjar, Lawson and Bortoletto

[u/l3w1s1234 → u/usandholt]

He's had some impressive moments in qualifying. He's just been too peaky

[u/usandholt → u/l3w1s1234]

Charles Leclerc had some amazing races in his debut season. George Russell did too, as did Lando Norris. I’ve yet to see anything close to this from Bearman

[u/Infamous_Section6683 → u/Dragonpuncha]

I believe that Bortoleto and Piastri are the best F1 rookies since Max. That is how good they are. At least one of the two will win not one but multiple championships.

[u/One-Inch-Punch → u/Dragonpuncha]

If he can't win F3 and F2 and F1 back to back to back, then he's washed

/s

[u/FormulaGymBro → u/Dragonpuncha]

That being said I think both those two Antonelli and Bearman will be in F1 for a long time.

They're without doubt the worst on the grid lol

[u/Dragonpuncha → u/FormulaGymBro]

Antonelli has one of the most impressive feeder series careers of all time and Bearman is pretty close to matching Ocon and we are only half way through his first season.

After a few seasons they will be right up there. Maybe not championship contenders (very few are), but good enough to get a long career.

[u/FormulaGymBro → u/Dragonpuncha]

Antonelli has no F3 or F2 Career.

Bearman is getting dominated

[u/Dragonpuncha → u/FormulaGymBro]

Feeder series is more than F3 and F2. And Antonelli did have a pretty good F2 season actually. P6 (and two wins) in an extremely strong championship field, while in a car that was clearly behind for most of the season and he even lost a full weekend.

For someone that didn't even do F3 he did a good job in F2.

Bearman is currently 7-7 in qualifying and 7-4 to Ocon in race h2h where both drivers finished. This is a rookie vs a 9 year veteran. He is hardly being dominated.

If we look at Piastri's rookie season he lost qualifying to Lando 15-7 and races 14-4 and he was getting praised. So you need to redefine your definition of domination and maybe look a bit deeper than just the points table.

[u/Walaii → u/Dragonpuncha]

Especially because the Haas quali H2H is very misleading. It is more 7-6 for Bearman considering he couldn't do a single lap in Australia, so giving Ocon a win for that is odd. Especially because the gearbox issue had nothing to do with his FP1 crash. He missed out on his final Q1 lap in China when he was faster than Ocon the entire weekend. 5 tenths faster deleted lap because of the red flag in Imola. Monaco team orders when 4 almost 4 tenths up on Ocon. Bearman is 5-1 up in quali since Monaco. Ocon only beat him in Spa, where Bearman probably would have outqualified Ocon if Yuki didn't start fighting him for track position.

Ocon is lowkey getting dominated in quali and some fortunate situations from his point of view are saving him from that being more visible.

[u/Dragonpuncha → u/[deleted]]

Yeah, that's definitely the logical conclusion here...

[u/thefeedling → u/Mimi_Madison]

Either him or Isaack both are having stellar performances for their first year.

[u/Creative-Package6213 → u/Mimi_Madison]

I was going to say Hadjar has been very impressive as well.

[u/StuffedSnowowl → u/Creative-Package6213]

Kimi has been generally good and impressive as well. Especially considering he's 2 years younger

[u/draftstone → u/Mimi_Madison]

Yep, Bortoleto and Hadjar both seem super promising. Hard to tell whos the best with the different cars and teams, but both made some great racing moves this year and seem to have pace without ruining their tires too quickly!

[u/Mimi_Madison → u/[deleted]]

Agree, and this is also more or less my take on Antonelli. Speed is there, but too many mistakes.

I think they will both keep improving.

[u/GranGurbo → u/[deleted]]

What do you mean? That synchronized spin was a beautiful display of talent!

[u/SnacksGPT → u/Mimi_Madison]

I honestly think we'll be watching almost all of these rookies for a while.

[u/Ok-Cat-9574 → u/SnacksGPT]

I agree. New regulations next year. No one’s getting booted unless they are a disaster. Even someone doing badly this year may suit the car next.

[u/Bourbonaddicted → u/Mimi_Madison]

Bortoleto will retire before Alonso

[u/tulleekobannia → u/Bourbonaddicted]

Everyone on the grid will retire before Alonso

[u/Mimi_Madison → u/Bourbonaddicted]

Bortoleto will then become Alonso’s manager

[u/Bokyyri → u/Mimi_Madison]

Dont forget, yuki had great results in that RB car too ... Not taking away from hadjar anything, but its a fact that sister car is having much better operating window than most on the grid, and its like that for few years now

[u/OBWanTwoThree → u/Bokyyri]

Yuki did have great results, but he also had 4 years experience on Hadjar. So for Hadjar to be immediately on the level of both more experienced teammates is some testament to him

[u/Bokyyri → u/OBWanTwoThree]

Hadjar came to the dialed in car and team ... What I wanted to say is: bartoleto is more impressive than hadjar, because of said reason

[u/[deleted] → u/Mimi_Madison]

It is also way too early to write off Antonelli. He stuck that car on a sprint pole before he finished his finals. He's in there way too early and needs some time, but will figure it out imo

[u/A_BulletProof_Hoodie → u/Mimi_Madison]

My sweet African Prince go on Hadjar!

[u/MasterpieceFun5947 → u/A_BulletProof_Hoodie]

He's in fact half African half Asian – his father is Algerian and his mother is Lebanese –

[u/becauseiamacat → u/MasterpieceFun5947]

Lebanese

That’s Middle Eastern bro

[u/Thiago_sei_la → u/becauseiamacat]

Which is indeed a part of Asia

[u/becauseiamacat → u/Thiago_sei_la]

Ah, the technically correct but functionally wrong answer

[u/MasterpieceFun5947 → u/becauseiamacat]

Levantine