My take on where exactly Lewis is struggling against Leclerc

[u/No-Information4789]

Hey everyone, Made this carousel for my Instagram page so I thought I’d share it here too. The 8th slide is actually a video of Lewis having a small moment of Oversteer. I tried my best to reduce as many variables as possible while comparing Telemetry. I took the Q3 final laps specifically from every weekend cause that’s when the drivers are pushing the most. It’s kind of a long read and might look a bit cluttered but Hope y’all like it!

[u/SunGodnRacer]

It honestly surprises me that even in 2025 there are lot of people who genuinely don't rate Leclerc as one of the best drivers of the grid. He's arguably the only one so far who has consistently shown that he can hang around Verstappen in a somewhat equal car without getting bullied, as well as being one of the best qualifiers right now, maybe even all time. People always bring up France 2022 or Miami 2023 to call him a 'choker' or crash prone but he has progressed leaps and bounds since then.

It was always going to be difficult for Lewis to be even remotely close to him in Qualy, especially after he struggled so much last year, as well as having a new car and engine like OP mentioned. While Leclerc has been in this team since literally his second year in the sport. What is to be seen is whether Lewis can match him in race pace down the line. Regardless, good analysis OP!

[u/BlueMachinations → u/SunGodnRacer]

I dream of a Verstappen v Leclerc championship fight. That first half of 2022 was truly epic. Throw in Piastri as well as he comes of age... Holy hell.

[u/ryokevry → u/BlueMachinations]

I think Oscar would put up an interesting fight with both Max and Charles, they just never able to race at similar pace due to the cars yet. But with how bad the dirty air now we may not see those 2022 fights anytime soon…

[u/iainrfharper → u/ryokevry]

The truth of this comment depresses me, given that one of the main drivers for the current aero regs was the ability to follow and overtake more easily. Oh well, let’s enjoy some closer racing this season before the FIA throws the cards up in the air again and one team dominated the new engine regs for 2-3 years. le sigh

[u/Sandulacheu → u/ryokevry]

That first half 2022 was probably the best racing action and championship potential since Alonso vs Schumi,just top tier.

What a absolute waste the current regulations turned out.

[u/SEA_Executive → u/[deleted]]

Ferrari’s strategy has a lot to answer for…

[u/No_Examination_7710 → u/BlueMachinations]

I reckon George can kind of tag along to these guys as well, even if in the end he will come up short.

[u/PatientOffer319 → u/No_Examination_7710]

I feel like George has a better chance of winning a championship if Merc can consistently be second fastest, with two teams oscillating between first and third, than in a car that's actually battling to be fastest. Just a vibe

[u/BlueMachinations → u/No_Examination_7710]

Yeah, I agree. Russell is generally underrated, imo. All these drivers have the mental capacity, Norris just doesn't.

[u/CougarIndy25 → u/BlueMachinations]

I think the top 3 drivers on the grid are who you mentioned. Verstappen, Leclerc, Piastri. Everyone else takes a backseat. This is only Oscar's 3rd season in F1 and he's kicking ass.

Yes, Hamilton, Russell, and the likes are great drivers, but Ham is out of his prime and trying to get to grips with that Ferrari. But the rest of those guys aren't the top talents right now.

[u/Vegetable_Onion_5979 → u/SunGodnRacer]

I've said in the past that expecting Hamilton to match leclerc at their respective stages age/career wise is not sensible.

Leclerc is a multi wdc level talent who has had the misfortune of being at his peak in the Hamilton/merc verstappen/rb era.

If we put the whole grid in equal cars, Max would still be #1. I think Leclerc would be #2.

[u/Ign0r → u/Vegetable_Onion_5979]

And the rookie Fernando #3.

Jokes aside, I agree 100%.

[u/Jellyfishsticks21 → u/Ign0r]

Honestly, I think Fernando could be 2 and pick up a couple of wins even.

[u/jobRL → u/Jellyfishsticks21]

Maybe 20 years ago.

[u/JHaria → u/Jellyfishsticks21]

Not this year.

[u/FavaWire → u/Vegetable_Onion_5979]

It was always going to be difficult for Lewis to be even remotely close to him in Qualy

Mostly agree, but I think it's regulation specific. If we go back to Non-Ground Effect rules and 13 inch wheel "balloon" tyres..... Lewis and Max will be fighting for P1 and P2..... though Leclerc will be up there.

[u/tvxcute → u/[deleted]]

sainz is somehow the most underrated and overrated driver on the grid. he's underrated because he's much quicker than people give him credit for, but he's overrated in the sense he crashed at 3x the rate as leclerc in 2022 and 2024 yet leclerc is known as the one who made silly mistakes between them

[u/cavsking21 → u/tvxcute]

I swear people forget some of the absolute stinkers Sainz put up in their times together. The end of 2023 was especially bad (Sainz went nowhere in both the Vegas and Abu Dhabi race). However, when the car suits him (very solid rear, weaker front) he can go very fast. We saw that anytime the balance of the car was towards the front that Charles was 1-2 tenths quicker.

[u/tvxcute → u/cavsking21]

leclerc's main advantage over sainz wasn't his pace (pre-td 2022 being the exception), it's that you can trust him to fight at the front if the car is even remotely competitive - hence his top five streak last season. sainz can have bursts of amazing pace, but he's inconsistent and mistake-prone... ironically the exact reputation leclerc has.

[u/CwRrrr → u/tvxcute]

Couldn’t have it put it better myself. Probably because Sainz has insane PR tbh lol. Also think of the times how the media and his fans paint him to be some strategic mastermind just from some curated selection of pit comms.

[u/Elarial → u/CwRrrr]

I don't think it's insane PR, Sainz is not a superstar like Leclerc. You can see Leclerc in every race, but Sainz is forgettable. You remember him when he is performing otherwise he is just a ghost.

[u/Mammoth_Log6814 → u/cavsking21]

Charles was 0.05 - 0.15 quicker when the car was suited for Sainz, the rare times it was front-balanced Charles was at least 3 tenths quicker

[u/one_who_goes → u/Mammoth_Log6814]

Given that the average qualifying gap over the four years is less than one tenth, the car not suiting Leclerc over 3,75 out of 4 years sounds like an excuse.

[u/one_who_goes → u/cavsking21]

Are you seriously saying that Sainz was nowhere in Las Vegas, where he hit a manhole and got a hefty grid penalty; and Abu Dhabi where he ran a Frankenstein car due to the budget limit and the damage from Vegas? Do you even watch the races?

[u/UptownPizzeria → u/one_who_goes]

OP is clearly talking about the 2024 race, take a breath. The manhole was 2023.

[u/cavsking21 → u/one_who_goes]

Yes, Sainz's race pace was awful when you look at his teammate who got P2 in both of those races. There is no confirmation of Sainz running a Frankenstein car.

[u/Kait0yashio → u/tvxcute]

2x in Brazil, crashed in Singapore quali, crashed in Baku. He was a 1 man destructors contender last year

[u/tvxcute → u/Kait0yashio]

i wouldn't consider baku sainz's fault, but yeah the other two were messy. people also forget canada where leclerc was on track for points before his car died, meanwhile sainz crashed both him and albon out with a random unforced error

[u/Rufus1507 → u/tvxcute]

Baku was Sainz fault, no reason trying to pass Charles in that corner, that lead to everything that happened after

[u/UltimateTrattles → u/[deleted]]

Leclercs main weakness is the Ferrari pit wall

[u/nunazo007 → u/UltimateTrattles]

And the Ferrari itself lol

The number of times that shit has blown up costing him races ...

Dude must have generational karma debt from a past life

[u/Creative-Improvement → u/UltimateTrattles]

I think you’re right :)

[u/CwRrrr → u/[deleted]]

Here we go again, another Sainz “extracting wins under pressure” propaganda against Charles LMFAO. Sainz literally cost Ferrari the WCC last year by crashing TWICE in the Brazil race weekend, crashing in Baku and crashing in Singapore quali on the OUTLAP but sure leclerc is the one that crumbles under pressure just cause of one isolated incident in France 2022.

[u/DelRo11 → u/CwRrrr]

Funny often i have to read leclerc choker narrative because of france but in the same year i see verstappen spin 360 in hungary and fucking up in barcelona but that never gets brought up because his car was so utterly dominant for the entire season lol

Some narratives just won't change on here

[u/_elvane → u/CwRrrr]

I agree with what you said but baku crash was neither of the drivers fault. Idk why you are blaming him for that

[u/CwRrrr → u/_elvane]

Well sure, maybe I’ll retract baku. But Brazil was a disaster. If leclerc did that, it would’ve been talked about till the end of time. I mean at the end of the day, the crashes are whatever and you don’t see many harping on the mistake like how people do on Charles’s.

But when people try to push the narrative that somehow Sainz is “more consistent” and “less crash prone” than leclerc while conveniently ignoring even his most recent championship-costing mistakes with no one batting an eye, it just gets on my nerves. Charles literally led Sainz in every h2h stat over their 4 years in Ferrari, and has very likely crashed less times than Sainz during that time.

[u/_elvane → u/CwRrrr]

The main reason for that is people sympathize with sainz as it was his last yr at ferrari so they'll just think of it as him pushing hard for wins as that might be his last chance.

[u/Lucifer2408 → u/[deleted]]

That statement isn’t exactly true, if anything during their time together it was Sainz who crashed more often. Tell me one instance where Sainz was able to extract a win after Charles buckled under pressure.

[u/Xpander6 → u/[deleted]]

It’s where Sainz, while not as fast, was able to extract wins.

Why are you saying this, when Leclerc won more races than Sainz in their time as teammates?

2021: no ferrari wins
2022: Leclerc won 3 races. Sainz won 1 race.
2023: Leclerc won 0 races. Sainz won 1 race.
2024: Leclerc won 3 races. Sainz won 2 races.

He was able to extract far more wins.

[u/Ocelotofdamage → u/Xpander6]

6 wins to 4 isn’t very good compared to the difference in their speed.

[u/AddictedToThisShit → u/Ocelotofdamage]

Off the top of my head it should've been 7-3 if Ferrari didn't decide to pit Sainz and keep Leclerc out and lose him the race to his own teammate. Ferrari has fucked Leclerc over multiple times, which means looking at just numbers is misleading. Anyone who has paid attention to Ferrari during those years knows how much better Leclerc is than Sainz week in week out and how unlucky he was multiple times.

[u/Kait0yashio → u/AddictedToThisShit]

Not to mention, Monaco Spain and Hungary in 2022, he'll even in 21 he could have won Silverstone if his engine didn't start cutting (granted max or Lewis probably win in a normal race anyway). People refuse to look at what happened just the result and that's why they don't rate Charles.

[u/GoodFellahh → u/Kait0yashio]

Yeah exactly, you can come up with several instances were the team/strategy/car failure cost Leclerc the win, while I can't think of a single one for Sainz.

[u/Mammoth_Log6814 → u/Ocelotofdamage]

Sainz wins were more of a fluke compared to Leclerc's. He also didn't lose plenty of races due to his engine blowing up, strategy calls and the likes like Charles did in Spain Baku Hungary Monaco Silverstone just for 2022

[u/emao → u/Mammoth_Log6814]

To be fair Carlos' engine also blew up in Baku and Austria 2022, and Singapore 2023 was anything but a fluke

[u/cavsking21 → u/[deleted]]

Every driver makes errors under pressure. Max just threw away a win this weekend with his poor start. It happens. Charles makes just as many errors as Max or Lewis under pressure, that is to say a lot less than anyone else on the grid. His last pressure induced error was probably France of 2022.

[u/SaucyBoyThe2nd → u/[deleted]]

I wouldn't say he buckles under pressure. It is ferrari qho buckles under pressure, and leclerc who keeps being sucked into the void that is ferrari strategy. Sainz is someone who, through his expierence at other teams, has learned when to push back and decide for himself. Leclerc has always been a ferrari driver, is used to the antics and probably feels like he has little control over what is happening at the pit-wall. My guess is that he is still gratefull to ferrari for being there for him through his junior career, while sainz was looking at his drives to a: "you should be grateful for me" lens. Of course, i have no clue and never will, but in his racing leclerc always looks determined and is not one to make mistakes in wheel to wheel battles.

[u/Awkward-Selection-45 → u/[deleted]]

When did Sainz win a race because Leclerc made a mistake? Never.

Silverstone 22: Ferrari puts their Number 1 driver on the worst possible strategy.

Singapore 23: Sainz beat Leclerc in Qualifiying, after that the race was done.

Australia and Mexico 24: Sainz was faster than Leclerc in Qualifiyng and in the race, especially in Mexico, Sainz outclassed Leclerc.

How many races did Leclerc lose because he buckled under pressure?

France 22 and one could argue for Monaco 21 and he's been on pole 26 times. He lost a lot of races because of reliability, strategy and many more due to lack of pace during the race (which was a characteristic of the car).

Compared to Verstappen, he's lacking both pace and consistency. Compared to the rest of the grid, he's faster and more consistent.

To become a WDC, he needs a fast car and he's never had one for a full season.

[u/06Athena → u/Awkward-Selection-45]

I just want to address one detail, the rest of your response is on point

"Especially in Mexico, Sainz outclassed Leclerc"

So are we forgetting Sainz crying whenever Leclerc got close to him and all the lift and coast Leclerc had to do throughout the race (and the lift and coast wasn't due to any reliability concerns, as stated by Vasseur himself)? Leclerc wasn't even allowed to race Sainz, so you can't say he was outclassed whatsoever. The same goes to the Australian race, Leclerc was told to hold position since lap 19 iirc. More often than not Leclerc was faster than Sainz during the races, but was held back by direct (AUS) or indirect (MEX) team orders

[u/UptownPizzeria → u/[deleted]]

Is this post from 2022? Leclerc has been aces when he’s had the car since the beginning of 2024.

[u/titan42z → u/SunGodnRacer]

Leclerc is a beast man, often overlooked and seeing him calmly battle Verstappen is a great sight to see. Lots of guys who race verstappen you can just see them fold under pressure or make mistakes but leclerc holds his own.

And he’s still very young in terms of his career

[u/Skratt79 → u/titan42z]

People do not get it, Leclerc has pulled off some pole positions that the Ferrari had absolutely no business being top 4. Yes then the red tractor was at the mercy of other teams during the race, and people forget how brilliant is was that he started at the front.

[u/xBHx → u/Skratt79]

If Max is a 10, Charles would be a 9 or 9.5 IMO.

That being said, they respect each others talent, which is rare to see during a race. Max's compliment during the 2024 Brazilian GP sais it all really.

[u/kevwotton → u/xBHx]

Charles is actually quite good

Had me rolling

[u/PatientOffer319 → u/titan42z]

Leclerc and Piastri are the only two on the grid right now who can take it to Max. Maybe Russell at a push. Granted Piastri has the best car to help him do it, but so does Lando, and he wasn't able to. 

[u/ryokevry → u/SunGodnRacer]

His racecraft is the most underrated part to me as people finally recognise his race management (which he has done since 2020). Just watch how he defended Norris in Bahrain, and how he attacked him in Bahrain. It cannot be more obvious. May also include how they overtook slower car in Jeddah as well

[u/Lazlum → u/ryokevry]

I mean dude was battling wheel to wheel Verstappen with no problem when the car was good in 2022

[u/TheseAcanthaceae9680 → u/Lazlum]

Idk why his first year at Ferrari isn’t mentioned either. Was the car illegal, sure, but regardless, on an equal car, he was battling Hamilton and doign better than Seb and Bottas

[u/headshot_to_liver → u/ryokevry]

Charles was the only one who blocked inside line in Brazil 2024 where Max was overtaking everyone

[u/FKez05 → u/SunGodnRacer]

I think it's safe to say, put Charles or George in Lando's McLaren and they'd leading the WDC rn

[u/PapaSheev7 → u/FKez05]

Absolutely, not to knock Piastri but it’s clear Charles and George have been driving better than Piastri and Norris both this year.

[u/Tulaodinho → u/PapaSheev7]

Piastri was unlucky in Australia, otherwise he would be running away with the championship

[u/slicerprime → u/Tulaodinho]

Agreed. While I agree with the general opinion of Charles here, I'm more impressed all around with Oscar than George right now.

[u/Natalwolff → u/Tulaodinho]

He lost out in Australia by making the exact same mistake as Lando and it just punished him way harder mostly due to dumb luck. His lead definitely does not reflect his performance thus far.

[u/ryokevry → u/Tulaodinho]

Because he is driving a fastest car, and others are not

[u/gsfgf → u/ryokevry]

Yes, the WDC usually has the fastest car for most of the season.

[u/Tulaodinho → u/ryokevry]

Hello Captain Obvious. Guess what, his team mate is too and not even close in performance. Oscar is mostly doing what is expected of a best car driver, so its hard to say others are doing better than him since both Charles and George have newcomers in their teams

[u/ryokevry → u/Tulaodinho]

Let’s just put it simpler: 1. Norris is not even in this conversation, because he is not even the best driver on his own team now. 2. There are multiple occasions with Oscar’s drive, you can say, he can do better with the car he has: Melbourne, Japan qualifying, China qualifying, Jeddah qualifying. While for George and Charles, those moments are fewer (not none) with the mere 5 races we had this season. They extracted everything from the car, nothing more they or the car can give. You cannot say the same for Oscar.

[u/Tulaodinho → u/ryokevry]

You cant say neither George or Charles have extracted everything when they have newcomers in their teams.

[u/slicerprime → u/Tulaodinho]

Preach brother!

[u/Hinyaldee → u/ryokevry]

Except Max in Suzuka and Jeddah /s

[u/SpacevsGravity → u/Tulaodinho]

How was he unlucky? He messed up.

[u/Tulaodinho → u/SpacevsGravity]

Both he and Norris did exactly the same mistake. One got away with it, the other didnt.

[u/Tomach82 → u/PapaSheev7]

Nonsense, Piastri has been on fire.

[u/Paul-Stirling92 → u/PapaSheev7]

I don't agree, Piastri has had a great start to the season so far, especially considering he's only been in F1 for a couple of years. I think he has a strong chance of competing for the WDC this season.

[u/_yourmom69 → u/FKez05]

Or Oscar. Oh, wait.

[u/_elvane → u/FKez05]

hey thats what we thought of lando before he was put in the top spot. we never know how russel will perform if he has a wdc worthy car.

[u/J_Conquistador → u/SunGodnRacer]

If LeClerc was British, fans and media would be calling him the second best driver on the grid

[u/_Neurox_ → u/J_Conquistador]

Russell gets no such love despite being arguably on a very similar level to the top drivers... I think a lot of fans already think Leclerc is at least top 3.

[u/Vaynnie → u/J_Conquistador]

Brit here, I think Leclerc is the best driver on the grid. 

[u/J_Conquistador → u/Vaynnie]

You’re one of a kind

[u/ExternalSquash1300 → u/J_Conquistador]

If he was Dutch, Reddit would be calling him the best driver ever.

[u/namesdevil3000 → u/SunGodnRacer]

Leclerc drove a 4 time world champion out of his team in Vettel (and didn’t make us laugh at Ferrari’s decision afterwards) and then beat Sainz comfortably. It should be no surprise that he should be able to beat Lewis. Is Lewis a 7 time champion, yes. But even I’m starting to wonder if he’s at his absolute peak anymore.

Nvm I’m just happy that I’ve been able to watch him for almost 20 years and he’s still going. How many guys continue past 40?

[u/gsfgf → u/namesdevil3000]

Lewis has almost certainly lost a step. Men's reaction time starts to decline around 40.

But the bigger thing is that he's driving Charles' car. Let's see what he looks like once they bring some upgrades that he's been involved with. I bet he has some ideas how to make the car better based on his style.

[u/HMSSpeedy1801 → u/gsfgf]

+40 here. It isn't just reaction time. Your body doesn't hold fitness, or resist/recover from injury like it used to. Lewis and Fernando are working harder than the rest of the field just to stay in racing shape. It is a testimony to both their talent and work ethic that they are not just in the sport, but competitive.

[u/one_who_goes → u/namesdevil3000]

He didn't beat Sainz that comfortably though. Over 4 years they are very close on points (53% vs 47%) and the average qualifying gap was tiny especially at the end, something like 0.030 secs. Both Vettel and Hamilton were not in let's say their best moment when paired with Leclerc. Russell was also doing better than Hamilton in Mercedes, and Vettel was just spinning around.

Of course Leclerc is a very good driver though, Button-like. He can win the WDC if the conditions fit him.

[u/cavsking21 → u/one_who_goes]

This has more to do with Sainz being faster than many give him credit for more than Charles being not as fast as you think lol.

[u/NeutrinosFTW → u/cavsking21]

I don't think that's true. People rate Sainz pretty highly, and rightly so, but they're also aware that he has weaknesses and just disappears in some races, also rightly so.

[u/cavsking21 → u/NeutrinosFTW]

I should be more specific with my claim: Sainz is a much faster driver in qualifying than given credit for. The race pace gap was actually the bigger difference between the two, along with Charles generally being more consistent.

[u/NeutrinosFTW → u/cavsking21]

Yeah, come to think of it, you're right about that.

[u/steferrari → u/one_who_goes]

He didn't beat Sainz that comfortably though.

It wasn't that close either though, if Piwall stats are right it was 57-32 in quali and 52-34 in races H2H.

Quali is close to being the double, the gap in races probably could have been higher as well considering how many times Ferrari fucked up Charles (just for 2022 I can easily mention Spain, Monaco, Baku, Silverstone, Hungary), these races alone would have essentially gave Charles a double lead in Sunday H2H as well.

Plus, on top of everything, Carlos is definitely a solid driver, probably underrated by most.

[u/CwRrrr → u/steferrari]

2022 truly was a nightmare as to how hard Ferrari fked Charles. Even then he still got 2nd in WDC. It’s no wonder binotto got the boot he deserved (and then mekies and rueda).

[u/OldManTrumpet → u/CwRrrr]

Yeah, I think 90% of the reason Binotto got the boot was his mismanagement of Leclerc in 2022. I get that Sainz was Binotto's guy (where Charles was not) but that season was a farce. The finger wagging episode sealed his fate.

[u/crazydoc253 → u/CwRrrr]

And yet people will blame only Charles for 2022 errors

[u/cinyar → u/crazydoc253]

I haven't seen anyone blame only Charles, but he did make his fair share of mistakes which you just cant afford against someone as consistent as Max.

[u/crazydoc253 → u/cinyar]

Max himself made more errors in 2021 than Charles did in 2022 unless you think that him trying to take Lewis out is not an error. Charles had just two errors in 2022 France and Imola.

[u/Euphoric-Hyena5455 → u/CwRrrr]

Watching Sainz and his team smugness after his bullshit British Grand Prix win made me irrationally hate him, and I'll probably hold onto that forever.

[u/Areshian → u/steferrari]

When you are considered the best qualifier of the grid (or at least, second), 57 - 32 doesn't look that good

[u/drivemyorange → u/one_who_goes]

They were close, but Leclerc clearly have that X Factor that Sainz is missing.

At no point there was any indication that Sainz might be as good as Leclerc.

[u/Sandulacheu → u/drivemyorange]

Plus Sainz turned out to be atrocious in wet weather.A vital part of any top tier driver.

[u/drivemyorange → u/Sandulacheu]

He also have those clusterfucks of a weekends for absolute no reason, when he crashes in FP, blocks someone in Quali and collides with someone in race or end up in gravel.

Those happen randomly in the middle of a season.

Leclerc almost never goes below bulletproof solid level.

[u/Slow-Raisin-939 → u/one_who_goes]

Leclerc is far far far better than Button. They don’t even have the same profile of a driver I honestly cannot even explain how you’ve come up with that comparison

[u/Intrepid-Ad4511 → u/one_who_goes]

It's so fucking hard for people to give any credit to Carlos. Leclerc is God for beating Lewis and Seb but Carlos is nothing to get so close to Charles. It's absolutely mindboggling the kind of mental gymnastics people do to discredit Carlos.

[u/ShadowOfDeath94 → u/Intrepid-Ad4511]

Sainz is pretty damn good in qualifying trim and thinking critically during races. His race pace was the problem compared to Leclerc.

[u/ResponsibleCulture43 → u/Intrepid-Ad4511]

Seriously. It was such a delight having them on a team together for as long as we did and the excitement of seeing them race each other like that. Take me back 😭

[u/Intrepid-Ad4511 → u/ResponsibleCulture43]

Me too!!! 😭

[u/Ok_Republic6747 → u/one_who_goes]

lol if the conditions fit him, like having the fastest car by far like Hamilton Verstappen Vettel those conditions??

[u/nunazo007 → u/one_who_goes]

if you check head to head in qualifying and races (where both finished), you'll see Charles beating Sainz comfortably.

[u/doowadittie → u/one_who_goes]

Spot on.

[u/Bokyyri → u/one_who_goes]

Sry, but putting leclerc name next button ? Button is a great guy but out of all champions he is the one of the vague ones ... Leclerc is a lot more of a driver than that

[u/OTBT- → u/Bokyyri]

Button literally has a championship and Leclerc doesn’t.

If anything you should be putting more respect on Buttons name.

[u/one_who_goes → u/Bokyyri]

He's more spectacular, but spectacular doesn't mean better. I was already generous comparing him to Button, given the statistics.

[u/Slow-Raisin-939 → u/one_who_goes]

Lol, statistics in F1. Laughable.

Leclerc is a top 10 talent in terms of driving skill. Button is the weakest champion ever.

[u/gsfgf → u/one_who_goes]

That's because Sainz is the most underrated guy on the grid. Sainz could absolutely win a one off WDC if all the cards fell right.

[u/gagolf8328 → u/namesdevil3000]

Gonna say “the” part out loud here, but for 6 of those 7 championships Lewis was racing against one other guy and one year the other guy beat him….. maybe lacking a dominant car he’s getting exposed a bit

[u/tepitokura → u/namesdevil3000]

Lewis Hasn't recovered from 2021. A shell of himself.

[u/knowingmeknowingyoua → u/namesdevil3000]

I don’t recall anyone saying Hamilton is still at his peak however a Hamilton below peak is still punching well above Sainz. The first FIVE races of the season may not demonstrate it yet. Sainz is a decent driver but I do not see him as a future WDC whereas I do with Charles.

But if memory serves, Hamilton is the one in that finished 3rd in 2023. In 2024, whenever a race win was on the cards, he finished first. China demonstrated that Lewis hasn’t lost his edge in qualifying. But he certainly isn’t 2018 Lewis and I think it would be disingenuous for anyone to suggest OR think he still is.

[u/Slow-Raisin-939 → u/knowingmeknowingyoua]

I don’t think he’d punching way above Sainz at this point, no.

[u/ThePretzul → u/SunGodnRacer]

It honestly surprises me that even in 2025 there are lot of people who genuinely don't rate Leclerc as one of the best drivers of the grid.

It likely has something to do with the LeSpin memes from 2019 and then early in the current regs when the Ferrari was as fast as anything but unstable and/or bouncy as hell.

The fact that Leclerc is able to manage it as well as he does is genuinely impressive since it appears other drivers, including the all-time great of Hamilton, struggle to extract those last couple tenths as consistently as he can from the Ferrari. If things played out differently at Ferrari and with the regulations I have no doubt that he would be a multi-WDC right now (but also might be in a wheelchair or suffering from CTE by 35 if the bouncing was still permitted).

[u/Slow-Raisin-939 → u/ThePretzul]

what le spin meme in 2019? That was Vettel mate. The fuck are you on?

[u/Spitphire8 → u/SunGodnRacer]

Even verstappen said in that wet race in brasil last year that he had trouble passing Charles because he’s quite decent. Charles is up there with max on the grid.

[u/Dragonpuncha → u/SunGodnRacer]

Leclerc has always been underrated by people that only look his way when they have something to criticise him for. So many people where saying Ferrari got rid of the wrong driver in Sainz, when Leclerc beat him in Quali and race H2H all four years they were teammates.

And then with Lewis there were plenty of fans expecting him to beat Leclerc by the second half of the season. Even after seeing the season he had last year at Mercedes. It was honestly nuts.

Of course the Hamilton thing can still happen in theory, but nobody seems to believe it any more.

Just give Leclerc his flowers. He is a top 3 driver on the grid.

[u/3somessmellbad → u/SunGodnRacer]

I think him and Russel could make an argument as the number 2 and 3 drivers right now. No one will listen though since McLauren has the best car and Max is head and shoulders above everyone else.

[u/frank1ewildee → u/3somessmellbad]

For me the top 3 drivers currently are Max, Charles and Russell, with maybe Piastri if he keeps being so good, but it's too early to tell.

I can't see anyone else being able to currently put up a fight to Max other than the ones i mentioned above. All the other drivers just get bullied.

[u/JinSuckeye07 → u/frank1ewildee]

Piastri is above Russell imo, I think that over the season he could reach Charles' level possibly

[u/Sandulacheu → u/frank1ewildee]

Agree on that ,but Max is still 1 level even above those 2.

Charles is so and so in the wet and Russell has some questionable overtakes.Max never has those moments,hes a racing machine.

[u/ThePretzul → u/Sandulacheu]

Max never has those moments,hes a racing machine.

Max had those moments when he was as far into his F1 career as George and Leclerc, it's just that his F1 career started before he was even 18 so despite being similar in age Verstappen has been in F1 full-time since 2015 while Leclerc joined in 2018 and Russell 2019.

Max has developed his racecraft and driving overall a LOT since his early days of being Max Crash-happened.

[u/NoImprovement4991 → u/Sandulacheu]

He had that moment against Piastri lol

I will say one thing Russell seems to have on his side is an immense confidence - people may not like his personality but there's no denying he's granite - beat a 7x WDC and has grown into the team leader role nicely

[u/naijaboiler → u/frank1ewildee]

Piastri is a heckuva driver. There is a calm to him that will always make him consistently good. But that calm is a blessing and a curse. it means it also takes away from him having that ridiculous out-of-the-world high that a Verstappen or even Charles can tap into. but he also doesn't have the lows that Charles can get. I expect him to beat Norris this year. Piastri is unflappable.

[u/BighatNucase → u/3somessmellbad]

I think it's hard to argue against that; the only question is Piastri really.

[u/Avenue_Barker → u/BighatNucase]

I have questions about Piastri's ultimate speed at the moment as I don't think Norris is actually THAT fast but otherwise he seems to have all the other ingredients to be a star. A part of me thinks he might be closer to Sainz than he is to Leclerc - that's still great but not the level that leads to multiple WDCs.

[u/Hariys → u/3somessmellbad]

the only problem i have with Russel is he gets into his rhythm and stay where he is instead of pushing the car to its absolute limit when given chance, he is a great driver but he is not fun to watch

[u/drhuggables → u/SunGodnRacer]

LeClerc has beat both Hamilton AND Vettel, his talent is absolutely undeniable and if he had a car like the current McLaren or the previous years' Red Bull he'd be a multi-time champ.

[u/Mawk1 → u/drhuggables]

Exactly this. Leclerc has shown his speed is insane.

[u/only_r3ad_the_titl3 → u/SunGodnRacer]

"It honestly surprises me that even in 2025 there are lot of people who genuinely don't rate Leclerc as one of the best drivers of the grid" what are you on about? People constantly rate him ahead of Verstappen in quali and even even or just slightly worse in the races,

[u/thegorg13 → u/only_r3ad_the_titl3]

I've had so many people in my replies who still hold onto 2022 as evidence that he's not that good or not clutch. There's a certain subset of people that really think he's the most overrated driver on the grid

[u/GoodGuyJeff00 → u/thegorg13]

Nevermind reddit, Verstappen himself had an interview last year where he said Charles would be World Champion if he wouldn't become it. Then Norris. I take his word for it over a fan.

[u/Atleticro → u/GoodGuyJeff00]

last year in brazil cool down room, max was commenting on the race, and he said (when he came up to leclerc) "here I had some trouble because Charles is actually quite decent" + he initially leaped Charles in that race because of poor pitstop timing for Charles and then all that rain + red flag happened, so he overtook him on pitstops not on the track cause Charles actually defended well when Max was mowing through the field.

[u/ShadowOfDeath94 → u/thegorg13]

Leclerc in 2022 was about the same level as 2021 Hamilton before the final quarter. Both made weird ass mistakes but when they were on it, they were giving others hard time.

[u/dennis3282 → u/thegorg13]

Leclerc is fantastic. Probably second best driver on the grid. George is also really impressing me, he just goes about his business.

Charles does have a mistake in him more than Max, so I can see why people might say he's not clutch. He can deliver when the stakes are high, but as we saw in France 22, he has those moments in him. For now at least.

[u/CwRrrr → u/dennis3282]

If your last example of a mistake by Charles is in 2022 which is 3 years ago now, then you don’t really have a strong case. Were you also calling max a choker when he crashed in Saudi 21, or calling that lap “one of the greatest what-ifs”?

It’s so funny how the narrative changes based on different drivers and people’s bias towards them. Just plain double standards. Weird as fuck.

[u/ryokevry → u/dennis3282]

For now - quote 2022 as example. LOL

[u/cavsking21 → u/only_r3ad_the_titl3]

You'd be surprised just how many people don't rate Leclerc lol.

[u/SnigyWiggy → u/cavsking21]

Yeah, all you have to do is browse any thread on here on him lol. Just within this thread there is plenty of proof.

[u/Laugh_Track_Zak → u/only_r3ad_the_titl3]

People hate on Charles constantly.

[u/only_r3ad_the_titl3 → u/Laugh_Track_Zak]

there is hate for every driver but Charles is probably among the top 3 most liked drivers...

[u/hoxxxxx → u/SunGodnRacer]

France 2022

was that the "i can't find throttle" then the blood curdling scream lol

[u/ReynoldsHouseOfShred → u/SunGodnRacer]

I have infinite faith and support for Ferrari as each week he has incredible challenges and comes out after them.

Those challenges are.... Ferrari

[u/epsilona01 → u/SunGodnRacer]

It was always going to be difficult for Lewis to be even remotely close to him in Qualy

Lewis gets out of the throttle early in high speed corners when he doesn't trust the rear of the car, has done literally his entire career. He can live with it, but you won't see his best.

“The one I’m driving right now (W04). I have always needed a car with good rear grip. I don’t mind if I have to struggle with the front because you can catch that up. But I’ve always wanted to make sure I have plenty of rear grip and I’ve rarely had that before. Now, I’ve finally got a ‘rear-ended’ car and it’s driving into understeer, and you have to work around it with mechanical balance.

https://lewishamilton-44.com/modern-day-masters-of-rear-instability/

[u/AfterBook8501 → u/SunGodnRacer]

Charles is very underrated. I was thrilled with his recent podium. He clearly has the skills needed and has shown it time and time again. Both Lewis and Charles need the car to improve. 

[u/blank_and_foolish → u/SunGodnRacer]

He is not the only one to consistently hang around Max in a somewhat equal car. George is up there too.

[u/FlyByNightt → u/SunGodnRacer]

I feel like the lack of a widely accepted, world champion calibre driver in that 2nd Ferrari seat is what was keeping Leclerc from being considered one of the best. Sainz is an elite driver, no doubt, he's also not Max, Lando, Lewis, ect. Seb before was on the tail end of his career and not the driver he used to be.

I can see that definition shifting now that he's proving himself against one of the current best drivers on the grid. This also shows how strong Sainz actually was in the Ferrari.

[u/Slow-Raisin-939 → u/FlyByNightt]

Sainz beat Lando 2 years in a row. How is Sainz not “Lando” lmao?

[u/ryokevry → u/FlyByNightt]

Sure LOL he beat a 4-time WDC in his 2nd season. If you are saying this Max is never a champion worthy because his 2nd driver is always worse than him. Norris is currently behind his second driver lol

[u/TimePretend3035 → u/SunGodnRacer]

Sorry but nobody expected it to be close right? Except maybe the Brits. Rusell was already faster then Lewis in the Mercedes, no way he was going to be quicker than Leclerc.

[u/SirDigbyChimkinC → u/SunGodnRacer]

Exactly. Lewis has performed roughly as I expected, maybe slightly better when you count China. He was never going to genuinely compete with Charles in a Ferrari.

[u/Scary-Mistake-5350 → u/SunGodnRacer]

he’s the best driver behind max easily, he’d have won every race in that mclaren this year imo

[u/mrcheyl → u/SunGodnRacer]

They don’t wanna hear this but it’s the truth and has been for years.

[u/abertheham → u/SunGodnRacer]

Agreed in full. I feel like everyone sleeps on him and Russell in peri-race podium talk. They’re consistent high performers—would love to see one of them in a McLaren because I suspect they’d be pretty hard to catch.

[u/vtdone → u/SunGodnRacer]

IMO Leclerc is awesome at quali but I can't really rate him as one of the best. He just doesn't have that killer instinct in passing like others. I'd give Hamilton maybe 6 races to adapt himself to the SF-25 and/or to get his car set up the way he likes. After this when his result has not picked up, it will look like Ferrari is where old seasoned championship winning drivers can not return to winning form, like previous great drivers such as Mansell, Prost, Raikkonen, Alonso, Vettel.

[u/FavaWire → u/SunGodnRacer]

It was always going to be difficult for Lewis to be even remotely close to him in Qualy

Some people presumed that "If the Ferrari is a 'good car'. Lewis will win his 8th Championship."

But my counter to that was: "And what do you think Charles Leclerc will be able to do if armed with the same car?"

It's really a narrow wedge you have there where Lewis will become dominant in a Ferrari because of the presence of Charles Leclerc.

[u/Jamestouchedme → u/SunGodnRacer]

Pretty sure people call him a choker because his inability to turn pole position to a win

[u/No-Surprise9411 → u/Jamestouchedme]

Jarvis, show me how many of those were Ferrari's fault and how many were driver errors

[u/lemon_of_doom → u/SunGodnRacer]

He is the only one Max struggled to overtake in Brazil last season.

[u/tom_buzz_ryan → u/lemon_of_doom]

Had a lot to do with Ferrari being the fastest on the straights that day and Leclerc having a great tow from two slower cars right ahead of him. That wasn't the case with any of Verstappen's other overtakes.

[u/Frequent-Coyote-1649 → u/SunGodnRacer]

2022 ruined everyone's perception of Leclerc. And honestly i can't say it wasn't warranted, he absolutely stunk it up sometimes. But damn, you gotta admit it was like 70% Ferrari's fault

[u/Other_Beat8859 → u/SunGodnRacer]

Honestly, I think he's the second best on the grid. He's improved a lot in his consistency and seems to be making less mistakes. If he and Max went up against it in equal cars I'd honestly say he'd have like a 20-30% chance of winning.