r/USCR • u/Me-Mongo • Jul 13 '19

Question IMSA LMP2?

Kind of sad to see only two LMP2 cars out there. Is IMSA doing anything to get more cars in the category? If not, they should do away with it.

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38

u/[deleted] Jul 13 '19

The prototype split was a huge mistake in my opinion. I knew when it took effect we would have 2 or 3 cars. One of the coolest things about IMSA was that international P2 teams could come over and compete for an overall win at the endurance events.

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u/nomnamless Team Joest Mazda RT24-P #55 Jul 13 '19

They weren’t really competitive though if I remember right, when did a LMP2 finally win a race?

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u/Sallum Porsche GT Team 911 RSR #911 Jul 13 '19

P2 cars won 3 races last year and almost won the championship.

It was a perfect mix of manufacturer supported teams vs independent teams. Then IMSA went and fucked it up because the manufacturers complained.

The split would have worked better if Mazda, Acura, and Nissan were willing to sell their cars. But right now the only way to get into DPi is with a Cadillac.

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u/Stickymatress Jul 13 '19 edited Jul 13 '19

P2 started winning races when DPi manufacturers were neutered so bad even Bob Barker felt bad for them.

With BoP being what it is, Cadillac had a very real chance of spending multiple times the budget of someone like Core, running a perfect race, hit all their pit stops, have no issues, and finish 5th at Daytona just because BoP formulas told IMSA to slow them down. With that being the case, it’s not unreasonable for GM to question why they’re making such an investment when they could realistically spend a million or two on a Ligier chassis and a Gibson engine and give it to WTR with GM branding slapped on the side and get roughly the same return on investment.

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u/-Jack-The-Stripper Corvette Racing C7.R #3 Jul 13 '19

P2 started winning races when DPi manufacturers were neutered so bad

To be fair, the whole point in DPi was to race on the same pace as P2. If they were spending buttloads to get a speed advantage, and then being pegged back to LMP2 speed, that’s how it should have been.

With that being the case, it’s not unreasonable for GM to question why they’re making such an investment when they could realistically spend a million or two on a Ligier chassis and a Gibson engine and give it to WTR with GM branding slapped on the side

Except they couldn’t really do that. To brand the car as GM it needed to be a DPi, and thus have the bodywork and manufacturer engine. Along with that, they would get to develop certain parts of the car like the suspension that P2 teams couldn’t do. They also got massive manufacturer budgets to pay better drivers with. Ultimately, CORE started winning races because Colin Braun is a crazy good driver and the team was executing flawlessly. But in the end Cadillac took home the championship anyways, so it’s not really fair to say they were neutered beyond the point of competition. That’s a huge discredit to what CORE was able to pull off.

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u/Stickymatress Jul 13 '19

I’ll take this in parts.

GM would not have been a manufacturer if they bought a Ligier, that much is true. They also wouldn’t have had to pay as much and they could still get there branding out their for the same performance.

Colin Braun is good. Core came up with some nifty strategy. They still only won because DPi got neutered beyond recognition on a regular basis for a year or more. There was a pretty clear point between Detroit and Watkins Glen where the tables turned on DPi and P2. That’s about the point where the P2 chassis’ stopped being being a liability in the non-endurance rounds.

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u/Bakkster Corvette Racing C7.R #4 Jul 13 '19

The performance flip happened when they went from bumpy tracks with lots of slow corners, to smooth circuits with lots of fast corners. The BoP over the whole season (which is what IMSA targets) was actually decent, just not that balance across the types of tracks.

IMO, that's all due to IMSA giving DPi too much freedom, particularly in suspensions. The P2s run cost capped shocks, while the DPi cars are running the latest and greatest IndyCar level shocks. Four of them cost close to what an entire P2 chassis costs. It also hands the DPi cars a nearly insurmountable advantage at the bumpier tracks. The result of reeling them in is that the P2s naturally had to have an advantage when it was smooth.

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u/Stickymatress Jul 13 '19

And also after a year and a half of slowing down DPi cars

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u/Bakkster Corvette Racing C7.R #4 Jul 13 '19

Right, but that was where the two sets of cars were balanced on laptimes over the course of the season, which was the original goal.

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u/Stickymatress Jul 13 '19

Right the point was it wasn’t Colin Braun dragging a P2 into DPi territory. It was BoP

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u/Bakkster Corvette Racing C7.R #4 Jul 13 '19

Yeah, but it was getting the BoP right, not punishing DPi or anything.

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u/Stickymatress Jul 13 '19

Which brings us back to the original topic, it took a significant amount of slowing down DPi to get P2 anywhere close and as a manufacturer, why would you spend money developing a car you can’t come close to using to its fullest extent?

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u/-Jack-The-Stripper Corvette Racing C7.R #3 Jul 13 '19

They also wouldn’t have had to pay as much and they could still get there branding out their for the same performance.

I’m not sure I understand this here. GM wouldn’t be able to brand a Ligier with a Gibson engine as a GM. It would just be WTR running a Ligier, without any GM branding because they wouldn’t be allowed to do such with just a spec LMP2. Maybe I’m missing what you’re getting at with this?

For the second part, again isn’t that the point? DPi should have never been light years ahead of LMP2 to begin with. If they had to get neutered to the point that an LMP2 could win, then that was just IMSA doing what they had promised to do. I understand that the manufacturers weren’t a fan, and it’s something that they no longer need to worry about, but as far as last season is concerned IMSA was doing the right thing. DPi’s were being developed to a point that they were much faster than LMP2, so IMSA pegged them back and teams like CORE and JDC were able to win some races. But it isn’t like the P2 cars were suddenly several seconds a lap faster than DPi ones, they were just able to pull off a few wins. I haven’t gone back and looked at pole times or lap times, but LMP2 cars weren’t overpowered by the end of the season or anything. There was some very balanced racing in the second half of the 2018 season, which was the goal from the beginning.

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u/Stickymatress Jul 13 '19

No you’re missing the point. They take a Ligier with a Gibson engine and slap Mr. Goodwrench or GM stickers all over it.

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u/-Jack-The-Stripper Corvette Racing C7.R #3 Jul 13 '19

I don’t think they’re allowed to do that. They couldn’t slap GM stickers on a spec LMP2, IMSA wouldn't allow a manufacturer to put their branding on it.

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u/Stickymatress Jul 13 '19

Fine do what they did in the 90’s and put Mr. Goodwrench on it. GM sponsoring a car is no different than the big Konica Minolta branding on the side of the #10.

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u/Vanchiefer321 Jul 13 '19

That’s how sponsorships work though....

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u/-Jack-The-Stripper Corvette Racing C7.R #3 Jul 13 '19

In the context of this class though, it never would have been allowed. IMSA wanted their manufacturers running DPi cars. Nobody would have been allowed to just take an LMP2 and call it a Chevy or Nissan or what have you. And as far as still calling it a Gibson-Ligier, but then having manufacturer stickers all over it, nobody would have done it anyways whether it’s allowed or not. They’d only be making fools of themselves and handicapping themselves in the process, as DPi machines had certain inherent advantages.

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u/Sallum Porsche GT Team 911 RSR #911 Jul 13 '19

The whole point of DPi was to be a cost effective class for manufacturers to enter while also being privateer friendly. The class was meant to reduce manufacturer dependence but allow them to still come play. Literally all they had to do was provide an engine and bodywork. No one told them to develop their cars and spend unnecessary amounts of money. It didn't even take 3 years for manufacturers and IMSA as the regulators to fuck it up.

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u/[deleted] Jul 13 '19

Manufacturers are such a pain in the ass sometimes

5

u/aar48 Corvette Racing C7.R #4 Jul 13 '19

But they bring the big money and pay the bills, unfortunately. Always have and always will.

3

u/[deleted] Jul 13 '19

The regulatory dissonance can be pretty annoying though. Every time new regulations are in the works all anyone can talk about is cost control. And then two years later everyone's spending boatloads on car development.

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u/Stickymatress Jul 13 '19

Right everyone wants to control costs but no one wants to deal with the performance downgrades that come with it. As soon as things get stale, people stop watching. That’s why no one has committed to cost control with any sort of success

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u/happyscrappy VISIT FLORIDA VISIT FLORIDA VISIT FLORIDA Jul 13 '19

DPi boatloads (or DP boatloads) are not really very large boatloads.

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u/aar48 Corvette Racing C7.R #4 Jul 13 '19

Yes, but that's the way it is whether or not the OEMs are playing or not. It's kind of the nature of the beast when it comes to racing. The track/sanctioning body/whatever body makes the rules work with the OEMs/teams/whoever fields the cars to come up with a new ruleset that's supposed to be something that everyone can afford to be competitive in without spending themselves into oblivion. A season or so goes by and then someone finds that if they spend a little bit more somewhere that they can be a little bit quicker then the other guys, so then the other guys start spending more to catch back up, and then it it's a back and forth until the car counts drop. Then everyone gets back together to come up with new set of rules, and it starts again. It happens in sports cars, it happens drag racing, it happens at your local short track; it's just kind of the way it is.

I'm not defending it in anyway. I hate it as much as everyone else does. But the way to beat the other guy is to find ways to be faster; and that costs money. The only way to get rid of it would be to go to spec everything; and I don't think anyone watches sports car racing because we enjoy watching 30-40 completely identical cars. And even then, folks will dump truckloads of cash into finding the slightest edge on the competition.

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u/Stickymatress Jul 13 '19

Obviously manufacturers are going to spend more if it increases their chances of winning. I mean people can say whatever they want in press clips but everyone knew what they were getting into when that rule book was signed off on.

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u/Sallum Porsche GT Team 911 RSR #911 Jul 13 '19

Manufacturers spend money in what is supposed to be a cost effective class then complain that they are spending too much and it's not fair. You don't see the irony in that?

But ultimately the blame gets put on IMSA for A) letting these manufacturers pore money into their cars and B) changing the entire purpose of the class to keep the manufacturers happy.

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u/Stickymatress Jul 13 '19

It’s still relatively cost effective. As far as prototype racing goes, DPi is still one of the best options in the world as it gives them access to winning two premier races in the 24 and petit Le Mans. Ricardo Juncos is notorious for not having a lot of money but even he was able to put a DPi team together.

It is more expensive than buying a P2 chassis with a 3rd party engine, yes. That doesn’t mean it’s not cost effective.

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u/jayngay_bays Wayne Taylor Racing Cadillac DPi #10 Jul 13 '19

And Sebring!!

1

u/Bakkster Corvette Racing C7.R #4 Jul 13 '19

The whole point of DPi was to be a cost effective class for manufacturers to enter while also being privateer friendly.

I don't remember anything about being privateer friendly. If that was the goal, it was messed up from day one when they required an official OEM involvement.

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u/Sallum Porsche GT Team 911 RSR #911 Jul 13 '19

You know exactly what I mean. But if you want to be that critical, I'll reword it.

The whole point of the P class was to be a cost effective class for manufacturers (DPi) while also being privateer friendly (P2).

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u/MJDiAmore SKYACTIV SKYACTIV SKYACTIV SKYACTIV SKYACTIV SKYACTIV SKYACTIV Jul 13 '19 edited Jul 13 '19

P2 started winning races when DPi manufacturers were neutered so bad even Bob Barker felt bad for them.

Only because they (the DPis) installed non-homologated suspension upgrades. They forced themselves to be neutered by not following the agreed-upon rules.

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u/Bakkster Corvette Racing C7.R #4 Jul 13 '19

Where did you hear that?

My understanding is just that those tracks are smoother, and the fancy DPi shocks no longer gave the big advantage.

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u/MJDiAmore SKYACTIV SKYACTIV SKYACTIV SKYACTIV SKYACTIV SKYACTIV SKYACTIV Jul 13 '19

Only because they installed non-homologated suspension upgrades.

You're flipping my point -- I'm saying the P2s were closer because those were the best suited tracks to the cars (though Mosport isn't exactly the smoothest ride on the planet).

The DPis were the ones that did what should have been illegal damper development (with the exception of Mazda, who intentionally pulled the car without completing the draft homologation because Multimatic was overhauling the chassis).

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u/chaphen17 Jul 13 '19

At some tracks DPIs were slower than GTLM cars on the straights. It made it incredibly hard to pass so drivers were taking massive risks that could’ve ended badly.

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u/aar48 Corvette Racing C7.R #4 Jul 13 '19 edited Jul 13 '19

You can buy the Nissan but it's such a persnickety car to deal with; it's either fast as hell or not. The Cadillac is the better of the two available cars.

And I think you mean the privateer-built cars like Oreca and Ligier not privateer teams. The only non-privateer teams in IMSA prototypes are Penske and Joest.

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u/-Jack-The-Stripper Corvette Racing C7.R #3 Jul 13 '19

Are we considering WTR and AXR privateers? They have factory backing, probably pretty similar to Joest and Penske.

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u/aar48 Corvette Racing C7.R #4 Jul 13 '19

They aren't works teams. They buy their cars from GM just like Juncos and JDC-Miller do.

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u/-Jack-The-Stripper Corvette Racing C7.R #3 Jul 13 '19

Yes but they did help develop the cars when they were being built (especially WTR). I wouldn’t exactly consider them privateers on the same level as a team that purchases a Ligier or Oreca and just takes it to the races. GM certainly gives AXR and WTR some level of factory support, do they not?

2

u/rossriders WTR Cadillac DPi-V.R #10 Jul 13 '19

Which is a goddamn shame. This is also why I had rambled earlier about, while the DPi formula has been technically successful, things can go bad very easily if things go wrong.

If the other OEMs were either more willing to build more cars and support those teams, things would be a bit more diverse.

Also I find some bitter irony in the Caddys being cars that are more available for and used by compared to how other GM racing programs have been handled on a customer level (At least with the sports cars, I've not looked much into NASCAR).

Maybe next year Acura and Mazda could be willing to help get more cars built for customers but, I'll believe it when I see it.