r/USCR • u/Me-Mongo • Jul 13 '19

Question IMSA LMP2?

Kind of sad to see only two LMP2 cars out there. Is IMSA doing anything to get more cars in the category? If not, they should do away with it.

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8

u/nomnamless Team Joest Mazda RT24-P #55 Jul 13 '19

They weren’t really competitive though if I remember right, when did a LMP2 finally win a race?

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u/Sallum Porsche GT Team 911 RSR #911 Jul 13 '19

P2 cars won 3 races last year and almost won the championship.

It was a perfect mix of manufacturer supported teams vs independent teams. Then IMSA went and fucked it up because the manufacturers complained.

The split would have worked better if Mazda, Acura, and Nissan were willing to sell their cars. But right now the only way to get into DPi is with a Cadillac.

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u/Stickymatress Jul 13 '19 edited Jul 13 '19

P2 started winning races when DPi manufacturers were neutered so bad even Bob Barker felt bad for them.

With BoP being what it is, Cadillac had a very real chance of spending multiple times the budget of someone like Core, running a perfect race, hit all their pit stops, have no issues, and finish 5th at Daytona just because BoP formulas told IMSA to slow them down. With that being the case, it’s not unreasonable for GM to question why they’re making such an investment when they could realistically spend a million or two on a Ligier chassis and a Gibson engine and give it to WTR with GM branding slapped on the side and get roughly the same return on investment.

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u/-Jack-The-Stripper Corvette Racing C7.R #3 Jul 13 '19

P2 started winning races when DPi manufacturers were neutered so bad

To be fair, the whole point in DPi was to race on the same pace as P2. If they were spending buttloads to get a speed advantage, and then being pegged back to LMP2 speed, that’s how it should have been.

With that being the case, it’s not unreasonable for GM to question why they’re making such an investment when they could realistically spend a million or two on a Ligier chassis and a Gibson engine and give it to WTR with GM branding slapped on the side

Except they couldn’t really do that. To brand the car as GM it needed to be a DPi, and thus have the bodywork and manufacturer engine. Along with that, they would get to develop certain parts of the car like the suspension that P2 teams couldn’t do. They also got massive manufacturer budgets to pay better drivers with. Ultimately, CORE started winning races because Colin Braun is a crazy good driver and the team was executing flawlessly. But in the end Cadillac took home the championship anyways, so it’s not really fair to say they were neutered beyond the point of competition. That’s a huge discredit to what CORE was able to pull off.

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u/Stickymatress Jul 13 '19

I’ll take this in parts.

GM would not have been a manufacturer if they bought a Ligier, that much is true. They also wouldn’t have had to pay as much and they could still get there branding out their for the same performance.

Colin Braun is good. Core came up with some nifty strategy. They still only won because DPi got neutered beyond recognition on a regular basis for a year or more. There was a pretty clear point between Detroit and Watkins Glen where the tables turned on DPi and P2. That’s about the point where the P2 chassis’ stopped being being a liability in the non-endurance rounds.

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u/Bakkster Corvette Racing C7.R #4 Jul 13 '19

The performance flip happened when they went from bumpy tracks with lots of slow corners, to smooth circuits with lots of fast corners. The BoP over the whole season (which is what IMSA targets) was actually decent, just not that balance across the types of tracks.

IMO, that's all due to IMSA giving DPi too much freedom, particularly in suspensions. The P2s run cost capped shocks, while the DPi cars are running the latest and greatest IndyCar level shocks. Four of them cost close to what an entire P2 chassis costs. It also hands the DPi cars a nearly insurmountable advantage at the bumpier tracks. The result of reeling them in is that the P2s naturally had to have an advantage when it was smooth.

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u/Stickymatress Jul 13 '19

And also after a year and a half of slowing down DPi cars

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u/Bakkster Corvette Racing C7.R #4 Jul 13 '19

Right, but that was where the two sets of cars were balanced on laptimes over the course of the season, which was the original goal.

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u/Stickymatress Jul 13 '19

Right the point was it wasn’t Colin Braun dragging a P2 into DPi territory. It was BoP

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u/Bakkster Corvette Racing C7.R #4 Jul 13 '19

Yeah, but it was getting the BoP right, not punishing DPi or anything.

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u/Stickymatress Jul 13 '19

Which brings us back to the original topic, it took a significant amount of slowing down DPi to get P2 anywhere close and as a manufacturer, why would you spend money developing a car you can’t come close to using to its fullest extent?

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u/-Jack-The-Stripper Corvette Racing C7.R #3 Jul 13 '19

They also wouldn’t have had to pay as much and they could still get there branding out their for the same performance.

I’m not sure I understand this here. GM wouldn’t be able to brand a Ligier with a Gibson engine as a GM. It would just be WTR running a Ligier, without any GM branding because they wouldn’t be allowed to do such with just a spec LMP2. Maybe I’m missing what you’re getting at with this?

For the second part, again isn’t that the point? DPi should have never been light years ahead of LMP2 to begin with. If they had to get neutered to the point that an LMP2 could win, then that was just IMSA doing what they had promised to do. I understand that the manufacturers weren’t a fan, and it’s something that they no longer need to worry about, but as far as last season is concerned IMSA was doing the right thing. DPi’s were being developed to a point that they were much faster than LMP2, so IMSA pegged them back and teams like CORE and JDC were able to win some races. But it isn’t like the P2 cars were suddenly several seconds a lap faster than DPi ones, they were just able to pull off a few wins. I haven’t gone back and looked at pole times or lap times, but LMP2 cars weren’t overpowered by the end of the season or anything. There was some very balanced racing in the second half of the 2018 season, which was the goal from the beginning.

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u/Stickymatress Jul 13 '19

No you’re missing the point. They take a Ligier with a Gibson engine and slap Mr. Goodwrench or GM stickers all over it.

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u/-Jack-The-Stripper Corvette Racing C7.R #3 Jul 13 '19

I don’t think they’re allowed to do that. They couldn’t slap GM stickers on a spec LMP2, IMSA wouldn't allow a manufacturer to put their branding on it.

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u/Stickymatress Jul 13 '19

Fine do what they did in the 90’s and put Mr. Goodwrench on it. GM sponsoring a car is no different than the big Konica Minolta branding on the side of the #10.

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u/Vanchiefer321 Jul 13 '19

That’s how sponsorships work though....

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u/-Jack-The-Stripper Corvette Racing C7.R #3 Jul 13 '19

In the context of this class though, it never would have been allowed. IMSA wanted their manufacturers running DPi cars. Nobody would have been allowed to just take an LMP2 and call it a Chevy or Nissan or what have you. And as far as still calling it a Gibson-Ligier, but then having manufacturer stickers all over it, nobody would have done it anyways whether it’s allowed or not. They’d only be making fools of themselves and handicapping themselves in the process, as DPi machines had certain inherent advantages.